Hacked off with the Haka (772)
- 24 Sep 07, 05:15 PM
This may be the quickest and perhaps least professional blog ever to hit the web but there are valid reasons.
Since I had to check my lap-top in with the rest of my luggage, I am left tapping away at one of those internet kiosks where you pile in coins (which are short).
You have to work as furiously as you can, while your time left, your money and possibly your life quietly slip away in the bottom right hand corner of the screen.
I am also encircled by one of the longest check-in queues I have ever seen, consisting almost entirely of All Black supporters - the army of is on the march again.
They don't sing and aren't drunk. They just stand grim and stony-faced.
Frustrated perhaps at the fact that a family has chosen the front of the queue to re-pack all five of their cases.
Perhaps also that .
You see, that little Ronnie Corbett-esque diversion has just cost me 24 pence and over two minutes of precious time.
So I'll get straight to the point.
The game between New Zealand and Scotland was as close to pointless as you're going to get, a point my colleague Phil Harlow has covered in depth elsewhere on this blog, but there is one thing I would like to raise.
.
I have said for a while (and heard it said by plenty of others) that the All Blacks should not be allowed to perform the Haka after the anthems.
I love the sight and sound of the Haka but should they always have the final say, psychologically, before kick-off? As if they need it.
They certainly shouldn't get offended if opposing teams choose to face it in their own way, ignore it, throw a blade of grass in the wrong direction or request, as the Welsh did, that they might be allowed to respond with their own anthem.
And they lose any argument they have for doing it on the grounds that it is traditional when they perform , thankfully without the throat slitting gesture, as they did once again at Murrayfield.
What, so now you're allowed to perform any choreographed routine before the game? I look forward to the Lambada from and George Chuter.
I also look forward to plenty of disagreement from All Black supporters. If they ever get to check-in.
There. Done it. And just before my money ran out - this has cost me six quid.
Ah, there's an hour delay to my flight...
Andrew Cotter is a 91热爆 Sport commentator specialising in rugby union and golf. He is covering Scotland at the World Cup for Radio 5live and you can see the station's full broadcast schedule here.
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No I'm not hacked of with the haka I enjoy watching it. I believe that this rugby tradition should be kept only thing that worries me is that the English might do a morris dance or the Scots a jig around claymores. People like the haka let it continue
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Actually, why do we bother with the anthems, either? They just delay the astart of the game in an effort to crank up the nationalist fervour a bit. frankly, either it's a big gameor it isn't and national anthems aren't going to make, say, Tonga US a big game or stop NZ-Australia from being a big game, so why bother?
Plus England have the most boring, tedious song ever droned as their anthem. I suggest that they practice while all this is going on - they do need it, after all. NZ can do a bit of native dancing to pass the time, but the rest of us have catching up to do.
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Have to agree whole-heartedly about your sentiments over the Haka. The Kiwis can't argue that it's traditional anymore as they have completely changed it. Thankfully they have dropped the repugnant throat-slitting gesture that originally went with this new one!
If the All Blacks are going to rely on the old 'It was how we traditionally challenged our enemies' line perhaps the Scots could have replied in kind. My understanding is that the Scots traditional challenge before battle was to lift their kilts and expose their wedding tackle and then their rear ends to their enemies.
Come to think of it that would have certainly livened up Sunday's meeting!
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How refreshing to read Andrew Cotter's comments re the NZ Haka. It has become an issue that is politically incorrect to criticise.
Whatever the original context for the Haka, it was not intended for the rugby field. It should be respected as a part of that land's culture and no more. Is the Haka performed before NZ play international cricket? Possibly Ireland should take something from Riverdance; that was based on Irish tradition and mythology dating back at least as far as the Haka. What is good for one nation has to be open for all who feel the need to exhibit the national identity. As for NZ, how they play rugby displays their identity.
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Totally agree with you about the Hakka, its a war challenge, to the death, not very sportsmanlike especially the throat slitting.
I suggest the English do a morris dance, the Irish Riverdance and the scottish well line up in their kilts and .........
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At last someone who feels as I do that New Zealand (or anyone else) shouldn鈥檛 be allowed the extra advantage of the 鈥楬aga鈥 or the extra song to get at your rivals.
It鈥檚 very unfair as the rivals just have to stand and watch. If they respond in any way it鈥檚 deemed as 鈥榰nsportmanslike鈥. Crap! NZ and the rest should only be allowed their National Anthem.
Who wants to see grown men behaving like toads anyway!
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I agree. I think the Haka is fabulous to watch if you are a neutral but surely the opposition should have a right of reply?
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You raise a valid point sir. I often wonder if England or any of the other home nations were to respond with a "traditional" dance to haka; then what would it be? I get the feeling the Scotish, Welsh and Irish could probably come up with rousingly celtic and defiant in the face of throat slitting and aggressive grass throwing.
England, however could probably and at a push respond with... the Morris Dance- a load of middle aged men with bells on their knees waving hankies in your face. Don't know about anyone else but it scares the hell out of me...
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I wouldn't want to see the end of the Haka, I have always enjoyed watching it.
I do agree though that they should take no offence at teams responded however they wish. I would like to see more teams walk right up to them, effectivley answering the challenge, rather than just sit back and watch.
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I agree with you on this one... how can you have a "new" traditional item!
Having the last word before the start of the game is a big psychological advantage and one that teams of late have tried to minimise by leaving tracksuits on to watch it...
It is traditional and as such deserves inclusiong, but if it is changed then others should be allowed to modifuy their pre-match routine too... George Chuter and Andrew Sheridon get ready..
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With all due respect, i do not think you know as much about rugby as you claim and even if you do then this blog is a tad controversial and insulting to the NZ. You may know the players rules etc but surely any ex player and genuine rugby lover will know the tradition of the haka is something that goes side the anthems. If you say get rid of the haka, why not get rid of anthems full stop. I love going to watch NZ and the unbelievable rugby aside (which no European teams have produced thus far) the haka is something i have grown to love.
It gets the players and fans fired up, which is quite useful as rugby is a physical game (something which the current English team seem to have forgot)
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I agree entirely with your comments on the Haka. Can anybody tell me just WHY you must respect it? The latest version looks to the neutral to be a very threatening set of gestures that simply deserves any reaction it gets. BTW how many actual Maoris are there in New Zealand squad (as opposed to Samoans, Tongans, Fijians etc.)?
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I agree, I think England should be able to do a Morris dance before each game, it would be great imagine how embarrassed the allblacks would be! Morris dancing is far superior.
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Andrew my commiserations on your travails with the flights.Stay calm breathe deeply and levitate.If nothing else you will be arrested and thrown out of the country. No flight delays when this is the order of the day,methinks.
The Haka is,without question one of the biggest scams in world sport.The All Blacks didn't know a Haka from the hokey cokey until a few years ago when they decide that NZ actually encompassed most of the Southern Pacific Islands and in order to seem authentic and non-poaching they beefed up the haka with the help of a few Maori players in the national squad. There is actual footage of the All Black haka circa 1968 where the New Zealanders are actually laughing at their own ineptitude in performing this All Black "tradition"
Campese had the right idea just go to the other end of the field and continue with your pre match preperations.
Ban the Haka I cry, no doubt in vain.
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Maybe the England team could do the Conga or even better a chorus of "Who are ya Who are ya Who are ya!"
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I agree. I think the Haka is fabulous to watch if you are a neutral but surely the opposition should have a right of reply?
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In days before the massive coverage that international rugby now receives, the haka was a novelty and enjoyed by most when viewed for the first time. We are all now extremely familiar (and jaded) by it. As such it is now employed as a form of intimidation rather than a demonstration of native culture. I agree that the Haka (and its derivatives) need either to be discontinued or only performed on specific ocassions (such as winning the RWC!).
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As a Welshman, I disagree completely with your suggestion that the Haka should be responded to! The AB's have been the dominant force in world rugby for many, many years!! Do you actually think that this is because the Haka has given them such an advantage over the years? I think not!! They have consistently been the best side in the world because of their hunger to beat any side in their way, the intense conditioning and training they get, excellent coaching and fantastic individual talent! The Fijians, Samoans and Tongans perform their own challenge, but are nowhere near as succesful as their neighbours.
It is a great spectable and the only disappointment for me is thhe fact that they now consistently use the "new" Haka instead of the traditional Haka which is a pleasure to see and would be an absolute honour to face!!
Keep it up AB's!!
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Funny how no-one complains about the Samoan, Fijian and Tongan hakas.
Is this because none of these sides is expected to win, so whether they gain a psychological advantage from doing a haka is irrelevant?
Personally, I think opposition sides should be able to respond to the NZ haka. They're demanding we respect their culture, so they should be prepared to respect the culture of (in my case) 70,000 fellow Welshmen and listen to us sing our hearts out.
But then that's the tricky thing about respect, it cuts both ways - to deserve it, you need to earn it.
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I agree with you entirely. Can anybody tell me WHY you should show respect for such a provocative dance?
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What happens when they face Samoa who want to perform their version of it? Will they throw their toys out of the pram then if they don't get the last word.
Not sure about dropping the Haka, but certainly should be anthem or Haka - NOT BOTH!
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With you 100% on this one. Its just another case of NZ getting their way & everyone else being too afraid to stand up to them. Why should the Haka (or any of the other Pacific Island 'dances' for that matter) be performed last, especially away from home.
To make matters worse opposing teams are prevented from doing anything to respond to the challenge that the Haka throws down. Why I wonder ?
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In days before the massive coverage that international rugby now receives, the haka was a novelty and enjoyed by most when viewed for the first time. We are all now extremely familiar (and jaded) by it. As such it is now employed as a form of intimidation rather than a demonstration of native culture. I agree that the Haka (and its derivatives) need either to be discontinued or only performed on specific ocassions (such as winning the RWC!).
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I can see it now, two lines abreast, dressed in coats the colour of blood, muskets aimed. Capt. Lawrence D. shouts his command, "FIRE". It would be the last time we would witness the Haka and maybe England would win. What a thrill that would be.
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I heard that the Aussies get over the haka by reciting "Humpty Dumpty" to themselves at the same cadence as it's delivered. Lost all respect for the All Blacks following on from that "tackle" on O'Driscoll in the Lions tour. Let's hope the Argies beat Ireland, then pit the French against the AB's, and surprise them with a real contest for a change.
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What happens when NZ play Samoa - who gets "last go" at the haka?
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More of a fad than a tradition in the greater scheme of things.NZ are a bit precious about this prematch ritual which has never yet been successfully carried out by their water-polo team.
Quaint fad from the amateur days that has no place in Pro sport.Anyway as most of their team are from the islands surely more apprpriate to do Samoan/Tongan/Fijian jig???
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Its strange that everybody suddenly has a problem with New Zealand doing their 'haka' but nobody has a problem or even mentions Fiji, Samoa and Tonga doing their's (which in my opinion are more agressive than the all blacks)
The haka is a fantastic thing to watch and a great bit of theatre before kick off (I was in the Millenium Stadium back in November and i was absolutely gutted that i didnt see it performed on the pitch, and judging by the chanting so were 75,000 other welsh people)
All this rubbish about it firing them up and intimidating the opposition, as Brian Moore once said 'If you're intimidated by the haka then you shouldn't be out there facing it' (or something along those lines anyway)
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Well said Andrew, the haka's time is past, not least because the All Blacks have become so precious about it. If we must put up with it, why don't opposing teams follow the example of the Irish team of about 20 years ago (captained by Willie Anderson of Argentinian flag-stealing fame) and link arms and walk slowly ever closer to the All Blacks as they go through their ballet-dancing routine. It didn't half wind them up I can tell you.
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Am i glad others feel the same about this soft routine the all blacks do before every game !!
the welsh had the rite idea they wanted to respond with their own nationl anthem but the kiwis threw their teddy out the pram and said they couldnt , so apparently they performed it in the dressin room !
I1d like to see the oppositon turn away and discuss team tactics or warm up the other end of the pitch.
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Get over it. The Haka is part of the international game.
The 'Kamate' haka was better and more parcipitative than the current chant, but it's not our party and we can't cry if we want to.
I am an England man through and through and I wish people would stop whining about the Haka and start concentrating on the fact that our team is a pathetic bunch of hapless schoolgurls compared to the current All-Blacks.
If you want to comment on something, try the absurd design of England's kit, or the fact that most of our best players were knackered out of the tournament before it even started.
Getting at the Haka is like complaining about the mosquitos on holiday - they won't go away and they don't care what one says.
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In spite of the fact that I am British, I believe that the Haka is a tradition that the majority of rugby fans enjoy watching. It adds a different dimension to the game, and is a treat to watch for everybody - neutral, Kiwi or neither. International rugby, as with all sport, is brilliant because of the national pride and the honour of representing your country, a remarkable accomplishment. The National anthems, and the Haka, are in the very spirit of the international game, and with their abolition would go the heart and soul of International rugby, scrapping not only the tradition of national anthems and the Haka, but also the pride and honour which has been deep at the heart of International rugby since its inception.
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how can u get "hacked off" with the haka. its a traditional spectacle that any decent sports fan should relish the opportunity to watch. if u dont want to see it dont watch it.its something to see and something that means a lot to the players performing it, why should they lose out because a minority want rid of it. by the way its not only the all blacks that perform it, the pacific isles, fiji tonga samoa all have some version of a war dance before a game and will they be banned as well. the haka adds to the mystique of the all blacks and goes some way to to make them the lengends they are on the field. o and one last thing the throat slittig gesture has only been performed towards sides that have offended them or ridiculed them like the aussies who made an advert with the all blacks doing the haka with handbags and the throat slit was a response to that not a general threat to all other teams. leave the all blacks and their haka to it.
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but is it really part of the game to give one team an unfair advantage before the game even starts? it is a war dance for heaven sake, designed to intimidate the opponents. it is quite agressive and no matter how tough the players are I for one believe they are affected - if only ever so little - which gives an advantage to the All Blacks.
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Surely the ABs lost any right for the haka to be dutifully and solemnly respected the moment they sold it to Adidas for a TV commercial?
Besides, the AB haka as we know it isn't that "traditional" anyway, it only dates back to about 1986 when Buck Shelford was captain. Before that, it resembled something more like a morris dance.
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Oh come on if the other countries are intimidated by the Haka, they shouldn't be playing. It's all for the spectators now. Besides, when the opponents look like they don't give a monkeys, I hardly think it's going to cause any psychological concern?!
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When I started watching the All Blacks the Haka was not always performed, but it did not spoil my enjoyment of watching these proud and talented rugby players representing their country. I am in agreement with you regarding the Haka and feel the All Blacks get an unfair advantage from it, both in its timing and performance. The Haka stems from a Maori battle dance and there are fewer and fewer Maoris in the present day All Blacks and it is purely used in an attempt to intimidate the opposition. I feel during such a prestigious tournament such as the World Cup neither team should be given or expect any advantage as afforded the All Blacks. If they wish to continue performing the Haka they can do so during "friendly" tours to entertain the occasional supporter.
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I think the article by Andrew Cotter is rather childish. As an englishman I have always enjoyed watching the All Blacks including the Haka as a traditional start to their performance. They are one of the great rugby nations and winning against the All Blacks is a highlight for any team. Long may they start their games with a Haka!!! The northern hemisphere teams need to focus on improving the standard of their rugby so that they can offer a challenge on the pitch that will offer the ultimate response to the Haka; defeat by the oppenents!
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I could not agree more, particularly in a RWC.
For a friendly match, no problem, but it does give them an unfair advantage. I also laugh at those who say that Italy 'disrepected' them by standing in a circle. Good for Italy. I hope all of NZ's other opponents do the same.
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Any challenge to the Haka is taken as an affront to New Zealand culture. Brian O'Driscoll almost had his career ended by merely thrwing blades of grass in the air. After that incident, the days of the Haka being viewed as an iconic moment in sport ended and it is now just a piece of shallow triumphanisn by the worlds greatest rugby playing nation.
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It's a great sight, and I'm aware that many of the All Blacks have some Maori blood, but how many of them, as individuals, live in a truly Maori culture? And, not to risk upsetting our NZ friends out there, how do the ones who are from elsewhere feel about subsuming their own island identity to that of the All Black machine?
The memory of John Timu leading the haka - eyes bulging, veins on his neck popping out, absolutely psyched up - was a fantastic one (must've been, for it to be my defining memory of the Haka so many years after the event) but only someone with no understanding of confrontational situations would say it doesn't give the NZ side an advantage before the ball is even kicked.
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Have it prior to the national anthems....(or in Ireland's case, godawful Ulster eurotrash entry).
While I doubt it gives the AB's any advantage, the decision by NZ to perform any number of "haka's" from cut-throat to tweedleee versions show it to be little more than an attention seeking exercise for television producers. And as for expecting "respect" from the other team for this war-dance - with an "otherwise, we'll really hammer you" implied threat. What a laugh. Get on with the game after the anthems, we pay to see rugby not Come Dancing.
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Remember Richard Cockerill and Norm Hewitt? Interesting from Zinzan Brooke in 2003. Hope I'm allowed to quote on this blog!
"It was Wayne 'Buck' Shelford who reinstilled the importance of the haka. Back in the Sixties and Seventies, there had been a few, what we'd call, 'tupperware' hakas. Buck didn't stand for that. He meant every word of it and he made every word and gesture stick by the way he played the game. He made it much more of a war challenge - which is what it's meant to be. That's why none of us were particularly offended when [England hooker] Richard Cockerill marched up to us and went eyeball to eyeball with Norm Hewitt in 1997. Cockerill was just delivering his own aggressive response."
If this to believed it may have been the pc crowd rather than the all blacks who were 'offended'. The ABs just got more fired up!
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This is an interesting thread. The Haka has to be done prior to any national anthem. Alternatively, if anyone really is perturbed about any unfair psychological advantage with this Haka dance, The All Blacks should camp it up a little with Rave Techno/Trance anthems, so you have a Trance Haka, a Techno Haka, even a drum and base Haka. If this fails to please, then each team member kicks the other team member firmly in the nuts, and then the other team takes their turn. The players with the hardest and most accurate kick, immediately have the psycological edge on their opposite number !!
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I remember in 1989 watching the Irish team led by Anderson confronting the Haka by moving forward arms around each other and approaching the AB's to the point they were face to face. It was brilliant to be there but of course Ireland lost as is usually the case against them. As the AB's did their number the Irish were shouting back at them 'we're going to beat you'. Anderson did something like a jig afterwards to raise the crowd into a frenzy! I like the Haka and respect the AB's but slightly less so than if the team were actually full of New Zealanders as it patently isn't.
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Do you remember when richard cockrill walked right up to them , they didn't like that much . Knees up mother brown would be my reply to it
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All the talk is of the tradition but I thought that the kiwi's only started doing the haka in the late seventies/early eighties so its not exactly like its been around since the start of New Zealand rugby.
If they or anyone else wants to do a haka or the Aussies sing Waltzing Matilda or anything then it should be before the anthems
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its part of rugby just deal with it. the best comeback to the haka was when neil back and co got in their faces during the haka, this should be the case all the time as elite athletes shouldn't lose any advantage through psychological means. they should be focused on the at hand not a dance!
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To 'exileinwales',
Footage may exist of 60's vintage All Blacks making a poor attempt at the Ka Mate haka - the one which is known as 'the All Blacks haka' - but you can't start the time-line here just because that's as far as your knowledge takes you.
More 'footage' - grainy, black-and-white film - also exists from the opening years of the 20th century, a time when, one could argue, the seeds were sown for southern hemisphere dominance of the game as Victorian and Edwardian class sensibilities cemented the game as a middle-class sport in Europe, while post-colonial strength and psyche handed the Kiwis a very, very fair advantage.
I take it from your snide comment that 'they decide that NZ encompassed most of the Southern Pacific Islands' that you are highly versed in our nation's post-war history.
Or not, in fact.
After WW2 the British - that is, the English plus two other countries that they decided were part of their green and pleasent land - could not buy enough New Zealand produce, including both raw materials (yes, we treat the sheep very, very well before we export them...and don't get me started on the dairy products) and our manufactured goods too.
Unfortunately we couldn't lay our hands on enough good keen manpower to keep up with the Brits' orders, so folk from the islands (Samoa, Tonga, Cook Islands etc) were called in, just as the Aussies, Brits, Americans, Canadians, and...well...pretty much every other white post-colonial country did after the war from various parts of the world.
So one could argue that Fisher and Paykel washing machines are in some small way responsible for the number of NEW ZEALANDERS of Pacific Island-stock (just as Queen Elizabeth II is English and not German, these lads on the team are very much Kiwis, bro) who grace the national rugby team.
The Maori have been about for 900-odd years in Aotearoa and the Ka Mate haka is just one of the more poetic of these 'war dances' that have been a part of their tribal combat tradition for at least a millennia.
The New Zealand Army often performs a haka - created especially, only a few years ago - and accompanying ceremonies when taking over or handing over a peacekeeping base, attending memorial services, welcoming peers from elsewhere and so forth. This is not for their own self gratification, it's not to be showey, it's certainly not to give anybody a pyschological advantage.
It's tradition, and it's a damned good one.
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when NZ are away from home, they should do their anthem and then the haka before the home side has their anthem.
if NZ are at home then they can do it after - throat slitting and all.
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Stop whinging. The Haka is fun. It is even better TV. Which is why the ABs eyes pop out of their heads and spittle runs down their chins. It looks good. But it is a threat to no one. Daniel Carter is not going to roast your entrails. Not that guy. Coming back from his manicure?
As an aside, do you think Adidas minds every time the Haka is on TV?
But to be fair, the traditional AB Haka is THE Haka. It is part of rugby tradition. I am sure someone came up with this new one to show the new breed of ABs are 'relevent', 'involved'. In other words very PC. Therefore, its got to go.
And if someone wants to ignore it, ignore it. Who cares? It still makes good TV. And it's still fun.
And if someone wants a rejoinder, well, if it is reasonable, and someone has at least two brain cells and does not include any throat cut gestures, go for it. This is all supposed to be fun. Right?
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When they have two hakas (e.g. Samoa v. NZ) don't they perform it together? I'm sure I've seen something like that, with 30 crazed south pacific monsters ending up right in each others faces. That's quite fun.
And #18... "levitate"?!
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For goodness sake, can we retain just some sense of tradition and spectacle. The Haka is a fantastic spectacle and something that opposing teams should just face in a resolute manner. What better way to respond to the Haka than to crunch in to the first tackle and shake the bones of the first All Black that gets the ball. This is how Rugby people should respond; not with bleating and whinging. By the way I am English with no connection to New Zealand, other than a love for their incredible brand of Rugby. SUMO.
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I think the haka is just an easy target and critising it ignores the real problem, which is why the Northern Hemisphere is (to put it bluntly) so much worse at rugby than the Southern Hemisphere.
It is not as if we are playing a different sport, and in terms of conditioning and training, any gap has long since been eliminated (note the ready transfer of coaches between Hemispheres).
However, this World Cup has clearly shown that a significant "something" remains outwith the possession of the teams of the Six Nations.
I am certainly not in a position to propose what that is, but I would argue that it is mental rather than physical.
It is widely accepted that most teams (especially in Northern Hemisphere) afford the ABs too much respect and often have lost the match before they realise they might be worthy of more. I think much of that comes down to the lack of passion in the game up here compared to what is so evident in a lusty rendition of the haka.
Although, the players and the coaches will no doubt deny this, I think rugby is still viewed as a social pursuit here (even by those paid to play it). Players aren't held accountable in the way that they are in the Southern Hemisphere. Coaches are happy to judge (and be judged) in terms of "performances" rather than results.
Everything seems so very incremental, rather than the very binary win/lose scenario that sport actually entails.
The ABs clearly see the haka as a key component in their winning mentality, and it is about time that those in the North found their own "haka" and redressed the imbalance that currently exists (and has forever existed) in World Rugby.
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Oooh, a tricky one. This is where rugby starts to tread on the toes of national politics.
First off, I'm a Welshman who's going to move to NZ in a few months - I have family there and many, many friends. I am also, politically, of a slight liberal slant (the reason I tell you that will become clear)
The Haka that everyone knows, Ka Mate, is not a challenge, but a celebration of life over death composed by Te Rauparaha, and dates back to about 1810.
The one everyone got in a tizz about is Kapa o Pango, and is a modern composition. In other words, it has little real heritage, and was written including the lines 'Silver Fern / All Blacks! / Silver Fern / All Blacks!'
The reason that is is politically charged is that NZ culture is essentially a dichotomy, such as you see nowhere else. I love the place dearly, next to my own beautiful Cymru, but it has some strange quirks.
For instance, bi-lingual government websites do not make up for the fact that Maori descendents still make up the bottom rung of the NZ social ladder. As I said, I'm left liberal, but there is a great amount of overly liberal handwringing in NZ.
Yes, it could be worse, but what you get, at least to my eyes, is an overly patronising situation whereby the whites (P膩keh膩) appropriate sections of Maori culture and then congratulate themselves on their integration.
For instance - to play for the NZ Maori team (and even this rule is not hard and fast) you have to be 1/16th Maori. (The 1/16th rule stands in other parts of public life too, by the way). By that rationale, I could play international rugby for Wales, England, Ireland, Germany and Scotland, and that's just me.
So you see - a loaded argument. I don't want to see the haka done away with, but it also irritates me that they get a little precious about it from time to time. After all, it is just a dance.
I personally think it'd be worthwhile having Max Boyce doing a striptease whilst they're doing it, but that's just me :)
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Isn't the answer, to appease both sides, to do the Haka before the National anthems?
1. The crowd get to see their spectacle
2. The tradition is maintained
3. The All Blacks don't get that psychological advantage immediately prior to kick off
Don't get rid of it, but start all international games straight after the hymns by advancing the dancing
(Ahem)
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Many people have pointed out that the principle of equality would work to England's disadvantage because we would have to respond to the haka with morris dancing.
I know England rugby supporters have every right to feel defeatist, but let's not be too quick to conclude that when it comes to dancing we have nothing acceptable to offer either.
I believe the floral dance is very old. But, if that's not to all tastes, what about the Lambeth Walk? Fairly traditional, I'd say. Or, perhaps not as old but certainly traditional at weddings ... the still-popular "twist".
I think we could even make a case for that unnamed, undefined, self-conscious shuffle with occasional random arm movement that most Englishmen have done at night clubs for the past few decades.
More recently, the famous David Brent dance is haka-like in certain respects and might worry the All Blacks.
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How many more times will people who have no idea post comments about something they know nothing about? If they took the time to watch a match between NZ and Samoa, or NZ vs Tonga, or Samoa vs Tonga, or vs Fiji, they would see an extrememly appropriate response to a Haka - another one. DONE AT THE SAME TIME. Ok, so other teams don't have one - I would love it if the Celtic Nations came up with something from their long and proud history that they felt represented them and their past and future, people and culture. That would be spectacular I'm sure.
The Welsh last year decided to try and sing their anthem twice? What's that about? If they want to, of course they can, but an appropriate response to the Haka would have been singing it directly at the face of the All Blacks as they did the Haka - by choosing to effectively try and upstage the Haka is of course going to cause offense because it is a deliberate slap in the face akin to insulting your own family members to you. Bad example, but the only one I could think of.
The English are a little stuck though as they only seem to have Morris Dancers available to them to represent them. Bad luck!!
To those who feel that the Haka or others like it have no place in professional sport, they are free to go and watch soccer.
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Nice work Andrew - I couldn't agree more.
Now, I'm as much a traditionalist as the next man and I reckon this sort of thing adds colour, soul and spectacle to sport, which is, after all, supposed to be entertainment.
And having been lucky enough to report from the New Zealand v Tonga game in Bristol at the 1999 World Cup, there's no doubt the hairs on the back of my neck sprang to attention as 30 giants performed a war dance simultaneously.
Seeing and hearing it live, in a small ground - what a buzz!
But I can't help thinking that these days the All Blacks (mainly, but you'd have to include Tonga, Samoa, Fiji if you were ever to do anything about it) get a massive psychological boost from it, while the other side is expected to stand there politely and take it.
That's like giving Tiger Woods a couple of shots head start.
Sure, part of sport is about mental strength and being able to phase out any "gamesmanship" by the opposition, but this doesn't seem very fair.
And I agree with all those who brought up the "new" Haka argument or said that until relatively recently most of the side didn't know the first thing about it. Kind of quashes the "tradition" line then, doesn't it!
So maybe we need a compromise. Maybe it should come before the anthems.
I'd hate to see it go. But then I'd hate to think the All Blacks need any more help to win this World Cup.
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The Haka is a Maori tradition, it was traditionally done before battle, hence why it has been adopted by New Zealand sports teams. It is important to preform overseas as it is calling to the ancestors to help and watch over the battle.
There is no 'one' Haka with different iwi and hapu (tribes and sub-tribes) having their own, however,the traditional All Blacks Haka is the most famous and well known.
I am sorry that so many of you feel hard done by watching the Haka and think it gives NZ an unfair advantage but think of it this way it exerts a lot of energy, therefore the All Blacks are actually playing a slightly longer game than the opposite team, and secondly it is a popular spectacle.
If nothing else, the Haka should stay in respect to the Maori culture of New Zealand. Finally, given New Zealand has one of the least inspiring anthems ever we need the Haka.
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We should just show it up for what it is... perhaps the english boys could do some morris dancing while they do it, the irish a quick jig... We shouldn't dignify it by bothering to watch let them prance about if they want but they shouldn't get special treatment.
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Have to say that the haka makes watching the ABs a special occasion but I think that opposite teams should front up or encircle them to psyche them out. Why single out the ABs, what about 'Irelands Call'???
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Well said Andrew! All of these dances/challenges should be done in the dressing room or during the warm up if it means so much to the All Blacks and the Pacific Islanders. It's a modern professional game and the Haka and its cousins are a relic of a bygone quaint era. Get shot of them and get over it. The only fun to be had is watching these burly he-men from NZ spit the dummy out if anyone 'disrespects' their war dance. Willie Anderson had the right idea in 1989! But that's all past, bin it and stop crying.
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What a lot of fuss about nothing. That is what it is after all.
I was under the impression that Rugby was a tough game played by tough men. If you are scared off by a little arm waving, grunting and tongue showing how will you have the nerve to actually tackle your opponent?
I am really indifferent to the Haka especially the version performed by the AB. I have watched a "traditional" Haka while on holiday in NZ and it was far more intimidating than what you see on the Rugby field.
If the AB feels that they must keep this then why not allow others to respond or are they afraid of being intimidated. Personally I would like to see Scotland bring on some pipers to deafen their opponents; it may give them a better chance of actually winning something.
But really this is all a big fuss over nothing. AB, dry your eyes and get on with life!
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Yeah, get rid of it. Why should NZ (or any other team) get special treatment? Same treatment for all please. What's hard to understand about that?
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Are we all so far behind the All Blacks that the only way we can get back at them is to whine about the Haka???
Why not try and beat them on the field, now thats a novel idea, dont you think?
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The Haka is traditional. Doing a Haka doesn't just apply to rugby as many sports people from New Zealand chose to do it. The basketball team does I know that not sure about others though. Its part of our tradition and nobody can deny its part of the rugby tradition.
No one complained about it when we lost the last four world cups did they? It didn't help us much then.
We have no problems with replies, in Australia they sing waltzing matilida during the haka, its their choice.
And to prove we don't do it just to get the "upper hand" when wales didn't want us doing it we did it in the changing rooms, it is a part of the players to do it for themselves.
The day the haka is gone we will all truly know rugby have lost its uniqueness, and become something like soccer, American football, or baseball. Super commercialized, overly professional, and more importantly BORING.
But from the standard of play of northern hemisphere teams this year maybe that is what they want.
Rugby is the important thing, the 8 minutes on the field. Forget about everything around it.
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As a Brit living in NZ, I believe that both sides of the argument have value. The Haka is a great way to challenge the opposition, so then why don't the other teams reply in kind? I would love to see England do the Morris Dance, the Scots doing the Gay Gordon, the Irish with Riverdance, the Argentines with the Tango perhaps, and so on...
What is really annoying, is that the ABs get to do 2 songs and a dance - after all their anthem is the same song sung twice, once in English and once in Maori. It is bad enough listening to that bloody awful 'God Save the Queen' - who is after all also the Queen of NZ, Oz, Wales, Scotland and part of Ireland! Change the English anthem, allow every team to do a 'cultural heritage' piece and cut out the 2nd songs - especially that twit who walks round singing 'Waltzing Matilda'!
As for Jason, mate, I have found Kiwis to be some of the most arrogant people ever - I should know, I married one :-)
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The Haka!
Does it give an advantage to the AB's,or does it encourage their opponents (who ever they are)
to try even harder to beat them?
We comment on this "because" it is the AB's!
Would we even bother if was (and no disrespect intended) Portugal?
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What a lot of fuss about nothing. That is what it is after all.
I was under the impression that Rugby was a tough game played by tough men. If you are scared off by a little arm waving, grunting and tongue showing how will you have the nerve to actually tackle your opponent?
I am really indifferent to the Haka especially the version performed by the AB. I have watched a "traditional" Haka while on holiday in NZ and it was far more intimidating than what you see on the Rugby field.
If the AB feels that they must keep this then why not allow others to respond or are they afraid of being intimidated. Personally I would like to see Scotland bring on some pipers to deafen their opponents; it may give them a better chance of actually winning something.
But really this is all a big fuss over nothing. AB, dry your eyes and get on with life!
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Are we all so far behind the All Blacks that the only way we can get back at them is to whine about the Haka???
Why not try and beat them on the field, now thats a novel idea, dont you think?
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hmmmm....interesting comments...would like too know how many have been posted by whinging bloody poms, i mean if the queen wnats to come and shake the players hands prior to a match i bet you would all be happy to see it. Rugby as a sport is just taking on a greater world audience, and lets face it people its not from Johnny Wilkinson kicking drop goals to win matches, it is a result of the style of rugby that the all blacks play and the culture they bring to the sport. I ask you would you be complaining if your beloved England weren not playing like a third devision team from New Zealand. Prisoners of Modern Britain stop yah whinging and enjoy some of the greatest rugby ever seen and also the culture that is rugby and the world cup.
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When the Brits get rid of the royal family we will consider stopping the Haka. Then again the Haka is an older and prouder tradition, so we'll keep it even when the Royals are finally dismissed. The correct response to the Haka is to extend your pakeha tongue out toward the ground in front of your opponents and prepare to get your backsides whipped!!
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Let the Haka continue, it is part of the International game and a sight to behold.
But answer me this.....why do the English team use 'God Save the Queen' as their National Anthem. It is not , it is a British national anthem hijacked by the English. Let them derive their own and let them not steal our collective nations anthem. I leave the room when this is played for the English team, it is an insult to the anthem.
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I dont think the haka should be banned, it's one of the things you look forward too when watching NZ.
I do agree however that teams should be aloud to retaliate, morris dancing is far scarier then the haka. The irish could do river dancing, the welsh some sort of sheep herding, and the scottish can wear their kilts and do what we're all thinking.......
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The haka has been performed by the All Blacks for as long as they have been playing rugby. It's an accepted tradition. As many have already pointed out the watching crowds have been disappointed when it hasn't been allowed. I love it and proud to be a kiwi when I see it. I'm obviously biased.
I don't have any problems with opposing teams performing their own (short) dance/ritual/etc if that would help them prepare for the game.
However, I suspect a lot of the negative noise about this is driven by jealousy. Where is the same noise about the other pacific island teams routines?
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Bored of the Haka, bored of the insulted kiwis. What ever happened to the Haka of the 80's when they stood in a semi circle? Now it looks like a terrace of football fans with little or no form.
Shut up, get on with playing, lose to Australia, then go home and mope.
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The main arguement here is "do the AB's get an added advantage if they are allowed an extra anthem - traditional or not!" The answer has to be yes, even if the advantage is very slight.
The next question then has to be "so what do we do? Stop it or allow a right of reply ......and then there's who should go first?"
I have to say that watching Tonga and Samoa doing there own versions at their match in the RWC almost seemed like watching pantomime. So maybe the answer should be to stop it all together.
However, whilst rather enjoying the idea of the traditional Scottish reply involving the raising of kilts, personally, as an Englishman I long for the day when an English team replies to the Hakka by the entire team clenching their right fist and raising it in a fierce upward jesture until the bicep hits the left hand's downturned palm, whilst politely shouting "Up Yours!!!!"
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The last time the pre-kick off challenge issue was discussed by the IRB, prior to the last world cup it was suggested that nations such as Fiji, Samoa and Tonga should be prevented from performing their challenges. This was because the haka they perform do not actually exist in their cultures and they have been put together specifically with Rugby in mind. I believe they definitely made the right choice in keeping them. In my view the traditional performance of kamate prior to kick off is as sacred as when the Maori battalion performed it prior to going over the top in Cassino. You obviously wrote this blog to get a reaction and yes we are precious about it in NZ, but you obviously have no idea how patriotic and galvanised haka makes us feel in NZ. It might be a new phenomenon as some point out but wouldn't England like something more than a slave song introducd in 1988 when they finally broke their try drought of 2 and half years. Take it away, ban it if you will. We will still do it in the dressing room ... The world will just be a poorer place.
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I have read the threads with interest, and noted the points on both sides and have found myself falling down on the anti-haka brigade.
I should then hasten to add my reasons why, which are three fold;
There are the traditionalists who believe that the all blacks have been doing it for so long that the precedent has already been set, so there. Absolutely right, we all want to see the haka, but as has been rightly pointed out, there is nothing to stop them doing it before the anthems, or doing it within a circle.
Then there are those who insist on the historical/colonial factor, that the Kiwis have the right due to the past. This is rugby, not football, the spirit of rugby has it's origins in amateur sport. It has honour, dignity and respect. The haka has all three elements in itself when viewed in isolation, but when done in front of the opposition loses some of all three. The argument also loses its impact when one realises that the all blacks weren't the first to perform the haka.
The final reason is that, as has been pointed out, why shouldn't the English resort to Morris dancers, the Irish to Lord of the Dance style routines, the Scots a Braveheart ensemble complete with traditional sword (the name of which escapes me). In fact, why not wheel out the Gullotine when the French play?
The absurdity of the above suggestions is deliberate, I for one don't one to see the game descend into an America eye-candy fest.
The haka IS an important part of the game, but performed before the kick off is (however minor, as I believe it is) an unfair pyschological advantage and thus against the true spirit of the game.
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What a ridiculous world we live in! People using political correctness to outhwart the political correctness behind the tradition of the Haka. Who cares if the have the last say and outdo the opposition on the prematch festivities.
Although the Haka may not traditionally be meant as a challenge it has taken that role in world rugby. I'd much rather England, or whoever is playing against them, responded by winning the game than with a teary eyed rendition of God save the queen from Lawrence Dallaglio.
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The biggest issue I have with the Haka is just how precious the kiwi's have become about it, and more so in the past 3 or 4 years. its almost like some sort of catholic ceremony now, where your mother tells you off if you talk during mass.
For a call to battle, they seem very scared to let anyone respond to it. If anyone does anything against it, they moan for days afterwads about it being disrespectful. You can't ignore it a la Italy at the start of the rwc, you can't face it down because thats disrespectful. It is apparently more important than the home teams own anthem,fair play to wales for forcing them to do it in the changing room. What exactly are you supposed to do while they are prancing around in what has become a giant ad for adidas. O'Driscoll dropped a fern leaf in response following some bad advise and they were so angry they tried to insert him in the ground like a flag pole during the lions.
At least the aussies have a bit of a laugh when you watch rugby with them; kiwis are just becoming like that frigid maiden aunt that never lets you have any fun whenever they are around.
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Tradition is no absolute justification for anything. We are lead to believe female genital mutilation is traditional; doesn't make it right. I'm glad to see so many comments criticizing the AB's and many New Zealanders' arrogant attitude towards the haka. About time.
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Well like all things in life( with the exception of English rugby) .The haka has "evolved."Thats why it isnt what it was years ago.Its been changed,analysed,made better.Perhaps if English rugby had undergone the same process,then perhaps it wouldnt look like the throwback that it is.
Take out the haka and then whats left? Boring anthems. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz."God save the queen".zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. The haka adds to the pagentry which rugby has.And lets not forget that most of the pacific nations have their own version of the haka.Clearly you have no understanding of the sentiments of these nations and their perfoming of it.If the haka is banned then so should the singing "Swing low,sweet chariot".Id like to see that happen.NH is grasping at straws at the moment.And if further confirmation is needed about the popularity of the haka.look no further than USA.THey love it
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I have read the threads with interest, and noted the points on both sides and have found myself falling down on the anti-haka brigade.
I should then hasten to add my reasons why, which are three fold;
There are the traditionalists who believe that the all blacks have been doing it for so long that the precedent has already been set, so there. Absolutely right, we all want to see the haka, but as has been rightly pointed out, there is nothing to stop them doing it before the anthems, or doing it within a circle. Or, hey, before the spectators..
Then there are those who insist on the historical/colonial factor, that the Kiwis have the right due to the past. This is rugby, not football, the spirit of rugby has it's origins in amateur sport. It has honour, dignity and respect. The haka has all three elements in itself when viewed in isolation, but when done in front of the opposition loses some of all three. The argument also loses its impact when one realises that the all blacks weren't the first to perform the haka.
The final reason is that, as has been pointed out, why shouldn't the English resort to Morris dancers, the Irish to Lord of the Dance style routines, the Scots a Braveheart ensemble complete with traditional sword (the name of which escapes me). In fact, why not wheel out the Gullotine when the French play?
The absurdity of the above suggestions is deliberate, I for one don't one to see the game descend into an America eye-candy fest.
The haka IS an important part of the game, but performed before the kick off is (however minor, as I believe it is) an unfair pyschological advantage and thus against the true spirit of the game.
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Remember when Willie Anderson walked some of the Irish team into the middle of it at Landsdowne Road - it didn't go down too well
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Let the Haka stay, it was around on the rugby field long before any one of us were alive. The Haka may have changed lately but that does not mean it's not "traditional"..many years ago the All Blacks did a very comical Haka that was preformed facing the crowd with the blokes laughing as they did it-didn't seem to bother anyone then.
Scotland showed up in an away style strip against the All Blacks..does this suggest it was a home game for the All Blacks?...if so then let the host do their thing....if not then let your guests do their own thing as well.
World cup year and the scotish team turn up with some no hopers...shame on you scotland. Show some gut's and get stuck in. Your failure to field your best against a truely testing side was more disgusting then any song and dance.
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Let the Haka stay, it was around on the rugby field long before any one of us were alive. The Haka may have changed lately but that does not mean it's not "traditional"..many years ago the All Blacks did a very comical Haka that was preformed facing the crowd with the blokes laughing as they did it-didn't seem to bother anyone then.
Scotland showed up in an away style strip against the All Blacks..does this suggest it was a home game for the All Blacks?...if so then let the host do their thing....if not then let your guests do their own thing as well.
World cup year and the scotish team turn up with some no hopers...shame on you scotland. Show some gut's and get stuck in. Your failure to field your best against a truely testing side was more disgusting then any song and dance.
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Tradition is no absolute justification for anything. We are lead to believe female genital mutilation is traditional; doesn't make it right. I'm glad to see so many comments criticizing the AB's and many New Zealanders' arrogant attitude towards the haka. About time.
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If they want to perform the Haka, then fine. But to demand that other teams dont reply and "respect" it is petulance in the extreme. The Haka today is simply a marketing gimmick, performed mostly by Fijians/Tongans and white European heritage players, completely negating the point of showing of NZ Maori culture, think Tim Westwood on the rugby field...
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I am not a Kiwi but lived there for many years, even played rugby there decades ago. I get a kick out of the haka, but I always cringe when Kiwis and AB fans get precious about it, especially in someone else's ground. The Wales face-off was probably the good result -- If you can't be even-handed about it on the pitch, i.e. accept a response to your challenge, then do it in the changing room. If AB fans miss it, then they can petition the NZRFU and the Maori experts to come up with an even-handed solution. But the idea that NZ should have the one-and-only say is puerile.
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There is actually a little-known 'Welsh haka' - no doubt some careful googling will produce a video clip...
Personally i love the haka, although i can see the argument against it. I guess i just like the way it's become a tradition and as a neutral it does stir the blood.
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If you cant face a challenge on the pitch from any pacific nation then you may as well pack your bags and go home. Haka or no Haka, the result will be the same, complaining about it just makes you look like bad sports.
I notice there were no complaints about the Haka at the last world cup? Perhaps thats because you actually played rugby?
Dry your eyes nancy boys.
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I love the Haka. But I honestly believe it should be that OR the anthem and they should perform it in place of the anthem, whether that is first or second.
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Haka......kids love it !
I say let it be. The all blacks are so sensitive over it, if a team were to demand a retort NZ would probably walk off the pitch.
I would just like to see a team walk into the middle of them and eye ball their opposite numbers until it all kicks off.
As for morris dancing they need not - England are already shocking the world with their lack of rugby skills........
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Who are you exactly? The Haka has been around for years and is an integral part of the game and attracts interest from those who might not normally watch rugby. A very misguided piece of writing.
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Like all rugby fans I grew up with and loved watching the Haka.
None of what I said was prompted by the fact that 'We can't beat the All Blacks on the pitch so let's have a go at The Haka' My country has never beaten New Zealand and I have always been full of total admiration for the way they play the game (and jealousy for the talents of Ali Williams and his Scottish parentage.)I am certainly not deluded enough to think that if New Zealand didn't get the psychological lift of doing it just before kick-off then suddenly other sides might be able to beat them. But any psychological edge, no matter how small, should not be allowed. That's why home sides get to have their anthem second. In that respect, every game for The All Blacks is a home game.
So my problems are firstly the timing of it - immediately before kick-off.
Secondly the fact that the New Zealand side can be so sensitive as to be offended by the manner in which some opposing teams have chosen to meet it.
And thirdly, that they can start doing a new version of the Haka. If the defence is tradition (and that's a good defence - tradition is wonderful in rugby and sport as a whole)then how can you change it?
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Who are you exactly? The Haka has been around for years and is an integral part of the game and attracts interest from those who might not normally watch rugby. A very misguided piece of writing.
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ban it? NO!!! but give every country the right to reply - yes!
its a magnificent spectacle when Samoa, Tonga, Fiji or New Zealand meet in the World Cup with both countries having their war dances before kick-off. surley Scotland (along with other nations) could find something equally inspiring before games? (so long as it aint embarrasing)
what really anoys me though is the fact that all the pacific nations are allowed their war dances - yet rumour is that last time round the IRB denied scotland the right to have our national anthem played on an instument that is as much - if not more - a part of scotland as the haka is new zealand. and the result is, well, terible! no disrepect to whoever recorded our anthem for the WC, im sure they are great musicians, but it just doesnt sound right played by a brass band. So while New Zealand perform their haka before every game - scotland arent even allowed to have our anthem played the way we like it? a disgraceful example of double standards by the IRB.
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In response to the English national anthem - at least it's over with quickly and we don't have several droning verses. Personally I'd rather hear Jerusalem as it's much more stiring.
Perhaps in response to the Haka we should form two lines of men, one stood, one kneeling, wait for them to finish and 'shoot' them with our 'muskets'? That was traditional too! ;-)
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Leave the HAKA ALONE, its tradition, and a pleasure to watch unlike the rugby crap us brits seem to flap on about and as for that glass player wilkinson who falls down injured everytime anybody so much as looks in his diretion and its a game of rugby not soccer ,the object is to score tries not kicking goals like beckham. from an Englishman whose ticked right off with EXCUSES for trying to take any enjoyment out of this beautiful game,if the English teams did a haka it would most probibly be THE HOKEY COKEY.
LEAVE IT ALONE and all the other hakas as well there BRILLIANT
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RE KiwiMark no 56
You should practise what you preach my friend about history. You may well be clued up about yours, but it does not sound like you know much about Europe at the start of the Twentieth century, or what little you do know is about England, and think this applies to the whole of the Northern Hemisphere.
Anyway, to correct you from a Welsh point of view, I dont think you would have found too many "Victorian or Edwardian Middle Class" coal miners, steelworkers or farmers in the South Wales valleys at that time.
Not very good at playing rugby now we may be, but we were never Middle Class Elitist Snobs as you ignorantly say.
Regards
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The HAKA was ok when you only saw NZ once a year on tele but now the novelty has gone out of it.
Give it up.
And while we are at it start introducing the Football rules - if you require medical attention - you ahve to leave the field until the referee allows you back on!
If there is a scrum or a lineout and a hooker or prop is off the field then it is a free kick to the opposition!
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Its up to the other nations to come up with a proper response rather than moaning about it. if the kiwis want to waste energy dancing let them. the haka is throwing down a challenge and that's it. there is no advantage in it. it could even work against them because it could inspire the other team to take it up. Don't ignore it embrace it, teams that try and pretend its not happening end up looking stupid and the blade of grass thing was "thinking too much" about it. didn't that backfire spectacularly?? its basically up to the rest to pick up the gauntlet and stuff it back up them, stop moaning!
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Well being an NZder it鈥檚 more a national sense of pride than the anthem for a lot of true sport people. I think you need to take your head out of your ass stop being manipulated from your media. The Haka is a challenge to your opponent and honestly I think most NZders and players would rather see a challenge back the only people who think that is disrespectful are you and your media. Ozie challenges it by forming a line a singing walsing matilda. If you want to disrespect it on the field do it, but all you do is motivate the team to annihilate you even more and show that you just ballsed out and how much fear you have in playing the All Blacks to start with.
There would be no psychological effect if you didn鈥檛 fear them to start with and what kind of bullshit argument is that you should be maxed out on psychological effect as soon as you take the field you鈥檙e playing for your country dam it. Don鈥檛 NH people have any pride? When I鈥檝e put on the black shirt on for others sports I feel 10 feet tall and couldn鈥檛 feel any more amped and ready to go.
The anti Haka brigade is just trying to hide the true reason from themselves why their side is not winning. At the moment the IRB shouldn鈥檛 be reducing the world cup down to 16 teams, it should be 4 teams and give the final token spot to a playoff between pumas and the winner of the 6N to make up numbers.
THE ALL BLACKS DON鈥漈 WIN BECAUSE OF THE HAKA. The win because they are simply far better team than NH teams and until NH stop denying that and can get it through their heads they need to improve or they will continue to be cannon fodder 9/10 games they play.
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For all the "indignant down under" brigade, who have started talking down to the "ignorant of the haka's value (cultural or otherwise)" debaters, nobody has suggested it should be banned, so chill.
The game of rugby itself should be above all this, hence the debate that it should be performed in a different setting. The debate has been around since the World Cup started, regardless of who won every four years.
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Just for a little bit of perspective...
Does anyone remember the game between Wales and New Zealand a few years ago? The All-Blacks "allowed" the Welsh is sing their anthem last. However, it turned out later that they felt it had just been a favour. When the Welsh planned to do the same at the next match (both of these games where in Wales), the All-Blacks declined to do the haka on the basis that if they did not get their own way and perform it last, they would not do it.
What gives the All-Blacks the right to perform the haka just before kick-off? Absolutely nothing. The home team should have the chance to sing their anthem/perform their dance just before kick-off. That would be much fairer.
I personally feel the haka should be scrapped. The cultural heritage line is rubbish (not performing the haka is hardly a slight to the culture of the Maori) and I find the haka boring repetitive and cringe-worthy. However I do accept others feel differently.
My main problem is the fact that because no-one has stood up to them before, the New Zealand team bosses feel they have the god-given right to perform last. That is plainly false. Keep the haka, but don't make it so sacrosanct.
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Well being an NZder it鈥檚 more a national sense of pride than the anthem for a lot of true sport people. I think you need to take your head out of your ass stop being manipulated from your media. The Haka is a challenge to your opponent and honestly I think most NZders and players would rather see a challenge back the only people who think that is disrespectful are you and your media. Ozie challenges it by forming a line a singing walsing matilda. If you want to disrespect it on the field do it, but all you do is motivate the team to annihilate you even more and show that you just ballsed out and how much fear you have in playing the All Blacks to start with.
There would be no psychological effect if you didn鈥檛 fear them to start with and what kind of bullshit argument is that you should be maxed out on psychological effect as soon as you take the field you鈥檙e playing for your country dam it. Don鈥檛 NH people have any pride? When I鈥檝e put on the black shirt on for others sports I feel 10 feet tall and couldn鈥檛 feel any more amped and ready to go.
The anti Haka brigade is just trying to hide the true reason from themselves why their side is not winning. At the moment the IRB shouldn鈥檛 be reducing the world cup down to 16 teams, it should be 4 teams and give the final token spot to a playoff between pumas and the winner of the 6N to make up numbers.
THE ALL BLACKS DON鈥漈 WIN BECAUSE OF THE HAKA. The win because they are simply far better team than NH teams and until NH stop denying that and can get it through their heads they need to improve or they will continue to be cannon fodder 9/10 games they play.
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to see a white european descendent performing The Haka for the AB's is simply embarrassing. That Williams guy (the lock) goes way over the top and looks simply ridiculous and foolish. Its a maori war challenge for gods sake not a disco dance for posh NZ boys from Auckland. Watch the Kiwis League team (all direct maori descendents) do the Haka - that is quality as opposed to dan carter looking all 'im hard'!! Ridiculous!! Its a pity that everytime the 91热爆 show edited highlights of the Kiwis on Grandstand they rather conveniently edit out The Haka from the programme as though it remains the exclusive property of the posh white boys from auckland!! Give us a break.
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Tonga, Fiji, Samoa all do haka, you don't seem too concerned at them! The reason you don't like it is that the All Blacks beat you so badly 99 times out of 100 and you think this adds to the edge. What rubbish. Other teams should take inspiration from it and use it, its a challenge! In New Zealand school teams perform a haka before the game. I still remember mine and it makes me feel proud. Its part of our culture.
You don't like it when your teams get mulched.
GO BLACK! KIA KAHA!!
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In response to the English national anthem - at least it's over with quickly and we don't have several droning verses. Personally I'd rather hear Jerusalem as it's much more stiring.
Perhaps in response to the Haka we should form two lines of men, one stood, one kneeling, wait for them to finish and 'shoot' them with our 'muskets'? That was traditional too! ;-)
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In 2005 I think that the welsh responded to the Haka by singing Guide Me O Thou Great Redeemer. Personally I thought that it was a fitting response being the vocal equivalent in welsh rugby. The song has an iconic staus amongst the fans and it was well received...
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The response of any team faced with the AB Haka should be to shoot 3 of them out of hand thus making the game more even; with the possibility of an upset more likely but not guaranteed!
Haka or no Haka is just so much tosh.
Concentrating on beating them over 80 mins is far more important.
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OK, here it is...
22 Englishmen line up in formation. Tap their feet twice and clap.
Tap their feet twice and clap.
Boom-Boom-Clap
Boom-Boom-Clap
WE WILL, WE WILL, ROCK YOU!!
WE WILL, WE WILL, ROCK YOU!!
i know you're singing it ;);)
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Sorry fellas, but serious questions have to be asked if people who are intimidated by the Haka are being selected to play rugby for their country.
Next thing you'll be telling me that international rugby players will wet themselves and jump to one side just because the other fellas are wearing black jerseys and have a bit of a reputation.
Oh, wait.......
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Guys...some of the comments on here are silly imo. "repungent throat slitting"? Get over yourself. The Haka is one of the spectacles of rugby and to see it go would be a sad day for world rugby. As mentioned, no one complains about Tonga's version, or the other pacific islands.
Get over yourselves and just enjoy it!
And Andrew Cotter, you wasted your time and money on a childish whine :)
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Personally I love the Haka. I'm a Scot, watched the game, felt proud of the performance and think the performed well given the fact that everything in NZ focuses on the national game of Rugby.
That aside, personally I wouldn't want to face a Haka at any point before a game. If I was captaining an opposing team I would say just tot off to the other end of the pitch and ignore it. Pass the ball around among yourselves. It's not disrespectful not to face it in the same way as it is not disrespectful to perform it. It's all about the rugby on the field of play and simply doing what you think it good preparation for it.
just my tuppence worth!
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Well, I'm not hacked off with the Haka. But must say its the McDonald's of the Rugby Haka World. I love to see the true grit and honesty shown by Fiji, Tonga and Samoa when they perform theirs before the game. But the All Blacks has more of a brand name, organisation and a fake professional feel to it I find it pointless. Before I get slated by Nzers. I understand the spiritual, and traditional values of the Haka.
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Like all rugby fans I grew up with and loved watching the Haka.
None of what I said was prompted by the fact that 'We can't beat the All Blacks on the pitch so let's have a go at The Haka' My country has never beaten New Zealand and I have always been full of total admiration for the way they play the game (and jealousy for the talents of Ali Williams and his Scottish parentage.)I am certainly not deluded enough to think that if New Zealand didn't get the psychological lift of doing it just before kick-off then suddenly other sides might be able to beat them. But any psychological edge, no matter how small, should not be allowed. That's why home sides get to have their anthem second. In that respect, every game for The All Blacks is a home game.
So my problems are firstly the timing of it - immediately before kick-off.
Secondly the fact that the New Zealand side can be so sensitive as to be offended by the manner in which some opposing teams have chosen to meet it.
And thirdly, that they can start doing a new version of the Haka. If the defence is tradition (and that's a good defence - tradition is wonderful in rugby and sport as a whole)then how can you change it?
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If the kiwis (and those from seemingly any other island within 1,000 miles who constitute a significant proportion of their team) want to prance around before a game, that's fine - it hasn't helped them for the last 20 years has it?
What I do object to is their childish, petulant demands that the whole world "respects" them. Grow up guys. You play great rugby, and acting like a bunch of over-sensitive infants who feel that the World Cup is theirs by right just demeans you. Dish it out, but can't take it - sort it out!
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Whether or not it provides an advantage is surely down to how the side 'facing' the Haka reacts? You have to allow yourself to be intimidated remember, and I don't believe that any of the players in RWC are up for that.
It's a challenge, plain & simple - face up to it, use it to fire yourself up and prove a point. And if you're not up to it, then why are you on the pitch?
I'd have given a b0llock to be out there and face up to the Haka delivered with the sort of passion the AB's give it nowadays.
Keep it going - it was the highlight of Sunday's 'spectacle'!
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Well being an NZder it鈥檚 more a national sense of pride than the anthem for a lot of true sport people. I think you need to take your head out of your ass stop being manipulated from your media. The Haka is a challenge to your opponent and honestly I think most NZders and players would rather see a challenge back the only people who think that is disrespectful are you and your media. Ozie challenges it by forming a line a singing walsing matilda. If you want to disrespect it on the field do it, but all you do is motivate the team to annihilate you even more and show that you just balls out and how much fear you have in playing the All Blacks to start with.
There would be no psychological effect if you didn鈥檛 fear them to start with and what kind of bullshit argument is that you should be maxed out on psychological effect as soon as you take the field you鈥檙e playing for your country dam it. Don鈥檛 NH people have any pride? When I鈥檝e put on the black shirt on for others sports I feel 10 feet tall and couldn鈥檛 feel any more amped and ready to go.
The anti Haka brigade is just trying to hide the true reason from themselves why their side is not winning. At the moment the IRB shouldn鈥檛 be reducing the world cup down to 16 teams, it should be 4 teams and give the final token spot to a playoff between pumas and the winner of the 6N to make up numbers.
THE ALL BLACKS DON鈥漈 WIN BECAUSE OF THE HAKA. The win because they are simply far better team than NH teams and until NH stop denying that and can get it through their heads they need to improve or they will continue to be cannon fodder 9/10 games they play.
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The Haka should stay after the anthems as it always has its a tradition that should never end!!
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I am an Englishman who has lived in NZ for 20 odd years and who has the greatest respect for NZ rugby. The fact that there is now some controversy over the performance of the Haka should not detract from the fact that, compared to other nations, NZ have maintained a consistently magnificent standard of rugby throughout the years.
As regards the Haka, my view is that it should be seen as part of the drama of the international stage. Yes, the Kiwis do get very precious when other teams don't give it the respect they feel it deserves, but that is because they feel that disrepect to the Haka means disrepect to the All Blacks themselves.
You can have great fun here in NZ by bagging the Haka and the All Blacks (in jest) and then standing by and watching as this normally wonderfully easygoing and friendly people turn into one-eyed fanatics. They take their rugby very, very seriously indeed here.
Kiwis should lighten up about other teams' reactions to the Haka and if everyone else wants to get in on the act then fine. Let England perform the Anglo-Saxon Death Chant of Maldon or Scotland bare their essentials. It all adds to the drama.
But should the Haka be banned ? Definitely not, just seen as part of the game.
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Sorry fellas, but serious questions have to be asked if people who are intimidated by the Haka are being selected to play rugby for their country.
Next thing you'll be telling me that international rugby players will wet themselves and jump to one side just because the other fellas are wearing black jerseys and have a bit of a reputation.
Oh, wait.......
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1) If your team can't face the challenge of the haka they clearly can't face the challenge of the AB's. Deal with it and harden up!
2) Facing the haka is probably as uplifting as doing it. Don't whinge like a bunch of little girls, embrace it, face the All Blacks and tell them to bring it on. Ours is not a gentle game. Are you men or boys?
3) With all your complaining why is it that so much of the media coverage of the world cup is the men in black and their little dance??
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Re comment 52, Declan,
In your view what exactly is a New Zealander? Are they a certain race or colour.
NZ is not the largely white bastion that many ignorant Europeans believe. Don't judge us by your own standards.
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Guys...some of the comments on here are silly imo. "repungent throat slitting"? Get over yourself. The Haka is one of the spectacles of rugby and to see it go would be a sad day for world rugby. As mentioned, no one complains about Tonga's version, or the other pacific islands.
Get over yourselves and just enjoy it!
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The daft thing is that the Haka is supposed to be a Maori challeng but a large percentage of the New Zealand rugby team are of European descent,what right do they have to peform this ritual anyway???
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The Haka should stay after the anthems as it always has its a tradition that should never end!!
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The haka is part of the new zealand culture, much like the other island nations. Its not New Zealands fault that other countries do not take there heritage seriously, i'm sure that if someone like australia fully welcomed the aboriginal culture before all the convicts came that they too would have a version of a challenge, maybe more countries too.
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I am disappointed to see that this issue of the Haka has raised it's ugly head again.
Yes I am a kiwi and as such I have been brought up with the Haka. Arguements that because the Haka has changed it is no longer traditional are laughable. The essense of the Haka is that it is a challenge it doesn't matter what form it comes in. The NZ Haka has become part of what rugby is........many not rugby followers may watch a game to see the Haka and that can't be a bad thing.
Lastly and probably my main point, many of this columns readers mention the unfair pyschological advantage the AB's get by performing it before the game.....My answer is simply this....If you think that you need to do a dance to get fired up and motivated to play for your country in a test match....then you shouldn't be playing for your country.......
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Couldn't agree more. Yes the Haka is a great spectacle, but why should another team dictate anything at Murryfield, the millenium stadium, or indeed any stadium that is not their own.
The Welsh not allowing the Haka was great, it's time other nations stood up to the AB's and told them where to shove the Haka. Bring back the days of the Irish marching into the centre of the Haka as it's getting performed, the Welsh belting out the anthem at full voice.
Yes the AB's are the best team in the world and we should respect the so called traditional Haka, although having seen it performed before the era of Buck and the mid 80's team, it was nothing but a little show, part of the entertainment, which the players themsleves seemed embarressed to perform, check out any of the you tube footage. So this passionate 'tradition' is all rubbish. let the AB's perform it at home last and let them bow to their hosts wishes while touring.
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There is nothing wrong or beneficial about the HAKA, i was recently at an event where Sean Fitzpatrick spoke about the origins of this and it was more about preparing for battle rather than a challenge, regardless if it has been changed it is still a rugby tradition and not just a NZ thing, perhaps it should stay and the stuffy folks should GO?
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I think you need to go away and do some proper research about what a haka means, which is what you probably should have done before you wrote this article. There has never been one haka, there are many, and they can be created so your point about tradition is ignorant and wrong.
Also the other team can respond to the challenge - surely you have watched NZ play Samoa before, since you are such an authority on the game. But singing a song is not a challenge and neither is singing an anthem - its an anthem! So do your response then - there's no problem.
There is an accepted way to face the haka, but if you chose to ignore that then so be it, and all the better to NZ - do you understand what that means if you do that Mr Authority?
And once again there is a lot of comment above about NZ being made up of many different cultures - correct it is! Go away and do some research about the current make up of NZ society and the forces of immigration at play in that part of the world, then write your comments on here. Ignorance - and a large chip on most of your shoulders. Do you here NZ complaining that 13 of the Samoan team were born in NZ but are now playing for Samoa?
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Dear Dale -Comment 89
I have to argue with your claim that the All Blacks 鈥渟ystematically poaching of island talent for the All Blacks鈥.
You site
Rokocoko
Sivivatu
Collins
Masoe
Toeava
厂辞鈥檕颈补濒辞
Lauaki
Sivivatu鈥檚 family moved to New Zealand in his teens, the rest all came when they were about 5 years old. I鈥檝e stated this else where on this site but it is worth repeating because you must have missed it.
The New Zealand Rugby Union does not have the uncanny foresight to spot an All Black at the age of 5, which is about the age these players were moved to New Zealand by their families. Nobody has that level of foresight.
Please stop insulting these men by saying, in effect; that they are not 鈥淣ew Zealander鈥 enough to play for the All Blacks. They are naturalised New Zealanders. Their families moved to New Zealand, they grew up in New Zealand, and these players have achieved the hard fought for position of being able to play for New Zealand, in the black jersey, through their dedication and talent.
Scotland has 12 foreign born players: Dan Parks (Australia), Nathan Hines (Australia), John Barclay (Hong Kong) and seven English: Craig Smith, Gavin Kerr, Andrew Henderson, Rob Dewey, Simon Webster, Hugo Southwell, and Jim Hamilton. Would you waste your time claiming Scotland poaches players, or these players aren鈥檛 Scottish enough? I didn鈥檛 think so.
And as for the Haka: there is a traditional response available to teams put out by the All Black performance of the Haka, out-play them! Of course this would involve the 鈥渉ome countries鈥 being committed to out-playing a Southern Hemisphere team, which is something they seem utterly unwilling to do so far in this competition no matter what the cost.
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Oh come on - remember the semi final in `91 of Scotland vs the ABs? (Or maybe it was the 3rd place play-off - could someone enlighten me?) Anyway, John Jeffrey just grinned at them all the way through it as though he was enjoying a bit of pantomime, didn't look remotely intimidated.
Though I do think they should perform it before the anthems - a bit of "Gwlad gwlad..." would be a nice reply for example.
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The haka is part of the new zealand culture, much like the other island nations. Its not New Zealands fault that other countries do not take there heritage seriously, i'm sure that if someone like australia fully welcomed the aboriginal culture before all the convicts came that they too would have a version of a challenge, maybe more countries too.
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The haka is part of the new zealand culture, much like the other island nations. Its not New Zealands fault that other countries do not take there heritage seriously, i'm sure that if someone like australia fully welcomed the aboriginal culture before all the convicts came that they too would have a version of a challenge, maybe more countries too.
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Glasshouses and stones, Dale (89), Glasshouses and stones...
Where do H Paul, P Freshwater, M Stevens, S Abbot hail from? Somewhere in the 91热爆 Counties? I think not...
While Sivivatu is indeed a recent arrival to NZ, the others spent most of their childhoods in NZ and as immigrants and naturalised citizens have the right to play for NZ.
It's odd how this "poaching" debate only refers to players who're not Causcasian. I don't recall a fuss over Steve Devine playing for the All Blacks when, IMO, he had no right to, having represented an Australian side.
As for the Haka- it adds something to the atmosphere but I agree with the majority of posters: NZers have no right to be precious about it when other countries have no similar tradition.
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Maybe it should just be assumed that the Sipi Tau, Siva Tau and Cibi all fall under what he's complaining about instead of failing to address the basic premise of his argument by introducing strawmen about how the blog is motivated by jealousy.
Any claims of "culture" are quite frankly ludicrous, yes it's a cultural icon, but it is not one that belongs to white European descendants who worked so hard to marginalize the Maori in modern New Zealand society.
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I have no issues with the Haka as a spectacle I just wish the All Blacks would stop being so damn precious about it. Press reports about teams 鈥榙isrespecting鈥檌t quite frankly bore me. The Haka suffered near fatal injuries for me last autumn when the AB鈥檚 sold their 鈥榗hallenge鈥 to sky before the Welsh game cos boo hoo the Welsh wanted them to do it before the anthems. And died a death, when they 鈥榮old鈥 it to addidas for commercial gain.
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The Kiwis are all direct Maori descendents? What a load of bollocks, much like a lot of the other comments on this blog. I'm Scottish and I absolutely loved seeing the Haka at Murrayfield. This point has been made repeatedly but nobody whines about the Pacific nations' hakas nor do you hear the opposition league teams complain about the Kiwis haka. When the ABs or the Pacific teams play each other the hakas are performed simultaneously and the spectacle is twice as impressive. Most of the fuss about the haka is created by media that have nothing better to write about or are trying to avoid discussing the dismal state of 6 nations rugby at present (barring France every few games). And besides, noone has ever tried to stop other teams responding to the Haka (ie the Aussies singing Waltzing Matilda which is just ridiculous but their choice) apart from in Wales, which stemmed from the belief that the anthems and the haka are two different rituals...agree or disagree with that but the whole thing is blown up by irresponsible and poorly informed journos.
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What I don't understand is, why is NZ's culture more important than any other? Let them keep their Haka if they will, but let other teams decide what they want to do, without interference from NZ' whiners.
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I love the Haka. But I honestly believe it should be that OR the anthem and they should perform it in place of the anthem, whether that is first or second.
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Have been surprised how few AB comments there have been to this. For me there are 2 very clear points:
- the haka should stay and be challenged
- I would consider the loss of any body part to be a small price to pay to see another great RWC tradition continue - that of the AB's choking and watching another nation lift the world cup.
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Ban the Haka totally, whether the odious All Blacks or any other South Sea nation - it is an inappropriate, offensive piece of gamesmanship, and a war cry has no place on a field of sporting endeavour. Let the New Zealanders play the game without cheating too.
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I'm thoroughly sick of the Haka and all the preciousness (is that a word) around it, get rid of it. Sing the national anthems and then straight into the game.
And before anyone gets on my case, I'm a kiwi & part maori.
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What a lot of whingeing uninformed posters you have here! There are far too many points to correct, but a few easy ones:
1. The haka (the generic term for a Maori challenge) is the tradition being spoken of, not the particular haka of Te Rauparaha which is performed much more frequently than the recent Kapa O Pango haka written specifically for the All Blacks.
2. The NZ league team (The Kiwis) comprises New Zealanders of many ethnic backgrounds, not all "direct Maori descendants" as stated by "darran mather".
3. If an opposing team wants to disregard the haka then they are perfectly entitled to do so, it is the media that beats up the "disrespect the haka" story afterwards. SA and Australian teams regularly keep their tracksuits on while observing the haka, personally I think they are disrespecting their own Jersey in that case.
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As a Rugby fan I love the NZ Haka and believe it should continue, however I believe this 'Traditional Challange' gives the AB an edge.
I would like to see the teams be able to cross over the half way line and stare down there respective AB opposite number as once England did.
This would lead to a much more intense game!
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does anyone seriously believe that the haka gives the all blacks an advantage? i mean surely a team of professional rugby players, who know all about the haka and have mostly faced it before are going to be completely unfazed by it, perhaps even fired up by it themselves. the all blacks always beat everyone because their style of play (offloads, support play and sheer strength) is streets ahead of anyone else, its not to do with the haka. its almost like saying teams get scared by the opposition anthems! its a bit of entertainment to introduce the game, dont take it so seriously!
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People are going on about the Haka being traditional. Well rugby was traditionally an amateur sport, but is now professional. Times change, and I have seen the future!! CHEERLEADERS!! They could do the Haka with their pom poms, Riverdance for Ireland and the can can for France, that way nobody is frightened by 15 men sticking their tongues out, and the players get to see pretty girls prancing in front of them, maybe it would get the blood flowing. God knows Ireland needs something different to the dirge that is Ireland's Call
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I like the Haka (as indeed I enjoy the "War dances" of the Pacific island nations) and think it should be kept as a tradition of the pre-match ceremonies. But how to respond? Wales a few years back decided to meet the challenge by having an opera singer belt out a hymn (a very Welsh solution). I have no problem with this myself, but we missed an opportunity. Lets meet it next time with the Welsh team belting out "Bread of Heaven" dressed in full national cotume - stove hat and all!!
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Good blog is one that generates so much response - This is a genuine question - so the many Kiwis who have responded in this thread with such aggressive words, please dont get upset - Do NZ league teams both do a Haka before league and cup games? - Just interested - if it is a warrior tradition before a battle, it would seem logical to conclude that each team would have their own version. My opinion is it is fine to keep it - any opposition professional rugby player worth his salt would take inspiration from it.
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Forget the Haka why do New Zealand have a team made up of players from around the southern seas?
Shouldn't they be forced to change from being New Zealand to a South Seas island team?
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NZ might not always rule world rugby but it seems they always want to run world rugby. Even the RWC logo with the stripey rugby ball bears quite some resemblance to the silver fern.
I have no beef with NZ as a nation or its people. However I do have a problem with the haka - and no it's nothing to do with the NZ-argument that other countries might use it as an 'excuse' for getting resoundingly beaten. The fact that the original haka is no longer performed and it has become far more aggressive in the pro-era, plus the fact it is no longer a novelty, probably weakens the case for keeping it.
Congratulations to Mr Cotter for putting over his opinion which many of us have agreed with. I too dislike the haka (and indeed any of the other pre-match routines from FIJ, TGA and SAM). Why should some countries always get indulged whilst others are expected to just keep quiet and reluctantly smile and politely clap these rituals?
Why do they still get indulged in this day and age? Because NZ always want to run rugby and the petty jealousies of the old five nations towards one another means that we are never able to stand in unison and challenge them at IRB level.
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Mark Nordhoff Comment 134.
It is good that you question how the All Blacks have the right to perform the Haka. It is not a matter of what families the players spring from, but rather how the performers respect the Haka.
All members of the All Blacks can publicly perform the Haka, as the traditional performance of either Haka before a match is considered a worthy use of the dance. The All Blacks for their part, are simply custodians of the Haka, and must in their performance not disrespect the Haka. This obligation not to disrespect the Haka is the reason it is performed just prior to the beginning of the game, as that is the traditionally appropriate time for its performance.
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Speaking,as an ex pat Englishman
who has lived in NZ for about 25 years,i'm sick of the sight of the bloody thing, as one man famously said you get a Haka at the opening of a public convienience over here.
Chris
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The same old chestnut aye?!?! Every year you poms have a whinge about the haka. Despite the cultural considerations which I will not get into here the haka is great for rugby. It is unique and would diminish the sport in theyes of many neutrals/non-rugby people. Just get over it and do your talking on the field. Extra advantage etc etc, what a load of rubbish!
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It makes me laugh to see non Maori or Islander males with their pale skin, small tongues and squinty eyes trying to fit in with their Indigenous mates in chanting a war taunt that was originally aimed at them. Leave it in I say, it's fun but please zoom in on the 'all whites' when they pull faces.
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Sorry but I disagree!
It isn't political correctness talking here, just good manners. The Haka is a tradition of New Zealand. If the South Africans wanted to Zulu dance before their games, people, particularly the 91热爆, would be falling overthemselves to accomadate them.
The haka is awesome sight, and as for the AB's having the upper hand after performing it. I also dont agree. After watching the Haka, I am so pumped I would like nothing more than to smash Jerry Collins, or Chris Jack or whatever All Black that got in the way (I played scrum half by the way). The Haka, for me, is just as useful as it is for the AB's.
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Alot of the people complaining about the haka come across as very bitter. Your team (whichever that is)probably isn't performing well and you want to express anger at this fact. You should concentrate on the things that would improve your teams performance. Getting rid of the haka, or making the All Blacks perform it before the home sides anthem, will not make your team any better.
And to the writer of the blog. If you're going to write something like this, I would suggest you not do so just after your team has been on the receiving end of a humiliating 40-0 drubbing by a lack-lustre All Black team. It would look less like sour grapes.
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if my research is correct ..it was your grandparents or great grandparents who made the HAKA part of NZ rugby culture. When the first lot of NZ rugby teams toured the UK in the early part of the 20th century..your grandparents loved and demanded to see the NATIVES peform the cultural dance called the haka...whats wrong with your generation? You seem to like NZ as a mini idealistic engaland, not over populated and rich in scenic beauty? However your willing to bring your racist views and nazi mindsets to something that is 'native' and accept that the haka is a cultural symbol for NZ? That NZ is a biligual country?
It's because up until the 1980's the NZ All blacks were dominated by white players who did the 'haka' like a bunch of girls..thus the introduction of wayne 'buck' shelford. His influence and determination to do the haka with real passion,vigour and MANA..evolves to what you see today. The Haka striking fear into opposition and used correctly to issue the challenge.
In true English fashion you have decided to again ( every year and every time the home country rugby teams are performing on par to the national football team..complete crap) some bright spark decides to target the 'haka' as the reason why a winning team like the All blacks must not get away with performing a triditional native dance before a match..maybe its the jealously factor along with 'england is the centre of the universe' mentality?
If you take time to research the haka and its importance to NZ as a biligual country and how it evolved as a cultural symbol for NZ this debate wouldn't of even started. Ask your grandparents why they wanted to see the haka performed? Why did 'native dance' tickle their fancy? ohh our generation doesn't want to see native dance or haka because we are far to advanced up our backsides to let other countries maintain a proud tridition.
this bloggs topic regarding the HAKA is and was always intending to spark the racism debate.
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Get over it. Anything to whinge about.
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I have long thought that teams should respond in kind.
Personnally I'd love to see someone sing 'I'm a little Tea-pot' complete with actions as NZ do the Hakka.
I reckon that would really annoy them.
My main issue though is with the seriousness NZ take it.
Why can a home team respond with their song? At the Bledsloe cup game in Melbourne this year Australia went with 'Walting Matilda' after. Also, all connection to Maori tradition was exposed as a sham after the Lions tour when the NZ rugby team cried blue murder over the disrespect of the Lions original approach - captain and youngest player to face it alone despite Maori tribal elders describing this as the proper way to face the Hakka.
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I don't care very much when the Haka is performed, nor do I think that it influences the outcome of any match. Furthermore I'd hate to see it go, as I think it's a great spectacle. However, there needs to be a directive from the IRB asserting that the Haka is to be performed before an international match whenever the host nation bloody well says it will be performed! Could you imagine any other team touring to a foreign country and insisting that their hosts must sing their anthem first!? I'm thinking of course of Cardiff, last October. Their arrogance and disrespect towards their hosts on that occasion was astounding.
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Well I think that the above comments miss a key area. my 9 year old daughter would never have played rugby if it wasnt for the haka. Hs loves the idea that Rugby and Ballet dancing can be combined in the pre match entertainment... and that is how she sees the throat slitting traditional challenge that the Haka is.
Mind you she is disappointed to have to learn a different variant this year... as she can't quite understand how that is a traditional challenge .... mind you neither can I....
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Hear hear - I'm hacked off with the Haka too! I fully admit at this point that I'm no neutral - I'm a green-eyed Welshman, deeply envious of the ABs ability to smash us (and most if not all others) off the park (or should that be paddock?).
However, the way the Haka (and its variants) are now preformed is as much about "growing the ABs brand" as it is about tradition - encouraging shirt sales as much as sh*t stains, if you get my meaning. The Haka has sadly become a 'made-for-TV' charicature of its original cultural intention and shouldn't be tolerated anymore.
(For example, just watch the way someone like Byron Kelleher theatrically twists and screws up his face - as if he's some demented member of the cast of Cats. Tosser.)
Personally, I'd recommend doing a "Campese" and totally ignoring the whole tostesterone-injected charade, but one thing is for sure - the ABs shouldn't expect the opposition to just stand there like lambs to the slaughter, lapping up their war dance so as not to cause offence (if ever there was a contradiction in terms that must be it). I thought it was great when they weaseled out of doing the Haka in Cardiff last year just because the Welsh insisted on them doing it before Land of My Fathers. Diddums! (OK, they then stuffed us by 40 pts but to me this actually reinforces the point that they don't really need the pre-match oneupmanship!)
At most allow the ABs to perform their fairy dance BEFORE the anthems; prefereably though, let them keep their choreography for the NZ equivalent of the Eisteddfod.
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I remember watching a few years ago when the All Blacks performed the Haka and the England(?) team went up to them to stand inches away. That certainly shocked the All Blacks, but I read comments afterwards that they didn't think the Haka had been 'disresepcted', rather that it had been challenged, which was fine by them. Why don't more teams do this?
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My historical knowledge of the Haka is limited, but i believe that it is synonymous with war (i am happily corrected if wrong)? However seriously one takes rugby, it is not war. It is a meeting of nations in a sporting capacity. Regardless of the passion and patriotism amongst the teams why should one team be allowed to prepare for war when its oposition is simply preparing for a game of rugby??!!
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In reply to thread #89 Dale: Now you & many others complaining about NZ poaching pacific islanders are the ignorant ones. Do you not realise that even though these players were born in the islands, they actually came to NZ at a very young age. These players have been taught how to play rugby in NZ & not in their birth countries so I don't think that Samoa, Tonga or Fiji should take credit for any of them. Have you even bothered to listen to any of them talk??? They all have kiwi accents you idiot. I too am a Samoan who was born in NZ but have many cousins/friends who were born in the islands. They also came to NZ at a young age for a better life & we all play club rugby. I also know Jerry Collins personally & know that he is a very passionate kiwi who represented NZ from schoolboys to U21 all the way to the AB's. NZ also have a very large population of Pacific Islanders & it just frustrates me to read ignorant comments like yours. I have watched many games in Samoa & believe me, they don't have the talent to want to poach. I'm guessing it all comes down to jealousy because we are such a strong rugby nation & always strive to play better & faster rugby. So please stop using this excuse of poaching & just concentrate on the pitiful state of rugby in your own backyard. I wonder how long it will take for England to win another world cup??
As for the haka?? I really don't think the AB's care if the opposition don't face it or not. Again it is the NH press making such a big deal about it & all this crap about kiwis taking it to heart & that we should lighten up. What a load of rubbish!!! At the end of the day, the AB's will still play well even if the haka was not performed. Why are there no threads about banning the PI hakas?? Because they are not the No.1 team, end of story.
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Haka schmaka. Watch out you ABs as (top secretly) Eng coach Ashton hired top aggro-ballerinic Wayne Sleep to formulate UK vers of haka which will debut in Paris v Tonga on Fri. Dubbed the Asboka - the UK haka 'contains an elemental beauty and violence representitive of Britain in the 1960s.' You heard it here first.
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As a child of Maori decent, the Haka was taught to us young in our Maori Culture classes...anyone remember those? but we didn't perform it prior to our rugby games. Now living in the US, watching the Haka gives me goose bumps, as it should when done properly. The Haka was originally intended to psych out the opponent prior to battle in a culture burdened with animism. If there was ever an appropriate time to perform it..it's definitely AFTER the anthems. Isn't rugby a war game anyhow? NZ is unique in many ways and the Haka is an appropriate tribute to the Maoris present and past and a good little dig at the rest of the world. Clearly it's not a pretty site, but sets the tone for how the ABs will play the game. For a such a small gene pool it's interesting how so few can dominate so many....is it the Haka?!
Kia Kaha
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Agree with you over the haka. As a Kiwi we make too much of it, giving it status that it doesn't deserve. Over here, many Kiwis are tired of making the Haka bigger than it is and after the Italy incident there wa a lot of comment saying good on the Italians.
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Re 164, masterdeluxe
Don't bother explaining the "poaching" business to these people. They know very well about the young age, and about the fact that more NZ-born players play for PIs, than PIs-born players play for NZ. But listening to facts would take away one of the two complaints that they have about NZ rugby (the other one is haka), and would require them to search for problems in their respective countries. And they are not ready to do that yet...
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Bobby H - comment 160
Another good question, yes the New Zealand National Rugby League team (the "Kiwis")does perform a pre-match Haka, as do some other New Zealand teams, such as the New Zealand Basketball team (the "Tall Blacks", honestly).
The nature of the Haka is probably best shown by the fact that the New Zealand Cricket team doesn't perform a Haka before a match. A Haka is to ready a group for emininent battle, it is not really appropriate as a warm up to a five-day long event.
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The problem isn't the Haka but the NZ demand that it be respected.
Firstly, European-NZers, by and large, bear a huge amount of resentment towards maoridom in other aspects of kiwi life. Many refuse to sing the maori verse of the anthem but give the "God of nations" part their full attention.
Secondly, many of the team have said that they don't care about the haka as a tradition in the national sense and that they perform it for their own benefit and preparation. This admission alone should render all argument for the haka void. No other team in the world gets extra time to prepare before the game except the NZ boys.
I have lived in NZ for a good many years now and I can truly say that I have never seen anything like blustering hubris and petulance of the NZ rugby fans when it comes to the haka. Any perceived slight is met by a raft of precious nonsense in the papers. There is usually a maori cultural professor somewhere willing to pour forth vitriol about "lack ofcultural sensitivity".
Well, let me put it like this. I'm irish. It's in my culture to show disdain for someone challenging me. In maoridom it is unacceptable to do this. I wonder if any NZ fan is even the slightest bit embarrassed that your rugby team comes as guests to our countries and then attempts to foist their "traditions" (see posts above for the debunking of this myth) onto their hosts? Perhaps they'd be better off grabbing a dictionary and learning the meaning of "gracious" and "humble".
Bunch of show-boating narcissists, the lot of em.
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Just do what I always do when I see them perform it....hummm and sing to yourself "You put your right leg in, your right leg out, in out in out shake it all about". Never seems as ferocious then I can tell you.
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Haka after anthems, thats ok. As long as its not changed to destroy its purpose for "lets not upset people" reasons .... then again, lets allow a level playing field: the throat-slitting gesture is fine, given its historical / cultural reference, as long as a .303, a Maxim etc would be deemed equally acceptable ;-)
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When it is performed(the haka)why do you see every major rugby venue around the world light up like giant glow worm caves as cameras flash from all corners if it is so reviled by opposition fans?Perhaps thats why at dear old Twickers they prefer to have afternoon games so you can't see the flashes!
What about Tonga,Fiji and Manu Samoa?Or do you conveniently choose to forget about their pre game challenges?And thats what they are....challenges.The dual face off between the AB's and Tonga/Samoa or Fiji is an amazing spectacle. The Aussie fans now retort after the haka and before kickoff with Waltzing Matilda....and good on them.The English have their negro spiritual,the Welsh have Bread of Heaven and the Scots have the pipes.The problem is most rugby players are crap singers and you might get the odd Scottish player who can belt out a ditty on the pipes but in reality it would look/sound a little strange on the field of play in rugby kit.
During last years 91热爆 Unions tour the ABs had a completely different response at Murrayfield from that they received at Twickers.The English crowd booed their lungs out whilst the Scots were silent.Interesting eh.....
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Get over it! Ask the IRB whether or not they'd like the Haka removed from the flavour and heritage of this sport. Right! The All Blacks can always perform the Haka in their changing-room...and watch out. (A/B's v Wales - 2006). No problem.
Interesting to read these comments, and from-where the negatives are coming. The way this RWC is going, the finalists will be OZ, NZ, SA and Argentina. Ho-hum.
Pull your pants-down England, Wales, Ireland, Scotland and France. You're not even in the game. Slow,boring, fat, underdone and without the skill and speed to beat a provincial team in my country.
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Sorry, I appear to have wandered into the soccer, oh sorry football, forum by mistake; a sport where the major skill is to fall down convincingly without being touched. The haka is a challenge; if you can't meet the challenge then yes, the ABs have an advantage (but then you should probably be playing football with the 'girly boys' to quote my gubernator, not rugby, the world's toughest sport).
I am a Canadian, living in the US (and Southern California at that), married to a Kiwi (for 30 years), working for an Aussie boss in an Aussie company. So I am either more culturally sensitive than many of you, or just confused. I have loved the ABs (and the Haka) since I lived in NZ in the late '70s (and Graham Mourie's undefeated tour of the UK).
Keep the haka, it is great spectacle and totally appropriate to playing rugby; learn to handle the challenge and you might start along the road to being truely, consistently competitive again. Well that, a few basic skills and learning not to fall down before being hit.
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Well, my friend:
no more Flower of Scotland then.. You may sing along God save the Queen..
And, you may also field one team and one team only - Great Britain, well United Kingdom..your pick...
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Of course performing a haka is traditional and it adds spice and culture to the event. It smacks of sour grapes to say it gives the All Blacks a psychological edge. As a traditional challenge issued to the other side, it's fine if the opposition want to respond with their own reply - the Welsh singing thier traditional song is a fine example, to be welcomed. A friend of mine maintains that England should send out the Morris Dancers and I think that would be great.
And let's get over the "throat slitting" gesture. It's not about cutting the throat at all. It is about accessing life force engergy and is symbolic of doing that - different cultures express meaning with different symbols, so it's important to check out what's being meant by any symbolic gesture. I repeat the gesture in the newer haka is nothing to do with slitting anyone's throat. Finally, the haka is still a traditional way of offering a challenge, whether the latest haka is adopted or another one. Most cultures continually evolve, and just because the All Blacks have thought to bring out a new version of the haka, doesn't undermine it's place in our cultural heritage.
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As an Englishman in New Zealand i can tell you that the kiwis are really precious about their Haka. It seems its the only thing the pakeha (people of euro descent) want to embrace about maoridom.
At the moment there are no maori players in the AB's, it seems to me a little silly having someone called Mcaw, Carter and Mauger performing this Haka.
In my eyes it actually demeans the origins of the challenge. When I have seen my Maori freiends perform haka's it is a thing of wonder. The hairs stand up on the back of your neck and you see the intensity and belief and sense of purpose in what it means to be Maori.
I just feel its done by NZ's beacaue it looks good.
Finally please no more jokes about morris dancers its been done to death and is really not funny.
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I also object to #89... Haka was danced in the dressing room, too... Just to prove the point it's an issue with TV ratings... ABs can't care less... By the same token, no more tartan army then, no more pipes... no more Flowers of Scotland -- You all under the UJ - what about that??
It's unbelievable #89 sticks together female mutilation and Haka... Let's call your bluff... ABs are always the top favourite team...you can'ts tomach it... your poor performances are because the Haka.... What about this ??
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The Haka as already stated is a significant part of New Zealand's heritage as a relatively young and multi-cultural country.
Truly it is a challenge which everyone should have the right to respond to and according to Maori tradition this was always the case. It is supposed to be intimadating as it is a sign of intent, hence why we prefer to perform right before the game as it wouldn't carry the same meaning otherwise.
Most of the top High School teams in New Zealand perform their own 'Haka' simultaneously or in succession which adds to the occassion and at times galvanises the supporters of the opposing teams.
Perhaps we can seem a bit precious about it but quite possibly this is also blown out of proportion by speculative media reports that at times have little in the way of substance.
What is a tradition? Is it not something that is started and continued for a succession of time? Looking at it in this respect you could easily say that the 'new' haka which was created for 'this' team is their tradition which they use for special occassions as it is meaningful to them and a sign of their upmost respect to use it as a challenge when they expect a hard fought encounter (not always necessarily the case...).
The supposedly more traditional 'Ka Mate' is almost if not more iconic than our All Black apparel with the Silver Fern emblazoned on the chest. Are you going to suggest next that the mystique and prestige with which the jersey also comes with gives us an advantage and should be changed for a fluorescent pink shirt? I doubt it but surely our enlightened bretren of the North can come up with something better than suggesting because we are 'precious' about something a lot of Kiwi's can easily identify with (not just those of Maori descent) and feel patriotic about should be scrapped is folly.
If it should come to pass it would be the sad result of over professionalism, redundant political correctness and the ridiculous. Bring on the challenges! I would love to see the NH teams play real warrior rugby instead of being a collective group of over-paid wusses, harden up and find a challenge you can be proud of instead of rubbishing ours!
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After reading the blogs posted here, I came to realise that perhaps the true meaning of the haka has been lost. A haka is not solely a war dance. The haka can be performed for a number of reasons, and not all related to war. The Ka Mate haka itself is a ceremonial haka, not a war dance. Ka Mate is a dance to celebrate life over death.
And perhaps the haka in international rugby has been misconstrued too. The haka is also performed to recognise the significance of an occasion. Most people may think that the All Blacks perform the haka to psyche themselves up. Few realise that it is a sign of respect they give to their opponents and the gravity of that occasion.
As to why the ABs changed to Kapa o Pango from the Ka Mate haka for Scotland, I can only speculate that perhaps they saw Scotland as their first real "threat" and treated it as such. With more caution and respect.
By the way, I'm neither a kiwi by birth nor a maori. I'm a Malaysian living in New Zealand, who has had the opportunity to enjoy and respect the haka for what it really is. Keep it in rugby. Respect it for what it really is. Teams of yesteryears did.
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Okay joking aside....I've just two things to say here. Yes...I agree the haka (whatever version and by whatever nation) should only be performed before the anthems. As wonderful as a spectacle as it is, any way you look at it IS a psychological advantage to the team who perform it just before the off. I don't see why the South Pacific nations should have a problem with this. If it is a war challenge then why can't the opposition say "right, now our turn...'god save the Queen' or 'Flower of Scotland' etc". I think the argument for who sings first goes to the home/away team would be a fair and correct one. Secondly to the one or two above who've mentioned "Ireland's Call" in the same argument...this is a completely different issue and evidence of the posters ignorance of the game. Ireland's Call was written and introduced in the mid 90's as an inclusive island-of-Ireland anthem for the whole team, some of which are proud Ulstermen who are technically British subjects. When international games are played in Dublin the Irish national anthem "Amhrain na Bhiann" is played first as the event is being played in the Republic of Ireland and then "Ireland's Call" is played to represent the 15 players "from the 4 proud provinces of Ireland". When we play away from home only Ireland's Call is played. And just to take my point further when Ireland played a WC warm-up game at Ravenhill in Belfast in August God Save the Queen was played first and then Ireland's Call. Irish rugby's unique tying together of an otherwise divided island into one sporting team is the reason for this unique anthem scenario. Unlike the haka it is a song of unity and brotherhood and not war declaration.
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"The Haka was originally intended to psych out the opponent prior to battle in a culture burdened with animism. If there was ever an appropriate time to perform it..it's definitely AFTER the anthems" I think that is the point people are trying to make; its an appropriate time for the kiwis.. not the opposing team! Either way, I doubt that it has much impact on the outcome of the game. The issue for me is whilst there are plenty of kiwis stressing how important this cultural demonstration is for them, they don't seem to realise a lot of people are complaining that other nations ,such as the english, scottish, etc don't have an oppertunity to do this too... Either culture is important or not right?
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If NZ are allowed the Haka, then England should be allowed to Morris dance in front of opponents; now that really would be scary.
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Whilst I can appreciate the reluctance of teams facing the AB's to give away the tangible advantage that the haka allegedly provides I think it pertinent to consider the following;
1) It is part of the heritage and fabric of the code that is being consistently denuded by the commercialism of professional rugby. Must we suffer further erosion of traditions? Perhaps these people who whinge about the haka could spend their time queuing for overpriced hot dogs and flat beer from the sponsors while the true rugby fans watch proceedings?
2) I have listened to and read many comments from ex-players who have faced the haka and claim that it has little or no effect on them. Tim Horan was famously quoted as saying it was a joke and if Frank Bunce was going to perform it, he should at least learn the words. 1-0 Mr Horan
3) The haka is a challenge to an opposition prior to battle. Not prior to singing some maudlin tune about why your country is better than the next. I can not believe the knockers do not appreciate watching the AB's and say Samoa face up and present their challenges to each other simultaneoulsy? Surely there are few sights as stirring as this in international sport
4) For all of the 91热爆 Unions puffery about rich cultural heritatage, it seems contradictory to complain about another nation sharing theirs prior to smashing the opposition to pieces. Surely it is this kind of attitude that has lead to the French and Scots coming up with identical jerseys to the AB's or doing deals for home games (suck France: that one has backfired hasn't it?). One would have thought these actions do less for the game than the haka?
Long Live The Haka and while I'm at it, Bring Back Buck
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I enjoy seeing it done with a bit of feeling, but it is nothing but gamesmanship. It's a bit hard for any side to respond to the Haka, given the tv cameras and shaggy-dog microphones in the way - it keeps the sides well apart and dilutes the effect. I'd love to see the Samoans "hakaing" back at NZ at the same time and see the two teams so close you couldn't get a teamsheet between them.
They certainly shouldn't be a standard response - it should be upto the individual oponents to respond as they see fit, without the All Blacks getting upset about it (O'Driscoll, Lions tour etc etc). NZ shouldn't have the right to perform it at away games - when in Rome.....
And while we are at it, since the Haka changed recently I think that showed it's becoming a gimick.
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Let the buggers continue to do it...it just makes their inevitable choking more enjoyable. I reckon they'll lose in the Q finals this year.
England should do the chicken dance.... da, da,da , da , da, da, da dah, da, da, da da, dada dah.. complete with annoying actions.
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"What happens when the ABs play Samoa?"
They both perform at the same time.... and its great!
Who cares about the Haka anyway? When will someone do a post on the dilution of Northern Hemisphere competition with players from the South. Half of the Wallabies, Springboks and All Blacks will be playing in Europe after the world cup - how does that help European player development? Hence the shocking world cup results!
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I'm utterly bored by the Haka. I've seen it a hundred times.
I'll admit it can be impressive; and it helps wind their players up. But it's boring - and it HAS lost any historical relevance by being revamped
Now here's something that will really get the AB supporters going.
That the all-blacks are permitted to prance around before each game is a symptom of a serious problem in world rugby. The All Blacks get special treatment.
Evidence:
1) They are refereed differently. If they weren't then McCaw would hold a world record for yellow cards (persistent offside, handling in the ruck, not staying on feet...). I have only once seen the all blacks refereed fairly. (they lost)
Moreover - the referring in the France / AB tests was a disgrace
2) They are effectively permitted 2 anthems, where others are permitted 1. Ok - the south pacific islanders can do there's. But if other nations wanted to sing twice or dance the lambarda (as suggested above)it simply wouldn't be allowed
3) They are punished differently by citing officials. It happens ALL the time. The most obvious example is the O'driscol incident. But Nonu's tackle on D'arcy in '05 should have resulted in a ban.
Am I a whinging pom. Well yes, a bit. (though I'd rather england lost to Tonga and we get the painful exit over with.)But i can't stand everyone swooning over the all blacks when they get keep getting special treatment. Of course they're good - but there just aren't any other decent teams around apart from maybe SA.
If they get refereed and play a good team - they'll lose.
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What interests me is that nobody bitches about the Fijians, Samoans, and Tongans performing their traditional challenges before their games. Is it because the 6 Nations sides can actually beat these teams?
Rusty - the whole haka before a game started because NZ were invited to show a little native culture to the Brits and Irish early last century.
However, I agree that the team and country have become somewhat precious over the haka. It is a privilege, not a right, and if requested, should be performed between anthems. They've already shown that they lose nothing by performing it as early as pre-match (Wales 2005). I also agree that they've forfeited the tradition argument with the new haka.
Get rid of it, keep the old one, and when away,do it at the time you're requested to.
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I personally don't understand why it is only the northern hemisphere teams (& some fans it seems) that have a problem with the haka. The only time this debate ever happens is when the All Blacks play the six nations teams. What's the big deal? If you're scared of it you probably shouldn't be on the field, because you're scared of facing the All Blacks, not a haka. When the All Blacks play any of the South Pacific nations, they face their respective challenges with respect. The home team start the challenge and the visiting team responds during it, it is incredibly stirring to watch - have a look on YouTube. Plus the All Blacks love it and get more fired up when they are challenged during it, that's kind of the point. It's a great tradition, relax people!
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I dont mind the Haka but the New Zealanders are hypocrites. When they last played Wales in Cardiff they were banned from doing it on the pitch and so they did it in the tunnel.
History shows that the war dance was done to throw down the gauntlet to their enemies and they would wait for a response.So what are NZ afraid of? Why do they not want us to respond?
Let them do the Haka and as a Welsh supporter let us rspond with our own war anthem - MEN OF HARLECH. If you are not sure of the song just take a look at the great movie - Zulu.I reckon this song would make our players feel like giants. The same impact that the Haka gives NZ.
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What a bunch of whiner's you lot from the north hemisphere are!
There is a right of reply and the NZ gets one when they play Samoa, Tonga or Fiji, so if you want to riverdance, sing danny boy, play the bag pipes or if english bore us to tears with that old classic 'Swing Low' then go right ahead
As for an unfair advantage, if your an international rugby player and you get worried about the haka then you shouldn't be playing international rugby let alone rugby.
I can remember playing Rugby League in the north of england for an ANZAC team and all the english people wanted to see was the haka performed.
I think too much is made of the haka, it's there as a reminder to our indigeous history.
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the haka doesn't necessarily give the new zealanders a pyschological advance. it pumps up the oppsition team as well, and seeing as most of the nz team aren't maori, it actually means nothing to the majority of them anyway
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I'm a Scot living in NZ, so a foot in each camp here. I'd like to make 2 points.
First, there are many Hakas. The tradition is when and where it is done; the actions are different for each Haka. So having a new one is OK, and doesn't change the tradition. It is suggested here that the new Haka "Kapa O Pango" (Team in Black) has much more traditional significance anyway, btw. The "Ka Mate" was the Haka of one particular chief from one particular tribe (Te Rauparaha of Ngati Toa).
Second, I have been told that during the first NZ vs Wales test (first ever) in Wales the All Blacks performed a Haka to which the Welsh team responded with their anthem - an occassion which of itself led to the adoption of national anthems before tests. I'm unsure of the validity of this, but the person telling me was very convincing (and a bit of a pub quizzer).
Comments?
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If anyone has degraded or cheapened the haka it is the kiwis themselves who spontaneously slap thigh at the very hint of anything NZ-related. I remember the NZ swimming team at the Commonwealth games performing a haka for people coming second to last in their heats. That even raised the issue here in NZ.
It was special when you only saw it once a year, not every five minutes which is one of the reasons the other pacific islands challenges haven't been called into question. That and the fact they don't whine about it when the opposition fail to pee themselves with excitement.
Contrary to popular belief in NZ, Kiwis do not hold the exclusive rights to rugby, the way it should be played or whether or not their traditions are sacred to the rest of us.
And they call us 'whingers' or 'arrogant'.
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Fron now on we should only have teams play in black or white that way no one will have a problem. No sing at all, the only words that you can cheer are "yes" & "no".
No one can have a problem with that and wouldn't it be so much fun.
I'm a kiwi and doing the Haka means that we respect you and will bring our best game and excpet you to do the same. If we don't do the haka your not worth it so we'll send the women out to run you off.
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This doesn't really matter- the players are supposed to be preparing for a RUGBY MATCH, you know that thing they do as post-haka entertainment. If players/management are thinking about an appropriate response to it, well they are diverting their energies in the wrong direction. That said other teams should just ignore the Haka and get on with their preparation, because by factoring in the haka to their prep, they DO give the ABs a psychological edge, one they don't need. in other words CAMPESE GOT IT RIGHT.
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Who cares about rugby union anymore, never mind the Haka. The RWC has been a disgrace in terms of spectacle and value for money. At least the Haka has some form of spectacle.
Adding a pointless glorified morris dance to a pointless game in a pointless cup just creates pointless cubed.
The only highlight for this tournament has been Argentina and Tonga. Roll on the final and get this nonsence (Haka included) consigned to history.
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Stop whinging. The Haka is fun. It is even better TV. Which is why the ABs eyes pop out of their heads and spittle runs down their chins. It looks good. But it is a threat to no one. Daniel Carter is not going to roast your entrails. Not that guy. Coming back from his manicure?
As an aside, do you think Adidas minds every time the Haka is on TV?
But to be fair, the traditional AB Haka is THE Haka. It is part of rugby tradition. I am sure someone came up with this new one to show the new breed of ABs are 'relevent', 'involved'. In other words very PC. Therefore, its got to go.
And if someone wants to ignore it, ignore it. Who cares? It still makes good TV. And it's still fun.
And if someone wants a rejoinder, well, if it is reasonable, and someone has at least two brain cells and does not include any stupid throat cut gestures, go for it. This is all supposed to be fun. Right?
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Nothing wrong with the Haka being performed by "white" boys, PI's or Maori or combinations thereof. Nor for that matter is there anything wrong in how opposing teams choose to respond. I'm a football fan and it does bring something different to your game other than a load of dirge like national anthems.
Let the All Blacks carry on their tradition and let the oppositions choose to respect it or not in their own way. Lets not have any response defined by some PC directive from a bunch of Ruperts, Dai's, Jocks or Hone Heke's. Apologies to other nationalities for missing you out, in my shallowness i cannot think of other suitable stereotypical names.
Kia Kaha
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I understand the comments many have made, but as an expat living in NZ I have to raise the fact that many of the comments are made in ignorance. I am not an expert, but the Haka is 'performed' on a day-to-day basis in NZ. As a congratulation, as a welcome, as a challenge, as a farewell. It is a living part of the culture of NZ. As are many 'dance routines' of many of the pacific islands - note Tonga and Samoa. As to the tradition, the words change as time moves on, the tradition comes from the actual Haka itself. If we are not big enough to face the challenge laid then are we big enough to play????
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As a NewZealander I can definitely see the reason why their is a lot of negative feedback about the haka. It should be treated on a game by game basis - Sure in NZ do it as much as you want, but where the All Blacks are the visitors overseas, should ask permission to perform the haka like guests. On the Marae (traditional Maori meeting house in NZ) There is a lot of protocol and tradition. Although the rules are not what I am stating, they are however rules of respect. And respect means asking permission not arrogantly assuming it is our right. Maybe at the world cup it's a good spectacle to warm up the crowd? But it looks daft when the white dudes do it, it only really suits a maori. it's like the maoris trying to riverdance...
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This thread is getting a little bit petty, and doesn't do much to change the stereotype of "rugbyheads" being thick.
I think we are overplaying the importance of the haka. If you don't like it turn it off, if you don't want to face it, turn your back. Don't for a minute believe that the All Blacks being offended by Italy turning their backs is anything more than a journalist trying to put a controversial spin on a game which never reached great heights as a contest.
In the same breath, if you believe the nonsense about All Blacks targeting O'Driscoll on the Lions Tour for a perceived disrespect of the haka, then you would believe anything.
If the All Blacks have to perform the haka in their dressing room so be it, I doubt that it is gonna change the result of the game either way. They will still be pumped up as seen in Wales last year, if its that bigger deal, why don't other teams do something similar in the sheds beforehand themselves.
The over-riding feeling I get from reading the thread is that we are talking about peripheral things like the haka because the rugby to date has not been that spectacular.
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I remember standing in the western terrace at twickers whilst the Haka was being performed by a side that had wrought devestation upon the British isles (it was around 92/93 I think). It was the final match of the tour and it looked likely the All Blacks would return undefeated. The English team stood facing them and took the challenge. The crowd sang the English response back - we sang loudly and with passion. You could see the impact on the All Blacks as they realised the challenge had been met and we were ready as a nation, not just a team. The game was a might disappointing in entertainment value to an impartial spectator, however England won.
The point is that the crowd gave the reply. That is what the northern hemisphere teams have that the southern hemisphere do not - crowds proud to sing in unity. Ever been to an international in Australia - they have to sing over the loudspeakers to prompt the supporters as to what to sing and when!
The answer is therefore to learn the words to Jerusalem, to Swing Low, Sweet Chariot (and not just the opening verse!), to Bread of Heaven, Flower of Scotland, the Marseillaise and any other song associated to your country. Then as the Haka finishes, do not clap and scream. Stand, place hand on heart and start to sing as if your life depended upon it. Make the eardrums bleed and the hearts grow. Repeat as necessary during the game and we will have done our bit. Now if only the selected players could do theirs...
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The problem is not the haka, otherwise everyone would also be complaining about Samoa, Fiji, Tonga, etc.
The problem is that no matter what the English, Scottish, Irish, Welsh etc do, they'll always get totally thrashed and humiliated by the All Blacks.
The crowd loves the Haka. Look how much the Welsh crowd bleated and complained when the AB's didn't do the Haka on the field last year.
Sort your own game out people and start playing some half decent Rugby. Then, and only then, may you save yourselves from the abject humiliation meeted out to you every year by the AB's.
You look like a bunch of namby, pamby, extra soft sooks.
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Somebody is having a laugh here? It is precious to the South Seas guys. Does a serious pro rugby guy from the
NH get psyched by it? If they do they should be sent somewhere to get some help.
I know lots of people who don't give a monkeys about rugby but when they see the HAKA - in any form - they are warmed to the sport. It's a part of the game. It's
what makes this sport unique. Tell me you ain't that dumb?
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That's ignorance, Mr Cotter. There are many versions of haka - Ka Mate was the one adopted for the All Blacks for most of their history, Kapa O Panga is the newer, more relevant version. Therefore, the tradition of All Black haka has not changed, only the version they exercise.
And I assume that in your haste to rant, you forgot to include Samoa (with their Siva Tau), Fiji (Cibi), and Tonga (Sipi Tau) in your argument? That makes 20% of World Cup teams performing their ritual war dance... or is your argument only concerned with NZ doing it?
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If we are looking at English (& Welsh?) medieval war challenges now more widely used "as a living part of the culture of" this island nation why look any further than the Agincourt Salute. Two fingers raised to prove our continued potency (admittedly as bowmen).
Morris dancing is fine if you want an excuse to get together with some mates outside a country pub and work up a mild thirst but 2 fingers seem to me to be the appropriate response to a symbolic and ritualised challenge rooted in archaic warfare.
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Post 206, Firstly, they weren't banned from doing it. Wales requested their anthem be played last, the All Blacks said okay and did the Haka in their dressing room, not the tunnel. Secondly, they still went on to thrash you without the "psychological advantage" of doing it face to face with the opposition. As this showed, New Zealand doesn't have the right to perform it publicly. By all means request it not be done, but not allowing it means the crowd are cheated of the spectacle, the opposition are cheated of the chance to face it, the All Blacks will be even more psyched up, and are still going to win.
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re the haka debate
1. NZ is a country made up of many different people--just like England, France etc. Thats why they have Fijians, Samoans etc in the team. Big deal? thats modern life in much of the world.
2. There is nothing 'wrong' with non-Maori performing the haka, in fact, this also reflects modern NZ society and a changing acceptance of tradition--as long as the performer respects and understands the intention. A Fijian doing a Maori haka repectfully is actually a great thing if you think about it
3. NZers like it when other countries challenge the Haka--thats respect
4. I say keep the haka in rugby, it gives it another dimension, part of the great game and its traditions
5. people love the haka, it stirs them. Rugby should be proud of it
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Seems to me its the same people all he time who wine about the haka. Usually its people who never played a game of rugby in their life. These people also seem to be supporting teams who are regular losers when they face the AB's. You wouldn't see a South african not face up to it or not want to face it. New Zealand league teams does the Haka every test against the aussie's and majority of the time they lose. I think the gap in skill levels between NZ and many of their northen hemisphere rivals has become so vast that your looking for excuses. "lets blame he Haka" instead of looking at the structure of rugby, coaching, and development. If you want to stop the haka then stop singing "sweet low sweet chariot", or "The Fields of Athenry" in the middle of the game when the rest of us are trying to focus on he game. The haka doesn't seem to have helped NZ win too many world cups as well. The soccer is on the other channel if hugs and kiss's is what you want to see.
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i'm a scot. the haka was about the only entertaining and even passionate part of the 'test match' on sunday.
i only ever hear criticism of the haka from journalists, or people who have it in for the all blacks.
having as kaaoke version of land of hope and glory or waltzing matilda after the haka always seems pathetic, petty and a boring delay.
players should relish the opportunity of facing a haka immediately before a test. and for that, i've never actually heard a PLAYER complain about it. or say they don't like it becasue they get awfully intimidated.....
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There seems to be alot of whining P.C do gooders about......if you do not like the Haka then go make a cup of tea!
Personally i think it is great to watch.
As for this "It gives the Kiwis an unfair advantage blah blah blah" what alot of rubbish, they have an advantage before they even get to the Park, it is called ........BEING THE BEST TEAM IN THE WORLD!!!!
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Well Done Kiwi Mark! The first spot on comment on this blog. Seeing the haka performed by the All Blacks, made up mostly of players of European, Maori and Polynesian island descent symbolises what modern NZ (or Aotearoa) has become.. a melting pot that includes the largest Polynesian population in the world with a proud warrior and rugby tradition and 'can do' ethos that the early colonials needed, to settle in a rugged, often hostile and isolated environment.
As there are no full blooded Maori left the haka and the silver fern etc bring together hopefully) all cultures that make up 21st NZ united behind their rugby team that aspires to set new international high standards in their national game which the rest of the rugby world set their own standards by. I may be wrong but I suspect most rugby loving NZers respect the haka far more than God Defend New Zealand, why not do away with that instead if their opponents bleat about a psychological advantage.
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Ok folks, lets just remember what this is all about-entertainment. The whole sport thing is now about entertainment, and if its not entertaining then no one will watch. Then what happens? No sponsors, no tv coverage and no more sport. The Haka is entertainment. I love watching it and even enjoyed the throat slitting aspect as I did not find it particularly offensive, just a challenge to the other sides.
Don't let rugby go down the same road as football, where UEFA and FIFA try to ban goal celebrations or anything remotely entertaining about the game.
I am not a Kiwi, but a proud Scot. I don't believe that any of the international players would be intimidated or psyched out by the Haka, and if they are then maybe they are in the wrong sport.
Lets just enjoy the spectacle, and allow the Pacific Nations to do what they do. If they are going to ban the Haka, then maybe Flower of Scotland should not be played with pipes any more and the English fans should be banned from singing that "swing low" thing. NZ win because they are good. Not because the rest of us a scared of them.
Get a grip people and enjoy the games!
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Should the English, Scots, etc not juts line up in two rows, the first row kneeling, the second row standing, take aim with imaginary rifles at the haka, and fire at will.
Then point to the union jack on the NZ flag and say proudly, "ours"....
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Come on Jock, are you really so small minded? There was more skill and enthusiasm put into performing the Haka on Sunday than the whole eighty minutes the pathetic Scots managed after it. (At least it gave the home fans something to cheer, there was nothing else later.)But I suppose it's okay is it, for fifty or so of your lot to dress up in Rod Stewart wigs, skirts and glue on chin stubble and rampage round the England team lining up at Murrayfield screaming death to the English (after they've paid us of course). Come on fellah, it wasn't the Haka that beat you, just be grateful you were on the same pitch as they were. You didn't deserve to be.
Mike Towl
Lagos
Portugal
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At the moment the haka is the only interesting thing happening at All Blacks match, especially when teams like the Scots field a second team. It would really be nice for the All Blacks to be challenged in the pool games for once - I'm glad that they might be playing France in the quarter finals this year!
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I can understand how the Poms don't respect the traditions of the Haka ... send me an email and I'll explain in a "season's greeting" card to you!
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Yes, let's ban the haka ... and while we're at it:
- Ban NZ from playing in "All Black" (perhaps pink might be a more soothing colour?),
- Give both teams a ball, and
- Do away with the score
C'mon boys, I know the rugby hasn't be great at the RWC, but let's focus on the game ...
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I think the English team should respond with a full version of Swing Low complete with actions.........
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You can whinge all you like about the Haka, England. Why not re-arrange the deck chairs on the Titanic whilst you are at it?
You have the right of reply - just like your fans at Twickenham who like to boo you off the pitch after your "rugby" display.
I look forward to your world cup exit on Friday.
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Since none of them have a team this year that can beat the AB's on the field, once again the 91热爆 Nations have to start moaning about the haka and make ignorant comments about our so-called "poached" P.I. players.
How boring and repetitive.
The haka is a spectacle and one of those things that gives international rugby it's rich flavour.
It's funny how France, South Africa and Australia don't mind the haka,that's because they actually plan to beat us in a game, not look for an excuse.
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I think teams should be allowed do this when it's Haka time!
Can't remember what the kiwi reaction was afterwards, but I will never ever forget this moment when Big Willie Anderson got the whole team, crowd and country (those watching) revved up...
Shame we lost!
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The whingeing about the haka from opposition fans has only just started up in the past decade because they think the All Blacks win because of it. What a load of british superstitious rubbish. It helps the All Blacks win! Indeed. As a NZder I don't need to remind you lot that the All Blacks do not always win. In fact, they've choked at every world cup since the first one! Unfair advantage my bum. By the same logic, Samoa, Tonga, and Fiji are worldbeaters because of their hakas.
I think people have only started whingeing now because the All Blacks actually do the haka properly. Before 1986, the haka was disgracefully done. It resembled a jig in the park. Now, the All Blacks do it properly, and everyone gets their knickers in a twist because it is no longer a novelty but it has been transformed into this megaforce that makes the All Blacks win. Well, the All Blacks have been winning most of their games since the early 20th century, pre-1986. Are you going to say that the haka jigs in the park prior to 1986 helped the All Blacks win? It is a ridiculous argument. The All Blacks win because they play better rugby. Not because of the haka.
The haka is most definitely a tradition peculiar to rugby. And why not? Rugby should keep its traditions - the hymn-singing crowds, the beers with the opposition after the game, the jersey-swapping, the hakas!, the presentation of caps etc etc etc. It makes rugby unique amongst the world's professional sports.
So many people here are also totally ignorant of past 'responses' to the haka. When Willie Anderson advanced his Irish line, the All Blacks were greatly honoured. Buck Shelford said so himself after the game. THAT is how you should respond to a haka! When Richard Cockerill eyeballed Norm Hewitt, the All Blacks didn't mind one bit. That is exactly how opposition teams should respond. When the Springboks advanced at the 1995 world cup final, nobody complained.
As for Brian O'driscoll complaining about the "All Blacks reaction" after the throw in air gesture, well the All Blacks should sue him for defamation. NOBODY IN THE ALL BLACKS COMPLAINED ABOUT THAT. NOBODY. Brian must've made it up.
Get over the haka people. It doesn't give the All Blacks any advantage, and the All Blacks do not complain if the opposition players want to advance upon them, or the crowd sings songs in response or over them. It does get a little galling though when national bloody unions want to choreograph things to deliberately get at the All Blacks by putting the haka before the national anthem. Let the haka be done after the anthems, let the players respond however way they want, and let the crowds sing over the top or however they want. The British need to stop their constant whingeing over this bit of rugby tradition.
....Oh and Kapa O Pango is A haka. Just like Kamate is A haka. No haka is THE haka. The 1905 'kamate' haka was different to the 1935 haka which was different to the 1955 haka which was different to the 1986 haka. Why not have a new haka as part of the two hakas performed by the All Blacks?
Get over it.
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RE Declans comment 52
"I like the Haka and respect the AB's but slightly less so than if the team were actually full of New Zealanders as it patently isn't."
All of the All Blacks are New Zealanders, IRB rules preclude non national being represented.
If your gripe is that they were not born in NZ, all the "immigrants" arrived in New Zealand during their schoolyears, unlike the professional sportsmen who entered Australia under the "Sport Visa" and now represent Australia.
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I suggest the Scots do "the dashing white sergeant" or an eightsome reel. Would need a sub to make 2 sets, right enough. A Gay Gordon might not be suitable, can't think why
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i ceased to have any respect for this ritual when the ridiculous throat-slitting gestures were introduced, and now refuse to call it by any name other than 'the silly dance'
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Perhaps if Ireland, by some miracle, do end up playing NZ they should get some nice girls to Riverdance DURING the game like cheerleaders: it may distract All Blacks. If it does not then at the very least future NZ opposition can wonder out loud during the Haka why not and the Irish in the crowd will have the pain of ineveitable defeat dulled by 50 pairs of shapely legs. My preferred option is that Ireland remembers that they CAN play.....
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As always with these comments, most people read what they want to read into a debate, don't make a proper attempt to answer the writer's points and then bring their own agenda. The chippy Kiwis, who bang on about the Haka being "a spectacle" and that the NH are only sore about it because they are scared of the All Blacks, haven't even attempted to address the writer's point about NZ getting special treatment. Nor have they explained why the All Blacks are so "precious" about teams ignoring their little dance. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE do it in the dressing room in future (and then see how long it continues as a "tradition").
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Agree completely. Also remember seeing the Haka at one cold game when pre kick off the All Blacks did their aerobic work out and the other team allowed their muscles to get cold.
Just because someone issues a challenge does not mean you have to respect them for it...plenty of challenges are made on a regular basis that we all have to ignore or at least not allow them to intimidate.
If for example a team wants to respond to this antic in their own way ie the scots in Braveheart or Sid James and crew in Carry on up the Khyber, then so be it.
One team challenges another before the game and the other team has to stand there and respectfully accept it.....is this balance?
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I think you need to go away and do some proper research about what a haka means, which is what you probably should have done before you wrote this article. There has never been one haka, there are many, and they can be created so your point about tradition is ignorant and wrong.
Also the other team can respond to the challenge - surely you have watched NZ play Samoa before, since you are such an authority on the game. But singing a song is not a challenge and neither is singing an anthem - its an anthem! So do your response then - there's no problem.
There is an accepted way to face the haka, but if you chose to ignore that then so be it, and all the better to NZ - do you understand what that means if you do that Mr Authority?
And once again there is a lot of comment above about NZ being made up of many different cultures - correct it is! Go away and do some research about the current make up of NZ society and the forces of immigration at play in that part of the world, then write your comments on here. Ignorance - and a large chip on most of your shoulders. Do you here NZ complaining that 13 of the Samoan team were born in NZ but are now playing for Samoa?
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As a kiwi, the haka connects us with our country, our culture and our rugby history. It is far more important than our pointless national anthem and outdated flag.
The way I see it, those who think the haka should be cancelled have zero appreciation of rugby history. The game would be much poorer were the haka to be banned. In fact, the mere suggestion is rather offensive and only shows the complete ignorance of the original author.
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Is it just me or does anyone else see the massive overdose of irony when a team mostly made up of white anglo-saxons performs the war-dance of a nation that they tried hard to wipe out?
It's like white Australians doing an Australian Aboriginal dance...I guess it's lucky there's some left from whom to learn.
Or...white South Africans dancing an African tribal dance.
None of these will erase the recent history and associated guilt of the white settlers.
All that said, NZ could go out, do a riverdance, morris dance, whatever...then play in corsets and victorian dresses and still wipe the floor with the best that the NH can serve up this year.
NH sides should exercise their right of reply or whatever it is, or simply turn their backs just to wind the kiwis up a little more. After all it makes them play even blindingly better rugby.
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I think they should do it in the changing rooms like they ahd to do against...... Wales I think.
That way they their bit of traditionalism and the athems come after.
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Oh how I miss the days when the British turned up and responded to the Haka with great rugby rather than interminable whining!
I find the Haka to be one of the truly unique things about this sport that we all love. I enjoy watching it and love that it gets the fans fired up at both ends of the park. I feel it adds far more to the game than it takes away, and can't help but pity the grey legions who want to make rugby as uniform and sterile as the rest of their tepid sports.
If you want to see insipid little wastrels bowing to public pressure and permanently aware of the cameras then I think the football is just starting over on Sky sports 1.
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Good to see the haka's getting under your skin !
Would love to see your front row doing the lambada - lets just hope they're better at it than they are at scrummaging !!
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I don't think any of you are entitled to comment on something you have never faced - having had the oppotunity of facing the Fijian and Tongan Haka's as a school boy it fires the person faceing it up as much as those performing it!! It is a challage to war and rugby is the modern day version of war so enjoy watching it - let the players enjoy performing/facing it and find someting more relavant to comment on like when are the ref's going to invoke the crossing laws properly!!
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As an australian, the only thing we have ever responded with is waltz sing maltida, not very motivating!!!
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Couldn't agree with you more Andrew...
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I WATCHED BOTH FRANCE AND KIWIS AND I THINK THEY ARE POOR SPORTSMAN AND COCKIE THEY WILL BE BEATEN AND I WILL ENJOY THE MOMENT. KIWI no1 AT MURRAYFIELD WHO WENT IN WITH HIS HEAD SHOULD HAVE BEEN SENT OFF.GOOD TV COVERAGE BUT AS IN SOCCER TO MANY EXPERTS
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If the NZers wish to perform the Haka when playing at home so be it. That should be their right.
When they are playing away or in tournaments outside NZ then it should be dropped compleetely.
Why should the other team stand there like gobshites to indulge this crowd just so they don't throw a hissy fit ala Cardiff last year?
Let them perform it in their dressing room if they insist.
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Oh dear, dear, dear !! What a bitter lot a few years of poor rugby has turned the northern hemisphere into.
The haka is a rugby institution.....people talk about throwing toys out of prams, this is what the article is and what most of the responses are. I am an ex-pro and love rugby and all of it's traditions. Watching the Boks front up to the haka is a pleasure, it has psyched them up to produce performances over and beyond their abilities at the time, as Oz Du Randy will attest to. And as for situations where NZ meet Tonga, Samoa, Fiji (and the wonderful Nuie Islands) they face off against each other.
These are not dances as so many have ignorantly stated, they are prayers, drawing power and strength from the earth and sea to fill their bodies and spirits so that they are ready for the battle ahead.
So quit with the whining and embrace rugby at it's best.
We should be more concerned at the gulf in rugby skills, never mind the haka...if people put half the energy into building the game as they did in their responses, we might not be worlds apart once the game begins !
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Quite Agree.
This traditional stuff is nonsense.
While we're sorting that one out also get rid of the notion that one country can have 3 teams (England,Wales,Scotland) playing in the same competition.
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The easiest way to solve this debate? Poll any debutant test player from a team playing NZ. "Want to face the haka?" bet 95% would say "damn right" they having grown up watching the game as kids. The legacy is not NZ's alone but the rugby playing world's. Face the Haka and you've reached the Everest of the game, same as playing a test on Twickenham or any of the great grounds. Each Union has it's history...Lansdowne, Murray Field etc part of "ours and your's" is the Haka. WE have a special game with quirky special bits, hang on to them...the future may not be so thanks to political correctivness.
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I think Andrew Cotter raises an interesting point. Either the haka - or should it be "a" haka - is a harmless bit of theatre, in which case the ABs should be content to perform it before any other part of the starting ceremony - or it is a serious rite - in which case perhaps it should be performed in private - or it is a means of gaining some sort of advantage - in which case it should be stopped. I would have been inclined to support the second possibility exept that the NZers are too precious about any criticism and its use in commercial advertising reduces it to the level of a theatrical performance.
As a matter of interest, my father could remember hakas danced by NZers with Maori blood who were in his squadron during the war.
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The longest, and in quickest time, blog so far?!
C'mon let them do it if it makes them feel better. The real talking is done on the pitch. The ABs would not feel so good about doing it if they were an average team (has there ever been an average AB team??).
When other teams, especially NH ones, can beat them on a regular basis, the haka will lose its significance.
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As a Welshman, I've watched All Blacks sides perform the Haka since the mid-1950s.
The manner of performance has changed hugely over the years, but the crowds in the stadiums have always seen it as good entertainment.
I don't think the Haka gives New Zealand any big 'psychological advantage'.
But if it does help fire them up, then the same could be said of their watching opponents, who shouldn't be on the field if they let the Haka demoralise them!
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I think they should be encouraged to revert to the traditional 70's version:
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Its not the haka that makes new zealand have an advantage it's the fact they have a better rugby team. i don't remember it being a problem to England fans four years ago when we had a competative team. Stop winging england fans. Enjoy the spectacle and concentrate on playing better rugby
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As a Kiwi I have always supported and loved the Haka. Doing our own one before games at college certainly got you pumped to smash the hell out of the oppostition. In regards to other countries response to it--All of us loved it when the Irish and Scots used to form a line and walk towards the AB's--good on them!! Why be intimidated from the start--plus it sets the tone up for an awesome game.
Keep on with the Haka, but good on to any team fronting up to it!!
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Haka? absolute nonsense. Has nothing to do with rugby. Why should the opponents have to watch this outrageous piece of mind twisting. National anthems only prior to a rugby match. If they want to do a Haka then in their dressing room before,after or any other time. This is supposed to be a civilised world not one where one team is allowed to play their WAR DANCE and insist their opponents watch and show respect to their antic's. Do they need to act this way prior to a game,are they so lacking in respect for their opponents? Give it up and grow up. If England were to dance with bells around their knees and the Scots do an eightsome reel would they be prepared to watch and show respect - no laughing allowed, that would be disrespectful? Haka - give up and grow up. Chuck
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Typical whining from the English.
It seems there is nothing wrong with the other Pacific Island nations' war dances to you myopic cyclops' in England.
You just don't get it do you people?
The haka can be greeted by the opposition in whatever manner they see fit - the All Blacks have no choice about it. By the same token, the All Blacks are entitled to get offended or precious about these reactions to the haka.
Perhaps all you outed closet haka haters should worry about the sorry state of English rugby and stop wasting time moaning about pre-game ceremony.
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I could understand them doing the haka if they were all Maoris. A lot of them are Anglo Saxon, or remember Sean Fitzpatrick, mmm surely Irish ancestry. What about all the Fijians, Samoans and Tongans who play for them.
Let them carry on with, but let the opposition do whatever they want.
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I agree. The haka is a spectacle that should be reserved for friendly matches at best. At a World cup there is no need for it. The hosts have the advantage of playing their games at home but otherwise there should be neutrality in matches. I still think that teams that face the haka with tracksuits on and take their time getting ready after it are doing the right thing. I am sure the Australians won't have Waltzing Matilda blaring out in France as they do at home games.It annoys me that they continue to do it and seem to have a hold over the IRB. it is time it changed.
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I don't know how I feel one way or the other about the haka but this is the most amusing World Cup blog I've read so far. Thanks for making me chuckle.
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the Haka is entertaining and possibly intimidating to those not prepared to accept it - however a response is definitely required as it is a formal challenge. Perhaps we should have the manners to execute a reply with either the brazen courage of a Regan walk in a line extended (not holding hands or hunched together) to within their nostril hairs or ask a Guards band to march straight through them when leaving the fild - either way it is extremely bad manners for them to think they can have a final say after any national anthem has been performed. just because it has been done before does not make it a tradition and certainly not a right.
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grouchmonkey has clearly never been at Twickenham when the English National Anthem has been sung, because he would have to accept that it can be and is a stirring song when rendered by 70000 voices.
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What is all the fuss over? I think the haka is brilliant. The Kiwis only have a psychological advantage over you if you give it. I think there is nothing more exciting than watching the haka and George Gregan staring down at them. Personally I think its Gregan who gets the psychological advantage. Does a stare get any more intense! And as for all the nonsense about non-born Kiwis - grow up. We live in a world of moving populations and both Australia and New Zealand are proud of the various heritages and cultures that make up our countries. We are lands of migrants and it doesn't matter what your birth certificate says - its what is in your heart.
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The Haka, I Love it!!!
I do agree however that there should be a right to reply. Or as has been stated have the haka following the NZ anthem but before the opposing teams anthem.
Personally though i dont think the england team should morris dance, the way they are playing at the moment the birdie Dance would, be more appropriate!!
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Shaun M - I, for one, am not questioning the right of naturalised New Zealanders to play for their country.
What I do question is the consequent relevance of a war dance that has no historical and cultural significance for them and pleanty of other All Black players.
For me, the Haka is nothing more than a bit of extra team bonding just prior to the match. Anyone who says it is not used to gain psychological advantage is plain wrong.
As to whether they should be prevented from doing it, I'm not really bothered either way. The challenge for every team in this world cup is to find a way of beating them during the 80 minutes.
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Talk about a lot of namby pamby whining.
So the only reason the All Blacks win their matches because they get to do the haka just before the game starts?
Oh please! Grow up and grow a set of.... Its been quoted by international players already that if you are intimidated by the sight of it you shouldn't really be on a rugby pitch at all.
And finally as for the professional/amateur issue, yeah you're right. Lets drop every tradition that makes rugby interesting and embrace professionalism with its multi-coloured splotchly jerseys and socks.
Complete load of rubbish.
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I thought that the only reason that the Haka is performed is because the British requested it for a tour by the All Blacks around the turn of the century. So, point one, it鈥檚 our fault in the first place.
Number two, there does seem to be some sort of right to reply. The Aussies have introduced a camp fire rendition of Waltzing Matilda for home matches. I鈥檓 not sure this does much to get the home team fired up because when I鈥檝e seen it the whole thing has been more Camp than Fire.
Third, we were treated to the Tongan Haka last weekend. Even sat looking at their backs it was enough for me and my three friends to get angry and fired up enough to be willing to go and line up with the England squad. It鈥檚 a bit like standing in the street and having some bloke walk up to you and say 鈥榳ant a fight鈥. The sensible option is to say no and go away, but when you鈥檙e dressed for the occasion, have warmed up and just had Martin Corry shouting in your ear for the last ten minutes about passion and pride鈥 well, why not!
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mark starr in post 255 - surely as an Australian you've responded to the haka best of all teams, perhaps along with Eng & RSA - you have won the World Cup more recently!
The true gripe most people have with the All Blacks is not the haka - its a fabulous spectacle and if that's helping to beat other sides, well then how pathetic must those opponents be??! - its the use of Pacific Islanders in their team. Maybe NZ should be rebranded as the Pacific Lions?
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I have agreed with the sentiment of this for some time. It must be frustrating for the opposition to have to stand there and watch knowing that anything they do will get them in trouble (with the press but more importantly with the 20 stone out house they just offended).
How about all nations submit a proposal for a pyshcing up thing before the game - would improve the rugby if you ask me.
Serious suggestions...
Scotland - lone bagpiper and a flag bearer
England - couple of BIG drums banging away with a flagbearer
Ireland - ok, I have run out of ideas now!
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Hear Hear!
'nuff said
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In November 2006 The Haka was held in private on Saturday in protest at Wales' plan to "respond" with their own national anthem. Also, believe it or not the ABs wanted an apology from the WRU afterwards.
Ive always understood the ABs doing the Haka, take any advantage you can over the other team. What Ive never understood it the opposition having to stand still and behave respectfully to this War dance. Fair dues to the Italians and aussies who completely ignored it or the Irish a long time ago when Willie Anderson was captain, they all walked right up to the ABs faces during the Haka. It just doesnt have the ame 'blood curdling effect whan the opposition are practicing lineouts at the far end of the pitch.
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I've been to AB matches in Australia where the crowd has responded with 'Walzing Matilda', and in Wales where the response has come in the form of 'Cwm Rhondda'. So, there has been a right of reply in the past, I see no reason why there shouldn't be one now. Perhaps then the onus is on the other nations to come up with an exciting and motivational response . . . sure beats whinning.
As for the 'new' Haka not being traditional, Haka is simply a generic word for Maori dance. Just like Scottish Highland dance, it is not restricted to the one form. I cannot think of a reason why the AB Haka shouldn't be allowed to evolve, for it is Haka that is traditional, not 'the' Haka.
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Keep the Hakka. Not only is it a crowd pleaser in its own right but it is unique to Rugby and should not be lost, or watered down by stupid tit for tat 鈥渨ar dances鈥. It appears to me that the PC Brigade within and without the Rugby establishment are the ones who want rid of the Hakka. I don鈥檛 hear any players complaining. Should the Hakka be lost, where does it stop? Do golfers stop wearing colourful clothing in case it puts other players off? Do we stop football teams like Celtic forming the 鈥渉uddle鈥 in case it is more advantages over other teams? I think not. As a former Rugby player I feel that any team facing the Hakka or its ilk, uses it to their advantage. If any Rugby player, especially at International level is going to be intimidated by a lot of shouting and gesturing then they should not be playing Rugby in the first place
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Agree with all who say that opposition should treat the Haka as they wish. It is not that traditional anyway - brought in in the seventies I believe and as i'm 42 tradition does not mean in my life time. Perhaps England in the semis could meet it with some Northern dancing to, say, the Happy Mondays. We could bring 'Baz' on with his triangle or whatever he played. That'll scare 'em. Sorted!
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Fine, respect the tradition but there is no obligation for the other side to "passively partake" in it. Let the New Zealanders do the Haka, and just go and line up for the kick off and wait for them to finish.
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Good subject Andrew.
Despite some silly little people taking the opportunity to throw all sorts of vitriol at you, the huge number of posts here is a clear indication that there is enough opinion to make the haka a worthy blog subject.
It's a slight shame that some people don't seem to understand that a) part of a journalists job is to provoke thought and opinion, and b) that this is all really very good fun.
It's a great thing that there are many other people that do. I've been laughing constantly for the last 45 minutes at some of the writing here. Marvellous stuff. Chill out New Zealanders - you're supposed to be enjoying yourselves.
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I don't know why the other teams stand in a line and take it - they should walk up the other end of the pitch and ignore them, or at least put them off by blowing kisses, putting a loser sign on their foreheads, or supplying some appropriate hand gestures.
i always fancied england responding with oops up side your head (gap band) with the team doing that rowing dance.
seriously though the ref should sin bin the lot of 'em for time wasting at the beginning of the match- they will have ample time to do it while england are getting a ball out of a ruck!
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The haka is accepted as a part of the tradition of playing against the All Blacks and is expected by most rugby fans around the world, look what happened when the ABs got all "precious" in Cardiff last year and did it for themselves in the dressing room. They were almost booed off the park.
If you don't like it, take the Aussie way, they keep their tracksuits on until the haka is finished then while they are taking them off they get John Williamson to lead off in rousing versions of 'Waltzing Matilda'. The first time they did it it killed stone dead any psychological advantage from the haka.
David Campese also took the view that the haka was for the ABs not for him so carried on with his warm up ,,, didn't always work mind, but on a number of occasions it did.
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I am amazed that the NZ team havent choked half way through the Haka yet........four more years boys..........
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There is nothing to stop the other teams ignoring the HAKA and going down the pitch and forming a huddle while the ABs do their Haka.
Personally i like the Haka and am not against it as it is a cultural way of saying " we aim to ---- you"
After all why do people from the American Republic have to bow to a Duchess of Whatever at Wimbledon when they won the War of Independence that gave them the right to do away with all that Royal humbug.
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Lets be clear, when New Zealand win they do so because they are better than their opponents. Anyone suggesting a top international Rugby player contemplating his imminent role in a severely physical and mental battle is put at any disadvantage by a dance is wrong in my opinion. If that effected them they were already at a disadvantage.
That said it is just a challenge and should not be held as an inviolable expression of New Zealand or Maori culture. So opponents should be able to do as they see fit as surely is their right.
However take away the Haka before kickoff and Rugby will be much the poorer for it. I might even have to start watching International Association Football again.
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I agree with the general view of many so far that the haka is a strange conundrum at the least.
Whilst (having both travelled and lived in NZ) the importance of such cultural practices are intrinsic to the Maori people, I do agree that the use of it in a sporting context doesn't sit well with me. It is not so much the nature of it being a "violent challenge" of sorts to an opposition, it is more that as more and more indigenous societies modernise, it gets harder and harder for them to keep hold of those cultural practices that they hold so dear. By utilising it in a sporting arena in itself is I believe a misuse, but more importantly, when few (and sometimes none) of the players performing it are not actually from an iwi, it is in essence almost an insult. Ever stroll through a European city and see a blond haired bohemian sort sitting cross legged busking with a didgeridoo and think, "I'm pretty sure he's not an Aborigine?"
So in it's context, I feel the All Black use of the Haka is innappropriate and since almost all international rugby teams are no longer enthralled by it, me thinks it is kept for one reason and one reason only.... theatre. (And theatre that along with sponsorship, branding and advertising is a nice little money earner.)
So if you accept that it adds to the mystique and romanticism of an international rugby match, then bring on the fireworks, half time entertainment with Justin Timberlake and let's get the crowd chanting "DEE - FENCE, DEE - FENCE"... it's only fair.
Ban the Haka or make all NZ teams perform it, yes even their America's Cup crew and their Ladies Lawn Bowlers.
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Anyone who doesn't like it should follow a page out of Campo's book and go chuck a rugby ball around while there doiing the haka.
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Quite right the opposition should be able to respond. The first time the Welsh National Anthem was sung at Cardiff was in response to the Haka. The players apparently huddled together and sang it with the crowd joining in -that must have given the players a lift?
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I used to love the Haka. But now things have changed. The kiwis have been blighted by an outbreak of political correctness throughout their land. We now have to endure the natioanl anthem in 2 languages (ala S Africa) and are expected to remain in utter silence during the haka to respect their culture. Well stuff em - after that throat slitting gesture I will be singing "Swing Low" at the top of my voice during every haka they perform at Twickers like the crowd did in November. That throat slitting gesture showed no respect and I applaud the Welsh in their response at Cardiff.
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Perhaps we should let the NZ side perform their tribal dance but let the opposition respond with something like 'come and have a go if you think your hard enough!'
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I think Mr Cotter knew he'd get a lot of responses when he started this blog!
I was at Murrayfiled on Sunday as a Scotland supporter and the most entertaining action on the pitch all day was the Haka. It is one of the reason's so many people paid the extortionate ticket prices at Murrayfield to watch the AB's.
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Once upon a rugby match ( as good rugby fairy stories begin) between a good Scotland team ( yes it is a fairy story) and New Zealand.A quiet hush desended over the crowd as the Haka was about to begin at the first gesture a member of the Scottish team was heard to sing "Humpty Dumpty sat on the wall" This was clearly heard by the baying masses and the dark forces (The New Zealand team and supporters). Other members of the team were seen (on TV) winking and blowing kisses to their opposite numbers. These small jestures up set the All Blacks. Scotland still lost (in a fairy story Scotland would win but this is a real story alledgely) but the score was closer than expectected. The point is if the Haka is meant to intimate the opposition, the other team is professional and should use ways to show that they will not be intimated by a New Zealand morris dance.
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All said and done it has nothing to do with the Rugby or for that matter any sport(I don鈥檛 recall the Cricket team ever performing the Haka) It鈥檚 just an aggressive intension 鈥揟hroat slitting an all.. Opposing teams should be allowed to respond in kind鈥..
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I don't like it. They mean it. Remember what happened to Brian O'Driscoll, on the Lions tour, after they pumped themselves up on it. But, if it is good crowd entertainment, then let them do it without the other team in the middle of the pitch . Let them stand on the sidelines and treat it as spectator sport.
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Oh crikey, not this old chestnut of an argument again!
For the record, there's absolutely nothing new in Andrew Cotter's moaning little rant - its the same old argument rolled out by English sports "journos" (and the odd Welsh one) whenever they need to fill a gap in their publication, and obviously quickly.
It's pretty boring, really, as is all this monotonous nodding of approval by English "rugby fans".
But here's a thought - why do English "rugby fans" seem so keen to see the spice taken out of the sport? Why focus on taking away, when you could be looking to add to the spectacle...? In other words, English "rugby fans", come up with something of your own!
Sure, us Kiwis might have a quiet chuckle while the Aussies bang on about Matilda, but we love the pre-match efforts of the Tongans, Fijians and Samoans.
I even like watching this English obsession with drop-goals and penalties, when real teams are focused on scoring tries... It's the variety of rugby that makes it so great.
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Can someone please explain how a Moari tradition for laying down a challenge in battle has anything to do with rugby. I am fairly certain that the Maoris did not play rugby before Eurpean settlements and therefore fail to see why it is used before a rugby match.
And to all of the All Blacks fans going on about how great your team is - true, they are the best around but I don't remember anyone saying they weren't.
I really don't think it offers a psychological advantage to the All Blacks but really don't understand the need for this ridiculous dance routine. Your preciousness about this is quite unbelievable.
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I think it would be absolutely hilarious if England faced the All Blacks wearing Morris Dancing outfits and performed a traditional Morris Dance routine in reply to the Haka. The sight would be priceless and indeed would be a very good comedy sketch for anyone interested!
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I'm afraid Andrew Cotter has got it totally wrong about the Haka.
It is a great rugby tradition, welcomed by supporters around the world. OK it has evolved and changed over time but so what?
Opposing teams can do whatever they wish while it is being performed and there have been many wierd and wonderful ways of accepting the challenge thrown down.
If it was me, I'd stare the All Blacks straight in the eye and just give a simple nod at the end. Challenge accepted, let's get on with it.
Andrew Cotter can go back to his politically correct background and blog about something important.
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Being a Kiwi(and all black supporter) i find it very interesting what 'the other side' think of the haka being performed. It seems the general way of thinking is that it should not be performed or at the very least a right of reply should be allowed. I personally dont want to see the haka stopped, this is due to the cultural/national pride in the all blacks. However i do agree in a right of reply (and was embarrassed about how the all blacks handled the welsh game in 06). For the best example of this watch a bok v all black game at loftus and see how the locals reaction to the haka fires up all involved, it truly makes the spine tingle. I would not want this lost to rugby.
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All this nonsense about the Haka is total rubbish.Why don't all of you write to your respective unions and suggest how they can pay better rugby to be able to compete with the top nations.Us South-Africans do our talking on the pitch, not moan about a minute long war challenge and btw if the Haka scares your players maye they should take up soccer
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I think it would be absolutely hilarious if England faced the All Blacks wearing Morris Dancing outfits and performed a traditional Morris Dance routine in reply to the Haka. The sight would be priceless and indeed would be a very good comedy sketch for anyone interested!
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I am english and have absolutely no problem with the AB,S doing the Haka.
I agree wholeheartedly with Brian Moore that if you are intimidated or have a problem with it you shouldn,t even be on the pitch.
More importantly if you are going to critcise the haka at least know what you are talking about.
The throat slitting version does not imply cutting your throat and the roots of the haka are not anywhere near as tribal , war mongering or offensive as the Tongan or Samoan if you really claim to be that bothered.
Also I witnessed in Cardiff not so long ago the welsh national anthem, followed by bread of heaven followed by yet another singer coming from the crowd and walking round the pitch trying to get the crowd wound up ! No one bothered to think that was over the top !
Get over yourself any true rugby fans would have no problem with the HAKA.
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The traditional scottish response to a challenge is to go up and give them a butt to the head.
I really like the haka but it is a total unfair advantage, and I would quite like to see the Scots perform the Haka back at them .
See how they like not having the final word.
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I think the Hakka is great and i agree that teams should be allowed to perform thier own versions if they chose to. I once saw South Africa vs New Zealand in a Tri-nations game in south africa and once the Kiwi's had finished thier Hakka they were challenged by a line of traditional South African Zulu warriors. This was an awsome sight and would love it to become a common part of SA rugby.
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I realise no-one is going to read this at the bottom of all the other comments, but wanted to add my two penn'orth anyway. I don't object to the Haka, I find it interesting the players who really psych themselves up doing it, and those who look like they're trying to remember the right moves. From what I've seen so far Tonga and Samoa are much more convincing. In terms of the home nations response, I think they should sit on the pitch while the Kiwis dance their little socks off and drink a mug of tea. I rather suspect that nonchalance is a better riposte than anything else we could come up with.
Unrelated to the topic, but please could some of the numpties who post comments at least read them through before clicking on 'post' there are a few up here that are completely illiterate and make sense to neither man nor beast due to typos and crap grammar. Sorry to come over all school marm.
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I don't like it. They mean it. Remember what happened to Brian O'Driscoll, on the Lions tour, after they pumped themselves up on it. But, if it is good crowd entertainment, then let them do it without the other team in the middle of the pitch . Let them stand on the sidelines and treat it as spectator sport.
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Yes, we're all fed up with the All Black's haka, anyway Samoans, Tongans and Fijians do it much better. Did you see those challenges they threw at each other last Sunday in Montpellier? That was believable.
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I don't think that anyone is suggesting that the reason the All Blacks are so successful (outside World Cups) is because of the haka, or that opposition players are intimidated by it or that Northern Hemisphere, and particularly British and Irish, sides don't have some serious issues to sort out. Some of the counter arguments here are of the "ha ha, your jealous, we're great" type, which rather misses the point of the article. I don't especially like the haka, particularly the new one, but don't have a problem with it being performed provided that the All Blacks don't get all precious about the response to it, which smacks of wanting their cake and eating it. For the first time in my life I find myself agreeing with David Campese whose response was to go off and practice on his own in the in goal area. If all teams did that and concentrated on their own game then the haka would cease to be an issue - it could be performed in the name of tradition but no more. Incidentally, footage of the 1973 Barbarians v All Balcks game shows the All Blacks doing a (shambolic) haka facing the crowd rather than the opposition.
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Actually, prior to RWC2003 the IRB seriously considered banning the Haka during the competition. There were rumblings about it being an unfair advantage. Apparently the voting was very close. Personally, I think it should be banned during RWCs, it can be done in their dressing room before hand if they so wish.
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Perhaps the USA should be allowed their traditional assault on a small oil rich country before they start as well (Romania may have to do...).
Good article, if your going to allow traditions either allow everyone or no-one, in fact the Haka is probably one of the least suited to a rugby ground in many ways.
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I suppose "God Save YOUR Gracious Queen" could be seen as monotonous to those of you that still have Her Majesty as their Head of State... and the person on your coins and stamps.
The Haka is great to look at, but.. In SILVER Shirts.. Please!!! At least keep it restricted to the All Black outfits.
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After complaints to the International Rugby Board about the All Blacks being allowed to motivate themselves by performing the haka, other nations were asked to suggest pre-match rituals of their own. The IRB Rugby World Cup 2007 Organising Committee has now agreed to the following pre-match displays:
* The England team will chat about the weather, wave hankies in the air and attach bells to their ankles before moaning about how they invented the game and gave it to the world, but no one appreciates them.
* The Scotland team will chant, "You lookin' at me, Jimmy?" before each of them smashes a bottle of beer over his opposite number's head.
* The Ireland team will split into two, with the southern half performing a Riverdance, while the Northerners march the traditional route from their dressing room to the pitch, via their opponents' dressing room.
* Unfortunately, the committee was unable to accept the Welsh proposal to form a choir and sing Tom Jones' It's Not Unusual.
*Two members of the Springboks will claim to be more important than the other 13, whom they will imprison between the posts. These two will then go about selecting the best parts of the pitch to settle on and claim that they have been there for centuries.
* The Italian team will arrive in Armani gear, sexually harass the female officials and then prepare pasta dishes, which they will flog to the crowd for a fortune.
* The Japanese will shock fans by demonstrating how to capture a whale for scientific research by harpooning an opposition prop.
* The Australians will have a barbecue on their side of the field and invite the opposition over before the game. The food and alcohol will be in abundance and by the start of the game no one will remember what they came to the stadium for. After some streaking, the singing of dirty songs and the occasional chunder, everyone will go home thoroughly convinced it was a bloody good night.
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I believe that all this hulabaloo about the haka being the last say for the all blacks is nonsence. any decent smart person would see that it is a rugby tradition not to be exploited by other nations and to be respected. For as any rugby fan knows the haka is a world symbol of rugby and i hope that they continue to perform it as it makes the game what it is...
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build a bridge.
get over it.
Worry about the game itself, because there are 2 pacific nations that would love to 'war-dance' Wales and England out of the world cup this weekend.
You rarely hear any of the non 'home-nations' teams complaining about the haka, so why make a big deal? Aussie and SA thrive on it almost as much as the AB's do when they play one another in the Tri-Nations.
Concentrate on supporting your teams this coming weekend - they'll be needing it by the looks!
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You've not got a clue. The haka has been part of the New Zealnad game since it began. Why should it be stopped now
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Having had to watch the haka for many years now, I'd have to say that the only remotely interesting thing about it is the response it gets from the opposition team. Most seem to stand still in a boring straight line, I much prefer the reponse of those teams that march straight up to the challenge and end up nose to nose, or ignore it completely like Campese used to.
I want to watch the quality of rugby they produce, not their attempt at a war dance. But they seem to have become all precious about it in recent years, when not long ago it was a joke to everyone and more akin to the morris dancing someone mentioned above.
I can't dispute the quality of their rugby, I can admit to being bored by the haka.
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Ok we established so far the responses for :-
Scotland, some jumping around some swords.
Ireland, jumping around kicking legs without moving arms.
England, Morris dance.
Wales, throwing sheep.
Italy, hire Mafia hit man.
France, go on strike, blockade all ports, burn the sheep that the Welsh threw.
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Wow, methinks the frustrations we all experience at the airport have gone to your head and you rushed to the internet kiosk to vent.
99% of people love the haka so the sour grapes brigade and the 'NZ are pacific island poachers' crew should instead try playing chicken with a bus.
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As I understood it, the first time an anthem was sung at an international was when the Welsh fans responded spontaneously to the Haka in 1905 by singing our anthem.
That was why the game on the aniversary of that game in 2005 had the Haka before the Welsh anthem. And why Wales fell out with the Kiwis when they wanted to do the same in 2006.
So I think there is a strong argument for having the Haka - all be it a much more serious version than there was pre-Buck Shelford - but only to have it before the anthems. That is the true rugby tradition!
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When the AB played Wales two years ago they performed their Haka inside changing room.Only beacuse they did not want to do it befroe national anthem as the the Welsh RFU demanded.
There was was no pshyc advantage for them on that game. But the score was .....you know..I do not know what is the fuss is all about...AB still won games without performing the Haka on rugby field..May be its about time to talk more about the game itself rather than the Haka...
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I think we should go back to the traditional haka. Watch a game from the 60's or 70's - that's what you want. A bunch of grown men playing a schoolgirls game of pat-a-cake!
There's nothing traditional about the modern haka and not many of the team are maoris!
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Maybe you should just relax and be less insecure. At the end of the day anything that adds a little bit of colour to rugby has to be good for the game.
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You raise a good point. Teams should have the right to reply and I doubt the AB's would have a problem with this. Most other countries just don't seem to as passionate about their cultures thus they don't offer a reply which is sad.
Teams from the Pacific Islands have always replied to the haka with their own war challenges (Haka is a Maori word and thus only applicable to the NZ challenge) and it has always added greatly to the event.
Any traditional reply from the home nations would certainly be more entertaining than the type of rugby they are playing at the moment. It would probably be scarier too... so bring it on.
The new Haka was designed to better represent modern NZ. NZ is now a multi cultural nation with Maori, European and Pacific Islanders living together and this is represented in the AB's. The new haka embraces this diversity.
I also doubt the AB's care too much about how teams react to the Haka. Tradition shows those teams that do ignore it lose by a big margin. Its great motivation for them so do as you please.
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Why do we persist with the National Anthem dirge when we have 'Land of Hope and Glory', which when sang by a full stadium really does make the hairs on the back of your head stand up in a way that the Haka never can.
I found the Haka against Sctland overly aggressive, especially when the game is moving away from physical confrontation and more dependant upon athleticism and skill. Is there any reason why opposition stand there and watch it so intently, why not simply ignore it.
Or better still how about inventing a Haka of our own, based on the fertility rites of Morris Dancing with especial reference to Bean Sprouting? The image of Simon Shaw waving a his hanky at the All Blacks would be an accurate reflection of the state of the game at the momenet.
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Unfair advantage? How about the Scots getting a free ride courtesy of the slimy deal done with France that ensured they faced the All Blacks at home 鈥 now that borders corruption. The All Blacks and the Wallabies were drawn the short straw this world cup through this dodgy NH deal and pathetic arguments about a haka just smell of chip on the shoulder NH winging when even home games against the mighty SH teams still can鈥檛 produce a win for you. Haka or no haka the All Blacks have a distinct unfair advantage and it鈥檚 called talent. NH nations have none. Can鈥檛 wait to see the French get stuffed by the AB in the quarter-finals in Wales 鈥 a great and fitting way for the 鈥渉osts鈥 to exit.
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Somebody asked what the All-Blacks reaction was to Ireland and Willie Anderson in 89. I remember Buck Shelford saying afterwards that they had no problem with it, that the All Blacks were laying down the challenge and that Ireland accepted it. Made for a great atmosphere and Ireland might well have won that game but for their dodgy Aussie import Smith who missed a pile of kicks!
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Your just jumping on the "haka". You seem to have completly forgotten that Fiji, Samoa and Tonga also throw down their traditonal challenges before a game. No disrespect but in the Pacific (being a Fiji Islander), tradition is an integral part. Just come and watch Fiji vs Samoa in Apia or Suva, or NZ vs Fiji in Suva. Then only you will appreciate the symbolism of these traditional challenges.
Come on, this is a game. Let it be entertaining. The Haka does not take anything out of the game. It gives more.
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Its unreasonable for one sports team to be allowed a special, extra ritual at the start of an international match. Allow each team, say, 1 minute, before the commencement to do its cultural/tribal thing - be it an anthem, a dance, or a blend of both.
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Get a grip !!!! The AB's may gain a psychological edge just before kick-offs but it doesn't affect their superior: handling, fitness, passing,rucking, scrummaging, kicking....need I go on. I also agree with the other people on this blog who have pointed out that the Haka is a great viewing spectacle, which ultimately attracts people to the game
However I do take issue with them cherry-picking all the best south sea islanders when there is enough talent in NZ. Can someone tell me why Rodney So'oialo plays for the AB's but his brother Steve plays for Samoa ? How is the game going to develop if we keep holding back nations outside the top tier ? Jonah Lomu is a great example, no longer required by NZ but what an asset (both playing and financially) he would've been for Tonga.
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the gripe some bloggers have about NZers using Pacific players is nonsense.
If you follow that argument, then there would be no African or European migrants allowed in English football teams...
Spanish and Mexican migrants not allowed to represent the US?
etc
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Mate, I do believe you've got it all wrong. Ban Welsh hymns, Aussie Waltzing Matilda, Allez les Bleus, that Pom masquerading on the sideline in his finery.
When the ABs did the haka in the sheds before playing Wales, it caused more of a stink than on the field. It certainly didn't help the Welsh.
The haka is part of rugby. It is loved and respected by New Zealanders and the vast majority of rugby supporters.
Funny how those who have a crack at the haka are normally the blokes who can't play for peanuts.
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Adam if you look at the history of the Haka it has not always been part of the NZ game. Admittedly they have performed a version of it off and on (usually on tour not in NZ in early days) It is only since the 1980's that it has really become part of the 'folklore'.
If you think they have had always had a frightening haka then look on youtube at the 'old meets new' clip from I think 1979 its comical half of them are looking embarrassed and don't know the moves. Hardly the ferocious history that cannot be tampered with or sold out (to Adidas maybe!!)
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I can't see what the big fuss is all about, I can't see why the throat slitting gesture was such a big deal... unless they secretly found a knife in a few of the AllBlacks socks!
Personally, I think the problem lies with the opposition. If the All Blacks want to do their "big box little box" routine, go down the other end of the pitch and throw the ball around, warm up... Don't encourage them. Ignore them.
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This blog has certainly raised a bit of a storm!
Firstly no-one is denying how damned good the All Blacks are. Most of us are just bloody jealous of their talent!
I've thoroughly enjoyed watching the Haka for many years but of late the New Zealanders' attitude has begun turning me off it as a spectacle.
I don't get wound up by the Fijian, Tongan or Samoan versions simply because they're not so damned precious about it.
Well said Rusty in comment 183 about the Irish culture to show disdain for someone challenging us. Couldn't have summed it up better. Willie Anderson may well have led the Irish into the middle of the hak and accepted the challenge to the delight of Buck Shelford but he was lambasted by a considerable section of the media at home and in NZ for 'showing disrespect'. If you're going to throw down a challenge don't have a hissy fit because the gauntlet is taken up!
As for the cultural significance of the throat slitting gesture - it may mean 'accessing life force engergy' in Maori culture but it means something entirely different and offensive in the NH. Take that on board when 'cultural respect' is being bandied about.
If the All Blacks have the right to perform the haka then the opposing side have the same right to respond to it in the manner they feel best and that includes laughing at it, ignoring it or showing it total disdain. Just don't expect us to stand there and do nothing!
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I agree with SJ, the Haka is a great tradition, SA and Aus thrive on the challenge, take it face on and respond on the field.
It's a great spectical, keep it going.
And don't get to concerned, cause France are going to knock NZ out soon enough :)
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Nothing wrong with the Haka but there is some merit in the claim that if the New Zealandanders can have symbolise their warrior like tendencies, then other teams should be given the same opportunity.
England for example could line their players up after the Haka and then they all give the V sign to the All Blacks in memory of Henry V's archers at Agincourt.
It would also have the advantage of going down well when playing against the French.
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oppositions are encouraged to respond to the Haka, that's the entire idea of the challenge. The Fijians, Samoans and Tongans all perform their own variations of a challenge. Sometimes they even respond while the Haka is still going. and it's amazing to watch!
At the end of the day, the Haka doesn't make the All Blacks a good team. Hours of physical training, attention to detail and learning how to actually run with a rugby ball (as apposed to kicking it away every chance they get) takes care of that.
Maybe you should be less concerned with crying about other teams and more worried about why your team is so rubbish, with or without a Haka.
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It shouldn't make any difference when they perform the Haka. If the opposing team's players are not fired up enough for a match where they are representing their country then they should not be there. The Haka is a tradition but to think that it renders the All Blacks more fired up for the match is ridiculous. If you're representing your country you should be at the peak of readiness. Simple. Also, I imagine that facing the Haka could actually fire you up, in that it would make you really want to take them on, meet their challenge etc.
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why does everyone go on about a "response" or facing the haka. just ignore it. take your own players down the field and do a few passing drills. if the AB insist that it's just part of their prematch ceremony, then let them do it towards the crowd to rouse their own supporters.
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Maybe teams should just take a quick kick off, that'd stop all the monkeying about!
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The NZ team will still blow it before the final...........
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The Haka has been part of New Zealand rugby from the start. There are many Maori tribes and each has a different Haka or challenge. It is appropriate that the Haka can differ between games although I do like the traditional (call me old fashioned).
The Haka is a sign of respect for the opponent as well as being a challenge.
Frankly I have no problem if other countries wish to perform their equivalent of a Haka. Maybe it speaks more of the disinfected cultures of Europe that they don't understand or have the equivalent of a Haka that people should be more worryied about.
I for one think the pride shown when performing the anthems (by all nations) and haka are great. You should be proud to play for your country. Also I see more pride and passion shown in a Rugby anthem than say a football anthem. Wonder why that is!!
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The Haka doesnt bother me at all, and im a pom. As far as the right of reply to the Haka...well i recon it probably fires both sides up just as much.
The only thing that spoilt it a little was the multiple versions. I liked the long standing version, which in my eyes was the best. The Kiwis in my local pub seem to prefer that version too.
At the end of the day sport is not just competition but entertainment, hence the crowds, the revenue, and the atmosphere...but then i hate the cheerleaders in rugby league. Thats another subject all together.
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Anyone who thinks that I would like to see the Haka banned has misunderstood the point of the article which was really just a thought about the timing of it, the sometimes apparent precious nature of a response to it (i.e Wales 2006)and the tradition - or lack, with the new one - involved in it.
Like James in post 310, I do remember a time when The Haka was performed facing the crowd rather than the opposition.
Also, this debate about the Haka has certainly not been put out there to mask the huge and obvious inadequacies in Northern Hemisphere rugby at the moment - I just thought it might be an interesting talking point, which it clearly is.
Anyway, great suggestions so far for other nations possible responses, of which Dave (post 312) is just about the best.
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I feel that what you write is based more on frustration than anything. Do British scribes get frustrated with the Fijians, Tongans and Samoans when they do their pre-match warrior challenges? No, and it is because these teams are not at the apex of world rugby. As a New Zealander and part-Maori, I am proud of both All Black hakas. Most New Zealand schools have their own unique haka and mine was no excpetion. When we performed before a game it was very motivating to perform and accept a competitors haka. I don't suppose too many Brits can truly understand the value of the warrior challenge. The Australians try to respond with a crowd singing 'Waltzing Matilda' following the haka, but it doesn't have quite the same effect.
I say get a grip, embrace the warrior challenge, accept it and enjoy the Rugby World Cup.
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I would love to see the opposing captain instruct his side to put their tracksuits back on, disappear back down to the dressing room get stripped off and about 5 mins later (when the all black have been made to hang around for several minutes) run out up the tunnel to Swing Low/Jerusalem/Land of Hope and Glory/ Rule Britannia or such like. However I suspect their would be much whinging and moaning from our Kiwi friends about how unsporting and disrespectful such actions were.
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It鈥檚 not a Dance-Off, its rugby... play the game. Sing your anthems and get on with it.
If the All Blacks want to perform their X-Factor routine then let them lash at it, but the opposition team should be allowed to use that time to bring the boys in and do what they feel is needed at that moment, weather it be getting pumped up or a last minute tongue lashing.
I would love to see Jason White stroll out over no mans land to square up to Macaw, then Marcus Aurelius stylee, kneel down and tear a piece of the Murryfield turf up and smear it over the Thistle on his shirt, only to throw the turf at Macaws feet while saying something Heroic like "Nice Hair Richard... im gonna mess it up"!
Also the bore that is "Flower of Scotland" should be replaced with "Loch Lomond" by Runrigg.
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Once again we English appear to moan about the All Blacks. They are a great Rugby nation, with or without the Haka.
Perhaps real English supporters should try to find a way (And the players) to beat the All Blacks and leave the traditions of the game alone.
Should we change the rules to stop the All Blacks scoring tries to make it an easier for us to win?
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If the home nations spent less time whinging about what other teams are doing, and actually concentrated on how to play the game, then maybe, just maybe, they wouldn't be the joke of the world cup.
Honestly, you've got far bigger problems to worry about!
At the end of the day, the Haka doesn't make the All Blacks a good team. Hours of physical training, attention to detail and learning how to actually run with a rugby ball (as apposed to kicking it away every chance they get) takes care of that.
If you want to keep up with the rest of the world, stop blaming a pre-match tradition and try changing your naive attitude towards the game.
I won't be holding my breath.
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I loved seeing the Haka on the one occassion I had the fortune to see the All BLacks play all be it at Welford Road against England A. However I have always felt that it does give them or any other nation that has something similar, Tonga Samoa etc an unfair advantage. Having played this wonderful game anything that pumps you up just a little bit is going to make a difference. Even at under 12 schools level we had a warm up routine that made us look very professional. We believed it was worth 7 points to us against less organised teams. The Haka must have some effect.
Will Carling tried to ignore it and Richard Cockerill apparently over stepped the mark. Either abolish it or just get on with it and stop hiding behind an ever changing "tradition". Oh yes as an English response we could line up on the half way line and give the V sign. It's historical and traditional. Does anyone remember Agincourt?
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NZ dont always get the last word or last psycological advantage nowadays. Not with those clever Aussies anyway. They have a rosuing rendition of 'Waltzing Matilda' sang to the stadium by some random guy walking on the field of play waving the nation's flag. In my opinion an excellent idea to counteract the haka when the All Blacks are way from their own shores. I am pretty sure us Welsh took heed from that too, and some young bearded chap has been seen on the Millenium Stadium pitch singing 'Bread of Heaven' more than once. This certainly gets the crowd going and stops those wiley old foxes from NZ getting in the last word for once.
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whatever the All Blacks want to do is fine, just so long as Flower of Scotland is never again attempted to be sung to a brass oompah band like on Sunday. Surely a pipe band could be found in the Murrayfield area. Watching a second string Scotland team murmuring along to the skirl of the trombone isn't going to worry any opposition.
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I have no problem with the haka, per se, I just think it's unfair that the opposition have no right of reply. Richard Cockerill "accepted the challenge" in '97 by eyeballing Norm Hewitt(?) but the IRB then moved to ban players from doing this. And again the IRB protested after a simalr incident at the NZ-Tonga match in '99. Personally I'd like to keep the haka so long as the oppostion are allowded to face it in any way in which they choose (obviously within reason), they shouldn't just have to stand there like a kids on a school trip!
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I think the Haka should be preserved but the opposing team should be given the right to reply, whether it is to look away, sing their own national anthem or lift up their kilts. Someone mentioned the awesome sight of South Africa's reply to Haka in a tri-nation match, when they sent in Zulu warriors. That woudl be awesome, with an asegai, knobkerrie and a shield. I am all for that. Then we shall see who is slitting whose throat :):)
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We Welsh have a tradition of digging holes and tunnels. Were we to be allowed such tradition upon (under) the field of play the so-called All Blacks (did you see the Scotland game?) would be trounced every time.
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What particularly annoys me about the performance of the Haka is the tendency of the Kiwis to give opposition players and fans marks out of ten afterwards for the respect they have shown or failed to show for the spectacle. We are "required" to stand and watch and exude respect from every pore, which by and large we do but can never seem to do it to the New Zealanders' satisfaction. Apparently, 'this is why everyone hates the English, mate'.
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Face it - the haka is there to stay. I'd like to see other teams have a right-of-reply, but I'd not be so fatuous as to suggest Morris dancing, which served a completely differnt purpose to the haka (it's a challenge, not a 'war-dance' as some have asserted).
The fact that the haka and the lack of a right-of-reply gets to so many supporters of other nations smacks of a frustration that those nations can't get the results against the All Blacks.
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I notice that no-one has mentioned the Tongan, Samoan and Fijian versions of the Haka? Maybe if New Zealand weren't so good no-one would be compaining??? I think the much larger issue is that of the fact that most of the Kiwi's aren't from New Zealand anyway.
In terms of a reply, maybe the English team should serve tea and cakes to Kiwi's before the match, and then start complaining about the weather?
Or form an orderly queue!
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I agree with the majority of comments already posted. I know it is tradition but for who? How many of the All Black team have an ancestral lineage to New Zealand?
I do feel that other countries should be allowed to respond as it is a challenge after all.
For me the Cibi beats the Haka anyway.
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To say that the Haka or any other form of 'War' Dance gives an edge over the opponent is absolute c**p.
How many times have you seen Samoa, Tonga or Fiji whitewash or thrash their opponents. Come on people, get real, slate teams like England, Scotland, Ireland for not having the skill to face high class opposition.
You have one team NZ, who are far superior in every dept on the pitch, and you think they get this because they do the 'Haka', thats about as likely as England winning this world cup!!
Oh and it is traditional, the Haka is a general term for 'War Dance' or laying down the challenge, and there are different forms of it, namely Kama-Te, Kapa o Pongo, Sipi Tau, Thimbi. Please get it right.
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well, to me the hacka says "i am proud to be representing my country and when i put my shirt on you better get ready for me" and i must say that i only get that feeling when i watch the tri-nations play rugby. The rest of the rugby world seem to be happy to be there, but that's about it!!!
As for the original Hacka, hell yeah, anyday and bring back the throat slitting action too, it adds to the otherwise monotonous opposition attitude (kick in touch, drop goal, kick in touch, drop goal, Kick....)
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When will the UK journalists stop complaining about New Zealand? I am a Kiwi living in London. All we hear is how NZ have stolen pacific island players blabla, now the haka is unfair. Take a lesson in migration patterns and maybe look at NZ's ethnic diversity before feeding us more of this rubbish. Given that the world cup semi final makeup will almost certainly be an all southern hemisphere occasion, perhaps the scribes in the UK should foucs more on what has gone wrong with teams in this part of the world.
What would these same Journo's say if there was a ban on "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot" at Twickenham?
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The Scots should do as Brave Heart did before facing the English at Bannok Burn, Turn around and slap there blue arse's for 5 minutes before screaming out loud for a few more!!!
The English could peform the shadows walk...??
Welsh could do something from Steps back Catalogue (at least one of them was Welsh)
The Irish.. well every one does the irish Jig to a Pogues tune or a Val Dolacan tune..
French...Hmm in the few itmes i have frequented various Fest Noz nights in Brittany at random ruins!! they could do the joing arms and dancing in a ever decreasing circle.. lots of beer need to peform that one but a great night out.
The Aussies? - Two Little Boys by Rolf Harris!!
Italy - do they dance?
Portugal - The Ronaldo two step and dive
Getting hard now cannot think of anything for Romania and Georgia!!Any more chaps post em!!
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I have a suggestion.
The All Blacks should be allowed to do the haka, but only after the games has kicked-off. This should help give the opposition a 7 point start, apart from England, who would manage to get in a ruck or maul against themselves and deliver such slow ball that the haka had finished,
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Post 347 - maybe I'm confused, but aren't England still World Champions? Why do we need a way to 'beat the All Blacks' when they do it so splendidly to themselves in every WC semi-final anyway?!?
But seriously, clearly the article is not meant as an English attack on NZ, its just a general discussion point.
Love the haka though, and as its not exactly brought NZ all the victories they want, nor brought the Pacific Islanders that much joy, its hardly proving to be a stunning advantage. Maybe in some ways it helps pump up the opponents too?
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I think the only bit missing from this ridiculous ritual is the opposition team placing an upturned hat in front of the haka and throwing in some coins on its completion
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Keep the haka, perform it whenever (even during the game as individual players). Keep rugby the way it is too. Stop trying to change everything. If Eng were top of the pool and actually winning, you wouldn't be so pre-occupied about the small things of the game. Sure, have your own haka, but don't take something away from rugby... add to it for the benefit of all.
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What particularly annoys me about the performance of the Haka is the tendency of the Kiwis to give opposition players and fans marks out of ten afterwards for the respect they have shown or failed to show for the spectacle. We are "required" to stand and watch and exude respect from every pore, which by and large we do but can never seem to do it to the New Zealanders' satisfaction. Apparently, 'this is why everyone hates the English, mate'.
Mike Richands (#351), no one is moaning about the All Blacks. No one is questioning their undoubted pre-eminence in the game. No one is doubting that they are, and pretty much always have been, better than us. We are, however, expressing reasonable opinions about the performance of the Haka at the beginning of games, and these opinions cannot be so easily and lazily undermined.
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I am not so worried about whether the haka or don't they should stop steal the paffic island best players and stopping other playing by not releaseingthem for the clubs of training
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So I take it Fiji, Tonga and Samoa should also not be allowed then???
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The act of the Haka is the strongest tradition, not the words of the Haka.
There's more than two Haka's in NZ, surely the players are entitled to evolve the tradition so it maintains it's relevance.
(At whatever stage they are entitled to preform it.)
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This is a really interesting thread and have enjoyed reading a lot of the comments posted!
I don't have an issue with the haka being performed as I agree it's quite a spectacle to see... what I do object to is the expectation that it should be respected... that's an arrogant assumption to make... WHY should it be respected?
I love all the stuff mentioned above about Campo going down the other end of the field and getting on with warming up or the Italians going into a huddle etc.
Let's poke fun at it!
Would love to see oppo teams blatantly yawning in a comedy way at it or pretending to be looking at the time on their watches or laughing and pointing with incredulity!!!
Can anyone else think of other amusing ways to take the mickey out of them dancing just to annoy them?
Cheers!
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I agree. I have said for years that they should not be allowed to do it. At home in New Zealand, when their rugby authorities are in charge of proceedings, by all means. Who are we to say what goes on. But if I was the English (or French RFUs... or wherever for that matter) I would be saying not in our back yard. Why should they get this advantage?
Furthermore, it is a warrior challenge, involving throat cutting gesture. Does that have any place in SPORT?
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I agree. I have said for years that they should not be allowed to do it. At home in New Zealand, when their rugby authorities are in charge of proceedings, by all means. Who are we to say what goes on. But if I was the English (or French RFUs... or wherever for that matter) I would be saying not in our back yard. Why should they get this advantage?
Furthermore, it is a warrior challenge, involving throat cutting gesture. Does that have any place in SPORT?
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Regardless of what the opposition do, the Haka is essentially a shot in the arm for the All Blacks. It gets their blood boiling. If the opposition does react it gets them even angrier ! You're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't. If it's part of the tradition let them do it (and be televised) in the dressing room - all other teams do their motivational stuff in the dressing rooms - that applies down to Junior and underage rugby levels.
If the New Zealand are so concerned about the "tradition" of it, make them remove the Adidas logo from their "All Black" gear too - wait and see how quick that idea would be shot down !
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I am not so worried about whether the haka or don't they should stop steal the paffic island best players and stopping other playing by not releaseingthem for the clubs for training
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I enjoy watching the Haka, though like many have said how can you argue that something is traditional when it has been changed unrecognisably from the "real" tradtional one?
I would like to see the Haka either diallowed before a match, or that the opposition can respond in any form or shape they wish. though i do not think that the riverdance, morris dance or the "kilt showing" would be the best way to respond :).
I do not want to see the Haka, however, never again at rugby. It would be a great way to open a tournement with something so entwined to the tradition of rugby, in the same way each country opens a national tournement almost.
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The Haka is all well and dandy, it perhaps does give the Kiwi's a little initial psychological lift - but it's an entertaining little moment, nothing more.
What I'm amazed at is the opposing teams respecting it by standing there facing it, why on earth don't they just go and continue with their warm up and let the Kiwi's do their funny little dance by themselves - and it would lessen the lift they give themselves, they'd probably feel a bit silly.
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I personally like the Haka, but I think perhaps it should be done before the anthems, that way any effect is diluted. Anyway I sure that 15 blokes big enough to play international rugby are unlikely to be phased by the Haka.
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I used to work for your grandfather, Andrew, on the family's newspaper. I suspect that he would have faced the modern haka more in sorrow than anger or awe. It's a pantomime, and the pity is that others are being allowed to ape it, for example the Samoans, with their interminable war dance, which must be designed to bore rather than intimidate. I suggest that the Scots put the practice in a proper context by adopting the Gay Gordons as their pre-match dance.
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Yes!!! I definitely agree and have had countless arguments about itwith others. Ifthey want to do the haka fine, but the throat slitting is ridiculous, and they don't have a right to expect other teams to watch it if they don't want to.
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I personally like the Haka, but I think perhaps it should be done before the anthems, that way any effect is diluted. Anyway I sure that 15 blokes big enough to play international rugby are unlikely to be phased by the Haka.
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I think we should out the Haka in perspective. Does it really give NZ a psycological advantage or at the end of the day are the All Blacks just a superior team? If England were playing with such flare, skill and passion at the moment then maybe we would be talking about rugby...not the Haka. (And yes, that's coming from an Englsih supporter).
Apart from that, the Haka is a fantastic tradition. If I were an opponent on the pitch at the time, I would try and absorb some of that energy, which at times can make your hairs stand on end....not stand there moaning.
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I have to say that I don't find the Haka all that intimidating, I find it hillarious and end up laughing all the way through it. I wonder why other teams who face the Haka don't laugh at how ridiculous the All Blacks look when they do it. I think it is pointless to stand there waving your arms around and poking out your tongue to the opposite team and any way how come its only the All Blacks, Samoa and Fiji who do a pre match warrior dance thing anyway?
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Haka
The Haka used to be performed to the crowd in the main grandstand and not to the opposition. Why not return to that. Performing to the opposition is wrong ... where will it lead, to a full jousting on horsback?
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I agree, as a rugby player myself, that any extra mind games played out before a game on the pitch should be limited to just the national anthems.
I love watching the haka but maybe it should be done prior to the anthems. What gives the NZ players the god given right over any other team that because of a tradition in their own country they can travel it around and mould it into what they want to gain an advantage over another team.
As for the English anthem - perhaps Billy Conolly had the right idea and they should use the Archers theme tune!!!!
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Just a note on the tradition of the Haka, I beleive the new Kapa O Pango haka has more significance to the present day All Blacks than the original Ka Mate haka that started life with the first official 1905 Originals All Black tour. I see Ka Mate as really being on loan, be it a very long one with the following Kapa O Pango translation bringing the All Blacks into the 21st century and hopefully to glory...
Kapa O Pango kia whakawhenua au i ahau!
All Blacks, let me become one with the land
Hi aue ii!
Ko Aotearoa e ngunguru nei!
This is our land that rumbles
Au, au, aue ha!
It's my time! It's my moment!
Ko Kapa O Pango e ngunguru nei!
This defines us as the All Blacks
Au, au, aue ha!
It's my time! It's my moment!
I ahaha!
Ka tu te ihiihi
Our dominance
Ka tu te wanawana
Our supremacy will triumph
Ki runga ki te rangi e tu iho nei, tu iho nei ihi!
And will be properly revered, placed on high
Ponga ra!
Silver fern!
Kapa O Pango, aue hi!
All Blacks!
Ponga ra!
Silver fern!
Kapa O Pango, aue hi!
All Blacks!
Go the Blacks ... kia kaha (stay strong)
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Perhaps the England team could face the haka whilst displaying the gesture made famous by the archers leaving the field of Agincourt?
That's a similar gesture of challenge that comes directly from people fighting for their lives - however, because of several more centuries of civilisation, we appear to have moved the v sign out of the box marked "culturally important" and into the box marked "rude and offensive".
So let's get back some of our "warrior heritage" and remember what this is all about. Come on boys, flick 'em the v's next time they start dancing.....
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I love watching the Haka, but I would love it even more if opposing teams responded the way no doubt tribes being challenged by Maori warriors responded in the days when the Haka really was a prelude to war - with derision, contempt, and a few choice gestures of their own. The Haka isn't the secret of All Black success, but it obviously helps them psyche themselves up.
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My what a hornets' nest you've stired up. I think the Lions should have a variety of dances... not sure about the Morris dancing idea. I think it should be something more cutting edge:
3) The Macarena
2) The Time Warp
1) (my favourite) surround the All Blacks and sing the Hokey-Cokey! (and actually make contact the 'left leg in')
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I'd very much like to see the English respond in true redcoat fashion by forming 2 lines, one in front kneeling and one behidn standing. The front line can aim and fire whilst the second line advance, kneels and fires whilst the other line reloads. Rinse and repeat advancing until you see the whites of their eyes, and then fire at will. Bayonets may be fixed if necessary.
Play a game of rugby after that!
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Perhaps rather than Morris Dancing, the English could form a queue behind the captain, facing the Haka looking at their wrists and tutting.
It can't get much more traditional than that!
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I disagree. I think the Haka is a part of rugby which should never be dropped simply because it adds colour and interest to a game we all love. As for The Blacks getting a boost from doing it while intimidating other teams, think back to the Rugby World Cup 95 final in Johannesburg. While New Zealand were doing their infamous Haka the South African side spontaneously banded together as a team and strode confidentally towards the Kiwi's. The effect ? A morale victory for the Boks and a seed planted in the Kiwi mind that they were in for a really tough afternoon which they were. So the point for me is that it should be allowed and its up to other teams to react to it in a way which throws the intimidation factor back in the faces of the Kiwi's. Its a wonderful part of the game which would be missed by all rugby supporters were it not done.
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Please let's get rid of all these dances before games, no matter which team does them. They are a quaint bit of ceremony, but seem out of step in a supposedly modern and professional game. If it means so much to the teams and their supporters they can do it during the warm up or in the dressing room or the car park - just not the way they are performed now. It's long past being interesting, even amusing at the sight of 15 burly men prancing about like they're reacting to a bad curry from the night before. I don't care about the tradition, I don't care about the sentiment, I don't care about the symbolism, and I don't think it gives any advantage to the team that chooses to go through these ridiculous and laughable contortions in front of the opposing team before the game. It simply wastes time and bores me, so enough of this nonsense please, let's get on with the game!
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I'd love to see the French doing a can-can !
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Anyone who watched a programme pre world cup would have seen Buck Shelford talking about how he loved the time the Irish led by Willie Anderson confronted the Blacks while doing the Haka. Unfortunately it only fired them up and they gave the poor Irish a good hiding so it's maybe not such a good idea. An alternative for the English would be to try and send them to sleep with a rousing rendition of swing low sweet charizzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
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Good Grief ...here we go again.
Why is the haka such an issue now? It never used to be. Is it because the ABs actually do it quite well now as opposed to how they used to.Or is it because they play their rugby better.
How come everyone doesn't get so upset about Samoa, Fiji and Tonga doing theirs ..?
It all smacks of jealousy to me. If it's not the ridiculous stories about Pacific Island poaching it's the 'Please Sir, it's not fair that they can do the haka ...'
I wonder - if the NH sides were playing well and beating us every so often would they be bleating on about the haka so much. I don't see the Australians or South Africans caring about it. The ABs could stand there and insult the Aussies and South African's mothers and I doubt if they'd care...because they know they play as good if not better than the ABs on their day. The NH sides are intimidated because they know their rugby is sadly lacking.
Instead of worrying about the haka they should be concentrating on getting the rugby right.
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I know what us English could do - Madness "Nutty Boys" dancing to the song "Baggy Trousers". I could just see 15 men in England kits performing the Chas Smash dance.
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The AB's want the haka, the Bok's have requested that they do a Zulu war dance (minus spears) but the AB's objected. So now you are the prematch police!
Either all can do a merry dance, or all can't.
I feel the World Cup should be above all other games. National Anthems and No shirt advertising. As for dances, leave it for a saturday night.
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The haka is suberb, I'm a Welsh fan and although in my 37 years I have never experienced a Welsh victory over the AB's, I love it. BTW - I was embarrassed about the changing room incident in Cardiff, petty and needless.
And why do the so many replies refer to the English response being a morris dance, is that the impression most people have of English traditional culture? I have never seen a morris dancer in my life and I wonder how many of you have.
And another thing I wish Wales would stop employing an accompanying singer when the anthems are sung, Land of my Fathers has been ruined in recent years by some Kathryn or Sian or whoever screeching it out at a far higher tone than many of the Westgate Street Massive can even hear. Keep it for the choir and crowd.
No, let's keep it as it was - haka, beer, honest scraps and settle the score on the pitch, like the good old days, that after all was it's original appeal to rugby fans all over, n'est pas?
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# 362..
What gets the Journo's is that they poach the best players and leave the other PI's with what is left hence the class gap between NZ and the PI's, I think that is what they are saying.
As for the Haka, why not do it in a prematch routine prior to the anthems whilst the teams are warming up!!!
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The ABs should stop doing the Haka. Never mind all the kids who are seated early so as not to miss it (like they were beside me at Murryfield). Never mind 100yrs of tradition. Sanitize and remove anything resembling tradition. Never mind that most opposition players enjoy facing it. Players are merely 'employees' these days, throw some management-speak their way (is Clive available ?). Never mind that these 'interpretations' of what the Haka means are provided by persons ill-qualified to opine. The bandwagon always has room for 1 more dissenter.
Johnny Middle-England doesnt want it then they shouldnt get it. Lets see what 'popular opinion' says after years of being deprived of it.
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All this whinging from the AB's, your sounding worse than the convicts.
If it is an all southern affair in the semis, then why aren't you letting the Argies into your mini comp? Then you can let the south sea islanders join in, and NZ's insular view of the world will blow up, bit like every four years when either the Aussies or Frenchies turn you over.
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Well, Brian O'Driscoll did the blade of grass trick for the Lions and was then promptly double spear-tackled for his troubles.
The Kiwis want it all their way...love the way they play their cricket, but their arrogance on the rugby field is summed up nicely by the Haka.
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The Haka is a tiresome, tedious bore. For God sake NZ, grow up and get rid of it!
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Being both a patriotic New Zealander and avid rugby supporter, I disagree with your comments regarding the Haka but do agree, however, there may be legitimate arguments both for and against it.
I am mystified however, as to why it is only the All Blacks that get targeted with this argument when Samoa, Fiji, Tonga and the majority of remaining Pacific Island nations perform some form of a "challenge" before sporting competitions.
It all seems very one-eyed to me and your biased argument makes you end up coming across like just another moaning English (non)supporter.
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I agree that it should not be allowed away from 91热爆. Do what you like on your own turf if it's your tradition, but don't impose it on other Unions as a must have right. I think the Welsh had the right idea of making them perform it in the changing room behind closed doors !
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I enjoy watching the haka but what annoys me is the way the tv shows it. Surely the spectacle of the haka is best seen as the opposition see it, ie from in front, en masse, not as the tv producers like to show it with close ups of individuals or even worse, as was shown against Scotland, from behind!
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I don't care if any of the South Pacific teams do or do not do their Haka. For those of us outside their cultural heritage it is a piece of theater and little else.
However when people begin to dictate to the host nation when they may or may not sing their anthem...well thats just arrogance isnt it.
As for the Haka being 100 years of tradition..the All Blacks prior to Shelford wanted to stop performing it as they felt it was embarasing (and their performances of it were).
As for it being a challange to be replied to, any and EVERY team that has done anything except link arms and stand there watching has been accused of disrespect.
Campo kicking a ball = disrespectful.
Ireland linking arms and walking up to the ABS = Disrespectful. (oh now a team is not allowed to enter the ABs half when they perform that Haka, so that 'reply' is no longer allowed by the IRB)
Italy huddling before their game = Disrespectful.
BODs, grass throwing = disrespectful.
Oh and singing 'Cym Rhondda' is also viewed as disrespectful.
So maybe when the Kiwis can work out what is and isn't disrespectful perhaps they might do the rest of us a favour and let us know (hint...this is one reason people aren't as upset at Tonga or Fiji, they just aren't as up themselves on this issue).
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Just keep it in and give other nations the opportunity to indulge in their own traditions at the same time. That way, while the Kiwis are busy stamping and making faces, the Italians and French would be stealing their girlfriends while the South Africans try and mug them, the English would be colonising their islands and the Scots and Irish would, well, they'd probably be getting drunk.
Everybody has fun and traditions are both maintained and respected.
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Willie Anderson as captain of Ireland responded to the haka with his famous flying V formation. He was heavily criticized for it and not allowed to repeat it as captain of Ulster the next week.
The 91热爆 should post a clip of it on this site, it is worth watching again and again!
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Isn't the haka derived from a traditional tribal war challenge and, if so, isn't there a traditional response?
Apparently, back in the days when schoolboys wore shrts and caps, a challenge for a fight would be issued by said cap being thrown doen in front of the person challenged. The response, as acceptance, would be to kick the cap.
Should the tram on the receiving end of the haka be able to resond to the challenge with a traditional gesture that infers acceptance of the challenge (i.e. the match) that lays ahead? Any ideas on this?
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The Haka is a great tradition for New Zealand rugby players and in fact for the whole rugby world. If you talk to the players that face the haka they will say that they find it helpful for their psychological game as well. I think it would be a great disrespect to New Zealand rugby and a great shame and dissapointment to the rugby community if the haka was stopped. It should definetly be kept!
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Again this blog thread is completely off tangent.... but maybe England could bring out an ice rink and do a dancing on ice number....
Frankly the two most iconic things in world rugby are the All Blacks and the Haka. Take away either and you take away from the brand (rugby) Addidas understand that and brought into it - along with most other sports, including now the London Olympics (dont see anyone complaining about that)
The number of people who first heard of rugby through the All Blacks and / or the haka is extremely high, and that is part of the reason why rugby playing fraternity has expanded so much in the last 20 years.
The Haka is significant marketing gold for the IRB and should never be removed or moved. Both for the historical context and for the global reach of the game.
Once any other country maintains a positve win / loss record against the All Blacks over a ten year period then maybe it can be withdrawn to history......
Considering how many native people live in South Africa its supprising they dont do a zulu dance or something eh ?
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Forge the Haka the powers that be seem to have banned another rugby tradition.
No game of rugby against the French was ever complete without several french cockerels being thrown onto the pitch with red white and blue ribbons round there neck.
Have they outlawed chicken from the grounds unless it comes in a polystyrene box with Mcdonalds on the outside?
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Whilst i love to watch the haka as a spectacle and think many rugby fans would be disappointed if New Zealand were not allowed to perform it, it is not the 'right' of the New Zealand team to perform it wherever they go, it is at the invitation of the host team. They would do well to respect that courtesy and remember their place in world rugby.
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I completely agree with the sentiment that the ABs have become too precious about the Haka while completely disrespecting other cultures. Their petulance at performing the Haka inside rather than allow the Welsh to respond with the anthem was just childish and shows a complete ignorance of Welsh culture.
At the beginning of the last century Wales was effectively just a province of England. We were a country beginning to assert and identity, helped by our new found place in the world as the main supplier of coal. Our rugby team was becoming an important part of our identity and a massive crowd turned out to watch our team play the ABs. During the AB haka the welsh crowd started to sing a song that was growing in popularity at that time - Land Of My Fathers (My Hen Wnlad Fy Nhadau) as a response to the Haka. The singing was enthusiastically taken up and this moment is pointed to as the start of that songs journey to becoming our national anthem and an important part on the road to us asserting ourselves as a country again. This is why, on the centenary of that game, Wales sung the anthem after the Haka. For NZ to now refuse Wales to continue to do so shows a complete lack of respect for a very important moment in Welsh culture and exposes the Haka for the goading, showboating it really is.
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Surely the ex-World Champs should do their traditional national dance in response to the haka - morris dancing
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Its not surprising that there is complaint about the haka again, also not surprising that it is only New Zealand that is "marked out" for criticism. Shouldn't the general complaint also extend to Fiji, Samoa and Tonga? They also choose to celebrate and acknowledge their culture before they play or is it okay for them to do it, just not the All Blacks.....
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I think some people misunderstand what happened with O'Driscoll. There is a welcoming haka that Maoris perform, it looks just as threatening. During this haka, the chief of the welcoming tribe places a feather on the ground, and if the opposing chief comes in piece he picks it up, if he does not pick it up that signifies aggression. The grass represented O'Driscoll picking up the feather.
ANyway in times past British redcoats would have responded by forming three ranks and blowing their heads of with muskets, so maybe that is what they should act out now. Phil VIckery could walk along the three lines shouting "Tight five - shoulder arms, back row - fix bayonets, Wingers present, and FIRE" followed by all the players pointing fingers and saying bang. The kiwis wouldn`t fall down dead, but they'd fall down laughing.
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In response to 'exileinwales', it was the 1905-06 All Black touring side to Britain who popularised the haka. It was performed at the first Test against Scotland on 18 November and against Wales . The 'Invincibles' that came to Britain in 1924-25 had their own haka, which was written by two fans on the voyage over. New Zealand lock Read Masters, in his tour book, recalled seeing the following translation of the song in the local press: 'Now we are in England feed us, feed us! Or we will tear you! Tear you!!!' Biscuits were sent to the All Blacks stating that in return the senders expected to stay in one piece.
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Get a grip for all of you who think the haka should be shelved. Why would you want to get rid of 100 years of rugby tradition - it's what everyone full bloodied rugby fan looks forward to when the All Blacks are playing. Let's be honest the national anthems for most of the rugby teams are pretty boring and England singing a song about black slavery is debatable. Bring on the thoart slitting
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Why does this topic always rear its head when England/Lions nations are playing rubbish Rugby, and are ALL likely to go out of the cup within two matches?
As for tradition. Every tribe would preform a different Haka before battle. Just like many High Schools in NZ have different forms of Haka. Changing the type of Haka, is not diverging from the tradition of a War dance or "Haka". May I suggest that the next UK journalist who brings this topic up, do some research into the cultural background of the Haka, before taking another cheap shot at a truly great Rugby nation.
If you want to go down this track, lets ban the Welsh from singing. Something that all true Rugby supporters would not want to see?
And as for the Pacific nations, a countless number of (NZ Born) players in the Tongan, Samoan and Fiji teams have been brought up through NZ age group teams, and play in our domestic competitions. More than those who end up playing for the All Blacks. Again, a lack of research or ignorance from the otherside of the world
Hows your Sweet Chariots going now?
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Wow, what an emotive subject; i read with interest and amusement in places, opinions, hidden threats and outright xenophobia (look it up!)
I am not particularly interested in the haka, new or old, but do not feel the need to stamp out something that others may find colourful. I agree that the timing could be changed so that it comes before the anthems (boring as they may be, but let's remember that these people are representing their countries - something that deserves a certain ceremony) and that way the opposition can react in any way they feel appropriate, walking away, standing face-to-face, or just continuing their pre-match conditioning.
NZ are not revered cos they perform the haka and it does not create a psychological advantage; they are revered because they are so good. It pains me to say that as an english rugby player but it's a basic fact. They have been accused of many things over the years,including being deliberately slow in getting out of the way at breakdowns, pilfering players from around the world by the notion once an All Black always an All Black, cheating by wearing specially designed shirts that nobody could grab, and introducing 'freaks' into their team (Carling's words not mine) but these are clearly just defeatist bleats! I have played against teams that were meant to destroy us, teams with international ringers, and absolute giants but the haka, and any other singing, dancing or insult flying has only ever had one impact on me as i trust is the same with anyone else that ever dons a rugby shirt, for club or country, and that is "Bring it on!"
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When you all learn to harden up, the haka is a challenge, and when a team is strong enough to face it, are not intimidated by it, and stand up to the challange and throw it back in the AB's face... then they might win.
The "new" haka is a coming of age, if you know anything about haka's then you will know that they are tribal... and the all blacks are their own tribe. Hence their own haka. It's not about having the last word before battle, when we play Tonga or Samoa, the haka's normally face off to each other. great stuff. It's about pride. There is no right or wrong way to face the haka, do what you like, continue training, get together in a group and ignore it. I dont really care. But would you like to give Jerry Collins and extra motivation to hit you even harder than normal as he thinks your desrepectfull. I wouldnt.
By the way, good luck with your respective campaigns, I hope you all start playing proper rugby soon as these televised all blacks training session are starting to get boring
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As an Englishman, I don't like the idea of any team playing England getting an unfair advantage. However, I agree with the para-phrased Brian Moore quote above: if you are going to let a little dance intimidate you, choose another sport.
As a sports fan and a traditionalist I like the inclusion of the Haka, but would like to see the return of the 'Kamate' haka, if this is actually traditional(?) However, if this is a true 'challenge' to the opposition: akin to the football terrace "come and have a go if you think you're hard enough" then surely the choice of response should not be down to the Kiwis! If an opposing team is required to face the Haka then the NZ team should be made to 'face' the response, whatever that might be!
Also, if the NZ team get all upset about any official response to the Haka, then I think it the role, nae duty of the fans to take up the mantle of official responders and sing/dance their hearts out for their respective national side!! I would love to be present at the next Wales vs. NZ match in Cardiff to hear the world famous singing prowess of the Welsh drown out the 'voice' of the Haka!!!
Come on boyos!!!
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Clearly Rob, the Englishman living in Aotearoa (#187) hasn't been living there long enough to get a grip on his environs. Rob states:
"At the moment there are no maori players in the AB's, it seems to me a little silly having someone called Mcaw, Carter and Mauger performing this Haka."
Oh dear, Rob. Get your facts straight In fact Dan Carter is of Maori descent, as is Luke McAlister, Doug Howlett, Leon MacDonald and Carl Hayman, as well as several others in the squad.
We are deeply proud of our Maori heritage at home. Long may the haka continue.
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Wow, what an emotive subject; I read with interest and amusement in places, opinions, hidden threats and outright xenophobia (look it up).
I am not particularly interested in the haka, new or old, but do not feel the need to stamp out something that others may find colourful. I agree that the timing could be changed so that it comes before the anthems (boring as they may be, but let's remember that these people are representing their countries - something that deserves a certain ceremony) and that way the opposition can react in any way they feel appropriate, walking away, standing face-to-face, or just continuing their pre-match conditioning.
NZ are not revered because they perform the haka and it does not create a psychological advantage; they are revered because they are so good. It pains me to say that as an english rugby player but it's a basic fact. They have been accused of many things over the years, including being deliberately slow in getting out of the way at breakdowns, pilfering players from around the world by the notion once an All Black always an All Black, cheating by wearing specially designed shirts that nobody could grab, and introducing 'freaks' into their team (Carling's words not mine) but these are clearly just defeatist bleats! I have played against teams that were meant to destroy us, teams with international ringers, and absolute giants but the haka, and any other singing, dancing or insult throwing has only ever had one impact on me as I trust is the same with anyone else that ever dons a rugby shirt, for club or country, and that is "Bring it on!"
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The haka, like the professional rugby, is all about entertainment - the crowd want to see it so stop your whining. The only way it can affect the opposition is if they let it intimidate them. The French say it helps their motivation. I think Mr Cotter might have a bad case of sour grapes! lol
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So I guess all the people complaining about the haka are equally calling for the Fijian, Togan and Samoan challeges to be cancelled/moved. Must be on a seperate blog.
In my opinion, the only reason people are focussing on the haka is because the AB's are winning. The idea that it gives the AB's a phycological advantage is quite frankly ridiculous. Want to know the best response to the haka, it's simple, beat the AB's. If you can't, take it on the chin, but don't start grasping at straws and trying to mess with a beloved tradition.
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When the ABs don't do it, everyone complains. When we do do it, everyone complains. As a New Zealander, I love the "new" haka as a statement by this team about their identity. Kia kaha.
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Many people hear seem to believe that the opposing team has to stand and face the haka...untrue, they may do whatever they like... warm up runs, sing etc (like campese kicking the ball to himself during the haka in the 90's)! Most teams like to face the haka. The haka is part of the Maori culture as well as part of All Black rugby heritage. It shows respect to the opponents as well as their All Black heritage. It is not just a wardance full of threats of carnage!
If the All Blacks are told to do it in the change rooms, then so be it, they would carry on doing it as it has great meaning to the men in black and the NZ nation as a whole... the fact that the Haka is such a crowd pleaser world wide is just a side effect.
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I remember when Australia played the All Blacks in the early '90s and when the Haka was performed David Campese went back to his on in goal and was kicking a ball around. Brilliant.
Ofcourse it created an international incident, which I cannot understand.
I say turn your back on it, or better still advance towards them so you end up eye-balling them, ala Sam Scott-Young for Australia in the late 80's.
Very quickly the focus shifts from the All Blacks to the opposition.
Having said that, so long as the All Blacks keeping peaking in between World Cups, they can do whatever dnace they like!!!
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Did anyone see Mock the Week - I'm afraid I can't look at the haka without seeing the "Cillit Bang, Cillit Bag, Kiaora ...." piece
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The haka, like the professional rugby, is all about entertainment - the crowd want to see it so stop your whining. The only way it can affect the opposition is if they let it intimidate them. The French say it helps their motivation. I think Mr Cotter might have a bad case of sour grapes! lol
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I like the haka and have no issue with it being done when it is. I think it can be used by the opposition as well as the AB's.
The issue I have is how setrious the AB's and their fans take it. "It is life, it is death" is one of the lines in the "traditional" haka "Ka mate".
But the fact of the matter is, it isn't.
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As an Englishman, I don't like the idea of any team playing England getting an unfair advantage. However, I agree with the para-phrased Brian Moore quote above: if you are going to let a little dance intimidate you, choose another sport.
As a sports fan and a traditionalist I like the inclusion of the Haka, but would like to see the return of the 'Kamate' haka, if this is actually traditional(?) However, if this is a true 'challenge' to the opposition: akin to the football terrace "come and have a go if you think you're hard enough" then surely the choice of response should not be down to the Kiwis! If an opposing team is required to face the Haka then the NZ team should be made to 'face' the response, whatever that might be!
Also, if the NZ team get all upset about any official response to the Haka, then I think it the role, nae duty of the fans to take up the mantle of official responders and sing/dance their hearts out for their respective national side!! I would love to be present at the next Wales vs. NZ match in Cardiff to hear the world famous singing prowess of the Welsh drown out the 'voice' of the Haka!!!
Come on boyos!!!
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No other major world sport allows such a ridiculous dance prior to kick-off.
Why don't the Kiwis bring a group of good-looking cheerleaders who could perform the haka in black bikinis at the side of the pitch during the match? If the players need to dance, they can do it during the national anthem.
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I remember when Australia played the All Blacks in the early '90s and when the Haka was performed David Campese went back to his on in goal and was kicking a ball around. Brilliant.
Ofcourse it created an international incident, which I cannot understand.
I say turn your back on it, or better still advance towards them so you end up eye-balling them, ala Sam Scott-Young for Australia in the late 80's.
Very quickly the focus shifts from the All Blacks to the opposition.
Having said that, so long as the All Blacks keeping peaking in between World Cups, they can do whatever dance they like!!!
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The English could take inspiration from previous international victories .....Bucks Fizz perhaps! The Scots could don some Proclaimers style glasses and sing about walking 500 miles (preferably away from the All-Blacks!) while the Irish could do a reworking of Enya's Orinoco Flow .... surely more inspirational than Ireland's Call? "Tie me Kangaroo Down Sport" by the Aussies and "Everything I do I do it for You" by the Canadians. The possibilities are endless. Anyone for Raphael Ibanez & Sebastian Chabal singing "Je t'Aime"??????
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It would be a shame to loose the Haka it is a good spectacle. However there has to be some physcological advantage on the way it is set up. Particulary the way oposing teams cannot respond.
As some people have mentioned above, there are some approaches that would be appropriate. Probably the best approach would be to require the Haka to take place before the national anthems. I don't think NZ would be happy about that though. All the hype up that they get from the Haka would be dissipated.
I think the alternatives could be entertaining. IF the All Blacks can do the Haka then clearly South Africa should be able to do their spear dance and other nations come up with something suitable they could do that was well.
Nations who don't have a "dance" should not be required to stand infront in "respect". They could go into a huddle or start warming up etc. I don't think they should be allowed to mock the Haka though - its not really a good example to make mocking other traditions!
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Whats the problem with the haka?
Its tradition, its far more entertaining then watch the english in there new Miss Universe outfit strutting round the field with the big red sash on there shirt.
Tell me one thing wiil Brian Ashton blame the Tongan variation of the haka for getting knocked out of the world cup. Or once more will we hear the speech; that the players haven't played to their potential. Perhaps England should concentrate on rugby there are enough excuses being brandished around. The sad reality is the English lack the ability to play rugby, the players are not up to it and I for one are sick of hearing about it. Go the Tongans!
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Another punter that doesn't get the haka?
The haka is performed out of respect for the opponent as much as anything else. It is meant to look intimidating but perhaps you would have a different view of it if you understood it. If someone were to show respect to you and you were to ignore them or treat them with disdain, what does it say about you?
The WRU and their silly insistence of the order in which events must happen deprived their audience of a spectacle and demonstrated a lack of respect that is the complete antithesis of the haka itself. Unfortunately, little surprise there.
Perhaps the cynics amongst you might wish to do a little more research into the meaning of it prior to dismissing it as a gimmic or a mind game.
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One witnesses some pretty awful refereeing decisions at this world cup, and indeed at previous world cups (that final throw-in at Sydney was so not straight!), such as final warnings being given for a red-card high tackle that has the first-aiders chasing the victim's head across the turf, but this insidious weakness in the system extends to the simple matter of where a penalty kick is taken from. Time and time again, one sees a referee awarding a penalty about forty-five metres from the try-line and six metres in from the touchline.
By the time the kicker has gone through his rigmarole of putting the ball down, picking it up, testing the wind, and all the other necessary rituals, he will kick it from thirty-nine metres out and ten metres in.
Improved perspective equals improved confidence, higher chance of success, and an unfair advantage.
Referees should be more alert to this blatant gamesmanship.
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I also find deference to the Haka a bit absurd. Yes it's a good tradition and i like seeing it (although not sure why the All Blacks seem to keep changing it) but there is no reason they have to do it as the last thing before kick off. Especially when playing away. Can you imagine Aus, SA or NZ allowing England such favours in their countries. Personally i thought Campese's response in 1991 was the best approach. Another idea would be for each All Black to do a dance appropriate to his homeland, be that Fiji, Samoa, Tonga or theoretically even New Zealand
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I like the haka.
But can the Irish put a ban on ireland's Call. The most embarassing anthem ever. I think i'm gonna challenge the constitutionality of not having a referendum to change our rugby anthem. It's a sin. I despise it...
Actually, can we just ban the Irish team. That would sort out two problems in one for me :o)
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Me thinks the 91热爆 Nations doth protest too much.
Let it go and concentrate on the rugby.
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Why does this topic always rear its head when England/Lions nations are playing rubbish Rugby, and are ALL likely to go out of the cup within two matches?
As for tradition. Every tribe would preform a different Haka before battle. Just like many High Schools in NZ have different forms of Haka. Changing the type of Haka, is not diverging from the tradition of a War dance or "Haka". May I suggest that the next UK journalist who brings this topic up, do some research into the cultural background of the Haka, before taking another cheap shot at a truly great Rugby nation.
If you want to go down this track, lets ban the Welsh from singing. Something that all true Rugby supporters would not want to see?
And as for the Pacific nations, a countless number of (NZ Born) players in the Tongan, Samoan and Fiji teams have been brought up through NZ age group teams, and play in our domestic competitions. More than those who end up playing for the All Blacks. Again, a lack of research or ignorance from the otherside of the world
Hows your Sweet Chariots going now?
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There's not much point in complaining about the use of Pacific Islanders in the New Zealand side given that the NZRFU are simply following the rules laid down by the IRB and, as other posters have pointed out, most of the players have grown up in New Zealand. After all, pretty much every other nation has (or has had) players in their side with roots outside the country that they represent. What is unfortunate, and worthy of condemnation, is the lack of support that the NZRFU has given to rugby in the Pacific Islands given the number of players in their game with origins there. Incidentally, does anyone know which players in any squad in the World Cup would not be allowed to play if the football qualification rules (i.e. at least one grandparent has to be have been born in the country that they represent)were applied? I'm pretty sure that England would lose Perry Freshwater but that Matt Stevens' English father would qualify him.
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Working in Switzerland with a large number of people from all over Europe I find when I tell people I have been going to different French towns (including Edinburgh) to watch the Rugby, many of them reply 鈥極h, that鈥檚 the game where they do that great dance before the match.鈥
Surely any ritual that helps Rugby get recognised in the wider non-traditional rugby world is a good thing? As for doing it before the Anthems, after the Haka the anthems are a bit of a let down (Is there actually a good anthem out there?) so let鈥檚 just leave it where it is as a great fire up before kick-off.
In short, I can only agree with the first line of the Blog, it probably is your quickest and defiantly the least professional Blog of yours to date, I鈥檓 afraid it simply comes across as the ventings of an understandably tired & frustrated fan. If you want to speak of psycological advantages, Scotland gave that to NZ (and indeed Italy) the moment the coach announced the team selection. I know he want's his top players for the match against Italy, but the fact they managed fewer points vs the AB's than Portugal or Italy will weigh heavily against them.
P.S. Impressed with the friendly Scottish fans on Sunday, most of who were very supportive of their team to the bitter end.
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i was at the welsh game where they made them perform it behind closed doors. if you was there and heard the boos and jeers from the crowd when they heard it wasnt happening it was deafening!
if you ask any player what they get out of it, im sure they would say the ultimate motovation!
when you pay big money for a ticket, as a fan you want to be entertained, and, a big part of watching new zealand is the haka! as someone said on a previous post, no one minds or makes a big deal when samoa or tonga do theyre own.
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As a Kiwi it's hard to criticise the Haka for fear of the PC police, however NZ is in danger of hypocrisy if it denies other nations their right to perform "traditonal" rituals - if they choose to. Further, I'm one of the few NZers who is embarrassed by the throat cutting gesture...one of these days that's going to bite us in the rear, and deservedly so. Most other societies have shed these kind of rituals in favour of cultural advancement...I'm just as stirred by the majestic sound of UK crowds singing anthems, maybe it's the English blood in me?
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I believe the traditional British response to a war-dance like the haka has always been to face it in a line, shoulder-to-shoulder (as most teams currently do), rifles loaded and raised, bayonets fixed, ...
Seriously though, all games have psychological issues for each team, and it's the coaches job to get his team's mindset right. At least the haka is predictable. (I don't mind the idea of moving it to before the anthems, but that would make facing it even more artificial.)
BTW, did anyone else think that the Tongan "haka" was just a bit too slick? Made them look like a bulked up boy-band? Shame for England they aren't playing like a Pop Idol XV.
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As an Englishman, I don't like the idea of any team playing England getting an unfair advantage. However, I agree with the para-phrased Brian Moore quote above: if you are going to let a little dance intimidate you, choose another sport.
As a sports fan and a traditionalist I like the inclusion of the Haka, but would like to see the return of the 'Kamate' haka, if this is actually traditional(?) However, if this is a true 'challenge' to the opposition: akin to the football terrace "come and have a go if you think you're hard enough" then surely the choice of response should not be down to the Kiwis! If an opposing team is required to face the Haka then the NZ team should be made to 'face' the response, whatever that might be!
Also, if the NZ team get all upset about any official response to the Haka, then I think it the role, nae duty of the fans to take up the mantle of official responders and sing/dance their hearts out for their respective national side!! I would love to be present at the next Wales vs. NZ match in Cardiff to hear the world famous singing prowess of the Welsh drown out the 'voice' of the Haka!!!
Come on boyos!!!
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marc the haka is not a gaudy showboat at all. you say that the kiwis should respect the welsh culture but you show a complete lack of respect for their culture yourself. the haka is a fantastic opening to a match and it should always be allowed take place. what is the big deal? as for the wales/nz game a year ago where the welsh were apparently aggreived- get over it! i'm irish and i love to see the haka! plus if a team is good enough to beat the all blacks while unlikely, the haka shouldnt bother them!
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As a Kiwi it's hard to criticise the Haka for fear of the PC police, however NZ is in danger of hypocrisy if it denies other nations their right to perform "traditonal" rituals - if they choose to. Further, I'm one of the few NZers who is embarrassed by the throat cutting gesture...one of these days that's going to bite us in the rear, and deservedly so. Most other societies have shed these kind of rituals in favour of cultural advancement...I'm just as stirred by the majestic sound of UK crowds singing anthems, maybe it's the English blood in me?
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The haka, like the professional rugby, is all about entertainment - the crowd want to see it so stop your whining. The only way it can affect the opposition is if they let it intimidate them. The French say it helps their motivation. I think Mr Cotter might have a bad case of sour grapes! lol
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Am English and enjoy watching the Haka before a game and think The Haka should stay. We should respect it and watch it and should be allowed to respond appropriately if so wished. Although cant really see us english coming up with an appropirate response. Other than a physical contest on the pitch (that I cant see happening right now).
All this goin in the changin rooms and blah blah blah, what next, do some stretching and take a leak during the oppostitions national anthem.
Lets just face it like men accept the challenge and stop being tarts, as for an unfair advantage it would get me fired up and give a sense of occasion if I had to face it before a game. The only way its unfair is if your scared and what you doing representing your country in a physical contact sport.
However its seems like am in a sewing circle with a bunch of bitchy girls with all this petty nonsense.
An all this last word crap. Shouldnt we worry bout doing the talking on the pitch theres 80mins to get the last word in. Which NZ are probably gonna get the last word anyway when they win.
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I reckon if England do get to play NZ in this tournament (a big "if" of course), I reckon Phil Vickery should wear an eye patch and carry a telescope, to be slowly raised to the eye with the patch, just as the Kiwis commence their haka - it worked against the combined French/Spanish fleet a few centuries ago so there's definitely a bit of history there and who knows, it might help big Phil stay away from the citing commissioner....
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Having lived in New Zealand for over a year and a half and listening to their Radio Sport phone in shows when anyone in Europe usually England starts to slag off the Haka and how necessary this is at the start of a rugby match. Whilst over there I remember the Aussies doing tackle bag drills whilst the All Blacks were performing the Haka, needless to say this didn't go down well. I have no problem with the Haka, I have a problem with Kiwi's thinking, that by the opposition having a reply to their Haka, this is insulting.
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Alan at Post 378, Trev Wallace and 403 and all the other ignorant idiots - you are talking complete and utter nonsense. Completely and utterly wrong and ignorant. Do a little research about NZ and immigration in general (including your own country) and stop being so ignorant.
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Ireland linking arms and walking toward the haka in 1989 wasn't disrespectful - its was awesome, and just how a haka should be faced.
It's still talked about in New Zealand as one of most memorable haka's ever. If ever see Willie Anderson in the pub I will be sure to buy him a beer and call him a legend.
I am a minority of one I'm sure, but as a very proud New Zealander I don't think the haka should be performed anymore.
To us it's not just a bunch of guys making scary faces, beating their chests and shouting. It's statement of national idenity and pride - this is who we are, this is where we are from, we are proud and together as a people and we challenge you!
I understand that people for other places don't get that, and thats totally fair enough - they're not NZers and have their own culture and traditions. But should the haka be respected? Absolutely! But not because the All Blacks say it should, rather because its part of our culture and is important to us - just as we would respect someone else's culture.
Sure, it's a bit of theatre before a rugby match and many people enjoy it. But perhaps it should be stopped before it becomes completely devalued. It's more than a rugby thing and shouldn't be subjected to the kind of derision and ridicule received here in some of these posts - some of which are as ignorant as they are offensive.
We shouldn't force it on people if they aren't interested or don't appreciate it for what it is.
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So little facts... so much conjecture
The Welsh didn't make the ABs perform behind closed doors it was the decison of the Kiwis. They were give assurances from the previous year that the Welsh anthem would follow the Haka once only. No worries if you want right of reply but be original.
The haka is as much for the media as for the team and the crowd expects to see it.
BTW When nations such as NZ, Samoa, Fiji etc perform it is done simultaneously.
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The fact that Andrew Cotter neglects to mention the other proud nations who perform their versions of the Haka and concentrate solely on All-Black bashing makes his article seem very petty indeed. It smacks of pure jealousy and bad sportsmanship in the face of the All Blacks incredible ability.
Personally i view the Haka as one of the most amazing sights and experiences in sport. For the record i am proud Englishman. The world would be a much duller place without it. Furthermore i believe it is inspirational to all, not just kiwi's. Many players who have faced the Haka have said that it gave them strength and inspired them to respond to it with their performance on the pitch so i feel the point about it being an unfair psychological advantage is unfounded. If you asked all the players who have faced it if it made them go weak at the knees or make them want to run home to mummy i think you would get a very firm no! To get rid of the Haka would be a tragedy and another victory for the small minded kill-joys who seem intent on ruining everything about sport by sanitising it and trying to fix things that aren't broken. Whats next? No singing from fans at football matches because it gives the home team an unfair advantage? Standing on the terraces has already been outlawed so it wouldnt surprise me!
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In Maori culture, it's actually very improper for a haka to be preceded by singing - that should come afterwards (as should quite lengthy speeches) - so it would actually be very appropriate, culturally, for the All Blacks to haka before the opposing team's anthem (even as they walked out onto the pitch, if it were a home game), and the anthem would then become a fitting response by team and fans.
And another thing: there are PLENTY of different hakas within Maoridom, with a variety of content; there's nothing wrong with writing a new one, except when it's RUBBISH!
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For me, the point of the Haka is to lay down a challenge to the opposition. The response to the challenge of the Haka is supposed to be on the rugby field. The All Blacks, via the Haka, are trying to say "we have a lot rugby traditions and pride and culture. We think we are the best at what we do. Now show us how good you are..." The best response to the Haka is to beat the All Blacks on the field. Is the reason teams lose against the All Blacks because of the Haka? I don't think so... It is a unique spectacle to rugby. Take that away, and the game risks becoming a soft, politically correct, load of rubbish. Plus, why are complaints always against the All Blacks? What about the Fijian, Tongan and Samoan war dances? Personally, I think a lot of the anti - Haka sentiments come from people that are jealous because their own countries don't have their own long standing tradition that has become an iconic part of the this wonderful game..... And Morris Dancing or a Welsh Male Voice Choir is NOT a reposte to the Haka....
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The opposition should stand around in little groups as if they were have a chat at the bar. Obviously the Scots should start passing a whisky bottle around and consume a little (i.e. a lot to non-Scots) before passing on.
That wouldn't make them win, but they certainly wouldn't feel the pain that they would be just about to receive in bigger measures than the whisky consumed!
The kilt idea is a good one as well, although the team would have to quickly get their kit back on 10 seconds or so before kick-off. Why don't they stand there nd blow kisses to them just as they do the forearm gesture?
The words 'Goose' and 'Gander' spring to mind anyway. Fair's fair and all that. A great spectacle, but ......
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The haka is the best bloody part of world rugby! As an Aussie I feel empty when we play a side other than NZ and I get robbed a haka. I disagree that it gives NZ an advantage, if you believe that it probably speaks more to your own mindset than the kiwi's.
Having faced the haka in schoolboy days, I can say that without a doubt it prepared me (and the team) for the contest ahead. To dust off an old gem... rugby is the winner.
Ever since Australia famously turned their backs to a haka one year and copped just about their worst pummeling ever from NZ, I should think that respecting the haka should be done more in the interest of self-preservation rather than being enforced.
The only new rule I'm interested in seeing is that Australia's anthem must be performed first regardless of where they play because the spectators are usually asleep by the end of it and need another anthem / haka to wake them up before the match. "Our home is girt by sea..." please! Give me the sheep-stealing crim any day!!
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matthew 438- i'm appalled at your comments. the lack of understanding and the amount of ignorance you have shown towards a tradition is astounding. it's pretty typical of the nh though. the haka is amazing and i love seeing it. it is actually showing respect to the other team rather than a alck of respect as claimed by some people. im not a new zealander, i'm irish and sorry but some of this rubbish is terrible to see. it also reeks of jealousy that nz have the best team in the world.
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I agree: The Haka should not be performed. Or they should perform it instead of the national anthem? Give them a choice.
It should most certainly not be required that opposition players stand and watch. The Haka is wonderful to watch but the new Haka means the traditional argument no longer holds. It is a mental ploy which seems to work for them. But that does not mean others have to watch them do it.
That said, as a neutral supporter, I like seeing it so I really suggest that the All Blacks can do the Haka instead of having the NZ anthem played. Problem solved.
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If NZ lose the Haka then the other South Sea Island countries will lose theirs as well. For me the original NZ haka is an exciting showpiece that I never get tired of watching. However, that stupid thing that they have been performing from time to time with the throat-slitting gesture goes on too long and is just tedious and embarrassing. Stick to the original please gentleman.
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How can you be against the Haka? You all sound like a bunch of winging poms (Yes I'm a Kiwi) who are trying to find fault with an outstanding sporting team. Just like you find fault with the Australian Cricket team and undoubtably the Brazilian football team.
I notice no mention has been made about the Samoans, Tongans or Fijians. Should they stop as well?
Other teams...Feel free do perform something also. Why not? What possibly harm is it?
Get over it Pommies, and be glad that one of your colonies will win the cup back...
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Haka - Take it or leave it. A lot of people appear to have very firm ideas of whether or not it has any relevance. My point of view is that the blazers, the press the NZ PC brigade immediately take offence if the opposition decide to do anything other than face the dance.
Richard Cockerill faced up to Norm Hewitt and was criticised by certain sections.
Management now say you mustn't be provocative during the performance. I would much rather see sides react to the Haka in whatever way they choose, throw roses at them after, ignore it completely, march up to them and eyeball them, stand in their space, but I can't see it happening as they would be severely criticised.
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I think the haka is a great tradition in rugby if yyou dont want them to have the last say then maybe other teams could sing the anthems after but the haka is a great tradition and im sure that 1000s of fans enjoy watching it when new zealand play it gets the game off to a climatic start.
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So when Tonga bring out there war dance will you be saying the same thing next week? No complaints when Samoa was in full cry either I can see from your blog.
Just another boring dig at the Haka.
The Haka is a challenge that is put out to the opposition or anyone.
It is respectful in Maori custom that you accept the challenge by facing it.
To be honest I don't think it bothers the ABs if you don't face up to it. I don't like it how South Africa have 2 anthems but I respect it.
I don't know why the ABs have changed the Haka though. What right have they got to change it from decades of the same war dance.
Anyway can't wait to see you next blog after the Tongan loss.
You could have spent 拢6 on learning the history of the Haka perhaps?
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As I remeber the haka used to look like Morris dancing before Buck Shelford and then Zinzan Brooke converted it into the wide eyed, sumo/greco-roman wrestling kata that we see today.
It is an improtant part of the build up and makes games agains New Zealand a little bit special. New Zealand clearly use this moment to state their aggressive intent to the opposition and I suppose one could argue that this confers an unfair advantage to the team 'recieving' the Haka.
However it seems to me that it is the subsequent performance of aggressive tackling and rucking combined with devestating open rugby that intimidates the opposition. If the Haka won games then Tonga and Samoa would be equally successful.
If supporters feel unhappy about the Haka being performed after the anthems then I suggest that they sing their national anthem during its performance. I am not aware of any particular etiquette regarding the observance of silence by the crowd. I would prefer silence during conversion attempts as this seems to me just bad sportsmanship.
Finally, it occured to me that the best response to the Haka is to accept it and keep a cool head. England demonstrated this against Samoa recently, standing in the typical shoulder to shoulder line and then playing aggressive rugby from the kick off. That would be better respected by New Zealand than 'eye-balling' them or throwing grass blades.
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I just want to agree that the Kiwi fans are the dullest in the world - they take the winning of the game so seriously. In Sydney when they lost the semi final there was no consoling them - they were just like spoilt children - but the Aussies had out thought and out played them. Even straight after England lost in Paris last weekend, England fans could see we had it coming and whilst shocked we still had a great time.
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This is possibly one of the most ridiculous comments ever posted concerning rugby. You do not deserve to be called a rugby commentator if you believe in such nonsense, The haka is one of the highlights of rugby union everyone loves to watch it before a game. This has been an all black tradition for decades and should continue to do so. Due to your pro scottish beliefs you have become short sighted on this issue, you should be worrying about the italians and not the haka. Furthermore, this haka has been performed on many previous occasions and as I would have loved to have seen the warriors in black make the slit throat gensture to the pathetic scots!
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I think the correct response from the English would be to immitate the Red Coats mowing down opposition. Or would that be politically incorrect?
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Who cares? Let them Hak away to their heart's content. And if they get shirty about the oppositions' response (e.g. Italy going into a huddle and totally ignoring them) just laugh at them!
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That the Haka is spectacular, no one can doubt. However there is no way that tha all blacks should perform it after Anthems and if everyone of them is not a Maori! Stuff pc behaviour and let other teams respond as they please if we must have this outmoded tradition.
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Here's one for ya. Why do Wales sing the Welsh Nat Anth, Scotland Sing the Scottish but England sing the British Nat Anth, NOT the English ??? As an aside the reason we sing anthems is because in 1905 when Wales played NZ (and won) we responded to their Haka with our national anthem and ever since its become traditional.
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Reading through some not all of the above the entries I am not sure many of you are true rugby fans, the "HAKA" is and should remain part of rugby folk law. If NZ were not allowed to perform it before kick off do you really think that it would stop them from giving the rest of us a good tonking? I don鈥檛 think so.
If you ask most of the international stars who have faced the HAKA I鈥檓 sure that they would say its one of the most inspiring things that they have faced in rugby if not in there day to day life.
And who is actually asking for the HAKA to be outlawed if you like? Certainly not me nor would I say the International sides who face the All BLACKS, but those fans who鈥檚 teams get hammered by them thinking that the Haka has some magical spell that renders all teams who the ALL BLACKS face inept of playing rugby.
It鈥 up to the rest of the world to develop their game to cope with the pace, power and passion that the All Blacks play with. Rugby is in there blood as a nation and is there number one sport, that鈥檚 why they are so good. As the gap between NZ and the rest of the world gets bigger it is easy to say the HAKA gives them an edge but if you ask the guys who face it will tell you, they have the choice to face it or to ignore it.
I personally have never known a side not to face and accept the challenge of the HAKA I may be wrong. A one DAVID CAMPASIE of Australia does spring to mind. In RWC1991 when he decided that he would leave them to it and kicked the ball around in the in goal area of the Australian half and left his team to pick up the challenge. That was his way of dealing with it and fair play to him. (By the way he holds the international try scoring record 64 if I鈥檓 not mistaken) for all you out there thinking who鈥檚 he. And Australia won.
England when the whole team advanced as the ALL BLACKS preformed the war dance what a sight, and what an atmosphere for a game of rugby that created. England rose to the challenge and what a game that was.
The top teams (Australia, South Africa, Scotland) don鈥檛 seem to let the HAKA affect them it seems to be the minor nations who face the All blacks find it easy to complain about the HAKA and blame it for their teams bad performance. Rubbish blame the coach or the players its them that can鈥檛 live up to the pace and power that the all blacks play with.
I am a Scotsman and I was happy with our teams performance on Sunday keeping them to 40 point although we do need to work hard on a few areas, and I think that the "HAKA" actually stird up emotions in the Scottish team and made them take up the challenge.
Take FRANCE in RWC 99 and that semi-final if ever a game was turned on it head it was that game. Did the "HAKA" have an effect on the French that day I don鈥檛 think so, they just played better rugby.
I for one still get goose bumps when ever I watch the "HAKA" and have the up most respect for the fans who remain quiet and respect the all blacks who perform one of the most talked about rituals in sport. Yes time moves on and things change but I for one would like to see the "HAKA" stay and respected when preformed on the international stage.
If any nation has a particular problem with it then it would be for them to approach the IRB and lodge a complaint based on hard facts, and to produce the evidence to support their claim. But I can鈥檛 see that happening this side of Scotland winning this year鈥檚 world cup.
Lets leave the HAKA alone and focus on what a spectacle this tournament is turning out to be with teams like GEORGA, ROMANIA and JAPAN performing well against the so called bigger sides IRELAND, ITALY and WALES. Rugby itself will be the loser if all we have to moan about is a pre match ritual lets spend the time talking about the developing countries mentioned above and what we can do to improve the image of the game of rugby around the world in countries such as CHINA, BRAZIL to mention two.
Time for me to get of my high horse now I鈥檓 getting vertigo, hope you don鈥檛 think I鈥檓 to pro NZ but they are good. Enjoy the rest of the tournament and here鈥檚 hoping Scotland beat ITALY this weekend.
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Mike (204) you're quite right about the first ever Wales vs NZ game being the origin of the tradition - the ABs performed a haka, and the Welsh responded with their anthem, and thus the tradition of anthems before games was born.
However, I'm not suggesting that we make NZ choose between their anthem and their dance - they can do both if they like, because I agree with Charlie (114) that the rousing Welsh rendition of Cwm Rhondda (Bread of Heaven as it's known in my country, but your hymn "Guide me of thou gret Jehovah") was the best answer I have heard.
Let's not have a war on the pitch though eh? That's what the game's for ;)
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Firstly,the haka is what everyone loves when new zealand play. In my local club, the kids rush to the front when the haka is about to come on.
Secondly, in an U10 tournament years ago each team was delegated an international country. We got new zealand and learned to perform the haka. When we played the english team they had a recorded version of 'swing low' blaring out at the same time. Maybe the tannoys should play that at Twickenham.
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Teams do have the right of reply. A number of the Pacific Island teams have a traditional 'dance' akin to the Haka, which they perform... Fiji, Samoa, Tonga at this world cup for those that bothered to notice. Watching the All Blacks v Samoa when the Haka and the Samoan Manu are performed at the same time is quite something to behold.
So if you want a dance, or a chant, or whatever - then go for it. I might suggest that a team moan might be more appropriate. Perhaps open up this forum before the game...
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This is a professional sport, and internationals are the pinnacle of any player's career. Anyone who thinks that doing any form of haka, or facing one, makes any difference to levels of commitment and motivation for the players involved hasn't played much sport.
Simple matter is that they're part of the theatre, the crowds love it, and it makes no difference to the outcome.
I think the point that this has shown more than anything else is how every single thread on here devolves into a pathetic playground slanging match. This isn't football you know.
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Whats wrong with our team yelling "Come on then johnny foreigner, lets see what you're made of!" in response to the haka? Or perhaps the refrain from the battle of Hastings "OUT, OUT, OUT!"? Seriously, if we are allowed to trawl our national cultural history for pre-battle rallying calls, with our voluminous history of warfare we should be able to come up with something. How about singing "Jerusalem" while the haka is being performed?
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This is a professional sport, and internationals are the pinnacle of any player's career. Anyone who thinks that doing any form of haka, or facing one, makes any difference to levels of commitment and motivation for the players involved hasn't played much sport.
Simple matter is that they're part of the theatre, the crowds love it, and it makes no difference to the outcome.
I think the point that this has shown more than anything else is how every single thread on here devolves into a pathetic playground slanging match. This isn't football you know.
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I love to see the Haka.
The traditional Haka we see, is "Ka Mate", which is classed as a ceremonial haka, not a war haka.
As for when the All Blacks meet say Samoa, they do their own Haka at the same time. Youtube has an example of this - watch it as it's very interesting to see these teams doing it at the same time.
Long may it continue.
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So when there's nothing to discuss about the home nations rugby aside from "where were we?" start a blog on the haka or poaching and look at the muppets flock to the site, and here we all are.
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I remember as a 14 year old seeing Ian Kirkpatrick鈥檚 All Blacks at Twickenham in 1972/73, and I was bitterly disappointed that this aggressive, surly, and superb bunch of tourists did not do the Haka. I was also disappointed that the most aggressive and surly All-Black of them all, Keith Murdoch, was no longer in the party. As a consequence the long-awaited contest between the bull-elephant from Otago and our own (also injured) Mike Burton never materialised. But catch if you can, a recording of the fabulous tour-finale match against the Barbarians, not only for the wonderful rugby鈥ut also for the dismal apology for a 鈥淗aka鈥! You know those 鈥渘ovelty dances鈥 that people learn on holidays and do at wedding receptions? One or two of them 鈥渢hought鈥 they knew how to do it, but they end up surreptitiously watching everybody else, and doing the movements a nano-second behind the leader. Well, it was just like that.
At least these days they do it as if they mean it! As for 鈥渢he last word鈥, who is to stop anyone else 鈥渞esponding鈥?! My final comment would be 鈥渨here鈥檚 the harm in it鈥?!
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Anyone who does not believe that the AB's have taken the Haka and made it into a certifiable psychological weapon should take a look at a certain well known video sharing web site and search for haka old meets new 1979 it was, and then decide.
As it is today, the modern choreographed version, I love it, it's pure drama and makes the hairs stand up on my arms (and I'm English) but I do feel it gives a certain edge / fire in the early stages, important as this can set the tone for the whole match.
Reaction to it, as said by many, teams should be allowed to either confront it or ignore it (push off to the other end of the pitch and kick and catch, pass the ball around whatever), not just be forced to stand there like deer in the headlamps.
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Get rid of it. It is a joke and gives an unfair advantage. As someone has said "does the NZ cricket team do it?" What about their football team (which isn't very good)? I also agree that other teams should start ignoring it, and get the crowd laughing then over time (hopefully quickly) they'll drop it. I hope they are forced to drop it anyway.
Also, if the All blacks are so good....why have they only won the world cup once 20 years ago?
Only 5 teams can win it anyway - 4 of them have - England, France, SA, Australia and NZ. Why should the "world" be dictated to by a team from a nation with 4 million people?
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whats maori for choker?
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Not happy with the haka? As a Kiwi I personally don't like it when my fellow countrymen get precious over how other teams respond, it shouldn't be for us to tell them how. As for taking it out of the game though, it just seems as though you English haven't moved on from your Empire mentality or is it just pure ignorance?
The real issue worth offense is the Brits' vision of 4 million white people, the odd Maori in a grass skirt and of course the 10 Polynesians in our rugby team at the time (dispatched back to Apia upon retirement). You could take a lesson from a country that has the two biggest Polynesian cities in the world, a short history of at times rocky Pakeha/Maori relations and still manages to embrace every people and culture in not just rugby but everyday life. The haka is one tradition and cultural icon that I as a pakeha am proud of and gives me immense feelings of unity with my fellow countrymen, along with the fact that we have such a healthy and appropriate team diversity. I would not impart such ignorance in trying to tell you why there are such obvious divides in English society, both race and classwise, but try to understand that your values don't apply to us. We are Kiwis, not white, black, yellow percentages.
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Two words - sour grapes.
England dont have a hope in hell in winning the cup, Scotland and Ireland are a joke so lets all pick on NZ again.
Perhaps learn the facts about the Haka before you all get on your high horse about something.
Its a fantastic part of the sport, and why is it only the English nation that has a problem with it?
NZ ruby, the team and nation bring more money into the sport than ANY other nation and also raise the awareness of the sport through countries that dont know much about the game.
Kiwi supporters the dullest in the world? What ever, you mate, have no idea about what kiwis are like and I suggest you look in your own back yard before p***ing us all off.
Unlike England, we have pride in our team and we have a reason to.... and note I say team, not just one man like you lot that cant win without Jonny.
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Funny.. this old arguments seem to be rolled out every time the English team is under performing (i.e. is utterly rubbish) - so essentially every recent year except for a brief period leading up to the 2003 RWC.
In fact, all the quality rugby nations on the planet praise the use of the haka. Players from Australia, France, and South Africa, have all recently stated that they believe the Haka raises the team facing it as much as it does for the team performing it.
Also while we are at it, lets debunk a little myth. All teams are welcome to do any response they wish to the Haka. Australia will often get in a huddle and sing waltzing matilda. The ABs never seem to complain.
Or on the other hand, we could ban any external forces that might have bias on a game. Yes, that would include singing 'Swing Low, Sweet Chariot' (which isn't even historically an English song - yes is is American!). But why stop there even the mere presence of supporters at a ground may have some effect on the game, so lets ban supporters from the live game.
Come on England. Stop looking for external reasons for why you are not going to make the semi-finals, and face the facts that your team simply is rubbish.... maybe then you might be able to do something other than relying on JW to kick a few field goals.
Viva Tonga..
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Yes let them do the Haka it adds to the occasion. Maybe the best reply would be for opposing players to hide little cards with numbers from 1 to 10 on them underneath their track-suit tops and then rate the performance of the afore said Haka with a relevant card when they finish. Alternatively they could do away with the cards and just hold up a number of fingers instead in a similar fashion. However, caution should be taken when deciding what fingers should be used if they were thinking of rating the haka at 1 or two out of 10.
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I think the only reason this has been brought up is people think that maybe it gives them an advantage - final word and all. We always seem to be able to pick apart teams that are doing well or are hotty tipped for winning the world cup. No-one complains about South Africa singing thier national anthem in two languages or Australia ( no all the time i must add) singing Walzing Matilda at thier games. If a team is big enough just to stand there and accept the challenge then i dont understand the issue. The Haka brings that bit of tradition and showmanship to live sport - i mean seeing the Haka live gives you goosebumps.
The whole throat slitting thing got the attention of the rugby world- and when they did it to South Africa last year no-one complained about it then - everyone loved it , it had hundreds of hits on youtube.
Let the Haka continue - stop trying to find flaws with NZ Rugby they are playing possible the most entertaining rugby in this World Cup and goodluck to them.
Zoe (Plymouth England)
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Your right Andrew, if we take the Hacka away we can call the whole tournament a pointless uncompetative waste of time! And as a fellow Scot, do you think Robert the Bruce would have sent a B team out as the odds of beating the English were to high?
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getting the Kiwis so wound up about their ridiculous Haka is so much better than working........
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Having travelled all the way up to Edinburgh from London to watch the game this weekend, I was disappointed that the ABs performed their new Haka rather than the old one - the new one is not half as much a piece of theatre as the version that has been used for as long as I have been watching the game - as a first time watcher of the ABs I felt a little cheated - although not as cheated as I was by Scotland fielding a 2nd XV. I am a Scotland fan and understand the logic but at the same time, felt that it was disrespectful to both the fans and the ABs and certainly gave NZ an unfair advantage - psychological or otherwise.
Also - can England please stop singing God save the Queen - this is the British National anthem - not English - why not sing Jerusalem like the league team?
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The Haka came about from The 1888 Natives rugby tour team, which doubled as a kapa haka group. The 1905 Original All Blacks first performed a spontaneous haka in response to 80,000 Welshmen singing Land of My Fathers at Cardiff Arms. These are great stories that enrich the fabric of the game. The haka is not a 鈥榳ar dance,鈥 it is a sign of respect, solidarity and show of strength. In history, it was designed to avoid war rather than instigate it by showing that you respect your opponent but will not back down or be intimidated if he attacks you. In some ways it is similar to the 21 gun salute and changing of the guard in European history 鈥 signs of strength to prevent people attacking you. In contrast to being intimated by it, most opposition teams use the haka to fire themselves up. I think people are only bagging the haka because the All Blacks are on top at the moment. Whenever a sports team gets a break on the rest, the others try to knock them down. This happened with the great West Indies cricket team of the 80s, when people bagged them for over appealing and slow over rates. The same thing happened with the Pakistan team of the early 90s with ball tampering. Do people care about the Windies over appealing now they are poor? I鈥檒l leave you with this: if the All Blacks were losing regularly, would people care about the haka?
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I've no objections to the Haka as long as England can do the Hoke-coke
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Surely Scotland should have one of their number striding up and down giving the old Braveheart speech. The whole crowd would join in.
It would be interesting to see the All Blacks do the haka away from home and the home crowd signing during it. Scotland sing Flower of Scotland, England Swing Low etc. That would support your team as the face it.
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another pom writer talking through his hat. if you understood the challenge, you would have less of a problem. pity you don't.
there is no such thing as "the haka" or "the traditional haka". a haka is a challenge; thousands of such exist; true, the Ka Mate haka that AB teams commonly use, written originally by Ngapuhi warchief Te Rauparaha, could be said to be a tradition for the ABs, but there is nothing stopping them using any other haka.
Most pertinent, the new "throat slitting" haka you poms seem to get steamed about was written specifically by and for the ABs; the fact it was used for the first time at the Cup to the Scots was as an honour to them; a recognition of their clan culture. IF the ABs get to face England (which I seriously doubt) I suspect they will not use it - because they don't respect them enough.
Get it?
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Oh dear here we go again...
1. It's A Haka not THE Haka, and this notion that Kapa O Pango (based on a Haka written for the '24 Invincibles) somehow invalidates it is one of silliest things i've ever read. Merely because a form is traditional doesn't make it frozen in time, actually in terms of the way it's wrriten & what it represents it IS 'traditional'.
2. I constantly read comments about it being 'now politically incorrect to criticise the Haka' usually on the 500th rant in British media, almost always totally illinformed.
3. The notion that because the ABs perform it properly now, as opposed to embarassing manner they used to means they've 'changed what it's about' is entirely cart before the horse. The way it's performed now is simply how you'd see it performed on any Marae or school up & down NZ, and the way it has been probably for centuries.
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In a country where we are losing our national identity and our culture your another liberal white who thinks that something should go because it serves no reason other than give an advantage to the AB. Listen if you cant siked up to play the AB then you should not be taking the rugby field against them, haka or no haka. And there is the problem with our 6 nation teams overpayed players who live in there comfort zone in a country where one minute the media paints them as superstars and the next runs them to the pits, who have no pride in there nationality because its been stolen away from them by the noisey minority who thinks that we should all be coffee coloured. Have you watched the twenty20 world cup the Indians and the Pakistan's showed what it is to have pride in your country and its was wonderful to see if our players, public and media was to show the same pride without being snorted by people like you perhaps our sports teams would become world beaters again. Long live the HAKA.
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I'm from the northern hemisphere and seeing as none of the teams up my way are doing very well, I'm going to complain about the most dominating team, the ABs. I think they should ban the Haka, even though I have no right to say what another country deems a tradtion. I think it gives the ABs an unfair advantage which is why they always win every game they play. They always want the last say which is why, when they play Pacific Island teams who also have traditional 'hakas' (incidently I have no problem with these tradtions before a match) they are done simultaneously.
Also, without acknowledging what a multi cultural country NZ actually is I would like to say that they have obvioulsy "poached" players from their neighbouring Pacific Islands. I'm not going to bother learning that most of the AB players with PI heritage were actually born in NZ and the ones who weren't migrated there at a very young age and were put through the NZ school system, played rugby at NZ club level, then went on to play rugby at NZ domestic level before being selected to play for their nation.
Isn't it fun having a moan?! And if the ABs don't win the WC, which they probably won't seeing as they are chokers because chokers are teams that only lose 1 or 2 games a year and have never done any worse than making a semi or the final in a WC, then we'll just pick holes in the team that does win it!
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It is a rugby tradition and no doubt they will feel entitled to maintain it for as long as the backbone of the team is made up of players from the Pacific Islands.
As and when the IRB sorts out elligibility rules based on nationality rather than residenecy then the Haka must be respected.
In the meantime we should maybe encourage Brian Ashton to introduce pre-match Morris Dancing or a short burst of Riverdance from the Irish to set the pulse racing.
but we can look forward to
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I totally disagree. One the greatest highlights of my rugby watching 'career' is having seen the Haka live- it is one of the great sights of world sport, let alone rugby. It is traditional even if they use a new version and as such should be respected as should everyone else's anthems and pre-match war dances - I don't see you comlaining about the ManuSamoains or the Fijians or the Tongans war dance? I have often thought that people who complain about the Haka are just jealous - jealous of a wonderful, stirring tradition such as the Haka, and jealous of the All Blacks unquestionable standing in world rugby as the best rugby nation- whether you like it or not, over the past 100 odd yrs NZ have been on average the best team. There is absolutely nothing stopping any one of the 91热爆 Nations from doing their own response to the Haka, nothing what so ever. So I don't think anyone can complain about it. And here's a thought, how about asking the players (who are the ones you claim are being psyched out by it) how they feel facing it- I would bet a hell of a lot that they love it and that it just makes them even more reved up for taking the All Blacks on. There has been enough things changed in world rugby over the last decade, the last thing we need is more traditions being throw on the rubbish heap because of people who are jealous, petty and/or not real true rugby lovers!
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Well done Andrew Cotter. Kiwi poster 496 obviously thinks you are English with his final comments about the English without Jonny boy!!
You are able, more than most, to give the impression of impartiality, similar to the Master, Bill McLaren. Everybody knew he was Scottish, but recognised that he never displayed the patriotism he felt inside. Unlike a lot of the English commentators and pundits who can't disguise their Anti anyone who is not English. Brian Moore to quote a prime example. (I won't quote his master comment as this post would probably get pulled, but I'm sure most of you will know it anyway - and I don't want to offend the hosts).
Getting onto National Anthems - why are the English ALLOWED to use 'God Save The Queen' - It is NOT the English, it is the British National Anthem - they are not representing Great Britain, are they? Oh no, they think they are and that's their problem. God, I'm turning this into a bit of a rant - see what you've done Kiwi 496? There, that's my sour grapes out the way.
All the Celtic nations play with a pride and a passion - the English (or, most of them) don't know what those words mean.
From the other posters I have seen the answer, but I doubt that many teams will pick up the baton and do their own ceremonial offering at the same time - I would love to see it. After all, it's only a game.
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Well said Celtic Kiwi...
I agree totally. The haka is part of being a New Zealander and the misunderstanding surrounding it makes me want the ABs to stop doing it. However it's now a case of damned if we do - damned if we don't.
It's a classic case of different cultures misunderstanding each other and it is sad that is has to taint the RWC especially at this present time.
It's about us - but I agree we can't push it down people's throats.
Enough is enough - I think it's time we stopped doing it as a spectacle. It seems it will always create a fuss and I for one am sick of trying to explain it and New Zealand.
Go Blacks - Kia kaha
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WOW! - So many comments - Get a grip guys, it's only a dance and hardly worth reaching for the tissues!
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The haka has a long standing tradition so dont knock it - the Tongan & Samoan teams also have a similar war dance derived pre match challenge .
The above comments show a lack of cultural awareness , almost ignorance .
Next time you are in NZ spend time at a local Marae to understand better .
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Re: 499, One proud kiwi
"Its a fantastic part of the sport, and why is it only the English nation that has a problem with it?"
I'm not English and I want to see the end of all the dances etc before matches.
And it's not fantastic, and it's certainly not a part of the sport, it's poorly performed dance/physical theatre! I don't remember seeing a section on dancing in the laws and regulations of the game.
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Whether the Haka should be done or not is a moot point, it is there and it is going to stay, which IMO is a good thing.
What gets to me is the people who say it gives the AB鈥檚 an advantage, I鈥檝e faced a Haka while doing a school tour of NZ, and it had the exact opposite affect to the one of intimidation that people say it has.
Whilst you鈥檙e out there facing it; what goes through your mind, is that you are facing a team that play their best, to them this is more important that a game of rugby this is a form of modern combat, it鈥檚 about them challenging you too battle. They鈥檙e declaring war on you, and if it鈥檚 war they want, by god it鈥檚 war they鈥檒l get.
Every member of the team I was in thought that and we played our hearts out. It upped the level of our game more than anything else could. 23 years later we all still remember it like it was yesterday.
Watching the Springboks facing the Haka, all I can think is go guys, show them that you are up to the challenge and will fight to the last breath.
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I am all for the haka when NZ play the other pacific island teams...that is were it comes from and they know how to treat it. The youtube film of Tonga (I think) and NZ going head to head gives me goosebumps.
As for us English, our traditional response to this sort of challenge was to form a square, the front rank to kneel, take aim and fire but I don't know how that would be accepted by the IRB. Maybe we should also use this tactic the next time we are kept hanging around for 15 minutes while the Scots do Braveheart 2 at Murrayfield in february.
Just give me the rugby and let's not turn it into American Football!!!!
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light blue touch paper and stand well back..................
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Keep the Haka but make it the traditional one, have the tribes of NZ changed the one they have been performing for centuries?
The Haka is a challenge to be faced by opposing adversaries, and should be respected for that, although the thought of a Scottish team accepting the challenge in true BraveHeart style may put some off their beer.
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The Haka should definitely stay, but the opposing team should also have the right to respond to it as they see fit.
I seem to remember Ireland in the late eighties ('88?) forming a straight line for the start of it, then slowly stamping forward until they formed an arrowhead with the opposing captains inches apart.
This would seem to me exactly the sort of response you'd like to see to a Haka, but I also seem to recall the Irish being slated for it by the powers that be, despite the superb reaction it got from the crowd (at least in the pub in Cardiff where I was watching).
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Hello
What would happen if, whilst the New Zealand team were prancing about, the other team went ahead and lined up for the kick off and actually did kick off? That would have the men in black doing the quickstep a bit sharpish. I liked the Welsh situation, you do your little dance -and then we sing our national anthem. Unfortunatly the mib didnt like this and they did the dance in the toilets, well enough said. Just remember if they dont get things their way, as they expect, they tend to sulk a bit. Thats why they lost co hosting rights for the world cup in 2003. Why not do the dance at the end of the game? Is it true it is soon to become an olympic sport? With the team being an equal split scottish/maori/islanders couldnt a more cosmopolitan choreography could be concocted It is rather quaint, though like all good things it is suffering from overkill, and perhaps should be put to a mercifull end.
Happy hakaing
Geraint Phillips
Perth
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For those who claim the all blacks cannot claim the haka is traditional because they have a new one, i suggest you do a bit of research.
Not all hakas are war dances, and even not all Haka war dances are the Ka Mate haka popularised by the all black in the modern era.
Haka is a traditional Maori dance routine, and over the years the All Blacks have performed a number of different Haka.
Culture does not stand still. There will always be 'new' artifacts in traditional art forms.
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It is a rugby tradition and no doubt they will feel entitled to maintain it for as long as the backbone of the team is made up of players from the Pacific Islands.
As and when the IRB sorts out elligibility rules based on nationality rather than residenecy then the Haka must be respected.
In the meantime we should maybe encourage Brian Ashton to introduce pre-match Morris Dancing or a short burst of Riverdance from the Irish to set the pulse racing.
but we can look forward to
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Come on guys, it's a game of rugby not the end of civalisation as we know it. The Haka is a tradition not a threat. It's not like they club the opposition to death before they start. And by the way all those muppets that referred to "English Morris Dancing" should get their own lines and not copy from Max Boyce who came up with the suggestion years ago.
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I thought the All Blacks turned the Hakka from a tribal tradition that everyone enjoyed and respected into another dance routine. Perhaps we can have a Strictly Come Hakking competition to find out the best version.
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Ah but, 'rugby lover', you are wrong on two counts: the haka is not a wonderful, stirring tradition. Wonderful and stirring it may be, but a mere 20 years ago most ABs did not have a clue how to perform it. If you want a real laugh, go back a few more years and watch the 'wonderful, stirring' pastich of a Morris dance that the 1973 ABs performed before a bemused Barbarian team at Cardiff.
As for nothing stopping any of the 91热爆 Nations performing their own response, er... isn't that why the great ABs had a fit of pique and performed the Haka in the dressing room when Wales asked if they could perform their anthem?
Keep the Haka if we must - it is a spectacle for watchers (though less of one when sold as as advertising material and carried out like spoiled children in the privacy of dressing rooms when challenged) but just don't make a song and dance of it.
Oh, that's what it is isn't it?
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I'm have to say why should the All Blacks always have the last chance to intimidate the opposition. In my eyes Richard Cockrill was a legend for standing toe-to-toe with his opposite number during England V New Zealand while the All Blacks did the haka.
Scrap the anthems please!
And allow the nations to lay down their challenge to the Haka.
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This article is just xenophobia gone mad!
Hats off to the ignorant pathetic Daily Mail readers here who put up a half convincing argument for once, but im sorry to have to break it to you...you are full of rubbish.
Of course the AllBlacks, Tongans and Samoans should be allowed to 'Haka' their hearts out. Should england fans be stopped from singing Jerusalem since it could be seen as too 'nationalistic'!?
Oncle Bob, have you seen the Haka performed in front of you rather than on a TV? It is a very impressive sight.
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"Bampot Bob - All the Celtic nations play with a pride and a passion - the English (or, most of them) don't know what those words mean."
How much longer do the English have to put up with this frankly racist tosh? 2003 - all the pride and passion you could wish for.
How many Celtic teams, with all their pride and passion, have ever won a world cup in any sport?
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"why is it only the English nation that has a problem with it?"
An interesting comment given that the writer of the blog is Scottish, do your homework next time.
And to those people complaining that the English use the United Kingdom national anthem as their anthem - God Save the Queen also serves as a Royal Anthem for several Commonwealth countries and due to the lack of an official English national anthem we fall back on using the Royal Anthem to unsurprisingly honor our Monarch. It's not arrogance, just circumstance. I'd much prefer Land of Hope and Glory myself.
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Why is it that the Europeans rugby 'experts' and players are the only ones complaining about the haka. Or are people just finding a bit annoying at the allblacks success over the years. I never see the Australians and South Africans complaining about the haka yet they are able to beat the allblacks occasionally. I haven't seen anyone making complaints about the Samoan/Fijian and Tongan war dance. So is it just the frustration at their dominance in the game? Wheres the psychological advantage there???..perhaps European rugby should start focusing on their game plan than what the allblacks are doing before the game...then perhaps your brand of football will start improving.
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I'm not sure what I am more annoyed about. The fact that people are complaining about something that is a spectacle in itself (and has been instrumental in bringing not only infamy to the All Blacks but also to Rugby and the Rugby World Cup) or the fact I wasted moments of my life reading this "Blog".
Andrew obviously has a bee in his bonnet about something and is looking for something to have a dig at the "Blacks" about. So how do you do this? Spend 1/3 of your article moaning about how long it takes to write and article and how much it is costing you to do it. And then apart from your title "Hacked off" which is an ingenious play on the words "Haka". Don't back up in the article anything of any worth. Your article is intended only to inflame and annoy. You even say you enjoy watching it!
I feel slightly more stupid than when I started and have just taken a shower.
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Entertaining blog-but please let麓s be honest haka or no haka-the All Blacks run rings round the rest and particularly round those unfancied North Hemisphere teams. Within the top 10 rugby nations there is not one Northern Hemisphere team that poses even the slightest of threats of stealing the All Blacks thunder.
Likening the haka to being an unfair advantage is nothing short of the lousiest excuse for a late running train- adopted in the early 90s by those most loathable train operators of "pigeon droppings on line" causes delay!
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Right, there's no point getting rid of the haka. Yes it may be poorly performed dance/physical theatre but it's a bit of something that, although not really part of the game, adds something special to rugby. We would be losing something to get rid of it.
However, New Zealand should consider what terrible guests they are by attempting to tell other nations that they can't respond to it when New Zealand play away games. It's a war dance if I'm not mistaken, and I'll tell you this much, no nation on Earth would just stand there and not respond to someone declaring war!
Keep the haka, but the home nation should have a right to reply, similarly they should have the right to lay down a challenge before the haka when they play in New Zealand.
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Having personally suffered the defeat at the hands of the All Blacks on Sunday and having forked out nearly 拢300 for the privelge of being there, the Haka was one of the highlights of the day. I know that Scotland and Hadden will be judged on how far they progress in the RWC but I cant help feeling that we supporters have been short changed. One major grumble I do have is the unlevel playing field that is the version of Flower of Scotland as recorded by the French Republican Guard brass band played at Murrayfield. We are used to this musical abuse when playing on foreign fields but why at Murrayfield. Is this the RWC PC brigade trying to be fair to the All Blacks prior to the Haka? I dont think so. Also plenty of high paying bums on seats - no half time entertainment..... grumble, grumble grumble. Bring on Italy and let me forget that forgettable day.
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Am I going to die! Am I going to die!
Will I live! Will I live!
Am I going to die! Am I going to die!
Will I live! Will I live!
This hairy man standing above me
Will they help me see the light of day once more
One step out of the hole! The second!
The third! The fourth!
I鈥檝e seen the sunshine again.
Waltzing Matilda, Waltzing Matilda.
Swing Low Sweet Chariots!
They're all a bit gay really aren't they?
Bored of this blog now
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Absolute and utter crap from Cotter. Never played rugby I take it? A game of rugby is a true battle and I can't think of a better way for getting up for one than facing the Haka. It is a challenge and as Brian Moore said 'if you are not up for the challenge then you shouldn't be on the pitch'. Most fans absolutley love it and to take it away would detract from the spectacle. If I ever got the chance to play for england against NZ, and looking at how our centres are playing at the moment I'm in with a shout, I would be absolutley gutted if they were not allowed to perform the Haka. And all this rubish about them getting the last psychological advantage from it. I would gain such a boost from that challenge. The key is to understand what the Haka means and to use that to your advantage. It's a challenge to battle, listen, to it, accept it and if you do then you get just as much of a boost as them.
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I agree with someone who said they should drop the anthems and the Haka. Most of the teams are mixed natioanlity anyway. The Kiwi's and Aussies bribe the players from islands around them, the European teams have a lot of cross-breeding and southern hemisphere players in them.
I say scrap them and people can choose who to support each game.
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I would like the All Blacks to stop doing the Haka. Not because of the 'unfair advantage' it gives them but just because they do it really badly. I'm not joking.
I went to NZ and I stayed on a marae (traditional maori place of residence) and while I was there they taught us the same Haka that the All Blacks usually perform. They taught us how much it means to them and how important it is to get right. They also told us that the All Blacks do it very badly and they sometimes get ashamed of the Haka being performed in that way.
And it does give you the best buzz after performing it. Maybe if the All Blacks did it right they would actually become the undisputed champions of rugby in every way, shape and form.
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How can you complain for spending 6 quid! How much did you get paid for writing such dribble! In addition you will be able to claim it back on expenses!!
There are many different versions of the Haka they all stem from tradition it was not made up especially for every All Black rugby match. The only reason it had to be changed it was some viewers found the throat slit gesture offensive.
Why only pick on the All Blacks
Samoa, Fiji and Tonga to name a few all perform a Haka. Have you ever thought of spending another 2 quid and checking your facts before picking on one nation!
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oh come on. it really doesnt take the haka to intimidate an opposition. the all blacks do that by their wonderful rugby. what's the whinging about the haka for? it's fantastic to see it whatever form it takes. anyway to all the idiots saying it's a form of intimidtation- get real and a good team wont be intimidated anyway. it's a pity other countries dont have such a tradition, but that's not the kiwis fault and the haka shouldnt be stopped just because other countries dont have a similar thing.
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I have no problem with the Haka and enjoy the spectacle itself. But what noone seems to have mentioned - and I haven't read all 536 responses so far! - is that the AB's demand to dictate how the opposition receive the Haka, otherwise you are disrespecting it. Well you can't have it both ways, and perhaps that's why Campo went to the other end of the field because he - like many others - do not want to be dictated to by the opposition at the start of a match. By all means do the Haka, entertain with it and lay the challenge down - but let the oppositition respond to it the way they wish. The traditional English way would be to walk towards the opposition, give them a good stare and tell them to 'sod off'. Would this be okay?
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has anyone seen the new adidas impossible is nothing haka advert? it explains what the haka means for the new zealanders themselves.
once you listen to that, its hardly just tradition to them!
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I am quite surprised by all the comments in regard to "Why should the All Blacks do the Haka when their are so many Samoans, Tongas etc in the New Zealand team".
It is a very narrow minded approach from people who obviously have no concept of what New Zealand has become over the last 20 to 30 years.
It is a very multi cultural country now, that has become the Polynesian capital of the world. Auckland has the largest population of South Sea Islanders anywhere, and that includes the Islands themselves. This is because of natural economic migration.
Maybe some countries should have a good look at the people playing in there sporting teams these days, Dallaglio, Panaesar, all the athletes of Carribean extraction. All very British sounding
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Absolutely agree. Ban the Haka or at most give NZ the option of it instead of the anthem. The anthems are there to indicate the international nature of the match and provide a way of getting the fans into it - the Haka is a one-sided display that the major colonial powers have allowed the NZ team through indulgence. Let's get rid of it.
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Actually it frightens the life out of me, and I'm sure it does give them the 'last psychological word' before the game. The best repost to it that I ever saw was many years ago before a rugby league international. Somehow I never thought that the Kiwis' Haka was as convincing as their Union counterparts' version, but on this occasion a portion of the GB supporters accompanied the war-dance with a rendering of 'Oh, okey kokey kokey'.
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Having read all the negative coments regarding the Haka I suggest you all need to do a bit of reaserch and find out what it really means before you can justify whinging about it. Don't forget to get those MBE's ready for after the game on friday. Just in case you win.
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Whatever! Here we go again you POM'S may not be world champions at rugby for much longer, any more than you can manage a world championship in any of your other national games like football or cricket but you will always be 1st class world champions at whinging, whining, backbiting and complaining. News flash boys and girls the haka has nothing to do with you. It is a New Zealand sporting tradition of our national rugby team and has been so for generations. You are lucky that we extend to you the privilege of sharing this sceptical before a game.
I was at Murryfield on Sunday the rugby crowd Scots, New Zealanders, South Africans, Swiss, French etc from all over the world who turned up to see the AB's play loved the haka. It added to markedly to the drama and the sceptical of the occasion and was one of the few things, which did.
The anthems were appalling, for that ticket price having to listen to a rubbish French recording of both was pathetic. They made a complete hash of both the Maori and English verses of God Defend New Zealand and then the Flower of Scotland, (without a pipe band) and no live singer to lead either was rude and demeaning to both nations. I would suggest a more worthwhile use of Andrew Cotters time and pennies would be to put his English talent for whinging to use by complaining about the RWC organisers making a better effort pre-match for the fans rather than trying to belittle and denigrate another nations pride in their traditions and culture. Maybe Andrew and the rest of his sad crew of knockers posting here would be better spending the time trying to come up with something in their own culture to be proud about that rugby fans from all over the world will appreciate and enjoy. As for this notion of disrespecting the haka all I can say is if you feel that way inclined go for it. I can think of nothing that would give an All Black team more motivation to win than that. The AB's are hard enough to beat as it is but fired up by acts of disrespect or deliberate rudeness I wouldn't like to be on the receiving end of that and neither I would suggest would many of your players. So let us move on from flogging this dead horse and the others in this vein dragged out by the ignorant and desperate for knocking the All Blacks like tackling, cheating and the Pacific Islander's lets grow up and move on to positive aspects of the game shall we.
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It is sad that some unknown, would-be commentator can't take a little notice of John Smit, who felt it was a privilege to watch the new haka for the first time. Allowing tradition to stay in the game, and the haka has become a tradition, is important as the game of Rugby moves forward. It is important to note that if tradition was removed from the game, England would never again win a game, because penalty kicks for goal would have to be removed and hardly anyone can remember when England last scored a try.
Besides, who is Andrew Cotter? Did he play Tiddly-Winks? Maybe he should meet the All Blacks!
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Having done the haka at 3am on New Year's morning with a bunch of Kiwi visitors, I have no qualms about the ritual before a match. It's just good fun. Howsabout if the Scots responded by bringing on a reserve to make up two sets for the eightsome reel. Make them wear kilts as well and that would really confuse the opposition!!!
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Yawn ....not this again
A 91热爆 reporter at the Biggest Rugby event and what can he come up with?
To the Kiwis who have posted on here, Don't bother to try to Educate these NH people because they think that a New Zealander is either White or Maori and if you are not that then you have been Poached as a 5yr old.Why do people here in the UK think that if you鈥檙e from NZ you are either White or Maori, I guess they also think being Australian is either White or Aboriginal, Canadian either White or Eskimo, American either White or Red Indian. I think they have a problem
Wasn't it Tana Umanga who said he was a New Zealander with Samoan/Polynesian heritage, Proud of who he is....Proud of his Past. Would love to see someone tell Jerry or Rodney "you're not a Kiwi"
As for when the Haka should be done, Lets look back shell we.....Wales wanted their Anthem to be done after the Haka a few yrs back, What was the Score? who won? then they wanted to do it again and NZ said no, and did the Haka in the changing room, well before the singing....Can someone tell me the score in that game? Didn't help Wales one bit did it.
NZ didnt perform the Haka at home until I think it was mid 80's ( I may be wrong ) lets look at the results 1900-1985
Played 106 won 76 lost 22 5 draws So they win over 70% of the time
Played in NH 1905-1985
Played 48 won 37 lost 8 3 draws
S they win over 70%of the time
So not doing the Haka they win 70% plus and when they performed it in the NH they win over 70% of the time,but that could just be the fact that the NZ team are just far better than the NH teams.
Since "Buck " said ok if we "the All Blacks" are going to do the Haka lets do it correctly.
To the Person who said it give's them a Psychological just before kick off......Is it a psychological advantage??
Do England get a Psychological Advantage when fans sing "Swing Low" during the? Do the Welsh get an Advantage when they sing Bread of Heaven, Or the Scottish when they hear the Bag pipes etc
I dont see what the colour of ones skin has to do with doing the Haka.
It is a NZ thing (and when I say NZ I mean Maori-European's Samoan Tonaga etc) Please note NH, you can be born in one country and still have heritage from another country.
The "New Haka" is still traditon, its just a new "haka" as someone pointed out the one preformed in 1900 is different to the one in 1930's 50's 70's etc.
Wasn't the new one designed to reflect the make up of NZ and what it means to be a NZder/All Black?
As for this NZ poach B/S At this World Cup
NZ have 26 players playing for 9 different teams
England have 14 player playing for 4 different teams
South Africa have 16 players playing 8 different teams
Australia have 3 players in 3 different teams
Samoa have 5 players in 1 other team
Fiji have 5 players in 4 other teams
Tonga have 6 players in 3 other teams
Argentina have 8 players in 2 other teams
England 4 players from 3 other countries
Mike Catt Port Elizabeth (South Africa)
Perry Freshwater Wellington (New Zealand)
Simon Shaw Nairobi (Kenya)
Matt Stevens Durban (South Africa)
Wales 7 players from 4 countries
Chris Horsman Newport Pagnell (England)
Dafydd James Mufulira (Zambia)
Colin Charvis Sutton Coldfield (England)
Ian Evan Johannesburg (South Africa)
Will James Plymouth (England)
Sonny Parker Thames (New Zealand)
Tom Shanklin Harrow (England)
Scotland 10 players from 3 countries
John Barclay Hong Kong (Hong Kong)
Andrew Henderson Chatham (England)
Gavin Kerr Newcastle upon Tyne (England)
Dan Parks Hornsby (Australia)
Craig Smith York (England)
Rob Dewey Marlborough (England)
Jim Hamilton Swindon (England)
Nathan Hines Wagga Wagga (Australia)
Hugo Southwell London (England)
Simon Webster Hartlepool (England)
Ireland 5 from 4 countries
Simon Easterby Harrogate (England)
Ronan O鈥橤ara San Diego (United States of America)
Frankie Sheahan Toronto (Canada)
Isacc Boss Tokoroa (New Zealand)
Malcolm O鈥橩elly Chelmsford (England)
France 4 players from 4 countries
Pieter de Villiers Malmesbury (South Africa)
Thierry Dusautoir Abidjan (C么te D'Ivoire)
Serge Betsen Kumba (Cameroon)
Yannick Nyanga Kinshasa (Congo)
Canada 3players from 2
Nick Trenkel Randburg (South Africa)
James Pritchard Parkes (Australia)
D Van der Merwe Worcester (South Africa)
USA 12 players from 7 countries
Philip Eloff Thabazimbi (South Africa)
Vahafolau Esikia Neiafu (Tonga)
Matekitonga Moeakiola Tongatapu (Tonga)
Takudzwa Ngwenya Harare (Zimbabwe)
Inaki Basauri Monterrey (Mexico)
Chad Erskine Pietermaritzburg (South Africa)
Owen Lentz King Williams Town (South Africa)
Valenese Malifa (American Samoa)
Hayden Mexted Whakatane (New Zealand)
Fifita Mounga Ha'asini (Tonga)
Andrew Osborne Suva (Fiji)
Salesi Sika Haveluloto (Tonga)
Italy 15 from 6 countries
Matias Aguero Buenos Aires (Argentina)
Gonzalo Canale C贸rdoba (Argentina)
Martin Castrogiovanni Parana (Argentina)
Carlo Del Fava Umtata (South Africa)
Sergio Parisse Mar del Plata (Argentina)
Ramiro Pez C贸rdoba (Argentina)
Kaine Robertson Auckland (New Zealand)
Marko Stanojevic Birmingham (England)
Manoa Vosawai Suva (Fiji)
David Bortolussi Auch (France)
Pablo Canavosio C贸rdoba (Argentina)
Roland de Marigny Durban (South Africa)
Santiago Dellape Mar del Plata (Argentina)
Paul Griffen Dunedin (New Zealand)
Josh Sole Hamilton (New Zealand)
Portugal 3 from 2
Juan Severino (Argentina)
Andre Silva Paris (France)
David Penalva (France)
Romania
-
Georgia
-
Japan 6 players from 3 countries
C Kim, Seoul (Korea, Republic of)
Hare Makiri Thames (New Zealand)
Phillip O鈥橰eilly Hamilton (New Zealand)
Bryce Robins New Plymouth (New Zealand)
Christian Loamanu (Tonga)
Luke Thompson (New Zealand)
Argentina
Esteban Lozada (Belgium)
Namibia 4 players from 1 other country
Lu-Wayne Botes (South Africa)
Johannes Meyer (South Africa)
Jacques Nieuwenhuis (South Africa)
Piet Van Zyl (South Africa)
South Africa 2 player from 2 countries
Percy Montgomery Walvis Bay (Namibia)
Bobby Skinstad Bulawayo (Zimbabwe)
Australia (6) from 6
George Gregan Lusaka (Zambia)
Stephen Moore Khamis (Saudi Arabia)
Lote Tuqiri Sigatoka (Fiji)
Matt Dunning Calgary (Canada)
Guy Shepherdson Jakarta (Indonesia)
Daniel Vickerman Cape Town (South Africa)
New Zealand (8) from 3 different countries
Chris Masoe (Samoa)
J Rokocoko (Fiji)
Rodney 厂辞鈥檕颈补濒辞 (Samoa)
Isaia Toeava (Samoa)
Jerry Collins (Samoa)
Sione Lauaki (Tonga)
Mils Muliana (Samoa)
S Sivivatu (Fiji)
Fiji (1)
Nicky Little (New Zealand)
Tonga (1)
Ephraim Taukafa (New Zealand)
Samoa 13 player from another Country
Tanielu Fuga (New Zealand)
Cenus Johnson (New Zealand)
Kas Lealamanua (New Zealand)
Daniel Loe (New Zealand)
Justin Purdie (New Zealand)
Sailosi Tagickibau (New Zealand)
Kane Thompson (New Zealand)
Gavin Williams (New Zealand)
Lome Fa鈥檃tau (New Zealand)
Leo Lafaiali鈥檃i (New Zealand)
Junior Polu (New Zealand)
Elvis Seveali鈥橧 (New Zealand)
Justin Va鈥檃 (New Zealand)
Is Mike Catt not English? as he was born in SA
Is Ronan O'gara not Irish as he was born in USA
Are 10 of the Scottish players not really Scottish as they were born in another country?
鈥渁 team mostly of white anglo-saxons who perform a war dance of a nation they tried to wipe out鈥. I think you will find that it was the British that tried to wipe the maori nation out.( I think they the British tried to do that to a few countrys didn鈥檛 they?!) Don鈥檛 confuse a New Zealander with being British. Welsh Irish Scottish English all the same really???
NZ anthem sung in 2 Language's...So what, they are proud of their Country, South Africas National Anthem is sung in 5 different languages
Maybe if us in the NH spent more time training and getting better at sport then moaning and "picking on" Smaller Nations because they are better than us we will have better Sports teams. Funny how when it comes to the Commonweath Games we are England but when it comes to bigger sports events we have to run and get help.
I think its just here in the NH it comes down to just 1 thing and that is big case of Jealousy. How can this small nation be so good at Ruggers, We are a super Power but cant beat this little Nation its just not fair.
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Strangely enough I found similar thoughts going through my mind at the weekend. What puts New Zealand on a different level to other teams that forces their opposition to stand and watch them perform the Haka. No matter what they say it allows them as a team to get together and get pumped and leaves the opposition standing still cooling off. If this doesnt give you an advantage at kick off I dont know what else would.
I think it is a fantastic spectacle and one that should be maintained. But if they want to do it maybe they should consider performing to the crowd before the anthems and the opposition come out of the tunnel. This would be fairer and would keep a beautiful tradition of the game. Currently it is an unfair advantage and should not be seen as obligatory for the opposition to stand and watch.
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The Haka is fun to watch and makes your hair stand on end. If the ABs want to perform it and none of the participating teams have any objection then they should, but I also think that the teams participating should be allowed to show as much interest as they want and not made to stand and watch massive blokes telling them they are gonna slit their throats! For example I would love to see the England team lined up against them and at every shout and scream just walk one pace forward until they are in there faces. No disrespect but throwing down their own challenge to the men that are allowed to dance and scream at them! Also it is not the traditional haka as that stems from actual war/fight challenges and was usually performed by an individual challenging another! The ABs first tour to UK was when a much more characteristic haka was performed. No single players movements were the same as the others!
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Guys the Haka is one of the greatest traditions in sport. In my opinion I think that to face such a dance would do just as much to you psychologically as it would to perform it. At school I played against New Plymouth High School when they were on tour, and they performed a haka too. Having to face it was a great experience and it pumped us all up hugely! However, I do believe that as many argue that the opposition should be able to respond how they wish. Like the famous Brian Moore (I think) shot of his tounge out in their faces! Brilliant, how could you want to loose it?
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Only reason my wife allows me to watch the rugby is to see the haka.
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I'm English and I like the Haka, particularly when it's powerfully performed, but it's daft to pretend that it doesn't do its bit to psyche the All Blacks up. It's a war dance, for Heaven's sake; what else is it for? Being an aggressive demonstration that gets the blood up makes it well suited to rugby, which is no doubt why the All Blacks are keen to hang on to it (while NZ cricketers don't bother with anything similar).
The only appropriate response to the Haka is to respond with an aggressive gesture of your own. Talk of dancing misses the point. Furthermore, it certainly shouldn't be up to the Kiwis to decide what constitutes an acceptable retort.
On that point, too many people (not necessarily Kiwis) seem to think that, unless you're a Pacific Island nation with an aesthetically pleasing war dance of your own, the only option is to stand there passively while the ABs whip themselves into a frenzy. Why, if you're issuing a warlike challenge, is the response of the other side a problem? Surely you should expect to get it back? I'm sure that at least some Kiwis would like to see a challenge to it, just as they might like to see the odd hard-fought rugby match, rather than straightforward walkovers of supine European teams.
Since ritualised war-dances are a feature of relatively primitive tribal societies, it's hardly surprising that European nations lack them. We'd all have to go back at least 1200 years to find anything, and how much relevance would that have? However, taunting the enemy before battle is traditional almost everywhere, and I'd certainly like to see some imaginative taunts answering the Haka back. If in doubt, our boys could fall back on old favourites. The English have a good one, now universally understood: when the French captured English longbowmen during the 100 years war, they cut their fingers off to stop them using their bows; in response, the English developed a two-fingered salute which signified "F**k you, I've still got mine." You can't get more traditionally English than the V-sign, and the sight of the English squad jeering and giving the ABs the two fingers as they performed the Haka would be worth seeing.
Of course, taunting the other side ends up looking a bit silly if you get crushed in the ensuing contest, but that ought to act as a spur to our lads. If nothing else, it ought to remind them of something that the ABs understand all too well: that the only acceptable result in sport, like war, is winning.
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I dont mind them doing the haka. But we should be able to respond. Like Richard Cockerill did in 1997. They didnt like it. Plus it spices the game up a little.
That idiot who said we should not sing our national athems is just wrong. I love singing God Save The Queen. I know i would feel very proud to sing it in a England shirt.
Come on England. GOD SAVE THE QUEEN.
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Yes, the British (English?) national anthem is a bore. Billy Connelly once suggested it should be replaced with the much livelier theme to the Archers. All together now, tum-te-tum-te-tum-te-tum-te-tum, tum-te-tum-te-dah-dah....
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Why does the number of Maoris in the All Black side influence whether the haka should be done?
It is part of the native culture that has been cherished and celebrated by all New Zealanders (British settlers, Pacific Island Settlers, European Settlers and Maori). Maori Culture had a renaissance in the late 70s after almost expiring. Hence the pronounced increase in pride and execution.
NZ is a multicultural society and so is the UK. Example Kevin Peterson, Mike Catt, Matt Stevens, Monty Pannasar, Perry Freshwater.
I'm half Samoan and half English Settler. I relished the chance to do my first Haka for the 1st XV. It is an advantage and one I am proud to enjoy.
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Post 530. Wildgoose.
Please do some research before commenting. The Haka has been performed by NZ teams in one form or another since 1888. And Ka Mate(what some posters have called "traditional") is anything but. Thought a version was performed by the 1888 "Native" team & 1905 All Blacks.
The 1924 All Blacks had their own, unique Haka - the "new" Haka is very similar - which was performed facing the opposition and the 1937 All Blacks performed their Haka in private. The '63/'64 All Blacks Haka was Ka Mate and it was also performed facing the opposition.
At the end of the day if the opposition don't want the AB's to do the Haka, that's OK with them and they'll do it in private.
Oh but if they do that they'll be accused of being precious won't they?
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Yeah...it would be interesting if other nations could respond to the Haka with a dance/song from their own culture.
England could do a ritualized tea break...and the French could do impressions of inspector Clousseau.
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Toughen up guys and girls its tradition, if you ever played against a team that performed a Haka then its normally just the inspiration you need! Its a two way street and pro sports players would treat it that way, or probably wouldn't be very good pro's anyhow :-) PS: I'm 110% English too...the 10% being my pet dog ;-)
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I think the circumstances prevailing when the Haka was first used by the ABs and those now are very different. Rugby was played by amateurs who loved playing 1st and foremost with not quite so much prestige / money at stake. The game is now professional and every physical and physcological advantage is planned to the last detail. Nothing is done without a purpose and that includes the Haka. The intensity and purpose of the Haka is to provide the ABs with an advantage over the opposition and that is why they do it. What is good for the goose is good for the gander and opposing teams must be allowed to come up with their own response and the ABs should be made to stand around passively and take it.
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was it David Campese who went to the other end of the pitch and played with the ball and refused to face the haka? he realised i think the unfair advantage of this...it really psychs them up...and the others have to stand and face it. Again, if memory serves me well, wasn't it Gavin Hastins who eye balled them aggressively and when the haka finished took a few steps towards them to answer.
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To BrucieB at 503, and others:
"another pom writer talking through his hat"
Erm, try looking at who wrote the article - on his profile it says he comes from South West Scotland.
There seems to be quite a few people who regard anything said that they don't like and blame it on the English. I have also seen this happen with the other blog writers, esp. the Welsh.
Try a bit of basic fact checking, or even reflection before reaching for the keyboard will you? It only makes you come across as either ignorant (at best) or a little bit racist.
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Regardless of what you think of the Haka (I'm a fan, but not of the new one), I'm disturbed by one of the trends on these boards, largely stoked by uninformed British Media. That is the claim that New Zealand poaches/bribes Islanders. Almost all of the All Blacks were born or raised in New Zealand and acquired New Zealand nationality otherwise then through rugby. Equally, 12 of the current Samoan team were born in New Zealand, and God knows how many were raised here. The truth is that the Pacific Island teams are mostly made up of Islands who emigrated to New Zealand for economic reasons. All Blacks of Island extraction are not kidnapped from their island paradise and press-ganged into sport, as some in the UK seem to imagine. For example in the last week Stephen Jones in The Times has said that Tana Umaga, amongst others, was disloyal for playing for the All Blacks. Umaga was born in New Zealand. It's time to acknowledge that these types of comments are racist are should stop. It would not be acceptable in the UK to say that because Rio Ferdinand, for example, is of St Lucian extraction, he should not play football for England, but the "poaching" claims repeated on these pages are no different.
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The use of the haka to get a pyschlogical edge over your opponent. I dont believe it If any of you Have seen the haka performed before the 1973 Barbarians Game. You would agree with me that Its all about bringing People to watch the Game of Rugby. Its a great thing to watch every time NZ play. Just let them perform it, But if they do perform the Original Haka as it was more exciting to watch before a game !!!
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Why can't people handle the haka? Sport is entertainment, let the crowd enjoy the occasion. The haka is now part of the whole rugby brand, not just NZ - it would be like taking away the Dalai Lama's groovy sunglasses. To prove they are the real deal, ALL NZ teams should haka, whether its possum skinning, synchronized swimming or chess. Also, Scotland should be allowed to respond to the haka with a rendition of "500 Miles" and England - well, at the moment "Agadoo" would seem appropriate.
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What is Maori? I've just come back from New Zealand, where I heard an interesting discussion about the composition of a recent NZ Maori side that included Christian Cullen. The point of the debate was that nobody was quite clear about his qualification to play, beyond his own assertion that somewhere in his lineage, he was. On that basis why get precious about who's really qualified to do the haka and who isn't, or where a player's birthplace might be?
Reading this forum, it seems to me that the only people who take the war dance overly seriously are the Kiwis themselves. The rest of us either like it, loath it or are somewhere in between. But you see, that's our right. Just as the Kiwis demand the right to perform it, other nations must be allowed to react to it in any way they think fit.
Problem is that the ABs seem to demand that the opposition do homage to the spectacle, and get very humpty when the Boks or the Irish link arms and square up to them, or when the Italians respond by pretending to be Celtic and going into a huddle.
They want to dance, let them. We want to yawn, let us.
By the way, none of this is as meaningful as the fate of the small contingent of English followers who begn to sing Chariots in the Nether Abbey in North Berwick during the Boks game. Oh dear.
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Its simple - the haka is entertaining, it makes people get excited about the sport. Shall we stop those Brazilian women wearing bras at the football world cup? (actually, maybe we should) Get rid of the Olympic rings? Its all part of the same thing - its things like the haka which make sport entertaining.
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The Haka or 'watch me while I rant and stomp' performed by a group of very talented sportsmen, intended to intimidate the opposition who actually stand and watch. Opposing teams should not give the All Blacks the pleasure of having a captive audience, they should ignore it; show complete indifference by playing a game of cards or browsing through the latest Argos catalogue. Lets face it they're probably going to get whupped anyway , Haka or no Haka. (Why does that word remind me of someone clearing their throat?)
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Interesting comment by Matt about Tana Umanga and how he is "proud of who he is, and proud of his past". I wonder whether Umanga was equally proud when he formed part of the duo who performed the spear tackle on Brian O'Driscoll in the opening minutes of the first test against the Lions.
Luckily,for all concerned, O'Driscoll was out for months instead of a lifetime. If, however, O'Driscoll had ended up in a wheelchair, would Umanga still have retained the same degree of pride in his identity ?
Sure, the New Zealand perception was that O'Driscoll did not respect the haka. But does such a perception suffice to justify two players placing the bodily integrity of another player in serious jeopardy ? Under no circumstances, in my opinion.
So, by all means, perform the haka. But don't imperil the personal safety of people whom you perceive - either rightly or wrongly - as not having sufficient respect for the haka.
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We watch rugby to be entertained. The haka is real sporting theatre. It gets the players going and it gets the crowd going. There is no competetive advantage unless the oppostion are already scared. In which case they deserve to lose.
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I'm not sure what I am more annoyed about. The fact that people are complaining about something that is a spectacle in itself (and has been instrumental in bringing not only infamy to the All Blacks but also to Rugby and the Rugby World Cup) or the fact I wasted moments of my life reading this "Blog".
Andrew obviously has a bee in his bonnet about something and is looking for something to have a dig at the "Blacks" about. So how do you do this? Spend 1/3 of your article moaning about how long it takes to write and article and how much it is costing you to do it. And then apart from your title "Hacked off" which is an ingenious play on the words "Haka". Don't back up in the article anything of any worth. Your article is intended only to inflame and annoy. You even say you enjoy watching it!
I feel slightly more stupid than when I started and have just taken a shower.
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Briefly (because who's going to read the 500 and somethingth comment?):
- I like the haka.
- It doesn't bother me but I can understand those who argue against the concept of the 'traditional' haka when changes have been made to it over the years.
- What does bother me is this politcally correct outrage at the throat slitting gesture. The haka is a war dance, isn't it? Also, it's not really a threat that is likely to be carried out on the field. I'd be more concerned if the haka included a punch in the nuts gesture...
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Boy have you stirred up a hornets nest. All the comments about how persons perseve the HAKA are really funny to read. being bought up with haka practice at High school a " must " all sissies even included!
Those who have travelled to NZ are the only ones obviously who can truly comment about a tradition. It would be more worth while commenting about how SOFT the game is becoming with refs` whistles not allowing anyone to walk ove rthe player from behind last feet to get to pay. Maybe after living over in the Northern hemisphere I`ve grown up with this pack of softies?? Tuffin up and grow up you guys it`s only a game.let them get on with it ( Haka) & tuffin up you Northerners ( if you can ?? )
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I wish they wouldn't keep changing the choreography because it moves away from the tradition of the Historial sun god warriors theme. However I think it is important part of the game as a supporter whether you love them or hate them.I live in the States now whereas before I lived in southern Africa, I saw the "HAKA" on my 5th birthday and I fell in love with the game. It is those little things that help pass the game on to next generations and for them to play it with the comradrie we have. I have been here in the States 8 years and no other sports comes close. Some of my best friends today I would never have met if I had never played our game; and I would never have played our great game if I never saw the "HAKA" on that day.
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I couldn't give a monkey's about the haka. If they want to perform a silly war dance, fine. Just don't whinge when somebody treats it with the contempt it deserves.
Currie "would like too know how many have been posted by whinging bloody poms".
Seems to me that every time I hear that phrase, it's coming from a whinging Aussie, hoping to draw attention away from his or her Aussie whinging.
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Wow, when those Kiwis bite, they really bite big!
The Haka may well have been traditional in the past, but times change, things evolve...or even die out. Get over it.
Why do the AB's do the Haka? To fire themselves up? To show pride in playing for their country? To intimidate the opposition? To look pretty on TV? Or all of the above? Either way (with the exception of the TV one) they are trying to gain an advantage over their opponants, whether by intimidation or pumping themselves up. If it is just pumping themselves up, why do they get so precious because someone has shown that they are not intimidated and choose to do their own thing, whether that is going into a huddle, fronting them full on or picking up a bit of grass.
If the AB's want to do the haka then let them, but don't let them dictate where and when. It's not disrespectful to suggest they do it before anthems. If they just want to show their pride then what difference does it make when it is performed...unless of course it is to intimidate opponants. And most importantly every team should be able to respond or take up the challenge in what ever way they want without the AB's going into a sulk.
And spare me the "Holier than thou" rubbish about not understanding rugby, just because I have a different opinion to you
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The Haka should be seen as a bit of fun and theatre by both teams and should not be dragged into the politically correct brigade's sights.
The crowds love it when the oppo responds to the Haka, so where's the problem. Apart from when the All Balcks take themselves so seriously that they have to avenge any percieved slight and consider it Carte Balnce for injuring someone as in Brian O'Driscol's case.
Keep the fun, drop the injuries
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Yeap completely agree with the report by the jorno.
Do what you want in the haka. Go walkies, drop yer draws and do team bottom showing in response to it. It is plainly something which teams, should, if they want be able to respond to or not as the case may be.
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Can't say I've been "entertained" by a NZ haka for a long time. It's a bit dull now, isn't it? Grown men jumping around, pulling faces, giving it the cer-razy eye stuff.
If the All Blacks have some deep-set reason to do it then, good for them, they can knock themsleves out, but the opposition should just ignore it, stretch off, have a team talk, whatever, then get ready for kick off. I'd imagine they'd get slated for a "lack of respect" or some such, but so what?
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What a lot of BALLYHOO over nothing!! The thing that people are forgetting here is that the opposing side (regardless of who they may be) are not going to watch the haka (or not watch it) and start whinging "ooh we can't win now because they have done a war dance!". Once the game starts the players are fully focussed and can't remember even singing the national anthem! It is all even when the first whistle is blown.
As a Kiwi I should set a few people, who are unfamiliar to the origins of the haka, straight. The haka was performed by BOTH opposing sides in a 'potential' war to demonstrate dominance, and thus avoid actually going to war and having half the village killed. Hence the English should do a Morris dance etc etc in response to try and gain dominance. Can't wait to see Lawrence Dallaglio is a skirt!!
AB's to win this year!!
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I can understand why this is being questioned, however the perfect response is to play good rugby, & challenge the other team on the pitch!
If so many countries had not lost over many hundreds of years ago that which made them special we would all have some traditional cultural exchanges to share! Perhaps we are all just sad that we no longer have distinct cultural identities?
However I am confused how any of the bloggers think the northern hemisphere teams could fit into their schedules dance training when they clearly need to be spending their time going back to basics to ensure they can keep beating the so called 'minnows teams'!!!
Or perhaps the IRB should be funding every team a dance coach in preparation for the next outing in four years time?
I am sure Bruce Forsyth & Tess Daly would be available for the commentary??
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It's stupid. Lose it.
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If New Zealand played like Scotland or Ireland and won a few games here and there---there would be no complaints at all about the Haka.
Unfortunately for some, New Zealand has consistently put together strong sides that usually (but now always) have won. To me, this whole Haka issue is a cheap shot.
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I wonder how the NZ fans would feel if the English players started flipping the AB's off with V's? For all of you who don't know, sticking two fingers up is an insult used at the Battle of Agincourt in 1415 by the English bowmen to the French Army(who used to cut off captured mens fingers so they could hold their bows)...now that's a traditional challenge if ever I saw one!
V'S FOR VICTORY! LOL
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The best plan in my view is to march right up to them and start singing 'Land of My Fathers' Respond to the challenge and show that you're not afraid. The ABs play on the fear factor too much, they were crap against Scotland, they were made to look good against the dire, abject and pathetic Scots
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i love the haka. people go to matches to watch a spectacle and the haka is one and to expel it would be a CRIME
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Doing the Haka is a a rugby tradition, and should be respected. Why the fuss about it now after around 100 years of it being done without all this pointless whinging? What about Fiji, Samoa and Tonga, lets blast them as well then! Oh, but they are not as successful as NZ, so it seems they escape any criticism. Just because New Zealand happen to have been the best or near best at playing rugby throughout their history, doesn't mean anyone has a right to disrespect an honourable tradition of culture. The English can blame their ancestors for invading a Maori land and exposing them to rugby if they have a problem with it. Just because the Haka is performed differently, doesn't mean it's any less traditional than Ka Mate, it is still a Haka, a sign of Maori culture. Slamming NZ's right to perform a Haka as the always have done is biggoted thing to do, disrespectful, and even racist.
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Whilst I disagree TOTALLY about the idea of banning the Haka (I'm English and I tink it's a part of rugby that needs to stay - like the baa-baas!) I DO agree that there should be a right to respond in some way, shape or form.
Remember Cockerill when he confronted Norm Hewitt as he was performing the haka, going toe to toe and just staring? Yup, he got called up about it by the RFU and a few Kiwis said it was disrespectful! WHY?? Just why is it disrespectful??
You Kiwis have a God given right to perform a war dance at anyone and they have to just stay still as statues and mute? I say let people confront it and add to the pre-match drama!
Brilliant!
The haka stays!!
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The opposition team should simply wait till the Haka is over and then moon them en masse.
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No. 503. Evans is Welsh, both Mum and dad are Welsh. Daffyd James is the same and Tom Shanklin's dad played for Wales. I'll give you the rest!
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Seeing as you are employed by the 91热爆 then surely it was 拢6 which we spent bacause we (as tv licence owners) pay for your wages? So does that mean we get to moan about it?
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Why all the fuss? The words are so pathetic when you know them........
Ka mate Ka mate
It is death It is death
Ka ora Ka ora
It is life It is life
Ka mate Ka mate
It is death It is death
Ka ora Ka ora
It is life It is life
Tenei Te Tangata Puhuruhuru
This is the hairy man
Nana i tiki mai whakawhiti te ra
Who caused the sun to shine again for me
Upane Upane
Up the ladder Up the ladder
Upane Kaupane
Up to the top
Whiti te ra
The sun shines!
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What many people fail to realise that this isn't a new haka at all. There are many diferent traditional 'war dances'. It is just that the Kapa O pango 'New' one is just different. Surely in a game steeped in tradition isn't going to quibble over a few minutes of entertainment for the crowd and a challenge laid down to players? Speaking as an Englishman I just think that this is sour grapes as we don't even have an anthem that stirs the emotions before our games. I also agree witht the point that no one is complaining about Samoa, Fiji, Tonga etc and their own traditional challenges!
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I think a collective mooning of the haka by the opposition is the way to go. I'm sick of the aura created by New Zealand. They're not the 'all-blacks', they are just an international rugby team like any other, they should be called as such. Then again since lots of their players are poached from other countries maybe New Zealand isn't a good name for them either...
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In think the haka should continue but should be done before the oppsoing teams national anthem to give ther oppositon a chance to reply
But it certainly shouldn't be banned
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Ireland are learning Riverdance to the tune of "Don't cry for me Argentina" to perform at the end of their match on Sunday before they go home if past results are anything to go by.
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I love watching the haka when I don't really care about the teams...but some times I wish my boys could get a little more than just a song and a little teary eyed swaying.
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Just found a great clip on google vid of the Fijians and NZers both going for it before an aussie rules games...at the finish they're right up in each others faces and having to be pulled apart. Looks great though.
As a Taff i love seeing the siva tau/cibi/haka and wouldn't get rid of them, although it does irk me when SOME of our New Zealand friends get upset when sides face up to the Haka or meet it in any other way than standing there silently, the furore in Cardiff last year for example was just petulent.
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I thought the traditional Scottish challenge to combat began with, "See you..."
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It's Tradition - it's always been part of the whole occasion when the All Blacks play. What is bad is when they can't perform it, like the autumn game in Cardiff when they did the haka in the tunnel.
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Paul Anderson...it was actually Welsh bowmen at Agincourt!
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the haka is a complete disgrace if you ask me. i love it being performed and even know the words to it! but they should never get the final say, and the all blacks dont even know thir culture, as seen when tana umaga and co nailed brian o'dricsoll of the ball and felt he disrespected the hake when in actual fact it was the best thing he could have done
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Let's face it, the New Zealanders are the World Champions... at getting in a tizzy when anyone should have the temerity to criticise their little dance. "It's traditional, it represents our culture" they squeal, as if that's a good enough reason to retain it and allow them the last word before kick-off. As I understand it, tucking into missionaries was traditional too, but I don't see many of them doing a Hannibal Lecter with their half-time pint.
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I think the authorities should allow the Haka but in the NZ changing room. The frenzy that seems to engulf this ritualistic thigh slapping dance medley I think is a bit embarassing - outdated. I liked the Haka that was performed by the touring All Blacks v the Barbarians at Cardiff Arms Park in 1972 - none of them really knew how to do it, it was out of time, they were looking left and right to see who actually knew the moves - hilarious and worth a look. Reminds me of the hokey cokey.
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Without the haka and the All Blacks, rugby would be just another minor international sport (rubbing shoulders with other great sports such as 'underwater scrabble' and 'beach gumboot tossing'). As a kiwi, it is great seeing the haka performed by cream and mocha coloured players alike.
We just need to convince Kiwi table tennis players of the lemon coloured persuasion to perform the haka prior to their games at the Beijing Olympics. Go Kiwi!
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I like the Haka but the new style is just a bit weak and feeble for my taste - not so much warriors psychologically undermining their foes, as spoilt children stamping and shouting, with a bit of rhythm thrown in.
Personally, I think the English team (in the unlikely event that they face the All-blacks this year) should respond in kind. I'm all for the Monty Python's close quarter display of camping up
That'd throw them.
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As a Welshman and staunchly Nationalistic I would hate to see the Haka go. But I would like to see it responded to, or allow the opposition to ignore it.
Quite why grown men should want to dance and have other men watch them is something of a mystery to me though.
If anyone wants to get rid of the national anthems then please watch the Portuguese singing their anthem again. These guys put their heart and soul into their anthem and it obviously moved them. They should not be deprived of the moment to show their love of their country by some churlish act of political correctness.
The Haka is part theatre and part self-psyching. It adds to teh occasion. If you really are fazed by the sight of this challenge then it says a lot more about you than those offering it!
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You should be complaining about how badly England is playing rugby than the haka! Leave it alone!
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Is this still going?
For flips sake, how many of us NH rugbypeople have wasted half a day at work or more trying to keep up with this ?
Is there anything more venerated by New Zealanders than the haka ?
Heh ... maybe its a bit more deeper than NZ natonal pride and identity ?
The movements of the "haka" routine are more akin to the movements of the shamans of what is now ancient mexico. It is an attempt to loosen or free up additional energy that is trapped around the individual human entity. This freed up energy is then deployed in the battle that is forthcoming.
Good luck to the all the NH teams in the crunch matches coming up !!
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As a Welshman and staunchly Nationalistic I would hate to see the Haka go. But I would like to see it responded to, or allow the opposition to ignore it.
Quite why grown men should want to dance and have other men watch them is something of a mystery to me though.
If anyone wants to get rid of the national anthems then please watch the Portuguese singing their anthem again. These guys put their heart and soul into their anthem and it obviously moved them. They should not be deprived of the moment to show their love of their country by some churlish act of political correctness.
The Haka is part theatre and part self-psyching. It adds to teh occasion. If you really are fazed by the sight of this challenge then it says a lot more about you than those offering it!
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right. first of all this is the best excuse by nh fans yet- we lost to the all blacks because the haka fired them up and gave them an advantage. whatever-complete rubbish. haka or no haka nz will still wipe the floor with most teams. Im irish not nz by the way. to say that the haka is the reason teams lose to nz is absolutely pathetic and it just seems that the nh fans are completely deluded. what is the big deal? if teams get intimidated by it then maybe they shouldnt be in rugby at all! to call it a ridiculous dance as some ppl on this blog have, is nonsense and plain ignorance. just because other countries dont have that kind of a ritual doesnt mean it should be banned. stop trying to cover up inferiority complexes by trying to find excuses why nz is possibly the best team in the world. honestly people- it's just too pathetic by far.
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message to blog author : Can u tell your sports editors that when they show edited highlights of the matches bewteen GB and the Kiwis (RL) that they DO NOT edit out the Haka from the programme!! I'd rather see 13 true maoris than 15 posh boys like McCaw and Carter.
Rant over
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Following the comments on the national anthems, why doesn't England have its own anthem (Land of Hope & Glory?) in line with Scotland, Ireland and Wales. God Save the Queen is for the UK not just England
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message to blog author : Can u tell your sports editors that when they show edited highlights of the matches bewteen GB and the Kiwis (RL) that they DO NOT edit out the Haka from the programme!! I'd rather see 13 true maoris than 15 posh boys like McCaw and Carter.
Rant over
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Unfair advantage??sounds like the English are clutching at straws. Ignorance is why you dont understand it and this is why you dont know how to face up to it properly. The Haka is a challenge, if you dont face up to it you have lost respect, not shown disrespect.
The Irish and French teams traditionally have shown the best attitude to it by linking arms and facing up to it, walking towards them singing their anthem. When teams do this then as NZers we are proud of them for standing strong in the face of the challenge. Teams that dont face the haka or are distracted picking grass or doing warm ups show weakness because as far as the ABs are concerned they are already too scared to look us in the eye and accept the challenge.
As far as intmidation is concerned , yes it is supposed to be intimidating (it is a war dance not a foxtrot), but when you are about to play an ABs forward pack a traditional war dance is the least of your worries.
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The Haka is a great part of rugby and I love seeing it every time.
As for a response, ABs really shouldn't get their knickers in a twist if someone stands up or makes response to the Haka.
Being a Welshman I guess the boys response should be some singing a-la Zulu with some appropriate words... "Men of Harlech stop your dreaming! Can't you see these Kiwis screaming. Onward to their try line gleaming, be thee not afraid!" Need work I know...
English chaps, sure you can put some morris dance together eh? ;)
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Yeah yeah yeah.
The haka is tradition and 'big up' to NZ for keeping up rugby tradition - like scouring the South Seas for the best talent.
I see Matt has been on again citing all the 'foreigners' in other sides. Look again fella. You'll see that all the Scots at least have some (OK tenuous) grand parentage from Scotland. OK, if Rokocoko or Collins' granny was born in Aukland, fair enough, but I don't think you can claim that.
The haka should be stopped. Not because it gives NZ an advantage, but because it is b***dy patronising. It reduces the game to Harlem Globetrotters level.
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Repost 575 with regard to my post 554
Extract from Tana's Book
The pair have spoken over the matter but have "agreed to disagree".
O'Driscoll is clearly still unhappy with the tackle that took him out of the series after the opening minutes of the first test in Christchurch and left him needing surgery.
Umaga, who reveals his side of the story in his new biography Tana Umaga 鈥 Up Close, seems content to let sleeping dogs lie and feels little remorse.
He thought nothing of the tackle at the time of the match but watched the matter snowball into a major incident the following week where heat was placed on him by the Lions' management.
The Lions maintained it was a spear tackle but Umaga escaped the judiciary system and played a major role in the All Blacks' 3-nil sweep of the series.
Now, with Umaga retired from test rugby, he reopens the controversy in a book authored by Paul Thomas.
Umaga said he tried to get in touch with O'Driscoll in Christchurch and finally managed to make contact with him when the series had switched to Wellington the following week.
"It wasn't a warm exchange. He was still angry that I hadn't gone over to see how he was and once he'd got that off his chest, he accused me of being involved in a lot of off-the-ball incidents," says Umaga in his book.
"The Lions hadn't been impressed with the way I'd played, he said, and I had to watch it. I said, 'Don't talk to me about off-the-ball incidents, talk to your own players.' (With all the fuss the Lions had made over the O'Driscoll incident, it had almost been overlooked that their lock Danny Grewcock, a player with a history of foul play, had been cited, found guilty, and banned for biting Keven Mealamu.) 'Look at Grewcock,' I said. 'He's a meathead.' 'Yeah, he is a meathead,' he said. "You can't change that but we're better than that. We shouldn't play like those guys. We thought you were a gentleman.'
"While he went on along those lines, I was thinking to myself, hang on, this is a game I take seriously. And I did: I aimed to let an opponent know I was out there and get into his mind so that next time he'd have a look to see if I was coming. I'd body-check him on the way through or if I came up quickly and the pass didn't go to him, I'd still give him a little reminder that I was around so he knew that if he didn't have his wits about him, he could get hit, and hit hard.
"I had no qualms about it; that was how I played. That's the gamesmanship of rugby. Players sledge. I sledged a bit and did so in that game. I was always trying to get an edge and in that respect I was no different to a lot of players.
"But when he started talking about off-the-ball stuff and me not being a gentleman I thought, oh, you're reaching now. I never went out to commit foul play: I didn't punch guys on the ground or stomp on them.
"So I said, 'Oh well, mate, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I'm sorry for what happened to you but there was no intent in it; it was one of those unfortunate things that happen in rugby.'
"He said, 'Yeah, but you could've helped it.' 'Okay, mate,' I said, 'all the best.' And that was where we left it."
Here's how Umaga describes the tackle on O'Driscoll:
"I went into a ruck and cleaned out Brian O'Driscoll. I was standing over the ball trying to protect it when he bounced back to have another crack at disrupting our possession. We were tussling as he tried to get through and I grabbed his leg to try to unbalance him, a technique I'd used before and still use to this day.
"What I didn't realise was that Keven Mealamu was doing the same thing on the other side of the ruck. As I got one of O'Driscoll's legs up, Keven hoisted his other leg and drove him back. He ended up with both feet off the ground, not in control of himself or the situation, a position rugby players often find themselves in. When we let him go he came down and what happened, happened. I didn't think anything of it, I just took off."
Umaga braced himself for some retaliation from the Lions in the second test in the Cake Tin and it wasn't long coming.
"As a ruck broke up, Paul O'Connell loomed over me ranting and raving. As I got up, their props Julian White and Gethin Jenkins started pushing and shoving. I knew it was going to happen at some stage so I just said, 'Come on, any time, just bring it.' I backed away slowly looking at them and saying, 'Are you going to start playing soon or what?'
"Later, when O'Connell went down, I went over to him as he was rolling around the ground and said, 'Mate, don't give up now, we're just getting started.' He jumped straight up.
"When Stephen Jones came on for Jonny Wilkinson he took the ball up yelling, 'For our captain!' like something out of Braveheart. I said, 'Are you serious?' You could see how they were trying to motivate themselves but it became quite laughable.
"I got into some of their forwards about being a bit chubby and after the game Jenkins said to Steve Hansen, who'd coached him when he'd been with Wales, 'Can you tell Tana it's nothing personal, it's just the game.' That was a bit rich coming from them. I told Steve I didn't see any of it in personal terms."
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As my Mrs said "is it compulsory for the Scotland guys to stand in a line and get shouted at for two minutes ?"
It's time opposing teams stopped colluding with this ridiculous performance. There's only one sensible response to the Haka - point 'n' laugh.
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In the case of Samoa or Tonga responding to the haka - they do. they do their own haka while the all blacks do thiers, and in the case of the Pacific Islanders v All Blacks 3 or 4 years ago, both sides got the opportunity to to do their own hakas.
there - problem solved. Now stop complaining about that and get back to making excuses about your poor performance at the cup.
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As my Mrs said "is it compulsory for the Scotland guys to stand in a line and get shouted at for two minutes ?"
It's time opposing teams stopped colluding with this ridiculous performance. There's only one sensible response to the Haka - point 'n' laugh.
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Repost 575 with regard to my post 554
Extract from Tana's Book
The pair have spoken over the matter but have "agreed to disagree".
O'Driscoll is clearly still unhappy with the tackle that took him out of the series after the opening minutes of the first test in Christchurch and left him needing surgery.
Umaga, who reveals his side of the story in his new biography Tana Umaga 鈥 Up Close, seems content to let sleeping dogs lie and feels little remorse.
He thought nothing of the tackle at the time of the match but watched the matter snowball into a major incident the following week where heat was placed on him by the Lions' management.
The Lions maintained it was a spear tackle but Umaga escaped the judiciary system and played a major role in the All Blacks' 3-nil sweep of the series.
Now, with Umaga retired from test rugby, he reopens the controversy in a book authored by Paul Thomas.
Umaga said he tried to get in touch with O'Driscoll in Christchurch and finally managed to make contact with him when the series had switched to Wellington the following week.
"It wasn't a warm exchange. He was still angry that I hadn't gone over to see how he was and once he'd got that off his chest, he accused me of being involved in a lot of off-the-ball incidents," says Umaga in his book.
"The Lions hadn't been impressed with the way I'd played, he said, and I had to watch it. I said, 'Don't talk to me about off-the-ball incidents, talk to your own players.' (With all the fuss the Lions had made over the O'Driscoll incident, it had almost been overlooked that their lock Danny Grewcock, a player with a history of foul play, had been cited, found guilty, and banned for biting Keven Mealamu.) 'Look at Grewcock,' I said. 'He's a meathead.' 'Yeah, he is a meathead,' he said. "You can't change that but we're better than that. We shouldn't play like those guys. We thought you were a gentleman.'
"While he went on along those lines, I was thinking to myself, hang on, this is a game I take seriously. And I did: I aimed to let an opponent know I was out there and get into his mind so that next time he'd have a look to see if I was coming. I'd body-check him on the way through or if I came up quickly and the pass didn't go to him, I'd still give him a little reminder that I was around so he knew that if he didn't have his wits about him, he could get hit, and hit hard.
"I had no qualms about it; that was how I played. That's the gamesmanship of rugby. Players sledge. I sledged a bit and did so in that game. I was always trying to get an edge and in that respect I was no different to a lot of players.
"But when he started talking about off-the-ball stuff and me not being a gentleman I thought, oh, you're reaching now. I never went out to commit foul play: I didn't punch guys on the ground or stomp on them.
"So I said, 'Oh well, mate, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I'm sorry for what happened to you but there was no intent in it; it was one of those unfortunate things that happen in rugby.'
"He said, 'Yeah, but you could've helped it.' 'Okay, mate,' I said, 'all the best.' And that was where we left it."
Here's how Umaga describes the tackle on O'Driscoll:
"I went into a ruck and cleaned out Brian O'Driscoll. I was standing over the ball trying to protect it when he bounced back to have another crack at disrupting our possession. We were tussling as he tried to get through and I grabbed his leg to try to unbalance him, a technique I'd used before and still use to this day.
"What I didn't realise was that Keven Mealamu was doing the same thing on the other side of the ruck. As I got one of O'Driscoll's legs up, Keven hoisted his other leg and drove him back. He ended up with both feet off the ground, not in control of himself or the situation, a position rugby players often find themselves in. When we let him go he came down and what happened, happened. I didn't think anything of it, I just took off."
Umaga braced himself for some retaliation from the Lions in the second test in the Cake Tin and it wasn't long coming.
"As a ruck broke up, Paul O'Connell loomed over me ranting and raving. As I got up, their props Julian White and Gethin Jenkins started pushing and shoving. I knew it was going to happen at some stage so I just said, 'Come on, any time, just bring it.' I backed away slowly looking at them and saying, 'Are you going to start playing soon or what?'
"Later, when O'Connell went down, I went over to him as he was rolling around the ground and said, 'Mate, don't give up now, we're just getting started.' He jumped straight up.
"When Stephen Jones came on for Jonny Wilkinson he took the ball up yelling, 'For our captain!' like something out of Braveheart. I said, 'Are you serious?' You could see how they were trying to motivate themselves but it became quite laughable.
"I got into some of their forwards about being a bit chubby and after the game Jenkins said to Steve Hansen, who'd coached him when he'd been with Wales, 'Can you tell Tana it's nothing personal, it's just the game.' That was a bit rich coming from them. I told Steve I didn't see any of it in personal terms."
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Matt, quote 554, I mentioned the pyschological advantage, and my point is still valid. Why would you be trying so hard to keep it before the kick-off rather than before the anthems, or infront of the spectators, if it wasn't otherwise?
Like I said, this issue has been around since the haka was first performed, regardless of who won the various world cups, so the doubts about it being an advantage for those performing it must be resolved.
As for your argument about "Swing low" being sang during the matches, etc, are you saying that the fans, who are paying hard earnt money for the privilege, should be told to be quiet? Now that is a poor counter-argument, and re-inforces what I said about the spirit of the game.
By the way, I fully agree with your points about the origins of the players in each national team, you have obviously done your research. For those who disagree, there are limits, which have been satisfactorily laid down by the international commitee.
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im not the greatest rugby fan i must admit, but if you get rid of the haka your getting rid of such tradition.everyone loves to see it, even non rugby fans.i dont know if its just because everyones getting scared of it, but using the excuse of it taking to long is amazing.
i tell you what why dont we get rid of the cup and just post everyone a certificate when they win.
so if we do that why not get rid of some other stuff, how about that annoying english fan whos always coverd in flags at the start of an england game, he's very annoying and has nothing to do with great tradition.
just because the haka's not are's and where probably all jealous doesnt give us any excuse to comment on it.surely it's up to the kiwis.
and what a stupid question can you not think of any better ones.
p.s sorry for my spelling
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Andrew Cotter - bigger and better men than you face up to the haka every time a rugby team fronts up against the All Blacks. And I don't hear of them running to mummy on each occasion. Why not? Because they're not girl's blouses who feel it necessary to write up a blog to complain about their poor hurt feelings.
The NZ public love the haka; most other teams' supporters love it too. And importantly, oppostion team members respect it. So I suggest you just get over your jealousy and accept that it's part and parcel of the world's greatest rugby team's heritage and tradition.
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im not the greatest rugby fan i must admit, but if you get rid of the haka your getting rid of such tradition.everyone loves to see it, even non rugby fans.i dont know if its just because everyones getting scared of it, but using the excuse of it taking to long is amazing.
i tell you what why dont we get rid of the cup and just post everyone a certificate when they win.
so if we do that why not get rid of some other stuff, how about that annoying english fan whos always coverd in flags at the start of an england game, he's very annoying and has nothing to do with great tradition.
just because the haka's not are's and where probably all jealous doesnt give us any excuse to comment on it.surely it's up to the kiwis.
and what a stupid question can you not think of any better ones.
p.s sorry for my spelling
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Yeap completely agree with the report by the jorno.
Do what you want in the haka. Go walkies, drop yer draws and do team bottom showing in response to it. It is plainly something which teams, should, if they want be able to respond to or not as the case may be.
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Wow, what are we doing? 600 comments and no Rugby?
The Kiwis and their supporters are pompously surrounding the All Blacks Haka in a five-course meal of socio-historical-cultural mumbo jumbo. The other side is almost equating it to the end of civilization as we know it, giving the ABs some psychic advantage, a second national Anthem, et al. You have all got to be kidding.
First of all, the All Black Haka 鈥 after 100 years that is what it has become 鈥 is now part of our tradition, our Rugby tradition. It is fun for fans. So leave it alone. If a team wants to do a Campese or anything else, go at it. Who cares? In today鈥檚 world it is entertainment. It is TV ratings and that is why the ABs now milk it for the camera, not some new found bond to the spirit of their island home. And I am not sure that is a bad thing. Just don鈥檛 change our Rugby tradition for some nonsensical, pseudo-political reason and expect us to buy one bit of it.
Everyone should get off their high horses, leave their principles at the door, have a few pints and watch the games. There are pretty good.
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oh my god!!!
how pathetic are you to want to get rid of the haka?!?!?!?!
its great to see and if i was playing agaisnt the ABs it would certainly fire me up as much as it does to them as it would be answering the challenge
if teams choose to turn away and not face it then thats just them being litle girls
also the oppostion crowd generally sing through the haka anyway to have there say (i always hear swing low sweet chariot when they play england)
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Anyone that calls a game "A Freindly" knowns no thing about rugby. These are test matches where 2 countrys best test each other.
The Maori culture is what makes Kiwi's different to Ozzies. All Kiwis known some Maori culture even if its just the Maori hand shake( rasing the eyes)
It is a challenge to bring your best game as we respect you and bring our best game.
At the end of the day its for the players not the fans. I'm sure that if you were playying the AB you would want to face the haka.
Nothing better than returning the challenge. It was great to see the england hooker front Norm.
I've also found 2 of these PI's that where stolen from Island rugby. They play second grade league in Christchurch.
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As you are all obviously realised the haka does give a psychological advantage pre kick off. But have any of you ever thought that this is the point. Sure its 'traditional' and its our 'culture' but the real reason to perform it is to give the All Blacks this edge. With a tactician such as Henry as the mastermind behind the All Blacks surely you rugby educated elite have thought of this. With the high level shown by at least some nations in modern day rugby any advantage you can get is crucial. And in response to those of you who feel people should receive as they please look at the two most recent people who disrespected it, Willie Mason and Brian O'Driscoll. I'm sure we all remember the first Lions tour, I know the Lions medical staff do at least, but the hit on Mason by David Kidwell after he mouthed off during the haka sent shivers through at least mine, and certainly his, spine.
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Surely, for the Haka to be a true reflection of NZ 'tradition', the white players would first need to force the maori contingent off the grass, move their sheep on to the vacated land, and then, after a lengthy period, invite their estranged compatriots back for a concilliatory dance and pretend they've been friends all along!
Tongue out of cheek now. Carry on the 'debate'...
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What is this obsession everone has of England morris dancing?
Surely there will be an old saxon war dance, and if there isn't invent one like the ABs did.
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If you're going to comment on the haka, you need to know a few things about it. Mainly, that its not done to intimidate the other team - its done to issue a challenge to them. i.e. its saying this is us, this is who we are, come and do you best against us in fair contest and we'll see who is the better team.
As for right of reply, go ahead. As far as we (Kiwi's) are concerned, you can reply in any manner you like, its up to you. As i said, its a challenge and you can accept it, face it, ignore it, reply in kind to it or what ever you want. we don't do it for you or the crowd or the TV - we do it for us.
Regarding our preciousness - rubbish! We don't care a jot what you think of the haka, but it does mean someting to us - so if the powers that be don't want us to do it, thats fine, we'll do it in private in the dressing room as per Cardif last year.
Finally the BOD tackle had nothing to do with his response to the haka, that was a media story based on nothing but speculation - it was an accident that happened in an aggressive physical game. Umanga pulled BOD's leg up unaware that Mealamu was doing the same thing. Its rugby people and sh*t happens - get over it already!
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should just leave them to do it. The All Blacks have been performing the Haka before the kick-off for over a century, contrary to the belief of some of the people who have commented. It was being performed at rugby games before the introduction of anthems. National anthems were only introduced after the Welsh team responded, followed by the crowd, to the Haka by singing 'Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau' in Wales' famous victory of 1905. It would be such a horrible shame to lose this wonderful tradition. At the end of the day international rugby is battle fought by modern day warriors who have the hopes of their nations riding on their shoulders. Long live the Haka.
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Crikey - 623 comments at the time of my posting.
Mate - I really don't know why you wasted your 6 quid writing down your view of the NZ haka.
It has always been a part of NZ rugby for my lifetime and I am mid 40.
Who are you to pass judgment on another country's tradition of how they do things.
You Poms, Scots and the rest of the Northern hemisphere teams should focus on the rugby rather than the haka and other pre-game ceremony performed by other southern hemisphere island countries. Think of it as providing two minutes entertainment for your punters that have paid big money to watch the rugby because you can bet your bottom dollar they don't get any value for their money when their beloved respective team plays anyone from downunder. Lets hope Tonga dismantle the Poms and the Italians do the same to the Scots - at least that will get rid of a fair amount of the whingers for another four years.
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The Haka should revert to the original "Kamate" format -that does have tradition. At the time of its performance, both teams should retreat beyond their 10-metre lines and remain there - thus eliminating the silly "yah-boo" element.
One thing that nobody seems to have mentioned is that the haka is a superb "warm-up" - every muscle-group is stretched and exercised while the opposition stand and shiver. Perhaps, if the haka is to be performed, the opposition should be permitted to keep their track-suits on until it is over.
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While we're on the subject of outdated traditions:
Separate English, Irish, Welsh and Scottish teams. Why?
Furthermore, aren't France, Italy and Portugal also all part of the EU. Is it time for a combined team?
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Wow! I'm surprised at the amount of interest in this particular subject. The haka has been part of NZ rugby longer than I've been on this earth (and I'm no young buck) and I guess I thought most people would be used to it even if they didn't like it. If some of you dislike the haka so much why don't you petition the IRB to have it stopped during the World Cup? Surely that would be a more constructive solution than flapping on about what an unfair advantage the AB's have.
As for the author of this blog saying that doing the haka gives the AB's a psychological edge. What would you know? Spoken to the AB's (both past and present), have you? Know much about NZ culture, do you? The last time I checked the AB's didn't need a psychological edge to beat most opposition teams. Even with the AB's having an off-day against Scotland over the weekend they still managed to come out victors and I can assure you it wasn't because of the haka. You had it right when you said your latest blog is unprofessional. One would assume you'd have better things to report on about the World Cup in general considering you're probably getting funded courtesy of the British tax payers.
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DH
Get over the whinging bit
I have just spent a year in NZ and found the Kiwis to be a great bunch of people but by god do THEY whinge.
ABs whinging that Twickenham was racist when the blatant racism in the Jade Stadium was a shock to even the hardiest football fan from the 70s!
Nz are much better at rugby at the moment - Northern Hemisphere rugby IS turgid but the Haka is a separate issue.
Even the local Press admit it is overdone - the Commonwealth games was a Haka-fest. It should be reserved for big rugby occassions only- the RWC IS one such occassion, but teams must have the right to ignore/face up or sing or do whatever back.
Take the criticism on the chin and don't play the whinging card. again....Beware of counting your chickens..1987 is a long time ago
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The opposition is always welcome to respond, if you looked outside your own backyard you would find that the other Pacific Island nations have their own challenge.
I'm disapointed that a tribal nations such as Scotland dosent' appreciate a challenge like the Haka, perhaps they have become sissified by the English whose only repsone to a Haka would be at best Morris dancing.
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I'm English, and was born in England. I lived in NZ for 5 years, & have NZ citizenship. I have spent the last 8 years living in Australia.
Yes, the Haka is a fantastic piece of historical culture, and emotional to watch.
However, it is extremely arrogant of the Kiwi's to assume that, when visiting other nations, they have the right to determine when they can perform their 'challenge', and not allow their host nations to respond.
I fully support the stance of the WRU. Last November, it would have been even better to have witnessed the Haka, followed by Cwm Rhondda (Bread of Heaven) at Millenium Stadium. Imagine listening to 50,000 Welsh male voices singing their unofficial anthem.
Each side should be able to respond in any way they see fit, especially if they are the host nation. Let's face it, an unresponded Haka gives NZ an advantage over their opposition, in terms of mental advantage. Let's bring back a level playing field.
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Most people on here appear to have an issue with the Haka because their team doesn't get to respond to it. I distinctly remember one game in 2001 I think when the English team led by Johnson responded to the Haka by looking each of the All Blacks in the eye while they performed it and then went on to beat them.
This has to be the best form of response. Personally as an English fan I always wish I was Irish on match days with the two anthems and rousing 'Ireland's Call'. Rugby is as much about culture, respect, flair and entertainment as it is about winning. That's what make it so different (and so much better) than any other sport. This is also one of the reasons that we are fortunate enough to go to a game and drink within the stadium while sitting next to fans of the opposition side.
The Haka should stay. It's part of rugby, and what makes the game great. All those that complain that there is no response are missing the point ever so slightly, the anthems and the Haka are an important part of international rugby and should maintain their place in our hearts as such. If the IRB were to ban it can you imagine how much we would all miss it?
Rant over. Apologies for the excessive length.
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Best way to overcome the 'haka' issue is to beat the ABs at rugby. I think it's great to watch (the old Kamate version at least), but it is even better when we see the ABs beaten on the field. Which does happen!
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I am fine with the original haka, or using another traditional haka but to have a new one written and choreographed it can longer be called a tradition.
And as DH said it's for the crowd so go out and do it for the crowd before the anthems.
And before the Kiwis get up and shout me down I am not a pom.
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I was at that match in '89 when Willie Anderson's Ireland met the Haka challenge. Legendary stuff but we still got a beating!
Its on YouTube, I'd recommend having a look.
Sadly the next time an Irishman met the challenge he almost had his career ended in a savage tackle. Really, if its a challenge then they should expect and possibly encourage a response.
Two such repsonses spring to mind.
David Campese's at the 91 semi final where he alone stayed by the posts kicking a ball to himself whilst the rest of his team faced it off. He promptly put the All Blacks to the sword almost single-handedly.
Second was another Aussie team recently who preformed a training drill that went on during and for a minute or two after the Haka performance. Took the sting out of it.
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I've got no problem with the haka what so ever. Its quality harmless entertainment.
However, I wish the opposing teams would occasionaly show a bit of character and initiative and not just stand gawping at it.
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I think Peter Flemming (218) must mean my letter (200) even though he got the number wrong!
Firstly you are right about the ABS doing the Haka in their changing room in Cardiff and not the tunnel as i had said.To be honest they could of done it in the toilets for all i care.
On the second point you are wrong in a way.They imposed a self ban on doing the Haka on the pitch. The WRU said they could do the Haka on the pitch but the Welsh wanted to respond. The ABS did not like that so as little children do they went and did it in their own room!
My question still remains. Why do the ABS not like a response to the Haka when their own history shows that there should be one.
As for the Haka being good for TV,it would make even better TV if there was a response - as has happened sometimes in the past!
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For anyone using the argument that you can not have a "New" traditional Haka, then I am afraid you are mistaken, my partner is a Maori and I have learnt that there are many different forms of haka used for many different reasons. You can not look at this as being that it is no longer the traditional one or that its a war dance that should not be on a sports field. The point should be that this challenge may (does) give the team an unfair advantage. Australia have come up with a comeback for the haka, during tri nation matches they respond by playing waltzing matilda, not sure if it has quite the same effect though!
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Tell you what "Andrew".When England is made to stop singing Swing Low Sweet Chariot,then Ill go along with getting rid of the haka.By the way,like everything else in life (with the exception of English rugby)evolution occurs.The haka has evolved into what is is today.Oh another point for the sour dour soothsayers of the haka here.Clearly you dont the meaning behind it.Like everything else that isnt English,you fail to grasp its meaning.Sour grapes here lads.Oh and Andrew if you dont like the haka.Diddums.Perhaps you could step outside you narrow perception for the 30 seconds or so that it takes to perform it to apreciate it for what it is.The Americans love it.They do their own college versions.Check it out on youtube.
The haka is here to stay as is Swing Low,as is all the Pacific war dances which is very important to these nations.Unfortunately,most posters here just cant grasp it.
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655 - Actually the WRU wanted the AB's to do the haka between the anthems (as was their right). The AB's thought that was a naf idea - i.e. sing the NZ anthem, do the haka, return to the line up, sing the Welsh anthem; so they declined (as was their right).
As I and others have said, the haka is done for the players, not for the crowd so the decided to do it in the changing rooms (as was their right).
There was nothing childish about it. The WRU said: "if you want to do the haka do it here in the program", the AB's said "no thanks". End of story.
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Quite a few comments on how the other team should be allowed to respond to the Haka. I don鈥檛 think NZ would a problem if another team wanted to do this as Tonga, Samoa & Fiji do. But it should be done in a gentleman, sportsman & respectful way not the way Campese did by kicking the ball to him self at the other end of the field or by blatantly turning your backs. This only aggravates some the AB鈥檚 at that particular moment. When Italy formed a circle when the AB鈥檚 performed the Haka most of the comments from the AB鈥檚 were that they weren鈥檛 bothered too much about it all. But I think it is disrespectful it only takes up a few minutes no big deal & all it ever does is cause conversations like this blog. There is no way NZ has anymore of an advantage from doing the Haka before the game than say, when the England fans start singing 'Swing Low, Sweet Chariot' when on attack in the second half when scores are locked!! Does that not get the England team a bit more fired up? Should we ban all singing at games? In my view it鈥檚 similar!! Would it be fair as in respectful, sportsmen like or gentleman like if another team started doing warm up drills during the other teams National Anthem? No I wouldn鈥檛 think so. There鈥檚 arguably not much difference!!
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This is part of extract of what was written by Tana Umag'a new book. The whole extract can been seen by clicking
The part I have selected as below is to do with the Lions 2005 Tour of NZ & the O'Driscoll - Haka saga, where O'Driscoll picked up some grass & throw it after the AB's had preformed the Haka & the (non) reaction from Tana. The same As I am sure with most of the AB's.
In the first extracts of Tana Umaga's autobiography - Up Close, published today - the former All Black captain recalls one of rugby's greatest controversies.
That tackle, O'Driscoll and me: by Tana Umaga
There was a lot of talk about the Lions' response to the haka. Someone had supposedly advised O'Driscoll to kneel down and pick a blade of grass, which he'd done, and we'd supposedly regarded that as disrespectful. The truth was we didn't care what they did. I noticed him doing it but just thought, oh, that's different. Opposition teams had tried a variety of responses and our attitude was always the same: whatever.
We didn't understand what he was doing so they were one up on us there, but it's rubbish to suggest that it had anything to do with what happened at that ruck. The media tends to provide interpretations of what they think has happened, as opposed to what actually did happen, and it's often all that speculation which creates the angst and inflames the situation
You should read the whole extract it is quite interesting, but I would of named this article鈥︹滲oys don鈥檛 cry鈥濃. I mean gee wiz what a bunch of cry babies O鈥橠riscoll & the rest of the lions team were!!
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Plainly we in England need our own version of New Zealand's ritual. It could be based on a wintry bronchial cough and called the Hacker...
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what about "Haka on ice" this would have the advanatge of combining the colononial NH heritage of the white NZ with the polynesian heritgae of the majopritu of the NZ team......and does anyone know what is maori for choke?
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Keep the Haka it's great for rugby.
I have one issue though with a lot of the posts defending the Haka.
There's been a lot of chat about the Haka being performed as a challenge and that it's a sign that the All Blacks respect the opposition. Given some of the anti-NH postings on here which seem to show no respect for the NH opposition, can I assume that the Haka will not be performed when the ABs play against NH teams?
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I think the Haka is fab - long may it continue, and it has been replied to/challenged many times in the past (who remembers the Irish walking straight up to them and ending up face to face) it's just that most rugby players these days have had the brains/balls to do such things trained out of them! Everything is just way too PC.
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First question: Have any of the people posting here played rugby, seriously, at a medium to high level, for any extended period of time?
I accept that there will be a few players, lots of "social" players, players who then became referees and those that just enjoy the 30 man/woman spectacle.
Second question: Does anyone here believe, you don't have to admit it, that rugby is a brutal, violent game in which controlled aggression is delivered in a physical manner?
This may seem a daft question but read on.
I'm an englishman and I've played rugby at a variety of levels and played some pretty high level teams in various cup competitions. The higher the standard of the opposition, the harder, more brutal the hits/contacts are. I'm also a firm believer of fighting fire with fire, therefore getting involved in some big hits gets me going. Same thing, for Nigel Redmond (Bath & England) who used to have someone beat him with a piece of 4 by 2 wood before a game so that when he went on the pitch he was in the right frame of mind.
So, to my point, if a modern day professional concedes psychological advantage due to the Haka, throat cutting or not, then they should not be in the game, send them home, take their boots and drag their name through the media.
It doesn't matter about tradition, it matters about sides losing to the AB's and then saying a tribal war dance before the game robbed them of victory.
The neutrals love it, genuine rugby fans love it and the world of Southern Hemisphere rugby would not be the same without it or any other Islanders ceremony.
If anyone wants to complain, it should be the All Blacks who are allowed to do so. They travel to Murreyfield to play Scotland at home in the France hosted world cup and a stadium of ignorant spectators boo, whistle and jeer throughout the Haka. Have some respect! Did the Haka have anything to do with the result of that match? I'll lay reasonable odds that lack of respect for the Haka has a fantastic effect on the All Blacks. I would be saying to the team, "To nil, don't let them score a single point". Good luck to ABs but if you can't beat them on the field, don't cry about losing psychological advantage over a dance. Try complaining about forward passes and the momentum rule. Teams lose more games due to the decisions than any Haka. This is a personal grip of mine and totaly off topic. The Ball must be passed backwards so that the catching player does so behind the point at which it was passed. Either that or start coaching Norther Hemisphere teams to pass forward. Of all the things to complain about in the greatest game in the world, choosing a ceremonial dance is small minded. Bear in mind that from next year, you'll be able to collapse rolling mauls legally. The end of quick ball from mauls is nigh! Stop ruining my game.
End of rant, Thanks.
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I can't beleive this blog is still going, and all the moaning and ignorant views of NZ and the haka's that the AB's choose to perform. Please do some research about NZ and what the haka means before pretending you understand and comment.
Also you may be interested in the link below to extracts from Tana's new book. Has his view of BOD's response to the haka that many people have misinterpreted above (not suprising given the level of ignorance previously mentioned). Also has an interesting description about the whole Tana/BOD tackle incident - surely the most laughable incident of moaning and crying the sport has ever seen (bad tackcle yes, but no intent and get over it). Quite forgot that Danny Grewcock was banned for biting in the same game - why wasn't that so ridiculously overly publicised?
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James is absolutely correct about the Haka. Let the Kiwis use the Haka to get themselves pumped up. The other teams need to find their own methods. But.....
When are the World Rugby authorities going to stop the All Blacks, in particular, pillaging the cream of the rugby talent from the South Sea Island countries? Especially when some of the players already hold full caps from their own country. This is one rule with which football holds the high ground, namely - once you have a full cap for any country, then that's the only one you can then play for, period.
Otherwise, great world cup, so far.
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I think the Haka is fab - long may it continue, and it has been replied to/challenged many times in the past (who remembers the Irish walking straight up to them and ending up face to face) it's just that most rugby players these days have had the brains/balls to do such things trained out of them! Everything is just way too PC.
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Um, who exept Kiwis like the haka? Oh yes, their B, C, D teams aka Fiji, Samoa, Tonga blah de blah. It's about time we stopped this crass nonsense - or as someone said, the English do the Morris dancing,etc, as long as we allow an extra 30 mins before the game. It's more important to say that the majority don't want it, don't need it but where are they in banning the damn thing. Laugh at them, however good they are. They may be the best team in the world but they know nothing about sportsmanship or any other ship for that matter. Their home ground are always full of spite and loathing for their compatriats, funny how they stick together when the haka appears...
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To kiwimark:
If all the Polynesian influence in the current squad goes back to post-war labour shortages, how come the current crop 'boasts' four players born in Samoa, two in Fiji and one in Tonga?
Everyone knows rugby scouts scour the islands for young talent and offer them scholarships to NZ rugby schools. Not only does this artificially skew the strength of the All Blacks, it also weakens the island nations.
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Who cares?
Never have I read so much rubbish by so many people on a matter of so little importance.
If the All Blacks want to do a war dance before the beginning of a game then let them...The last thing I need to see is a great, hairy Kiwi crying in his beer because someone wont let him jump-up-and-down and make silly noises.
I've had them do it in front of me. (The haka, not crying in their beer) and no, I didn't go weak at the knees or go running to my mother's side. I simply made polite enquiry as to the state of their truss and was they wearing it upside down.
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In reply to John Tunney - that is an easy one - they came to NZ with their families, generally aged below 5 years like Rodney Soiaolo and Mils M, when their families immigrated to NZ. Basic forces of immigration working in the world, just just it does over here in the UK with Asians, Carribeans etc. etc. (Monty Panesar, Linford Christie etc. etc. - are they British?).
Auckland is by far the largest Polynesian centre in the world, and immigration has been occuring for decades (Michael Jones and Frank Bunce both born in NZ) and will continue.
13 of the Somoa team were born in NZ!
Do some research about the forces of immigration working in the world, and also NZ society before claiming you know what you are talking about. Ignorance.
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"Why should we respect the Haka?" Because it is part of the indigenous culture of its country of origin. Sure, you could stand up to it, throw your blades of grass, disrupt it in any way you care to, but isn't that tantamount to shouting drinking songs over the national anthem? These postings saying 'why should we respect it' sound like colonial arrogance to anyone from NZ or the Islands. And anyone who has watched a Tonga or Samoan clash with the ABs will know that there are traditional ways to face and challenge the Haka anyway. Also, the fact that the current AB's have written their own Haka does not negate tradition - it is within the tradition that individual groups formulate their own Haka. As for the AB's getting 'offended' - well, offense is the right of everyone, and more fuel to them.
In a word, world, get over it. Your attitudes show your ignorance. The game would be a lot poorer without the Haka, and without the All Blacks. Perhaps if Northern Hemisphere rugby put more thought into technique than you seem to on the customs of other cultures, then you might play better rugby.
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671 comments! Thats a few.. I bet nearly all are anti-haka.
As Mr 671 said, nobody wants to see a hairy kiwi cry. I don't think it should be banned but if the opposing team don't want to watch it then they certainly shouldn't have too!!
I do recall some of the old England players walking right up to them looking down the kiwis throats while they dance. Thats what i'm talking about.
If there has to be a rule.. get right up there!!
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Personally I find the Haka very boorish and unimpressive. If someone did the Haka to me I'd just say, 'When do you get to the intimidating part?' That's how I feel when the All Blacks try to Haka my team, the Wallabies.
Then again I know a lot of people, even many who aren't All Blacks fans who love the Haka. So I guess my lack of appreciation of the Haka doesn't matter - which is fine.
I just wonder though if the Haka hasn't been a factor in the All Blacks' inability to win critical matches. Mike Tyson was taught by his trainer Cus D'Amato that intimidation can easily be turned back on a tough acting opponent. The Haka is a ritual of intimidation. When an opposing side laughs it off - the All Blacks have to acknowledge a defeat before kick off. That's no way for the All Blacks to feel before they start a game. They take defeat harder, indulging in more self crucifixion than any other team, possibly in any sport.
Best of luck to all nations in the WC - and for each game may victory go to the best team that day.
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Surely the key reason for the Haka is to ensure the ABs are still warmed up, whilst their opponents have had to stand still for it and two anthems.
Cold muscles don't work as well as warm ones, giving the ABs the edge in the first few (critical) moments of the game.
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Is it true that NZ'ers are incapable of seeing a wind up when it is right in front of them - I think we should be told (along with what is the Maori word for choke)........
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post 667, can you please enlighten us to which players have Full Caps for other nations. and when and where, as Im sure the IRB would like to know as after their Rule change back a few years ago, once you play for 1 country you can't Play for another. Be interesting if you can prove it. As it would prove that the IRB aren't doing there job's.
Well all look forward to your reply. But we wont hold our Breath
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DONT YOU PEOPLE GET IT ?
YOU DO GET A CHANCE TO RESPOND TO THE HAKA EVERY TIME IN THE 80 MINUTES YOU PLAY IN THE MATCH AGAINST THE ALL BLACKS . THEY ARE THROWING DOWN A CHALLENGE TO YOU AND YOU RESPOND IN THE WAY YOU PLAY THE MATCH AGAINST THEM .
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the reason the ABs are successful is becuase they play the best rugby in the world.
Of course the Haka is intimidating but that's what it's used for....opposition teams do find it intimidating but it isn't the only reason why they are the best team in the world.
What would be the case if Samoa, Fiji & Tonga were world beaters...would you want to ban their hakas? But that isn't the case so what's so different from their hakas to NZ's haka.
It's just another lame excuse from the 91热爆 Nations to explain why they are miles behind the world beaters of international rugby.
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657 i agree with you that most posters here are just sour that it might be unfair advantage, though i see you have missed the point to why this blog has evolved into, and that is why do the ABs complain when someone responds to the traditional challenage? that is why we view it childish or dare i say it arrogance.
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all this blog has achieved is an excuse to slag off the all balcks. sorry but they are more than likely going to hammer all teams around for the next few years so the pettiness about tha haka should really stop. what is the big deal? it's the team that wins matches not the haka. grow up and get over it and stop calling it a dance or a show. it's a cultural tradition and who cares if a team doenst know how to react to it. i cant believe that this blog is talking about the haka as a form of intimidation when the nz team do that by their style of play. as for the whinging scots here, well it ye hadnt rolled out a 2nd string team last weekend maybe scotland wouldnt have been so intimidated. excuses excuses.
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DONT YOU PEOPLE GET IT ?
YOU DO GET A CHANCE TO RESPOND TO THE HAKA EVERY TIME IN THE 80 MINUTES YOU PLAY IN THE MATCH AGAINST THE ALL BLACKS . THEY ARE THROWING DOWN A CHALLENGE TO YOU AND YOU RESPOND IN THE WAY YOU PLAY THE MATCH AGAINST THEM .
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The performance of an AB haka (whatever one is used) is as traditional as crowd singing (1905 tour and the Welsh response).
It is traditional that the anthems come before the haka - with only one known exception (a Welsh centennial -on an agreement that this was a one off exception to the tradition, which the Welsh then "welshed" on).
IMO, the general circumstance of the haka is that both sides stay on their side of the pitch during it. How close they want to eyeball and what they do during it, or formations they stand in, being up to them.
As to the Lions captain of Ireland BD - the idea that what happened to him was because of what he did during the haka is fanciful myth and nonsense.
A tradition (not limited to rugby) in rugby is the representation of Scotland and Wales in international sport, even though they are not nations of the UN. One unique to rugby is the inclusion of Ulster in the Irish team. These are part and parcel of the cultural traditions that the peoples themselves bring to the game between nations. No more and no less than the haka in our bi-cultural New Zealand. Attempting to provoke us and then calling us precious, is of that side of nationalism which needs to seek an enemy to be. It's part of mean-spirited tribalism one had hoped was part of the yesteryear of football hooligans rather than a World Cup event. The event, in France at least, has been about the best of the sport don't bring it down to the lower level of us and them pettiness.
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rod 675- boorish and unimpressive? would have thought that described all the people on here complaining about the haka! it's so obviously jealousy here. it's just laughable. if a team was good enough to beat the all blacks, then the haka wouldnt stop them!
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If you want something to complain about that is actually worth the time of day, how about the games being played in Cardiff and Scotland. The most successful World Cups to date have been those held solely in the single host nation. The 1999 tournament was a shambles, but the 1995 and 2003 tournaments far more successful. Given the tight timeframes between games (especially for the smaller, poorer teams such as Romania) additional travel only makes it harder for them. How can the game progress in these nations when they are being beaten by bigger margins than perhaps they should, and the travel factor is truly an influence on performance. Sure, France to Scotland/Wales is not a long flight, but given airports, security, an entire squad of players/management, it is easily a half day exercise.
And a quarter final where it is likely to have the host nation playing the pre-tournament favourites, being held in.... Cardiff. A great stadium and rugby people perhaps, but the neutral venue sure takes a lot of gloss off of what could be a great game.
So I say leave the haka alone, it is only a minute long, and let's focus on the REAL issues of rugby.
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The Islanders do their cimibi, sivi tau, etc at the same as the ABs do the haka. Feel free to sing over top of the haka if you like, just don't boo - that's just crass and pathetic.
A good smokescreen to hide the NH team's collective impotence so far at this RWC though. A suggested response to the haka for British teams? how about fielding your best players and trying to win the game?
Remember the game in Wales where they did it in the shed before the match? Plenty of booing when they didn't perform it on the field. But this would be from people who think it should be banned too, of course.
The sheer ignorance of posters on here is just mind-boggling. I'm sure most of you are just the 4-yearly bandwagon riders that probably didn't even start watching rugby until England won the Cup. Try and learn a bit about our game first before you humiliate yourselves with such uneducated rants. If you really think that the many days preparation and training can all be undone by standing around for 3 minutes to face a haka then you're following the wrong game. And if it puts the players in such a bad state of mind they can't perform in the next 80 minutes then they're playing the wrong game.
Of course, it's wise of you all to throw up the "poaching" debate yet again too. Shows how you don't like to let reality get in the way of your little dreamworld.
Read the bios of these "stolen" Islanders in the AB teams and see when and why they moved to NZ. The NZRU must have superb scientists to tell how good Rokocoko was going to be and offer him a scholarship at 6 years old!!!!
Should NZ insist the 13 NZ born players in the Samoan side are returned? Along with the 10-12 other kiwis in other teams (including England, Wales and Ireland).
Should Namibia be given their Springboks back (Percy Montgomery being the first to spring to mind)? And all the Zimbabweans they've taken over the years?
Or maybe the best way would be for all the Islanders to be realeased from their European clubs to play for their countries in between world cups so they could develop as a squad.
But then, you might end up with the embarassing result of Tonga knocking someone out of the RWC in the pool stages. Someone like, say, England?
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Post 678
The three matches that the Pacific Islanders Rugby team played against NZ, Australia and SOth Africa in 2004 were all granted full test match status by the International Rugby board. Two of the current NZ All Blacks players played in thsoe marches for the Pacifica Islanders. Sivivatu scored two tries against NZ and two against SOuth Africa; and Lauaki scosred a try against each of the three teams.
Full test status should mean you can't then play for another team - QED
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You know.. The Haka is tradition, its even on my space's home page. In saying that, if the other team doesn't like it..they dont have to stand there and watch it. It's like saying that you can't have cheerleaders or mascots for other types of games.. come on people, really now. Just think.. when you start to censore the little things.. where will it end? Like it or Hate it.. you don't have to watch it, go to the bathroom, turn the channel or just enjoy the way it pumps up the crowd.
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The Islanders do their cimibi, sivi tau, etc at the same as the ABs do the haka. Feel free to sing over top of the haka if you like, just don't boo - that's just crass and pathetic.
A good smokescreen to hide the NH team's collective impotence so far at this RWC though. A suggested response to the haka for British teams? how about fielding your best players and trying to win the game?
Remember the game in Wales where they did it in the shed before the match? Plenty of booing when they didn't perform it on the field. But this would be from people who think it should be banned too, of course.
The sheer ignorance of posters on here is just mind-boggling. I'm sure most of you are just the 4-yearly bandwagon riders that probably didn't even start watching rugby until England won the Cup. Try and learn a bit about our game first before you humiliate yourselves with such uneducated rants. If you really think that the many days preparation and training can all be undone by standing around for 3 minutes to face a haka then you're following the wrong game. And if it puts the players in such a bad state of mind they can't perform in the next 80 minutes then they're playing the wrong game.
Of course, it's wise of you all to throw up the "poaching" debate yet again too. Shows how you don't like to let reality get in the way of your little dreamworld.
Read the bios of these "stolen" Islanders in the AB teams and see when and why they moved to NZ. The NZRU must have superb scientists to tell how good Rokocoko was going to be and offer him a scholarship at 6 years old!!!!
Should NZ insist the 13 NZ born players in the Samoan side are returned? Along with the 10-12 other kiwis in other teams (including England, Wales and Ireland).
Should Namibia be given their Springboks back (Percy Montgomery being the first to spring to mind)? And all the Zimbabweans they've taken over the years?
Or maybe the best way would be for all the Islanders to be realeased from their European clubs to play for their countries in between world cups so they could develop as a squad.
But then, you might end up with the embarassing result of Tonga knocking someone out of the RWC in the pool stages. Someone like, say, England?
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The ethnicity comments are too ludicrous for comment. Have the English folk checked the make up of their sports teams recently? Or english cricketers have always worn turbans?
As a kiwi i think we have become toooo precious about other teams having to respect the haka. I cant imagine Mr Collins giving a toss what the opposition do. But an unfair advantage? How? If a ceremonial dance scares the opposition forwards they can always close their eyes and imagine they are in happy place (-: !Get real.
And, If we have to choose between the haka or the Anthem? Better the haka than the agony of our awful anthem. IF you had our anthem, you would have come up with an alternative too.
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The Islanders do their cimibi, sivi tau, etc at the same as the ABs do the haka. Feel free to sing over top of the haka if you like, just don't boo - that's just crass and pathetic.
A good smokescreen to hide the NH team's collective impotence so far at this RWC though. A suggested response to the haka for British teams? how about fielding your best players and trying to win the game?
Remember the game in Wales where they did it in the shed before the match? Plenty of booing when they didn't perform it on the field. But this would be from people who think it should be banned too, of course.
The sheer ignorance of posters on here is just mind-boggling. I'm sure most of you are just the 4-yearly bandwagon riders that probably didn't even start watching rugby until England won the Cup. Try and learn a bit about our game first before you humiliate yourselves with such uneducated rants. If you really think that the many days preparation and training can all be undone by standing around for 3 minutes to face a haka then you're following the wrong game. And if it puts the players in such a bad state of mind they can't perform in the next 80 minutes then they're playing the wrong game.
Of course, it's wise of you all to throw up the "poaching" debate yet again too. Shows how you don't like to let reality get in the way of your little dreamworld.
Read the bios of these "stolen" Islanders in the AB teams and see when and why they moved to NZ. The NZRU must have superb scientists to tell how good Rokocoko was going to be and offer him a scholarship at 6 years old!!!!
Should NZ insist the 13 NZ born players in the Samoan side are returned? Along with the 10-12 other kiwis in other teams (including England, Wales and Ireland).
Should Namibia be given their Springboks back (Percy Montgomery being the first to spring to mind)? And all the Zimbabweans they've taken over the years?
Or maybe the best way would be for all the Islanders to be realeased from their European clubs to play for their countries in between world cups so they could develop as a squad.
But then, you might end up with the embarassing result of Tonga knocking someone out of the RWC in the pool stages. Someone like, say, England?
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The Haka before the Scotland game was exceptionally choreographed, each player totally in step. It's a shame, from a neutral who loves to see them play, that they hadn't spent the same effort and time on perfecting their passing and ball handling skills instead or to popping down to the local sports shop to get 22 white, yellow,green, red, pink etc shirts.
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I think post 676 has maybe nailed it. Perhaps if we'd replied with an Eightsome Reel, our players would have been properly warmed-up for the beginning of the game and we might only have lost 32-0.
If the All Blacks are so hung-up on the traditions of the Haka, why does it change occasionally and why don't the South Sea Islanders they rely so heavily on still get the chance to perform the challenge from their homeland?
I sort of like it in a away, but my enthusiasm was eroded when the Kiwis started performing it on the touchline during a match. That's just taking the p*ss.
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The Islanders do their cimibi, sivi tau, etc at the same as the ABs do the haka. Feel free to sing over top of the haka if you like, just don't boo - that's just crass and pathetic.
A good smokescreen to hide the NH team's collective impotence so far at this RWC though. A suggested response to the haka for British teams? how about fielding your best players and trying to win the game?
Remember the game in Wales where they did it in the shed before the match? Plenty of booing when they didn't perform it on the field. But this would be from people who think it should be banned too, of course.
The sheer ignorance of posters on here is just mind-boggling. I'm sure most of you are just the 4-yearly bandwagon riders that probably didn't even start watching rugby until England won the Cup. Try and learn a bit about our game first before you humiliate yourselves with such uneducated rants. If you really think that the many days preparation and training can all be undone by standing around for 3 minutes to face a haka then you're following the wrong game. And if it puts the players in such a bad state of mind they can't perform in the next 80 minutes then they're playing the wrong game.
Of course, it's wise of you all to throw up the "poaching" debate yet again too. Shows how you don't like to let reality get in the way of your little dreamworld.
Read the bios of these "stolen" Islanders in the AB teams and see when and why they moved to NZ. The NZRU must have superb scientists to tell how good Rokocoko was going to be and offer him a scholarship at 6 years old!!!!
Should NZ insist the 13 NZ born players in the Samoan side are returned? Along with the 10-12 other kiwis in other teams (including England, Wales and Ireland).
Should Namibia be given their Springboks back (Percy Montgomery being the first to spring to mind)? And all the Zimbabweans they've taken over the years?
Or maybe the best way would be for all the Islanders to be realeased from their European clubs to play for their countries in between world cups so they could develop as a squad.
But then, you might end up with the embarassing result of Tonga knocking someone out of the RWC in the pool stages. Someone like, say, England?
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Wouldn't it be interesting if the opposing team were to encircle the ABs as they performed the haka? Nothing too provocative, but a sufficient hint of menance to put them off their stride? Well, maybe for the first 5 minutes of the game!
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I think the point that is being missed here when talking about traditions is that, unlike a Scotsman lifting his kilt, the haka has a great history within the CONTEXT of the sport of rugby. It has been a part of All Black games for years.
To get rid of this tradition would be such a major step backwards and yet another horrid step in the sanitisation of sports today.
I also don't buy into this "The haka gives an unfair advantage" view - the haka certainly hasn't stopped teams (France, Australia, South Africa) beating the All Blacks at past world cups. If your team is going getted psyched out from the word go just by seeing a haka then they don't stand much of a chance of handling the mental challenge over the next 80 minutes anyway (not to mention the physical challenge then get to try and tackle Jerry Collins :-) )
Get real.
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I reckon the Samoans look the part when they do it, the lack of Maoris does take the edge off the AB's haka.
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post 678
i think joeli vidiri has played for both fiji and nz. Not sure whether Steve Devine played for the full australia side or only u21 but he had played representative rugby.
That said No-one can claim the higher ground here, the home unions have all been as guilty of taking talent from overseas (eg the Kilted Kiwis).
Frankly the RU rules here are a farce
how can several AB's then play for other nations (Jamie Joseph, Tuigamala to name but 2).
As regards the haka, i think this should be "our house our rules" ie when teams tour nz by all means do it. where they are on tour it should be the option of the home nation to choose to permit it. I expect most would agree to it as a spectacle for the fans. Personally i dont care much for it happening every game and the argument that it is tradition is very poor justification. Never mind the roots of the haka, if we clung on to all traditions around rugby from when it was invented then it would be a game unrecogniseable to most of us.
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I enjoy seeing the haka but agree that it should not be done at NZ's beck and call. If NZ are playing away they should be told when the home nation would like it, whether before or after anthems. I lost all respect for its 'tradition' and 'culture' when Henry & the team did the haka in Cardiff behind closed doors because they had been so insulted by not having it right before kick off. If it is so sacred, why does it form the main part of an advertising campaign for Iveco trucks on TV? Sold out methinks...
As for psychological advantage I can't see any real advantage, you should be relatively tough as a pro rugby player. As the opposing team just take the time to remove tracksuits etc (as Woodward said to Eng on one of the DVDs I've seen), run around a bit and then get ready for kick off on your own terms!
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Amazing how a dance can cause such outrage. Maybe the ABs should not preform it like at Cardiff last yr - oh the fuss that caused. Really they cannot win if they preform it or not, but the fuss it causes is interesting and rather sad . I have never heard a former player complain about it - just supporters????....
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Maybe each of the All Blacks should all do their own "traditional" dance. The Maoris can do the Haka, the Samoans, Fijians and Tongans can all do their own traditional dances at the same time.
That would make it interesting.
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post 678
i think joeli vidiri has played for both fiji and nz. Not sure whether Steve Devine played for the full australia side or only u21 but he had played representative rugby.
That said No-one can claim the higher ground here, the home unions have all been as guilty of taking talent from overseas (eg the Kilted Kiwis).
Frankly the RU rules here are a farce
how can several AB's then play for other nations (Jamie Joseph, Tuigamala to name but 2).
As regards the haka, i think this should be "our house our rules" ie when teams tour nz by all means do it. where they are on tour it should be the option of the home nation to choose to permit it. I expect most would agree to it as a spectacle for the fans. Personally i dont care much for it happening every game and the argument that it is tradition is very poor justification. Never mind the roots of the haka, if we clung on to all traditions around rugby from when it was invented then it would be a game unrecogniseable to most of us.
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i completely diasgree with the haka .. ok if the all blacks want to do it ( and other countries also do their version ) then they can , but why should the oppisition have to stand there watchin and listening as the all blacks are screaming and shouting etc , if i was a captain of an opposing team i wouldnt stand and watch it gwettin cold or whatever , i would take my men away possibly for a quick jog around our half of the pitch , or maybe into a huddle for last minute teamtalk. the haka clearly gies a physclogical edge pumping up the all balcks whilst the other team stands still and silent.
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Yes the IRB gave full test match status to those games,Can you please tell me which Nation the Pacific Island team is from?? it was 3 Nations that came together so you could say a bit like the Lions. You will also know that quite a few of the Island players didn't want to play for the team as it would have ruled them out of playing for Countries that they wanted to play for Australia and NZ and in the case you have said Sitiveni Sivivatu who had been playing rugby in NZ since he was about 15 and wanted to play for tne NZ team
So the IRB said ok full test status but it wont effect your rights to play for another country.
Which is their right to play for any country they Choose, if they satisfy the qualifications set out by the IRB, then players can play for any country they want to.
Henry Paul played for England even tho he played International sport for another country or what about Mark Van Gisbergen, Van Gisbergen鈥檚 father is Dutch born whilst his mother is from New Zealand, meaning that the player holds both New Zealand and Dutch passports. Van Gisbergen qualified to play for England on residency grounds.
Remember player have the right to play for who they want to. You and I cant say who they Can or Cant Play for
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KJY,
why wasn't grewcock's biting publicised the same way?
probably because he was caught and banned. justifiably.
the guy is a maniac and had no place on that field. I don't know why he was even on the tour.
anyway, Umanga and Mealanu knew exactly what they were doing. they got away with deliberately spear tackling the Lions captain and then denied any wrong doing. it really baffles me how New Zealanders, whom in a rugby context I admire immensely, can seriously say it was fair enough.
it blatently was not.
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Why is it that every discussion about the all blacks, involving English rugby supporters, will inevitably result in a the ignorant and some might say racist, oppinion that the All Black team is full of stars poached from the Pacific Is.
Unfortunately this view is fueled by certain, equally ignorant, English journalists. the fact is, if you have actually been to NZ, the country, especially Auckland, is very multicultural and the fact that the team comprises of many players of PI anscestry is not at all surprising. Growing up in NZ it is quite obvious that the PI boys are bigger, stronger, faster and generally better at rugby...
How can anyone think it is ok to discuss whether one race of people are NZers and another is not?
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Why is Andrew Cotter's blog on the Haka so brilliant ? Because it managed to secure almost seven hundred responses in two days. Provocative enough to get right up the nostrils of many AB rugby supporters. For that alone, the blog derserves praise. In a sense, the blog mimics the Haka in terms of its sheer provocativeness.
As regards Tama Umanga's explanation of the O'Driscoll spear tackle: "What I didn't realise was that Kevin Mealamu had grabbed his other leg on the other side of the ruck to unbalance him." Yes, Tama, just one of those amazing coincidences that the two players grabbed both of O'Driscoll's legs at the exact same moment. Of course Mealamu is so dwarf-like in stature (almost like one of Peter Jackson's hobbits), there is no way you could have spotted him beforehand Tama. Apparently, the pigs they fly very high in New Zealand.
As regards Angry Maori's comment about disrespecting the Haka, we now know (from the various book extracts quoted above) that this is possibly irrelevant. And that Umanga and Mealamu simply wanted to take O'Driscoll out of the AB/Lions series before it had scarcely begun.
As regards the somewhat strange comments by Mike to the effect that O'Driscoll and the Lions were whingers and that "sh*t happens" on the rugby field, this fails to take account of the fact that spear tackles can leave someone in a wheelchair for life. All we can hope, I suppose, it that both Mealmu and Umanga now realise that their joint tackle on O'Driscoll was a bad idea (in health and safety terms) and that they should not engage in such spear tackles again.
Admittedly,the tackle was successful insofar as it removed an iconic player from the series at an early stage. But - although the All Blacks may see this as a justifiable tactic - the sheer danger inherent in the manouevre should make it an absolute no-no in the future.
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I have always found that the best way of shutting up drunken kiwis who insist on performing a haka in a bar is to sing along with "Humpty Dumpty". It's possibly the popularity of this sing-along which has led to the new haka.
Could I encourage some of the readers here to come up with a different set of words to the new haka? My suggestion; "I'm a little tea-pot" - it seems to match the movements quite well.
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I'm reading this thread with amusement. I'm a Kiwi living in Scotland. I love the Haka. But it doesn't follow that it gives a psychological advantage.
As a schoolboy player my team faced the when playing a local Maori school. Their team was better than ours.
We were profoundly effected by the Haka but were stirred to go on and win the game.
Keep the Haka. As a player it has given me life long rugby memories and increased my love for the game.
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Ah, I see, this has been the secret to the All Black's success in rugby all these years. Why did we not realise this before and have it banned years ago?
Honestly, what a pile of drivel. I'm not an All Blacks supporter, and have no connections with New Zealand at all. But the haka is great theatre and makes not one jot of difference to the game outcome.
It would be a great shame if it was disallowed, and the only person I've heard making any strong voice on this in the past is Stephen Jones in the Sunday Times - but he seems to hate the All Blacks anyway, so I think there is some other agenda at play in his case.
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I have always found that the best way to shut annoying Kiwis up when they are doing a drunken haka in a bar is to sing along with "Humpty Dumpty". Maybe the reason for changing to the new Haka is because the alternative words were catching on too well?
Maybe this forum would be a good one to find some words to match the new dance? Maybe the classic "I'm a little tea-pot"?
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You lot make me laugh. Most of the comments on here are written in terrible English.
I have two questions.
1: If the HAKA is a tradition, why do the NZ Cricket team not do the HAKA?
2: Why do NZ pick the best Pacific Island players and call themselves NZ? They should play under the banner of South Pacific. They steal the best players and still have not won the RWC for 20 years.
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I've been reading this thread with great interest. I am a Kiwi living in Scotland and I love the Haka.
But it does not follow that it gives a psychological advantage.
As a schoolboy player my team played a local Maori school ranked higher than us. They performed a Haka before the game and we were profoundly affected. We were stirred to go on and win the game as we responded to the challenge with brave, intellegent play.
Keep the Haka. Win lose or draw the players love to face it. It gives us life long memories of rugby. Our game is more than just a sport but a lifestyle and culture as well.
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This all sounds like a bunch of whinging. No one would care about the Haka if they could consistently beat the ABs, which most haven't for the last 100yrs.
I cannot see that the Haka is the reason for other teams losing which is the real question here ... to do or not to do the Haka is just a red herring.
Stop the Haka and it is a moral victory for your side but it will not stop the defeat of your side on the play field of play. And that is all that really matters here.
Why does it seem that most of the complaints about the Haka is from the Northern Hemisphere sides and fans? Or maybe I just have not noticed the SH sides and fans objecting if that be the case.
Dr. Bubba
USA
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Why is it that every discussion about the all blacks, involving English rugby supporters, will inevitably result in a the ignorant and some might say racist, oppinion that the All Black team is full of stars poached from the Pacific Is.
Unfortunately this view is fueled by certain, equally ignorant, English journalists. the fact is, if you have actually been to NZ, the country, especially Auckland, is very multicultural and the fact that the team comprises of many players of PI anscestry is not at all surprising. Growing up in NZ it is quite obvious that the PI boys are bigger, stronger, faster and generally better at rugby...
How can anyone think it is ok to discuss whether one race of people are NZers and another is not?
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Totally agree with your sentiments concerning the "new" traditional haka. If you have to do one, do the one everyone expects to see. A point you didn't make was that, frankly, white men look rather stupid doing it (we can't dance either !) which was well demonstrated before the Scotland game. Perhaps the real Maori looking guys would be ok if there was a whole team of them but to get that they'd have to go back to playing for Tonga/Fiji/Samoa or the other islands where they were actually born and previously played for.
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Carryiny on from my first (anonymous) email some 500+ back - this has obviously hit a few hot buttons. However, not one of the 400 or so posts I read actually made the only valid point:
Rugby is a professional sport, i.e. it competes for whatever entertainment dollars one has to spend. Therefore the most valid measure of whether the haka should be continued or dropped is whether it adds to or subtracts from the baseline total of dollars spent on rugby. I think that there can be no doubt that the haka - and the ABs - have had a profoundly positive effect on the rugby dollars spend (this is a commercial thread, so I will use a commercial currency, albeit an ever more puny one; side note as a Canuck living in SoCal, I have watched the $CDN approach parity with ill-concealed delight). So the haka stays, the economy demands it.
On a personal level, I managed to convince my company to move some meetings from Manila to Europe after a particularly brutal experience three of us had at Manila airport in early August (advice: if you have the chance to never go through Manila airport - take it). Anyway I leave for Scandinavia Sunday and will head off, at my own expense, for Cardiff on the 6th where I will convert however many of my puny greenbacks into pounds as required to get a ticket to the ABs vs, I suspect, France. And if the ABs get to the finals, I will tag on an extra couple of days to my trip and repeat with Euros in Paris. And if they don't do the haka, that will be money somehow less well spent.
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it's just ridiculous. to ban the haka will do nothing to stop the all blacks from hammering all their opposition. what si with the whole psychological impact? all ill say is thank god none of the bloggers who say the haka is intimidating are rugby players as their mentaility would suck and they's fall at every hurdle. if other teams are over awed by the haka and lose to nz then it's their own weakness and not any haka influence that has caused it. why dont rugby teams take responsibility for losses themselves rather than try and blame it on different circumstances such as the haka. sorry but even if scotland had playeed their first team last weekend, they'd still have lost to nz. actually on second thoughts, ban the haka and then when nz beat everyone, then maybe people won't have any excuses. as for the spear tackle on driscoll, i'm irish and was horrified to see it and umaga and melamu were completely in the wrong but what did it have to do with the haka?
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I think the Haka is great, but I do not like it whenthey change parts of it. The one this team are performing hardly resembles the traditional Haka, so it must have lost its spiritual meaning.
If another nation wants to respond to the Haka, I don't think it can be done with the national anthems, as they should be played before the Haka. But there is nothing to stop the crowd responding with a version of a national song, Bread of heaven for example. If the All blacks are playing an away game, then the home union can organise a response if they so wish. NZ are a great team, but they are not bigger than the game.
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Post 708
The Pacific Islanders are made up from players from Tonga, Fiji and Samoan islands only.
Those players who played a test match for the Pacific Islanders team shouldn't have been permitted to then play for any other country at test match level - indeed, as you say, some of the Island players chose to make that decision. Likewise NZ players then playing for others.
Can't think of a player, though, who has played for the Lions and then played a test match against one of the four 91热爆 nations for an international team outwith Eng, Wales, Scot & Ire.
I'm Irish, and the only foreign, capped player I can remember playing for Ireland in recent years was an Aussie outhalf (name?....) in the late eighties or early nineties. I didn't agree with it then, either.
If a player meets the rules regarding elegibility to play for any national rugby union team in a test match, then fine (presumably the rules must be IRB rules - if not, they should be). He can move to any country, meet the requirements and play for that country, if picked. He makes his own choice.
However, no player should be allowed to gain a full, test match status, international rugby union cap for more than one country. Unfortunately, the list of such players across the entire rugby union world is long.
IRB - Time for a change and then there won't be any more reason for any moaning.
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If in doubt.. blame the English.
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go on youtube and search for 'haka vs tongan wardance'
then come back here and try and tell us how you can't enjoy something as good as that =]
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If somebody doesnt tell me what the Maori word for choker is Im gonna stop asking......And the Haka is girly twaddle. If you ask any deaf person the hand signals actually state;
"Im a big girl from the Islands - The NZ team are chokers - "I cant believe we are stood here dancing like lemons - Wish I was wearing a Fiji/Samoa/Tonga shirt" (Repeat to fade)
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Look, morons: this whole thing is just a gutter-press beat-up. Shame the 91热爆 has to stoop to that level, but who's surprised? Anything to curry the common man.
And boy, how common are they! Racism simply oozes out of half the comments here.
But the point is, IF Brit journos actually provided a balanced factual and informed view - and this column is neither - then you wouldn't have such a mass outpouring of ignorance. Ie, people regurgitating what they've (falsely) been told.
Then you wouldn't look so much like a nation of fools.
ps: with ref to earlier post and comments therefrom: "pom" in my venacular means "ignorant Brit with imperial presumptions" - you don't have to be english as such to fit the bill.
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To all those winging British who, every time they get beaten by the New Zealand Rugby Team pull out the same old drivel about the BOD tackle on the Lions Tour. 2 points for you:
1) In 2003 the same player was awarded a trophy by the Welsh Rugby Union after taking care of Colin Charvis on the rugby field after he had been knocked out, making sure that he hadn't swallowed his gumshield and getting him into the recovery position. This isn't the action of a person who would deliberatly take out another player with the intention of hurting him. IT WAS AN ACCIDENT. It happems. Get over it.
2) That tour is recorded as a 3-0 white wash by New Zealand over the Lions and that will never change no matter how loudly you cry over it.
So please stop being so pathetic and get on with your lives.
Oh and on topic, Haka before or after Anthems don't really care but please make them National Anthems. Flower of Scotland isn't even recognised as a National Anthem by the Scottish Parliment! It's God Save the Queen or nothing please.
And poster #725. I did and you are right. With a little luck against England and a huge upset against Australia we might get to see it again this year too. :-)
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the haka should absolutely remain a part of rugby as should other traditional pacific dances. watching south africa play samoa ( a very hard fought match ) i was pleased to see boks players clapping the samoans for their efforts after the dance. it s a great part of the game. i remember hearing on commentry of the six nations that ireland should not have two anthems at our home games, and why not exactly? it all plays a part for both players and fans. in terms of response again the boks were right to line up arm in arm to face the dance as a united team, walking up to face them or turning your back is unbecoming of professional sportsmen.
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Should the non-maori players be allowed to do the Haka?, IT IS NOT their heritage or culture and quite frankly it's pretencious.
Its the same as the USA eagles doing the Native Indian Rain Dance before a game.
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Don't you think that if it were a "spear tackle" then the Independent citing officer/Panel would have said so and banned the 2 involved??? I think that he/they are more qualified to adjudicate on such issues then.
End of the day its the Haka and "poaching "is just more moaning by ignorant,uneducated people that claim to know something they clearly know nothing about. Why Should we respect another countrys Culture. Because we should, but here in Britian we have a problem in doing that. Oh its different to us, Not good. Learn other peoples history /Culture.......Not impose ours on others.
Keep the Haka, its good to see a country proud of who they are and where they are from. I love the Samoan Tongan and Fiji "Haka" and if South Africa want to do their own one Fantastic. Lets not become some sterile world.
If you don't like it fine just don't disrespect another countrys culture. Or are we here in the UK becoming like a certin country across the pond. Its our way or no way
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You only had to be at the Murrayfield ground on Sunday to hear the reaction from the 60 odd thousand spectators as to what the haka meant to the people who had come to watch. They went nuts over it! A quote from the scottish lady sitting next to me in the stands "I have been waiting a very long time to see this" as the AB's prepared to carry out the haka. I don't have a problem if teams want to face it in their own way, but don't take it away as a spectacle of All Black rugby, it certainly has no bearing on a match as most teams have faced it numerous times and would not feel intimidated by it.
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To my mind if tha AB's or Somoans or whoever want to spend the few minutes after the Anthems to perform a traditional war dance, then fair enough - it's always good to watch some culture.
What I don't understand is why the opposition has to stand around getting cold watching it - fair enough it is a challenge but you have to say it is a totally one sided one.
I seriously think that it should be left to individual players if they want to "face up" to the haka - others may want to continue with their physical warm up or just prepare themselves in some other way.
It is a NZ tradition to do the haka, so let them get on with it. The opposition can make up their own minds what they want to do.
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Don't you think that if it were a "spear tackle" then the Independent citing officer/Panel would have said so and banned the 2 involved??? I think that he/they are more qualified to adjudicate on such issues then.
End of the day its the Haka and "poaching "is just more moaning by ignorant,uneducated people that claim to know something they clearly know nothing about. Why Should we respect another countrys Culture. Because we should, but here in Britian we have a problem in doing that. Oh its different to us, Not good. Learn other peoples history /Culture.......Not impose ours on others.
Keep the Haka, its good to see a country proud of who they are and where they are from. I love the Samoan Tongan and Fiji "Haka" and if South Africa want to do their own one Fantastic. Lets not become some sterile world.
If you don't like it fine just don't disrespect another countrys culture. Or are we here in the UK becoming like a certin country across the pond. Its our way or no way
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Quite agree! If the All Blacks wish to do the haka, they should do it wherever in the proceedings before the game allowe by their hosts. Their petulant behaviour when asked by Wales to perform their little dance before the Anthems so as to allow a response by their opposition was unworthy of the New Zealand nation. They cannot have it both ways; they bleat about disrespect if an opponent does anything other than watch the dance, but sulk in the dressing room if asked to face a reply in kind.
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I love comment no. 730. To the effect that the spear tackle was an accident and to get over it. Mr. Van der Haast seems to think that by printing the words "IT WUZ AN ACCIDENT" in block capitals, that that makes it an accident. And, with all due respect, the fact that Umanga saved Charvis from swallowing his tongue a few years earlier does not prove that the spear tackle on O'Driscoll was an accident.
Yes, the Haka should be allowed. And yes, rugby players should be entitled to give and receive hard hits. But, it is also a mark of manhood to apologise for something dangerous perpetrated on another human being. And Umanga's somewhat immature reaction to the whole incident is to call O'Driscoll "a whinger". An apology for dangerous play would have been more appropriate (not in public, but to O'Driscoll personally). But the reality is that Umanga himself might also have been a bit put out to find himself out of the series a minute into the first match.
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Most commentators (including those from New Zealand) are agreed that it was a spear tackle.
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How can a european complain about the Haka when its part of tradition.
If you want to get rid of it, then begone with the national antheums as well.
If its England who are upset about it then tough! We're gonna do it any way. Remember the game against the Welsh. When the All Blacks couldn't perform the haka all locals were very disappointed about it.
Tell England that the can do the Morris Dance if it makes them feel any better and if they think it gives them the competitive advantage.
I also believe you should remove this from your site. Its like every New Zealander complaining about the stupid Union Jack that should be removed from your flag! as well as our!
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I think the rules change back in 99? where the IRB said from now on if a player plays for one country (National team or A's dont know about U21's )they cant play for another Country.
Since then Players have had to "Nail their Flag to the Pole" and Since then No player has played for One Country and then another. Yes a few of the Pacific Island Players played for the PI team against Aussie- NZ- and South Africa. But only because they were allowed to and it would not effect their right's to play for Aussie or NZ at a later date.
Now in one way I think yes it's a good Idea and in another way I think maybe if they Play for one country but only get 1-2-3 caps and then dont get selected again maybe they could play for another country that is ranked well below the country that they played for. Eg say for example Mark Van Gisbergen played what 1 test? what if he wanted to help out the Dutch National side? but thats another debate.
Think you are thinking of Brian Smith
Another point I have just found out, is that out of the 1070 people that have played for New Zealand team since they first started playing in 1884
2 were born in American Samoa
1 born in Malaysia
5 born in Ireland
3 born in India
1 born in Hong Kong
18 born in Aussie
7 born in England
8 born in Fiji
7 born in Tonga
2 born in South Africa
9 born in Scotland
13 born in Samoa
So whats that 28 players from the "Islands" 28 out of 1070 not many at all about 2.6%
76 people have been born outside of NZ and played for them, Tried looking on 91热爆 nations Rugby sites but couldnt find that info
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How can a european complain about the Haka when its part of tradition.
If you want to get rid of it, then begone with the national antheums as well.
If its England who are upset about it then tough! We're gonna do it any way. Remember the game against the Welsh. When the All Blacks couldn't perform the haka all locals were very disappointed about it.
Tell England that the can do the Morris Dance if it makes them feel any better and if they think it gives them the competitive advantage.
I also believe you should remove this from your site. Its like every New Zealander complaining about the stupid Union Jack that should be removed from your flag! as well as our!
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People,
So many of you know so little about New Zealand and it's people but appear so knowledgble about it.
You really should go there or if you can't afford to make the trip, do abit more research.
Whites and pacific islanders from NZ are all New Zealanders and the haka belongs to them.
Are you saying that Black English people and Asian English people are not a part of England?
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Post 50
NZ seem to forget that the first time they played Wales, they performed the haka (early 1900s).
The Welsh crowd responded with their National Anthem.
Last year, the ABs wanted to do their haka and the Welsh wanted to respond with the National Anthem.
Somehow, this was contrary to the spirit and tradition and we were suddenly disrespectful, despite having a historic precedent.
There is no problem with someone deciding to do some sort of demonstartion of pride and nationalistic ritual before a game, but you can't have it both ways.
If both aren't allowed to do their thing, let's so away with it all and concentrate on what we've come to see
30 grown men running after an odd shaped ball,
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how do they get an advantage, ok they get psyched up by doing but plenty of other players have there own mental way of psychin up for a match. all these people sayin that the opposing team should at least be given a right of response is ridiculous, what would the other sides do, you cant just dream up a dance routine just to get even over something so small. im sure the opposing teams pay no attention to it as they are preparing themselves. also someone mentioned the game with ireland when the irish marched towards them whilst they were performing the haka, ireland still lost that match so obviously no advantage from replying
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the haka is a tradition and its great to watch i just think they should stick to one haka and not make new ones because it loses a bit of its tradition and feeling.
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I remember seeing the Haka performed at Cardiff Arms Park. It was a great spectacle and already then part of Rugby Union folklore. One had the feeling of being in the presence of something special - folks who seriously cared about their rugby. From a spectator's point of view I am all in favour of tradition, even though the Haka has been modified over the years it remains a signature of a consistently great rugby playing nation. That being said what do players on opposing sides think? Arguably a side trained and coached to the same level as the ABs may not be intimidated by this pre-game war dance. However we all know not many of those sides exist! On balance I would say let those sides who wish to, perform their own self motivating ritual at the same time, but not a Morris dance, please.
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The principle of the Haka has a great tradition and those chastising the change or the throat slitting may wish to understand the translation if they haven't already. Then, understanding that it's about more than just a pre-rugby match face off may change a few views.
I cannot agree with NZ stopping other nations performing an anthem (I find the Irish anthem as stirring as the Haka), but stopping the haka doesn't seem to make sense. I don;t think we can stop responses to the Haka, but laughing, waving bums or other such childish behaviour is as childish as doing so during the anthems. I thought we had more respect than that, but feel free to prove me wrong.
Surely we all have a few minutes of our lives to give up to a nation proudly continuing a tradition with such stirring undertones. Or are we so governed by 40 min attention spans that we can't spare the time?
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Nice to read some good comments here. For a lot of people to see the Haka before a game is part of watching the All Blacks play.
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I think it is impossible for us northern hemisphere inhabitants to understand the haka, old and new. And for added fun lets throw in the sipi tau and all the pacific island variants (Niue islands, Raruotonga, Fiji and the Cook Islands). All these places have a warlike heritage that is part of their culture to this very day. The tribal system based on traditional warrior values of the strongest leading still prevail through out the pacific islands, and you have to include New Zealand in that due to their proximity. For us to mock this by suggesting we do a morris dance/riverdance/celtic showing of nads implies disrespect. For us to now choose to add these to our pre-match repetoire would, to me at least, some how demean them. To ask these proud nations to remove something so deeply imprinted on the game would lessen the experience. I an all for it.
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I love the Haka, old and new! You can just see the testosterone level rise as they do it-I am all for different replies from different countries. It is interesting to see other Pacific Islanders respond with their own Haka then you really get to see what it should be: two teams of men beating their chests and going through a ritual to psych themselves up and intimidate the opponent. Bring it on!
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Why is there no such complaints when Tonga, Samoa or Fiji perform their haka?
Have you witnessed a Tonga vs Samoa game where they lay down their challenges at the same time? Surely this is one of the best moments in world rugby.
Maybe the All Blacks have this psychological edge even before they get on the field!!!
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Funny thing but if you read through posts here you'll notice it's almost exclusively the english that oppose the haka, and I might hasten to add not even all of them. Really, it's just sour grapes isn't it? I mean the english team have been rubbish as defending champions to date and attacking the haka is simply hiding the tears. We could remove the haka (or the anthems for that matter) but none of this is going to hide the fact that really England have screwed this up big time. Don't you feel just a little pathetic blaming a pre game ritual for your sad state of affairs? Furthermore and for the record no one in NZ has ever had a problem with teams responding to the haka. Do whatever dance/songs/arse flashing you feel is necessary. Turn away. Hum a tune. Close your eyes. Whatever. The only thing you don't want is for the AB's to not be allowed to do the haka - THEN you would see a fired up team!
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Well the Kiwis went down in my estimation when they threw a hissy fit at the millennium stadium a couple of years ago. Fine traditions are great but are definitely not exclusive to New Zealand.
Lets take it for what it is, a bunch of men dancing. Fine. If thats what the Kiwis need to get up for a game thats alright. My problem would be why should the rest of the world have to (and i emphasise have to) show nothing short of reverence to their custom? My feeling is that the opposition should just turn a blind eye and let them perform for the crowd.
David Campese had the right idea!
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Haven't read ALL the posts but wouldn't it solve the problem if the ABs and the other PI countries did their 'haka' and then the opponents (via the captain) could hold up a card giving them a mark out of 5.
The marks could be subdivided into 'threat value' and 'artistic interpretation'.
The haka performers would get great feedback and the crowd would be involved as well - result!!
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I see the Haka as part of the Maori culture and agree with their right to perform it on home ground. However, imposing this new 'Tradition' on other cultures on their ground smacks of arrogance.
At best, they should ask the hosts if they are allowed to perform it and when,instead of having the right to use it as a weapon just before kick-off .
The New Zealand team completely lost the plot in Wales, spitting the dummy, calling the 91热爆 to film them doing the Haka, with the intention of embarrassing the Welsh Rugby Union into submission. And, no doubt, sending a signal to the rest of the rugby world, 'Don't mess with the All Blacks.'
This, I believe, shows the belligerent underbelly of the New Zealand psyche, and reflects the national attitude to anyone who takes issue with their precious All Blacks.
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Wow, the Poms really get very upset at getting relentlessly flogged, thrashed, and humiliated by the Kiwi's, Aussies, and South African's in every single sport they compete in don't they?
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In reference to Robert # 751, your grip on tradition is poor at best as the "tradition" used to be that the AB's only performed the haka while on tour in other countries and was encouraged by the home union who appreciated the value that it added to the spectacle
The only "belligerence" demonstrated is by the knockers who only add power to the haka by exhibiting their fear
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Assuming Fijians, Samoans and Tongan New Zealanders belong to the islands and not the country of their birth or the one they have residence and citizenship in (they migrated here with their families to live under the age of 18, not as recruited professionals) is racism.
None of the AB's have represented the island nations. All there is the SP "Barbarians" team which was given test status on condition that it did not interfere with players rights to choose which international teram they chose to play for.
What about the word multi-cultural do some not understand?
As to the haka being of Maori origin and New Zealand culture - we are a bi-cultural nation with a multi-cultural society. Migrants to New Zealand become part of our culture.
Is it wrong to say there is some sort of projection and transference going on? When football supporters transferred their support for their team onto animous of the other team AND their supporters (racism easily comes into the mix, as does "provocation and gratuitous insult") it is rightly deemed a blight on the sport. What exactly do some of the comments here indicate?
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Robert
The year earlier an agreement was reached to have the Welsh anthem in response to the haka as a one off exception to the norm for the 100 years.
That the Welsh then wanted to do this again the following year in breach of the earlier agreement annoyed the AB's.
That the arrangment for the haka before the start and after the anthems has been by mutual agreement is shown by it not being performed on that subsequent (to the centennial) occasion.
That the AB's chose to do the haka for themselves AND for the TV audience was not petualnace - just a statement that they do the haka because they want to and there are those who want to see the haka before the game starts.
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Yeah great, let countries have a response, especially a great rousing Welsh song. Maybe Australia could do "Tie Me Kangaroo Down Sport" or a Kylie song.
In response to Brian #41, do you really think that O'Driscoll was spear tackled because he challenged the haka? No, he was tackled for walking on the pitch to play a game of rugby - where injuries are part of the game. Ask Umaga - who went out of the 2003 RWC early after colliding with Careless Spencer and is the last guy who would ever try to intentionally end someone's career. The O'Dismall affair was only such a big deal because the British media needed a diversion from the pounding the embarrassing Lions we receiving.
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"Flower of Scotland isn't even recognised as a National Anthem by the Scottish Parliment! It's God Save the Queen or nothing please."
Sorry - but that's the English national anthem - just listen to the words of the conveniently omitted verse. (And it's also not even a national anthem really - just a dirge to some woman about keeping her family in power and wealth).
So you can have your haka - but don't then tell other countries what they can and can't play.
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Ive just typed in "New Zealand Rugby supporter" "Haka" and "precious" into google and its shown me a picture of a huge wind up toy..........
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Re 745: excellent comment, and right on the money. You clearly stand out from most of your fellows as represented here. Expression of national pride is precisely the point. Demean it at your peril.
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i cant believe a blog like this was even written. the haka is fantastic and the lame excuse by some people here that it gives the ab an advantage is ridiculous. if the kiwis were an average team and winning match after match after doing the haka then you might have some kind of merit but the fact is that new zealand are a fantastic team who win anyway rules that arguement out. also to those calling them chokers, look at your own teams.the haka is a fantastic part of rugby. I'm irish by the way. also to the kiwis calling everyone whinging poms grow up and stop being so pettty yourselves. kiwis here have said stop being racist or making racial slurs, when pom is a derogatory term aswell. ye have great team, ye dont need to be so defensive and also stop telling the nh fans to stop going on about the spear tackle on o driscoll- it was a miracle he wasnt paralysed and sorry just because the player involved helped out charvis a few years ago, it doesnt absolve that incident. the all blacks had a game plan to take dallaglio and o driscoll, 2 influential leaders out of the tour and it worked.
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Surely the issue is not should the ABs be allowed to do the haka but are the rugby authorities preventing other teams from responding. If they are then all forms of national ritual should be prevented other than the 2 national anthems.
If the haka is there for entertainment then let other teams face it down. I found the Richard Cockerill response v. entertaining and enhanced intencity for the whole match.
If the ABs themselves are trying to veto other teams responses (only evidence being the press)then the haka should not be allowed. All teams should be afforded the same advantages prior to kick off.
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Keep the haka. It is part of being New Zealand that they start with a psychological advantage. That advantage does not stem from the haka itself but from the formidable all black record.
When the team you are about to play does the haka, you are about to lose. That is the meaning of the haka: the inevitability of defeat. It says "you cannot win". To beat New Zealand is to beat the haka.
Twice I have seen the haka answered as it was performed. Once when I think Richard Cockerill stood so close to the guy leading the haka that John Timu nearly fell over backwards trying to avoid him, and once when the crowd at Twickenham offered such a deafening rendition of 'Swing low...' that the haka could not be heard even by the microphones on the pitch.
On both occasions the all blacks complained that their traddition had been disrespected. In a sense it had. The all black tradition of 'winning all the rugby matches' had been disrespected. On both occasions England won the match.
Teams should answer the haka however they wish, but a victory is the best answer, and I believe the victory is all the sweeter for being both a victory over the team, and the reputation that preceeds it.
Keep the haka - and make sure New Zealand know when they've been beaten.
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QUIZ TIME. Could any NZ supporter make a meaningful sentence out of the following crazy mixed up words;
Stop being so bloody precious about the HAKA that you apparently find so deeply spiritual. We find it very funny and it makes us laugh, a lot. We also like to point at it and boo it very much. We also like to laugh a lot when NZ choke in very important games and listen to you explain why losing in a play off keeps you as "the best team in the whole wide world". Always.
We also find it a very funny when NZ rugby fans described England winning the world cup as being "a bit lucky" and "the world cup winners were not the best team in the competion - we were" (thats my favourite one)
We also laugh a lot when an entire nation fails to see the funny side of what is currently the best wind up in the entire competition so far.
First prize for winning this Quiz - A chance to boo the Haka next time out (and point).
Second Prize - A chance to Laugh at the NZ team when they next choke (probably some time between 06/10/07 and 19/10/07).
Third prize - There is no such thing as a third prize (so you didnt even win that last time)
Fourth Prize - A maori to english dictionary (WHAT IS MAORI FOR CHOKE -This is the last i'm asking - I really have to do some work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!).
PS. This is not a real Quiz (really)
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I love the various Hakas, they don't influence the outcome, and they should stay. But why no right to respond? Well, here's an article from a few years ago...
England have been threatened with disciplinary action if they disrupt the All Blacks' traditional 'Haka' before Saturday's match at Twickenham.
Hooker Richard Cockerill has been singled out for individual attention by the authorities, after he caused outrage two years ago by standing toe-to-toe with his opposite number, Norm Hewitt, during the Maori ritual at Old Trafford.
But the World Cup organisers have acted to avoid a similar controversy by writing to all the World Cup teams, urging them to show respect to their opponents.
The warnings follow Sunday's match at Bristol where some of the Tongan players, performing their Polynesian war dance, confronted the All Blacks, forcing Welsh referee Derek Bevan to intervene.
A Rugby World Cup spokesman, said:"We have written to all the teams involved and warned them of disciplinary action if they break the rules."
Cockerill's provocation of Hewitt at Old Trafford was considered by many to have overstepped the boundaries of good sportsmanship - but the Leicester player disagrees.
"I believe that I did the right thing that day," he said. "They were throwing down a challenge and I showed them I was ready to accept it. I'm sure they would rather we did that than walk away."
So the IRB and NZRU are only happy if everyone stands there like dear in the headlights while get their groove on. Hmmmm, well if they think that's fair, rather than one sided, petulant, and protectionist, then we should respect that. Otherwise we'd just be racist whingers. Apparently.
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How come no-one seems to mind if the Samoans, Tongans, and Fijians do their war-dance versions?
Is the opposition apparently intimidated by their performance? do we ever read media angst about how unfair it is? Of course not. Because here in the UK we see Pacific Island rugby in a wholly patronising manner - 'oh, that's nice the South Sea Islanders are trying to play rugby too'.
If an opposition facing the haka is intimidated by it then they don't have the mind-set to play rugby.
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This is nothing more than sour grapes from people whose country are under performing at the RWC & need to find a way of getting back at one of the best rugby nations of this world & who are jealous they are not as good as the AB鈥檚 have been in the past 100 years. Ask any player who repents there country in Rugby & who they want to beat & it鈥檚 the AB鈥檚. Assuming the majority of the comments here are from the English & not taking the fact away that you are indeed current RWC champions, England as a sporting nation are a bunch of loses!! I mean it doesn鈥檛 matter what sport you play, England go out one week whether it be Rugby, Cricket or Football, win a game against on the best teams in the world & you think you are world champions. Only problem is you go out the next week & lose. How many times does the world have to hear about 1966!! Or Tim Henman every time Wimbledon comes around!! When you can start constantly winning against the best week in week out, I think then you probably have a reason to complain about as something as trivial as the Haka. Until then learn how to win on the field & not the blogs!!
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Complete agreement with blog writer. I have entered a RWC dream team called Anti Haka team when forced by my wife to enter some ridiculous competition run by the Sun. I first saw the Haka at Twickenham (in 1959, I think) when it was very different. The Haka is Maori. What has it got to do with the European/PI's in the team? It is purely used for its psychological threat value. It's a form of cheating. It should go. Its encouraged tribute band copies by others; feeble and ridiculous. I don't go to a rugby match to watch dancing! Well if it were scantily clad girls it might be OK. I'm not very keen on national anthems either, especially as, as an Englishman, we have 'God Save the Queen' forced on us instead of 'Land of Hope and Glory' as per Commonwealth Games. When you play abroad, All Blacks, you play as guests of your host. Is the Haka the way guests should behave?
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tonyd 763. i'm actually quite appalled by your petty, bigoted and small minded comments. if that's the typical english rugby fan, then i fear for english rugby. you're really really pathetic.england did well to win the wc but in my opinion nz have always had the better players. i'm not english or kiwi, i'm irish and i think what you just said is possibly the most ignorant, arrogant blogs ive read in quite a while. if youre going to talk about chokers, then apply it to the england team as their defence of the wc has been disastrous.
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Are we against the haka purely as a diversion for losing to them all the time?
Not so long ago the Welsh interfered with when the haka was to be performed, so the All Blacks performed it in their changing sheds and allowed only a New Zealand film crew in. Who ended up disappointed that day? The Welsh fans did. It is part of the entertainment of the sports match you attend. It isn't a psychological threat, unless you are that weak of mind in which case you shouldn't be on the field anyway!
A shame it is the minority who don't like it but have more than their share to say because if it goes the Kiwi's will just do it in the changing sheds for their TV crew and beat whoever is on the park anyway! The fans will then miss out. We better find a better excuse than the haka for losing to them.
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Rich
The racist comments inferred that Samoans, Tongans and Fijians born in or resident and citizens of New Zealand should play for the island teams (possibly based on ignorance or deliberate misinformation about them in the British media).
The concerns about the response to the haka of the IRB refer to the teams being in proximity (especially if players cross the half way line).
I doubt anyone can see any racism in the way teams/players choose to respond to the haka or not.
Frankly the AB's and supporters could not care less what the opposing team or crowd chooses to do. It simply reflects their character before the contest.
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Matt (no 736), I suspect that the point is not how many non NZ born players have played for the AB's since 1884, but rather since, say, 1994!
I suspect it will include most of those 76!
I wonder what percentage you would see if you looked at the last 100 NZ caps awarded? Not far off 76% perhaps?
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You guys are all pussies.
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Alex - #707 absolutely spot on mate!!
of course he (umaga) knew what he and Mealamu were doing i.e. taking out the kingpin opposition player at the earliest opportunity (surprised it took them until the second minute)! - at least Marshall had the guts to see if BOD was ok on the way off the pitch!
fatprop - agreed but "timotei timotei wash and go" and standing a yard away outstaring the pub haka participants also does the trick!!
:-)
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