91Èȱ¬

"the inch-thick document - about Conservative spending plans! - Mr Darling had produced. It was, in fact, thicker than the Pre-Budget Report."

I really am at a loss for words, Ugh.

A phoney war - how very true.

Politcians, shop-keepers, estate agents, public sector workers and, well, most of us are simply in denial about how bad things are economically... and how much worse they will have to come in 2010.

The meeja is busy ramping house prices again seemingly only able to interview estate agents - a bit like interviewing Hitler in the final days of WW2 and asking him how the war is going. You can't switch on 91Èȱ¬ News 24 without seeing some young reporter stood in a half-empty shopping centre trying to convince us that the shops are bursting with shoppers loading up on shopping bags and debt.

The UK is very much a two economy state at the moment - a private sector that has been blitzed, with little serious reporting of this on the television news programmes, and a public sector which appears to be totally oblivious to anything amiss with UK PLC. In fact, many public sector workers have been getting, or are about to get, pay rises. Ludicrous!

The cold, harsh reality is that whoever gets into power this year - Labour, Conservative, Liberal, whoever - will have to slash and burn public sector spending and jobs in ways unseen since the days of the woman from Grantham.

The country is bust and simply cannot afford such a masive, bloated public sector - neither their salaries nor their very generous pensions. Private sector workers, those still in work, are fed up to the high teeth in paying their wages and their pensions whilst having little or no pensions of their own - will the next Government preside over a 1970's style brain drain as a result? Why work and be taxed to the eyeballs so that others will get a better pension? Best to opt out, move on and work overseas.

Then there is the serious and real issue of a sovereign debt crisis - those 'nice foreigners' simply refusing to buy our debt and the madness of a British economy, still outsourcing high-tech skills and jobs, obsessed with easy credit (debt) and house prices that must be seen to rise and rise almost weekly - the US, Spain, Eire and other European countries have seen house prices plunge by 40, 50 and more percent in recent years but, here in the UK where house prices rose further and faster than any other country save Eire, house prices remain in the stratosphere.

Is that all we have left as a country - one half of the nation gloating over their house price doubling or trebling in the past 5 years, and the other half doomed to never be able to afford even a garden shed!?

No, the coming cull of public sector jobs, which has to happen, will see thousands of British home owners unable to afford their mortages simply because they will not have jobs. Add to that the real possibility of our gilts and bonds being refused will mean higher interest rates to lure in those 'nice foreigners' to buy them... and that will filter down to higher mortgage rates, already rising on the quiet, and eventually higher interest rates for the prudent saver. When interest rates rise just watch those house prices plunge.

Phoney war? Yes, very much so but, as Churchill knew full well in the early Summer of 1940, there was a gathering storm.

Speaking of credibility...

In the mire.

Time for a dossier.

Hopefully not dodgy.

Again.

Go GOATs!

Labour has "costed" Conservative cuts and spending plans

How did they do that? I just ask because I presume they didn't use public funds to do it, and as they are broke then wonder about the extent and competence being applied.

Still I am sure it will be headlined appropriately as 'news' we will be soon served from various 'motley' (I mean it only in a nice way) press releases.

WHAT PROFIT A MAN

All this inspection of the world of money will, perhaps, get Mammon back on an even keel. Then, if Climate-Change 'melts away' we will still be left with a deranged mass of humanity, immature, anxious and nihilistic.

Are we attending to the right factors? Natural forces aside, all the ills of man arise from denial of Nature - being at odds with himself. No amount of GROWTH will mend us - unless it is growth in MATURITY - INTEGRITY - WISDOM.

Keep doing the sums - they will still add up to naught.

to be honest they should always say any cuts/tax rises are due to what the bankers did. for some reason they are shy of giving 'ownership' of the problem to the right people. instead they prefer to use the debt as a trojan horse for their pet policies.

DOES A HEALTHY NATION (MENTAL AND PHYSICAL) NOT 'COST OUT'

Successive governments have seen fit to have a sick society (fed negative physical and psychological factors, through 'cultural norms') balanced by a massive 'care' service, EMPLOYING VAST NUMBERS. We are told the cost of alcohol to the NHS has doubled in a short period BUT WHAT OF THE REVENUE in the same period? How do the figures look?

There can be no doubt that the party in power boosts its esteem with expenditure. We also know just how evil their strategic thinking can be (take a look at the advisers). Is misery and sickness from salt, fat, sugar, tobacco, alcohol, sedentary life etc, A PRICE WORTH PAYING - paid by us - so that government can provide free 'care' in our reduced state?
Is our culturally wrecked health, an unrecognised stealth tax?

Is 'healthcare' the new mining or shipbuilding?

May we see the balance sheet? Any whistleblower like to tell us who makes such a choice on our behalf?

PART 2 (#6)

How much employment does crime and disorder support? How does the profit and loss look? Another stelth tax paid in human misery?

Balance sheet?

#5 Jaunty

'..... they should always say any cuts/tax rises are due to what the bankers did. '

Bit of a narrow view there in my view. More due to the unchecked greed and lack of basic human values of MOST of us. Bankers may be at the top of the pile but the base of the pyramid is broader by far and harder to point a finger at.

HUGE hike in luxury tax - entertainment, restaurant, alcohol, high fashion, most holidays - all the STUFF we desire but don’t NEED – might be a good start.

In more than one obvious area, we are a nation that is over fed but undernourished, over stimulated but under inspired, over informed but under aware, over protected but under empowered........

REALITY CHECK required. NURSE?????????

PART 3 (#6)

Armed forces and armaments industry (aka 'defence') - allied with repairing damage done to foreign infrastructure. The military 'institutionalises' many and kills/maims some more. (Squaddies pay tax, and how else might we employ them?) This is a terrible human price, but is the bottom line a monetary profit, such that successive British government, headed by their posturing ninnies, can spray it across the lucky 'winners' in this bizarre life-game?

I think we should see the figures.

''Content and substance? Emotional reconnection? Leadership, narrative, credibility? You be the judge.''

The current situation is reflected in voter apathy, the low turn out for elections is a systemic failure it says ''we do not have faith in the system as a whole, nothing you politicians present to us captures our imagination sufficiently to even put a cross on a piece of paper''.

In that sense it is not a failure of the much criticised feckless young and social 'chav' underclass to vote it is a systemic failure of leadership.

Many people like me vote anyway, even when it feels like sifting out the lesser of 2 evils rather than a positive vote based on a passionate belief. I wonder what the voter turn out would be if people like me did not vote either?

I suspect it would be down in the 30% area, yet the current comfortable informal unwritten cartel between the media ownership, politicians, lawyers and bankers continues only by virtue of its own alternative visionary view crushing momentum.

I dont think it is consciously deliberate either, it is basic 'human' (animal) nature coming out again. We have simply outgrown the current democratic and justice system built to supress our darker side and it needs upgrading again.

Guess who would lose out from that process?

Primarily it would be

Media ownership, politicians, lawyers and bankers.

Funny that eh!

#10 Jericoa


'.......... lesser of 2 evils '

JUST the TWO???????????????

But seriously, if we look beyond the two big boys (surrounded by their entourage and big boys toys) and root out some of the smaller guys.

Who is who tells us that all votes for any other than the big boys would be a wasted vote?

Would that be the Big Boys???????????

A Very Convenient Message to a confuzzled electorate

The people of Iceland have marched on their PM's home demanding that, now they are bust, to not pay back all the money that they owe us, the Dutch and anyone else. Funny, they weren't complaining when they were riding the credit wave and most in Europe appeared paupers alongside the wealthy cod-folk.

By now the French would have have got the guillotine out if the City of London had been the City of Paris. No worries for bankers there about bonuses - it would have been more of a worry as to whether they kept their heads or not. At the very least, throwing rotten fruit at bankers whilst the French Police stood by doing nothing would have become an interesting rush-hour distraction.

If the bankers had been based in certain Middle Eastern and Asian countries, as many of them now threaten to exit for, do you honestly think that there would be many, if any, bankers left around now? How many lashes does it take to tear up a bespoke Armani suit?

But the British do nothing.

At best we bent over and, at worst, we are powerless to stop our taxes bailing out those who have helped destroy the country's economy... but the politicians played a big hand also... as did all those who took out liar loans on houses, maxed out numerous credit cards and lived like Kings and Queens for the past ten years.

Will we do an Iceland - no, not unless someone organises an orderly queue for lynching or Simon Cowell comes up with some kind of reality end of the British economy show!

It is apt that the UK is going through an icy spell at present. We live in a land of fantasy economic denial - a fiscally stuffed Narnia.

Apologies. I have piggybacked this post to respond to the earlier request for a decent predictions show:

/blogs/newsnight/paulmason/2009/12/hangover_and_mincepie_surfeit.html

Stumbled across an ascerbic and informative show by Max Keiser on 5 Live:

/programmes/b00pgpkc

There's only four days left to listen. Perhaps this can fill the spot until Paul's show tomorrow!

Paul,

Your comment about Iran is intriguing:

"Iran's going to be a very different place this time next year."

Not sure if you ever read Bob Woodward's "Plan of Attack" in which he recounts the military and political planning of the Iraq invasion. In this he refers to a meeting between Blair and Bush (at the infamous Camp David meet in 2002, I think) where Bush spells out his strategy for reforming the Middle East. First Afghanistan, then Iraq, then ....... and then the reader (and perhaps Blair too) is left hanging. If my suspicions are right, then US has been gearing up for regime change in Iran for quite a while now.

Obfuscation, obfuscation, obfuscation.
Complexity, complexity, complexity.
Confusion, confusion, confusion.
Dissimulation, dissimulation, dissimulation

The party which will win the coming election will be the party with the simplest message. I recommend that the main parties concentrate on simplicity.

The public have been confused into voting New Labour before. They now feel they have been lied to. This is both the source of the apathy and hopefully will be the trigger for public anger expressed through the polls.

So we need a simple and truthful message. This is the test of character for the political class. Are they up to? Time will tell.

WOULD ANYONE ON HERE REGARD ME AS APATHETIC? (#10)

Yet, because I don't vote, the scurrilous political classes would label me such.

I am VOLITIONLESS - drained of any will to engage with something as despicable as the charade of British, 'representative', parliamentary 'democracy'. And, by extension, I have little respect for the thought-processes of these who do engage.

Where is the 'ABSTAIN' box on the voting slip? I have already reported my local MP as having told me to return a 'spoiled paper' (refusing to raise this issue) - another MP likewise. Is it beyond Westminster to realise this option, belonging by right - yet denied, all these years, might raise their dismal standing at paltry cost? Are they defensive knaves or gormless fools? Give me an ABSTAIN BOX, and I will turn out - hell or high water - and put a cross in it. Who is with me?

I am NOT apathetic - closer to APOPLECTIC.

# 6 Barry

"We are told the cost of alcohol to the NHS has doubled in a short period BUT WHAT OF THE REVENUE in the same period? How do the figures look?"

This is a good example of the sorry state of current economic dogma. Our GDP figures look far betrer if we are all throwing alcohol down our necks and the NHS clears up the mess. It's the same stupid stimulus as deliberately digging holes in the road and then hiring people to fill them up again.

No-one profits from abstinence!

Surely no one expects in the run up to a general election that truth will not be the first casualty. The Tories seem hell bent on frightening the living daylights of public sector workers for no good reason. However Labour has a gigantic credibility problem with their genetic tendency to equate presentation with achievement compounded by Brown attaching himself incompetently to every pop-up issue. But when all the shouting has finished it will be the economy, stupid.

I am advised that complications due to alcohol consumption costs the NHS GBP 2 billion, yet the tax take from the sale of booze yields GBP 8 billion. This is the smoking argument all over again!

Yet, why is it that the British spend oodles of money drinking poisons, inhaling poisons, injecting poisons and sniffing poisonous powders up their noses? And then call it fun? Can someone answer that for me? Is it the weather, the taxes, the class system or what?

My guess is that it kills the fear: a bit like Yanks and guns.

..alcohol consumption costs the NHS GBP 2 billion, ..

and how much the police service, the justice service, the social security service, etc?

You don't need to read Bob Woodward's Iraq or Iran anything...

Just watch the last 10 minutes of the 1975 political thriller 'Three Days of the Condor' when Robert Reford's character (Turner) is told by Cliff Robertson's character (Higgins) the following:

Higgins: It's simple economics. Today it's oil, right? In ten or fifteen years, food. Plutonium. Maybe even sooner. Now, what do you think the people are gonna want us to do then?

Joe Turner: Ask them?

Higgins: Not now - then! Ask 'em when they're running out. Ask 'em when there's no heat in their homes and they're cold. Ask 'em when their engines stop. Ask 'em when people who have never known hunger start going hungry. You wanna know something? They won't want us to ask 'em. They'll just want us to get it for 'em!

It is cold in my house now, the heating is on and the 91Èȱ¬ is just telling me that the National Grid wants us all to turn down our gas usage.

And now for a quote from a 1975 film about politicians that is just as true today as it has always been.

Joe Turner: Boy, what is it with you people? You think not getting caught in a lie is the same thing as telling the truth?

will we be watching how to sell your soul for a fistfull of lies?

HERE'S A POINTER TO HOW FAR MANKIND HAS TO GO.

I am listening to 'Beyond Belief' where an African doctor/aid worker, is described as having had parents who WORSHIPPED IDOLS! The narrator went on: "BUT THEN HE BECAME A CHRISTIAN".

It is the word 'BUT' that draws my attention. To the rational among us, there is no difference between virtual and physical idols - WORSHIP is the defining act, allied to FAITH. Faith is the word ever on the lips of Saint Tony. Does that not speak volumes? Brown is both devout and devious; how are we going to get anywhere with such needy juveniles in positions of power? Those who lack 'strength of self', are constantly working hidden agendas, as they save they praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.

As I have just said on Stephanie's blog, I have switched off until after the election then I may start listening again.

#17 Erratum:

Apologies, should read: Barrie

Brain still fuddled on brandy-butter.

20

Jaunty

What police, what justice and what social security?

YOU'RE MY MATE, YOU ARE HIC EYE (#25)

Just call me Brian, everyone seems to.

It's all about credibility?
Nearly all - I think that both parties are just following tactics as not showing all of their cards as it is still a bit too early.
Who or what anyone believes or agrees with this that or the other is immaterial - let's get this into the ballot box for settlement.
Brown, Darling Balls are the ones creating the uncertainty - and deliberately so - they may just wait long enough for general price inflation inflation to show itself and this will help the Tories as significant government generated macro level inflation was 'invented' by the Labour Party in the 1960's/70's and reached 24% pa, I recall in 1975.
Manufacturing spending is up (Dec 09) - but is this just advance stocking up of inventories in anticipation of product price inflation? The purchasing managers are very often the 'wisest guys on the block' but their actions are, I think, very often misunderstood.
Labour are playing a dangerous game here and it may just blow up in their faces as inflation has been a significant factor in finishing off just about every post war Labour leader.
The manufacture and concealment of an uncomfortably higher rate 'time-bomb' of price inflation, within the UK economy, is a not deserving of any 'credibility'.
Is it 'when but not 'if' will the spectre of higher rate inflation start to bite? When Darling and KIng 'manufacture' the end of the technical recession?

Given to extent to which politicians are being a. boring and b. economic with the truth, I think there will be a very low turn out at the next general election (for the main parties at least)

No.11 (the hash key is broken on this netbook!)

Point taken, I rather like Barries idea of an 'abstention' box in effect a 'vote of no confidence in the whole system' box on the ballot paper..it would win by a country mile!!

Perhaps we should set up a petition on the 10 downing street website before they print the ballot papers. It may prove popular y'know!

160 days of claims, counter claims and activists wearing masks / top hats etc etc. Better get off and do an article on the economics of the slums in Kinshasa Paul, at least that will have a certain honesty associated with the economic and social analysis in the style of Graham Greens 'Heart of the Matter'. As you imply, I dont know how anyone benefits from setting up or attending the press conference you describe today, it is pantomine minus the jokes or general entertainment value yet these guys run the show!!!!

Simon Cowel would not have much competion with his political show.

Agree - phoney....the focus group, a widely practised technique, small groups of 'sample voters' from similar backgrounds moderated by a market research professional. Group dynamic maintained to allow a truthful response. Results then processed and policies then assessed for interest-group approval / disapproval / minority prejudice/swing-voter and core-support aceptability. Policies passed along the conveyer for preliminary approval ( and some informal moot-debating) and media-testing. Get some leaks out first and then run some more focus groups. Expensive market research professional then produces the big idea -, agh, um, ahem, whoa " credibility !" Its the answer. Produce screeds of stuff from the researchers to give to the media, in the hope that one out of ten issues are found to score a direct hit on the other side's "credibility". The voters dont trust politicians, do they, so lets get more trusted than the other guy. Then, keep churning out the phrase and point-score so it creates a negative on the opponents,refining as we go.

Why do you need leadership?

ABSTENTION AS AN HONOURABLE OPTION IN DEMOCRATIC VOTING (#30)

Thanks Jericoa - but perhaps simpler, and more effective, when collated (with names named) is for all who see worth in an ABSTAIN box on the voting slip, to email their MP and ask (1) do you agree this is good democratic practice (2) will you take immediate action to bring about this change.

I have a feeling, ALL who ask their MP (regardless of party) will get the same FORMULAIC 'Westminster Citadel answer' PROTECTING THE STATUS QUO. Now why might that be?

The petition route is slow and defeated by lack of numbers. However JUST ONE REPLY per MP, to the questions above, combined to show dereliction of the Westminster ethos, will suffice to nail these ciphers.

To all NN posters: EMAIL YOUR MP WITHOUT DELAY. ASK FOR AN ABSTENTION BOX. REPORT BACK (especially ABSTAINERS!). You can find me on the web - via website.

PS Anyone who knows of countries where abstention is an option, please post.

Amen to that #32

And can I add, suggest ALL the friends/contacts you have who may also be despondent about the quality of options, be encouraged to do the same.

Mzatter of interest, what happens when the 'None of the above' party wins?

#34 shireblogger wrote:

'Mzatter of interest, what happens when the 'None of the above' party wins?'

As we are supposed to vote for the person rather than the party (FTP not PR) then the constituency election should be run again with some new people (the old ones barred for this round). This should be repeated until there is a result.

As anybody who has £500 to spare can stand for election, people with cash but no popularity can stand repeatedly, a better policy would be to have to get 5% of the registered electorate to back your standing (they don't have to vote for you, just agree to you being on the ballot paper).

If you email your MP then you should use as they keep a tally of responsiveness.

#32 amd #35
That could have legs y'know, adding an abstention box to the ballot paper would be the first truely democratic election we have had in this country for some time!

It would scare the life out of the incumbents because I think they know already what the result of a 'vote of no confidence' by the people of this nation on the totality of its available leadership would be...

I will happily e-mail my MP in the manner Rob suggests, I will have a look at setting up a no.10 downing street website petition as well, which i think is quite easy to do and every little helps. I am snowed in today so may have a bit of time to do some digging of the non 'snow on the drive' kind..onward -ho !

#32 and #35

I have written to my Mp (contact details deleted) as below via the 'write to them' site.

Will let you know how I get on.


Dear DELETED

As my parliamentary representative I would like to petition you to put forward the addition of an 'abstention' option on the ballot paper for this years election. This would have no significant cost implication and would enhance the democratic process.

This would give the people of this country a formal way to register a lack of faith in the current party political set up and allow a mechanism to promote a much deeper and wide ranging debate about our society than we are having at the moment. Only good would come of that.

Please note that the use of 'a spoiled ballot' is not a suitable substitute for a definitive 'abstention' option on the ballot paper.

I would hope that once we have a definitive figure on the level of discontent in this country this would spurn a genuinely fresh look at how we do things.

At the moment I (and others like me) think the level of discontent with the system generally has been ignored, brushed under the carpet and only represented by the appalling turn out figures for elections. That must surely be an indication that something is wrong we should be doing something about.

We can do something about it, and what is more it will cost next to nothing to get some data on it.

Surely this idea is at least worthy of a question in parliament and may spark the much broader and honest debate the rulers of this nation and its people now so desperately need, especially following the expenses scandal.

This suggestion can only enhance the democratic process, will cost nothing and may spurn a more far reaching debate than the endless 'point scoring' we are seeing at the moment between the two main parties.

Surely there can be no reasonable objection to this suggestion in a truely democratic society?

Yours sincerely,


DELETED

A WORTHY START TO 2010 (#37)

Should you need to drive the point home, Jericoa, it is vital that 'they' don't avoid COUNTING the abstentions. When I raised this months back, I stressed the quantifiable aspect of the abstention vote.

Your letter to your MP a pleasure to read. I am almost optimistic, and that takes some doing!

#38 ..AND THERES MORE!!

I Set up a petition with No.10 as below, if it gets approved it will appear as 'vote-abstention' ( max 16 charaters allowed for the title).

copied here below.

I had better go and try to get to work again now!!


Your petition reads:

We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to amend the
general election ballot paper to include an 'abstention' option
in addition to the named local candidates.

Faith in politics and our system of democracy is badly shaken
in this country following the expenses scandal, the Iraq war 45
minute claim, the failure to regulate the banks and the failure
to protect our troops to name but four.

It is proposed to empower the electorate of this nation to
positively register an objection to the current choice of
leadership by including an option to express a lack of faith in
all the candidates presented.

It is hoped that obtaining such information would spurn us to
take a long, hard, honest look at ourselves and our existing
systems of government and in so doing add to the democratic
process.

Democracy only works if there is a viable choice available for
the majority of the people to vote for.

Democracy does not work when the electorate feels forced to
choose between the lesser of broadly unsatisfactory options.

As a democratic nation we should be actively exploring if this
is the situation that has arisen so that we can consider doing
something about it.

It will incur no significant additional cost to add an
'abstention' option onto the ballot paper.

One can only try..

I AM NOT KNOW TO PRAY BUT (#39)

I wish, with all my being, that a small step away from the mess we are in, might have been taken.

Jeremy Paxman's eyebrows said it all and then the programme ended last night - just at the crucial stage of the discussion between Byrne and Hammond.

I have to pinch myself in case I'm dreaming but Byrne repeated what Darling had said earlier in regard to the Chancellor not being able to set out Labour's detailed spending plans for the next 13 months because of... uncertainty over ... 'unemployment'.

There is no uncertainty over one aspect of unemployment - it is continuing to rise.

I do hope that Newsnight do not let this line of questioning slip as Byrne's/ Darlings lies and spin and outright refusal to set out basic budgetry detail in the National Interest are dereliction of duty of the highest order and their comments are not worthy of any MP - never mind a members of HM Government and cabinet.

Byrne and Darling disgrace themselves, their party, their government and their country by their cheapscape insulting lies, spin and antics and should be pressed to explain themeselves and the nation's finances as we all need to know where is the country is and and where it is going. Basic budgetry information over the next year or so is therefore essential and failing to provide this must be in breach of parliamentary rules?

Is Newsnight going to finish what it started on this point as the scheduling of the questions and time allowed for responses was very poor here and this let an apparent serial, compulsive liar 'off the hook'.

NEVER MIND THE 'POLICIES' (BOGUS ANYWAY) CHECK OUT THE PERSONALTIES (#41)

Hello to bloke bloggers! You remember at least one Liam Byrne - in the playground, the pub, the team - there is always one.

The cocky air of assurance, the 'smile'. the thinly UNdisguised sneer. The whole kit of the consummate you-know-what.

Clarke - Mandelson - Burcow - this type is well represented in politics. But when you met yours, did you feel 'this is the man (the sort of man) I want to control my life - represent me to foreigners - be paid with my money'?

THE HELL YOU DID.

Westminster draws its own; Westminster cannot get enough Liam Byrnes; but NOT IN MY NAME.

It is time for an ABSTENTION box on the voting form.

Abstract from latest Matt Tabbi piece in Rolling Stone:

Discuss-

"...Our media — which has always been at best an inadvertent accomplice to these messes — is basically set up to take every revelation about the underlying truth and split it down the middle, feeding half to one side of the political spectrum and one half to the other, where the actual point is then burned up in the useless smoke of a blame game...."

Please remind your editors across the entire 91Èȱ¬, that their efforts should be focused in establishing the truth, not holding the jackets.

British gilts are being sold and suspicions are that the BOE is buying them... because few else will.

Brown? Cameron? The other one? Immaterial. Sovereign debt crisis is coming by the Spring. That will shape the destiny of us all and whoever gets into Number 10, or 11, will find their hands tied by a complete loss in the UK economy.

At least the Icelandics have cod.

NOTA supporters

As you may have noticed I have many criticisms of the party system and the electoral system of First Past The Post. The Representation of the Peoples Act gives me the right to vote on who can represent the constituency in which I live in the House of Commons. Its a right to make a choice of the candidates who pay their deposit and present themselves for election of their own free will.I am free to stand if I dont like what's on offer from the Establishment and I've got £500 and some nominees. First, I do not understand what you say will happen if the NOTA votes are in the majority- apart from giving the Party candidates/Establishment a black-eye. Second, does my right to vote on a representative extend to me having a right to reject all choices and force something else to happen? Would a second ballot be forced, if so, who would stand in the second ballot? Would it be someone from the NOTA party or compulsory stand-ins? How long would this go on for, assuming there are candidates available for a second/third etc. ballot?

The proposed pettion has been accepted by 10 Downing street web team.

You can add you name to the petition as below.



#45

I would settle for giving them 'a black eye' to be honest, at least it would get the underlying and un-analysed level of general disenchantment out in the open, the great part is it costs nothing to do it apart from a bit of ink, they have to produce the ballot papers and count them anyway..so why not?

''I am free to stand if I dont like what's on offer from the Establishment and I've got £500 and some nominees''

I think that statement should read:

''I am free to throw £500 and a lot of time in the bin so that I can be almost utterly ignored by the media and therefore have no chance unless I dress up as a guerilla (or similar)in order to get the news titilation factor on my side... that may get you noticed but it does not get you voted for.''

Interestingly that guy who dressed up as a gurilla and became Mayor of ''where ever it was'' has been the best mayor they have had apparently!!!!

That is however the exception that proves the rule is it not?

#46 Jericoa

Thanks but the addition of NOTA on the ballot will have potentially serious consequences. It could well attract a significant vote. If those votes are in a majority in the constituency someone needs to explain what happens next because those candidates who gain a positive vote would be in a minority and should not be successful, should they? So, whilst it would not cost much to add the NOTA box it could cause electoral havoc and need a new system to accomodate its consequences.

#47

From my perspective a degree of electoral havoc is needed to shake the system up a bit anyway.

I would not worry, a grand total of 3 people has signed up thus far (including me)via the link as above!

It is early days I suppose but hardly an encouraging start..

If it does take off and chaos ensues it was all Barrie's idea anyway..... :)

#48 Nothing wrong with bit of chaos :) !

EXCELLENT POST - TIMELY - APPOSITE (#43)

But for now - futile. However, perhaps the times they are a changin'?

41 continued..

This is really getting to me.

Brown says that 'UK unemployment' will peak at 2.8 million around next summer with a 10% approx increase on current level and Darling and Byrne are now saying that they are unable to present UK government departmental spending estimates for the next 12 months because of uncertainty over 'UK unemployment'.

Why are these crooks running our country?

Somebody above mentioned Matt Taibbi, so to paraphrase:

The first thing you need to know about the UK Government is that it's everywhere. A great vampire squid wrapped around the face of the English people, relentlessly jamming its blood funnel into anything that smells like English freedom.

Paul Mason asks where is the content and substance? Emotional reconnection? Leadership, narrative, credibility?

When we English get our own country back again, politically speaking, then we will have leaders with those attributes.

Kindling, fire-lighters, damp matches?

If you immediately knew that the candle-light was fire, then the meal was cooked a long time ago.

Irwin is right, the markets will decide and will decided around the Sprng/early Summer.

Of course, Irwin could be wrong and all the UK economy needs is Wil Hutton's quick recovery, ever-rising house prices and Public Sector workers spending money in the shops!

Come on Paul, are Wil Hutton and Gordon Brown one and the same person?

51. At 8:22pm on 05 Jan 2010, nautonier wrote:

41 continued..

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Is it that Darling and Byrne do not trust Brown's figure of 2.8 million unemployed and/or do they just assume that he's a serial liar?

Perhaps darling and Byrne are confused by the decimal point in 2.8 million and perhaps they think the real figure should be closer to 28 million?

From last night's programme - Hutton is incredibly naive as the current New Labour party's economic policies are also stoking up the spectre of general price and sector inflation e.g. fuel price inflation through their perennial mismanagement.

There is also another issue which many over-paid and over-heard economic pundits are seemingly not ware aware of - if the public sector gets too large in relation to the private sector - not only does this mean that the private sector cannot fund the public sector but also that it cannot 'strengthen' and 'recover'. There is food for thought!

Some of these comments about the 'public sector' leading the UK to a better economic future are too silly and serious to laugh at - another problem is that idiots like Hutton are even getting air time - what qualifications does someone need in order to appear on Newsnight and spout this kind of nonsense?

51 - until you get your head into the mindset of many in the Public Sector you will live in a World of frustration.

I am convinced that our dear leader is, in reality, a failed 1970s polytechnic lecturer who secretly believes that all self-employed people are spivs like that character 'Walker' from Dad's Army - always on the fiddle, not to be trusted. Add to that what many consider a control freak mentality and you have a worrying combination for anyone let alone a man in charge of an economy.

But such thinking is not rare amongst Public Sector types.

I know of many who work in the Public Sector who genuinely believe that anyone who works in the Private Sector, or who is self-employed, is somehow a failure unable to get a Public Sector job. The sense of entitlement - annual pay rises, wonderful pension, less hours and more holidays, is truly staggering.

Most truly have no comprehension that the Private Sector has to earn hard/real currency in order to pay for their jobs and pensions. They simply have no idea about this - and trying to explain it is like knocking on wood.

Hence why I think that there is no compunction from Ministers to outsource high-tech jobs such as IT and Engineering overseas. Or to allowing in tens of thousands of non-EU workers in IT and Engineering, mostly from India, to undercut British workers by working often for a fifth of what a British worker would in this country.

If you have nothing but contempt for the Private Sector then this is what happens and, before you know it, the country is no longer making things, no longer exporting goods or knowledge, no longer has a high-tech service sector and yet, incredibly, the sense of entitlement in the Public Sector continues.

They just don't get it. If they got it in the first place then perhaps we would not have had the madness of the past decade.

I honestly believe that is British scientists today mastered cold fusion that, by tomorrow, the work and patents would be outsourced to foreign firms in India and elsewhere... and Brown would introduce a special punitive tax aimed solely at British cold fusion engineers... can't trust them you see! Bunch of spivs the lot of them!

# Shireblogger

The system as it stands means that anybody with 500quid can have his/her name to the ballot paper, this cost was introduced to stop flippant entries. (it also has the effect of discriminating against new/small parties and independents)

The introduction of None Of The Above would indeed cause chaos, especially at the first ballot when it was introduced (novelty value) however with the current system the only option of displaying your dissatisfaction with the candidates on offer is to either no vote or spoil your ballot paper.

The problem with this is that 'not voting' as a protest lumps you in with the 'not bothered' section, spoiling the ballot paper lumps you in with the 'incompetent idiot' section.

In reality the chances of NOTA being in the majority are quite slim but in those cases where it happens then the ballot must be re-run but with new candidates (the old candidates having been rejected are now barred)

It would be better to ditch the 500quid deposit and replace it with a petition.

From wikipedia

'Petitions are commonly used in the U.S. to qualify candidates for public office to appear on a ballot; while anyone can be a write-in candidate, a candidate desiring that his or her name appear on printed ballots and other official election materials must gather a certain number of valid signatures from registered voters'

If a candidate gets the required number of signaturies then his/her name goes on the ballot paper. If this was the case then NOTA majorities would indeed be a very rare thing.

Content and substance? Emotional reconnection? Leadership, narrative, credibility?

Perhaps this is what journalists could and should be precipitating. They have the chance to do it.

But let's see how far Newsnight crawls up Mandelson's bum tonight, allowing him to set the interview agenda, call tune. Oh yes Lord Mandelson, oh no, Lord Mandelson. Workers???? no we wont mention such a dirty word, if it doesnt suit you, Lord.

A scorpion was wandering along the bank of the river, wondering how to get to the other side. Suddenly he saw a fox. He asked the fox to take him on his back across the river.

The fox said, "No. If I do that, you'll sting me and I'll drown."

The scorpion assured him, "If I did that, we'd both drown."

So the fox thought about it and finally agreed. So the scorpion climbed up on his back and the fox began to swim. But halfway across the river, the scorpion stung him.

As the poison filled his veins, the fox turned to the scorpion and
said, "Why did you do that? Now you'll drown too."

"I couldn't help it," said the scorpion. "It's my nature."

#53

At least it was good to see that Will was in the minority at the table. I agree with a great deal of what you say about the public sector sense of entitlement and superiority.

I have worked in the private sector all my life but need to deal with the public sector in a very hands on day to day way.

The unchecked (encouraged)rise in job creating buerocracy has become a pandemic in the last few years which sucks out most of the money from worthwhile schemes which can then not be implemented competitively. This growing problem to competitiveness has been masked by the apparent success the boom years created (built on debt) and high employment.

A pretty disastrous combination.

I think this was illustrated best by a project director I was chatting to for a road scheme, 5 years in the planning, 2 years in the designing before finaly being shelved as part of spending cuts.

'' In a war effort we could have built this road from start to finish in 8 months for the same money we have spent to date in not building it''

All the tax payer got for several million pounds in fees was a collection of files on a shelf somewhere in the Highways Agency. It did of course keep a few hundred people busy during the boom years though...

That was not an exageration.

Think of the scale of the wasted opportunity, it is quite sickening really.

Government revenues have been such in recent times that I believe we could have renewed this countries infrastructure and built up a war chest for the bad times. Instead the politicians seeking re-election have created a political geography in terms of public sector employment designed to maintain their power base in key areas.

It is a total failure in leadership brought about by the achitecture of the current political system.

Good to see there are a few more people signing up to the petition now on the No.10 website to try and bring this out.




I have not heard back from my MP yet though.

#56 Thank you. I fully appreciate the argument in favour of a positive abstention. I think you underestimate the strength of feeling that could lead to a NOTA majority in several marginals. From a straw pole down my local I would assess the chances of heavy use of NOTA to be high. So, your campaign could be more fundamental than a right to protest, and I'm not saying that's a bad thing. Hence, you need to follow through on what happens with a successful NOTA majority.

55. At 11:46am on 06 Jan 2010, tawse57 wrote:

51 - until you get your head into the mindset of many in the Public Sector you will live in a World of frustration.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I am ex public sector and I am still angry at the cynical way in which Blair/Brown hijacked the Tory policy in 2005 election in relation to reducing 600,000 civil servants.

Had we forgotten this - How did Labour stay in power on the back of this criminality?

This has left e.g Job Centre Plus seriously under-resourced and resulted in closing a number of offices and which are now being missed with soaring unemployment.

I think that the way to manage the public sector going forward is to partner each department/unit and split its duties/resources with an outside private partner so as to share resources, costs workload and re-tender e.g. every 3 years for the private sector element to introduce competition. This would share ideas and resources and be managed by partly private/public committee with full public accountability/ transparency.

Accountability and transparency is the key for the public sector and some private sector entities - used by the public sector for secrecy e.g. banks.

The split could be 60/40 private:public by no of employees? I'm sure other could have better ideas on this than me but I think there has to be reduction of big government - it has ruined our 'country'

This I think is the 'half-way house' that would work and be good for training e.g unemployed and starting new business.

One thing for sure, is that, currently, many of our central and local government politicians/managers are a 'waste of space' - bereft of everything that is needed to deserve their salary, pensions, expenses, bonuses, perqs bungs and secret and other favours. Underworked and over-paid.

59. At 1:51pm on 06 Jan 2010, Jericoa wrote:

Jericoa/Barrie...I posted your petition as the first post on Peston's blog earlier today...It had top-spot and lasted around 1.5 hours before it was referred to the blogdogs and was erased by the 91Èȱ¬ government censors.

I tried my best!

I have already signed up btw.

No62

Thanks debt juggler, it does seem to have attracted a bit more interest, which is probably down to you.

I must stress it is Barries excellent idea, I just posted it on the Downing Street site while snowed in yesterday.

It would be nice to think it will achieve some momentum and get people talking about what voting for 'non of the above' may mean, which the more I think about that option the more interesting it seems to become. It would be a 'democratic peaceful revolution' in effect if 50 percent of the population actively took that option.

I have to say I dont hold out much hope, but feel better inside for at least trying.

"(first impression: everybody's quite young)"

Do policeman look young to you these days as well, Paul?