stars Nick Helm as an out-of-work musician who forges an unlikely alliance with his 15-year-old nephew.
We spoke to Lilah Vandenburgh about her writing career, working with co-writer Oliver Refson, their writing process and Uncle's development and evolution, including loads of useful advice.
Can you tell us about your background as a writer?
I come from a family of writers and was a big reader as a kid, especially of fantasy, sci-fi and comics, and an obsessive TV and film watcher. I wrote sketch comedy, prose, and did musical theatre and playwriting in my teens and ran a theatre troupe with a group of friends in Dallas, Texas. I got undergrad and grad film degrees and dreamed of pursuing feature directing. But after writing and directing a short, , which did well on the festival circuit, I fell into promo directing and got a bit off track with features.
It was partly out of access and necessity I think, and partly not knowing myself well enough, that I鈥檇 been persuing a career in writing more indie, naturalistic drama which I didn鈥檛 really enjoy. Then when the financial crisis hit, and promo work began to dry up, I did a lot of comfort viewing. I rewatched things like and various incarnations, , and devoured , and , and had the epiphany that what I cared most about was genre storytelling.
So I made a conscious decision to focus more on genre and write for pleasure, in a more fannish mode, and worry less about whether people thought my material was worthy or 鈥済rown up.鈥� And I think my writing became more genuine and actually, more mature as a result.
I think there鈥檚 a lot to be said for structure, especially in genre, and I鈥檓 always looking to deepen my understanding of story beats and how to utilize tropes. I think tropes are great by the way! My writing partner, , writes in a more contemporary, naturalistic style and that intersection of his naturalism and my genre sensibility is how you get .
When did you first start writing with Oliver Refson, was it specifically for Uncle?
Oli and I met at grad film school and have been writing together off and on for over a decade. We鈥檇 collaborated on several comedy screenplays over the years, but Uncle was our first joint TV project. He came up with the initial concept, there鈥檚 a hint of the autobiographical in there, and did the first draft of the pilot. I came on in the rewrite of the pilot and we鈥檝e been writing the show together ever since. It ceased to be autobiographical pretty early on and the concept really expanded. My background in music helped open up the music storylines we explore and knowing both and are musicians, as well as much of the supporting cast, gave us the freedom to push the show in that direction even more.
How does it work writing as a partnership? Do you think it works particularly well for comedy?
YES! I think that鈥檚 why there鈥檚 so many good comedy double acts. If a joke makes us both laugh, it鈥檚 much more likely to make the cut and we鈥檝e developed a shared sense of banter over the years.
We come up with a story concept together and try to have a theme that all the characters are working towards in the episode. Whether that鈥檚 a subject like 鈥渓osing/gaining sex appeal鈥� or 鈥減riorities鈥� or whether it鈥檚 more of a moral lesson, we boil it down to its simplest version and make sure A, B, and sometimes C plots, are connected in some way. Ideally, if there鈥檚 a song in that episode, we want that to relate as well.
It鈥檚 a very American way of working, and helps gives us a framework for an episode. We used to be more chaotic with ploughing into a first draft when the idea was half-cooked and then reworking it, which sometimes required multiple page-one rewrites. Now we break stories properly and outline the beats on a whiteboard before we start and it鈥檚 a lot faster. This is the difference between writing episode 1 and episode 20!
Someone usually writes the first draft, then we swap drafts back and forth, typically we each do two full drafts a piece with a lot of discussion along the way, and come together at the end for a read-through out loud (doing the characters) and an edit pass, cut-down, and joke punch-up that we do together. We then submit for executive notes, followed by channel notes, which both involve rounds of that edit/punch-up/cut-down again.
We like a pacey show and the ability to cut out air or bits that don鈥檛 work, so we purposely write a little long (a typical 28-29 minute ep will be 34-36 A4 pages). The fact Oli and I direct the series helps, because we have a strong idea of how want it to sound and if it doesn鈥檛 work, we can cut it in the edit.
We鈥檙e really tough on ourselves about theme, structure and joke construction. We鈥檒l argue over a word in a sentence or the sound of a new character鈥檚 names. We both have hills we鈥檒l die on.
We do think there鈥檚 a good deal of craft to writing a sitcom or comedy drama. And over time you could say we鈥檝e developed a bit of a dogma about it. We abide by , but often do rule of two, and there鈥檚 one running gag in that we do, seriously, I think 12 times. We just do it to the point where it鈥檚 not funny at all, and then hopefully comes back round to being funny again. We just drove that joke into the ground for our own amusement.
What was the origin of the idea for Uncle? Is it based on a real-life situation or anyone you know?
Oli was living in New York while his siblings had kids and by the time he鈥檇 moved back to London, he realized he really didn鈥檛 know any of his nieces or nephews very well. So the concept of the show is, 鈥�What if this inappropriate uncle and uptight nephew were vaguely aware of each other鈥檚 existence but had no meaningful relationship?鈥� And the show begins the day that relationship begins. Oli鈥檚 obviously not the irresponsible, hot mess that Andy is, but that makes for much better comedy and drama - we think.
Can you describe the development process for Uncle?
Oli sent the script to his agent鈥攚ho instead of giving notes, sent it out immediately. Within a few days about five production companies were interested. We went with who shared our vision for the show. All the channels passed at that point and we thought it was dead. A year went by and our exec producer, , had the idea to see if wanted to attach. Nick responded to the material and that got the interest of at Channel 4 who had commissioned . Uncle鈥檚 first pilot was part of the scheme and got a good response. But Shane left Channel 4 shortly thereafter and none of the 4Funnies got commissioned. So it was dead again.
Months went by. Shane became head of comedy at the 91热爆 and we were asked if we鈥檇 like to take Uncle over to 91热爆 Three. Which seemed like a great fit. But the original format was a commercial 22 minutes and 91热爆 Three needed around 28 minutes.
So we re-wrote and re-filmed the pilot (Nick鈥檚 hair had changed tremendously and Elliot had already grown) and added some scenes and changed some casting.
In retrospect, we can鈥檛 imagine going back to the shorter commercial length, as the added time gives us the chance to explore more dramatic themes and play with pacing.
How would you describe the tone of the show?
There鈥檚 this new term 鈥渟ad-com鈥� floating about and we get compared to other things tonally in this space. We coined the term 鈥淢elanchomedy鈥� to describe the pilot and we like that one too. Comedy drama also works. We want the comedy highs high, but for there to also be pathos and real sadness. And real consequences for a character鈥檚 actions. It really comes to a head in Series Three actually.
There鈥檚 a meditative, tragic undertone to a lot of Uncle. Andy is a depressive, the show starts with a suicide attempt, and we address mental health, addiction and dysfunctional family dynamics in multiple ways, both comedic and dramatic, over the course of the show. We often ask ourselves as writers, 鈥淗ow absolutely heartbreaking can we make this and still technically count as a sitcom?鈥�
Who writes the musical numbers?
Nick Helm writes the songs for the show, which are produced and arranged by Andy Jones. Additionally, composer Matt Simpson, aka Segal, does our score.
Usually we give Nick a prompt in the script, typically just a song title and the genre, with how it needs to fit in thematically with the episode and he takes it from there. I directed all but one of the videos, save one done by Oli, and Oli directs all Nick鈥檚 live/concert style performances in the show, so we have a good sense of what we want visually out of the song ahead of time.
I love all Nick鈥檚 songs, but I think he鈥檚 really outdone himself in Series Three.
How do you make a character that could be unlikeable sympathetic to the audience?
OOh, We talk about this A LOT. I personally think the trick to a sympathetic anti-hero is down to POV and subjectivity. It goes a little bit back to the dogma I was referring to earlier. If you cleave quite strongly to the subjective viewpoint of your character, they can behave badly and the audience will still be forced to identify with them, through their eyes. We鈥檙e complicit in that character鈥檚 actions and often root for them, even if what they鈥檙e after isn鈥檛 a thing they should get. Not only is Andy pretty badly behaved, but Errol can be quite manipulative and passive aggressive as well, even though he acts as Andy鈥檚 conscience.
Anti-heroes are popular at the moment, so on the scale of amoral protagonists, Andy鈥檚 not even that bad. He at least makes an attempt to make moral decisions and gradually, through the course of three series, he鈥檚 actually had some growth. Having the subjective fantasies of the music videos further gets you into Andy鈥檚 headspace, his rich imagination, which gives a window into his soul, and maybe mitigates some of the more awful things he does and says.
More than anything, I think Nick Helm鈥檚 natural charisma and innate sympathetic quality does a lot of heavy-lifting on the likability front.
Do you have particular actors in mind for characters when you write?
We do for some characters and not for others. was our dream Bruce; we knew his work from .
We didn鈥檛 write the leads with Nick, or Elliot in mind. We had to see them to know they were right and they all had such great chemistry with each other. But they inhabit those characters like a glove and over time have helped shape the voices of the characters. After three series, we write much more for the individual actors now because we can hear their voices in our heads.
Sometimes we鈥檝e just had a bit of casting luck. Our executive producer, , suggested for the character Marsh this series. We hadn鈥檛 had him in mind but now can鈥檛 imagine anyone else inhabiting that part. He鈥檚 wonderful.
How has Uncle evolved over the 3 series? What is new for Series 3?
Well, both Andy and Errol have grown up a bit and we wanted their journeys to parallel. As Errol becomes an adolescent, Andy becomes a madolescent and they explore that space together. Errol, now a proper teenage boy, is getting more into the idea of girls and romance and Andy is looking to deepen his friendships with women, something he was told he wasn鈥檛 capable of in series 2, and he鈥檚 looking to stop screwing up his music career.
Also, everyone lives together under one roof now, which makes for some interesting family dynamics. I don鈥檛 want to spoil too much but we鈥檝e also got some really cool music videos, including an animation, great guest cameos, some old faves are back, and there鈥檚 - a fantasy episode!
Do you think the show has changed at all with 91热爆 Three going online?
It鈥檚 exciting what鈥檚 going on in TV at the moment. VOD platforms and more online commissioning has opened up storytelling opportunities and pushed the form forward.
But we鈥檝e actually made a conscious attempt to have it feel the same as it did on terrestrial TV. We鈥檙e aware people watch Uncle in a lot of different formats. On repeats, on Catch Up and 91热爆 iPlayer, as well as iTunes, DVDs and VoD channels in other countries. We want something that works in both digital, online formats and on your standard TV as well. We also hope, if you binge all three series, that thematically and tonally you feel it all hangs together (you might even start to notice a lot of Easter Eggs).
What鈥檚 the most useful advice you鈥檝e been given as a writer?
Don鈥檛 be afraid to let your first draft be bad. A lot of writers are afraid to do what we call a 鈥渧omit draft.鈥� Just heave it all onto the page and don鈥檛 worry about editing yet. It鈥檚 really difficult to think as an editor and idea generator at the same time; they鈥檙e at odds. And writers can get too hung up on perfecting every word from the start. No, fill the page. You won鈥檛 have anything to edit until you put it down. And you can perfect it in later drafts.
Also, a writing habit is great, but don鈥檛 kick yourself if you鈥檙e not a 鈥渨rite every day鈥� type. Some people just can鈥檛 manage, whether it鈥檚 because of work, kids, or health or emotional challenges. Just find a rhythm that works for you.
What are your 3 Desert Island DVDs?
If we鈥檙e talking TV series, I鈥檓 doing boxsets and I鈥檓 going to be extra cheeky and count all the different Star Trek series as one show. I think my others would be Buffy and either , , , or . That was very cheeky. Definitely more than three.