BEN ZAND:Has anybody changed their mind after watching that? How have you changed your mind?
FEMALE ONE:I have defiantly changed my mind and I am so happy because I feel like right now, Kat's got it in the bag. And I'm just glad that the truth has come out and unfortunately guys we have to be honest with ourselves, there are a lot of men who are out there who think that they can have any women that they want and it's just the truth.
FEMALE ONE:When I heard about the text from watching, I was absolutely disgusted and I had at that point it confirmed for me that Ryan was just a disgusting human being and that his intentions were purely sexual from the beginning.
FEMALE TWO:I've actually changed my mind a little bit, I'm not going to lie, I'm starting to see this a bit more as someone who has no game, obviously no respect for boundaries, but he-- at the end of the day, is a guy who's trying it with a girl that he likes. And girls text their mates and I'm-- if anybody denies this your chatting rubbish.
FEMALE TWO:Because girls always text each other and their like, he's mine he just doesn't know it yet, I love him so much but he know it-- he loves me, he just doesn't know it yet. So actually it's not fair that those texts were shown because girls do that as well, but people think they're crazy like "ha, ha, ha, ha" but actually girls can be filth.
FEMALE FOUR:Yeah.
CLAPPING
FEMALE TWO:'When I said girls are filth, I know that girls can talk about boys 'that they're not even with鈥' and what Ryan said, fair enough it was a bit more sexual when he said, "she wants me, she just doesn't know it yet" what's the difference? Just because a girl may speak softer and I know other girls will say something very similar to Ryan, it's still the same thing.
FEMALE THREE:Can you not see it as, he's invested time like-- don鈥檛 get me wrong I agree he shouldn鈥檛 have said that but he's invested his time into this girl, in a way he was鈥 you know, in his head he could be thinking, I'm being a gentleman.
FEMALE THREE:I'm helping her out with work, I'm complementing her, I'm seeing if she's alright being sick. He's done the common courtesy, I'm gonna you know, take her home she's been drinking, she's been sick, yeah you know鈥
FEMALE TWO:I'm going to invite myself up to her room鈥
FEMALE ONE:Excuse my French but I just feel like鈥 I just-- what is being a gentleman about going to work and doing your job? Let's not鈥 excuse his behaviour, he hasn't been a gentleman鈥
FEMALE THREE:I'm not saying he's being a gentleman. I'm saying, the idea in his head and the process he's doing, he may think "I'm being a gentleman."
BEN ZAND:What do you think, you seem pretty shocked during that lot, what was going through your mind?
FEMALE FOUR:I feel like Ryan just said banter to excuse his toxic masculinity in saying that like, he just wanted to tear her down, that was him genuinely having a bad motive and bad intention for Kat and you can see his altera motives from the beginning.
MALE ONE:His problem was that he was trying to pick her up within and only within the confines of work. Which she can't escape from that. If he for example, invited her maybe for a drink, or a meal or a day outside of work and she鈥
FEMALE FOUR:Thank you!
CLAPPING
BEN ZAND:What I'm intrigued about is, any of the men in the room鈥 have you been in a scenario, kind of where you have tried to peruse a relationship where you've sent similar texts, like Ryan has鈥
MALE TWO:Yeah I've said some in the workplace before and she was offended and I said I'm sorry, I shouldn't do that and that was the end of it.
BEN ZAND:So, what were you-- what was your message? What did you鈥
MALE TWO:No, no, no I didn't text, I'll just say it to your face.
BEN ZAND:What did you say?
MALE TWO:I said you look pretty hot and then she took offence to that and I said I'm sorry and then that was that and I ain't going near that.
BEN ZAND:What did she say to you specifically?
MALE TWO:She said, "Don't effing say that" and I was like, fair enough. And she was a woman, bit older than myself so I was like, I'm not going to mess with that, I'll see ya later.
BEN ZAND:Emma, why do you thinkthat's an issue?
FEMALE FIVE:It's the workplace, come on. Your clever mate, you should know these things before you like, just鈥 it's one thing acting on an emotion, but there's like another thing, like it's a very risky scenario and the thing is, you were put into your place immediately. Whereas this guy - Ryan, he's not been. He has acted in this misty, blurred area between work and social.
FEMALE SIX:Hearing the texts made me feel that鈥 Ryan was really objectifying Kat, all he wanted from her was one thing and when he was done with her, from that then that's it, she wasn鈥檛 of any more use to him. That was horrible.
MALE THREE:So when he sent the text message, I looked at that and I thought鈥 he honestly does believe she's trying to play hard to get here and that鈥檚 his excuse to keep like, going on the hunt, cause' it's like he's looking at it as a way from like a predator and she's the prey.
BEN ZAND:'People are still split over whether Ryan has sexually harassed Kat. 'But will that change? 'Another person who's been involved in a sexual harassment case 'has come to share their story.'
BEN ZAND:Hey Helen, very nice to meet you, I'm Ben. 'Helen was working as an actress in a theatre company that works with kids, 'when she experienced problems with her male colleagues.' This is Helen.
ALL: HELLO.
BEN ZAND:We're go and sit on those two chairs.
HELEN:OK.
BEN ZAND:What were some of the things that were happening?
HELEN:They talked about the size of my breasts. They talked about my vagina, quite openly. They鈥 took of a picture of me when I was asleep and graffitied an ejaculating penis on my face put it on Facebook, put it on the companies social media page.
HELEN:Talking about sex鈥 as well, all the time. It just - it's quite bizarre really, like what it does to you. I put up with quite a lot, I guess.
BEN ZAND:What was the most difficult part of it all?
MALE TWO:Umm鈥 I think the fact that yeah, that I felt unable to stand up for myself. I didn鈥檛 really know - I knew it was wrong, my instincts were telling me that this wasn鈥檛 right, but I just didn鈥檛 know what to do about it, that was the hardest thing. It hit me emotionally鈥
MALE TWO:because here's a woman who works with children. Here's a woman who has every intention of鈥 being the best person she can be and鈥 I think she's the most honest representation of women in the UK at the moment and what they have to face.
FEMALE THREE:So the part of Helens story which affected me the most was when she said that she shrugged things off, like the comments鈥 I honestly feel I may have done the same and until hearing someone else say it and who's been through it, I hadn't realised that I had done the same, I had just made excuses for people.
BEN ZAND:'Helen said she felt the company didn鈥檛 take her complaint 'seriously enough. 'So she took the case to an employment tribunal.'
BEN ZAND:What's it actually like to go through an employment tribunal and to have to basically face-off with the harassers, face-off with their barristers?
HELEN:I was put on the spot and completely intimidated by the representative of the company. And I was called a liar, they talked over me, he raised his voice to me, it was very aggressive. He was insinuating that it was wanted, that I had kind of, enjoyed it or didn鈥檛 have a problem with it.
BEN ZAND:'Helen finally won her case 'and was awarded 10 thousand pounds compensation.' Firstly, thank you for sharing your story.
HELEN:You're welcome.
FEMALE FOUR:Would you agree that you know, it's not always about saying no, sometimes you can say no through your behaviour, the way that you act and it shouldn鈥檛 really be happening in the first place.
HELEN:Absolutely. I think this is it like, you don鈥檛 go into a job with the defence mechanisms ready, just in case something happens. And yeah of course your body language, your facial expressions should be enough to warm someone off.
HELEN:I think that when I was saying that I felt, I couldn鈥檛 even be myself anymore because I'm naturally鈥 like, I feel like I'm naturally quite warm and smiley and stuff and then you think, "Am I leading someone on by being just me?"
BEN ZAND:Thank you very much for talking to us. 'So we've heard from two people who've been involved in real life 'sexual harassment cases.' 'And now it's time for the biggest question in Kat and Ryan's story. '"Is this sexual harassment?"'
FEMALE TWO:'I honestly don鈥檛 know. 'I don鈥檛 know what the rules are for sexual harassment in the workplace.' I feel stupid because obviously I'm saying what I think鈥 well actually no I don鈥檛 feel stupid because that鈥檚 what I think but I think it's stupid that I'm obviously talking about this and I don鈥檛 even know if what Ryan did was sexual harassment.
MALE FOUR:I think sexual harassment is when a person imposes themselves sexually onto somebody else, without their consent. However, they have to be getting a form of arousal from it.
FEMALE ONE:I believe staring can be sexual harassment because there is a way you can look at someone innocently, and I believe there's another way you can look at someone with intention.
MALE FIVE:If you're telling the judge that, "He looked at me and he licked his lips." I could have been looking-- I could have been daydreaming, I could have thought my lips were dry - licked my lips, but you can't tell me that鈥檚 sexual harassment.
BEN ZAND:'So it seems pretty obvious at this point that trying to actually define 'sexual harassment is very difficult. 'The whole group seem completely confused, 'it's got pretty heated in there.' So to get a specific legal definition, we've brought in a barrister.
BEN ZAND:Hello Kerry.
KERRY:Hi.
BEN ZAND:How are you doing?
KERRY:Fine, thank you.
BEN ZAND:'Kerry's a barrister with over 20 years' experience 'in employment tribunals. 'She's represented both victims and those accused of sexual harassment.'
BEN ZAND:So this is Kerry guys.
ALL: Hi!
BEN ZAND:It probably makes most sense to start with a definition of sexual harassment, what is sexual harassment?
KERRY:Well sexual harassment is any unwanted conduct that鈥檚 related to sex, that has the purpose or effect to violating someone's dignity. So if the individual intends to violate dignity, you tick the box but also if the individual doesn't intended to violate dignity but the effect is that dignity is violated, that ticks the box as well - so it's either.
KERRY:They both classify as sexual harassment.
BEN ZAND:So we have now seen pretty much everything, he's gone through his tribunal, we've seen his defence, we've seen the prosecution. Given the fact that we've seen the text messages, we know his intent, if we break it down, what is sexual harassment? Is the perfume comments sexual harassment?
KERRY:Yes - the perfume comment is sexual harassment.
RYAN:Nice perfume.
KERRY:So for example, would he say to a man, you've got nice perfume - if not it's more than, not likely, that it's related to sex itself, isn't it? So it definitely could count as harassment, yes.
BEN ZAND:The leaning in too close is that鈥
KERRY:defiantly sexual harassment in this context, yes.
KAT:I was just going back to finish it.
RYAN:Oh, team work innit? Brains and beauty. See ya!
BEN ZAND:Beauty and the brain?
KERRY:Yes, again beauty and the brain - sexual harassment. It's related to her sex, if it has the purpose or effect of violating her dignity. It's the actual effect upon her that counts.
BEN ZAND:Touching her back?
KERRY:Touching the back, that's sexual harassment. Any kind of form of physical contact at work, you're getting yourself into trouble - other than shaking the hand. But putting your hand on someone's shoulder or their back, defiantly would count.
RYAN:Unless?
BEN ZAND:The kiss?
KERRY:Again, providing we could establish it was linked to the work, he was acting within the course of his employment, that's sexual harassment.
BEN ZAND:But then, you know he apologises, he says that he didn't realise it was unwanted, does that make any difference?
KERRY:It makes no difference what so ever, because it's the effect upon the individual that counts. So in terms of the law, all we have to do is show the effect of it upon that individual, so I doesn鈥檛 matter if you intended it or not.
KAT:What's head office doing here?
FEMALE SEVEN:Not sure.
BEN ZAND:And then him essentially calling in head office, is that sexual harassment, despite the fact she wasseemingly underperforming?
KERRY:Yes, that's sexual harassment. If someone treats you less favourably because of it鈥 because you rejected their advances, that again is sexual harassment yep, defiantly.
BEN ZAND:And is it a case that these things individually could be harassment or is it them together, form a case that is essentially harassment as a whole?
KERRY:There can be sexual harassment individually, but if you have a lot of minor incidents together, they might not look like sexual harassment on their own, but when you create the bigger picture - you'd identify it was sexual harassment, yeah.
BEN ZAND:So in conclusion鈥 is pretty much everything he did sexual harassment?
KERRY:Yes, it is.
BEN ZAND:Thank you so much Kerry, it was really good you-- Fantastic.