91Èȱ¬

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18th March 2025

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All – episode 151

Presented by Emma Tracey

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MUSIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Theme music.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello, I’m Emma Tracey, and this is Access All, the 91Èȱ¬â€™s disability and mental health podcast. And this is an emergency episode to give you the lowdown on the planned changes to disability benefits announced by the government today. Now, we’ve known for absolutely ages that the government has wanted to reduce the welfare bill because they feel that it’s rising too quickly. And earlier today the secretary of state for the Department of Work and Pensions, Liz Kendall, set out government planned changes:

LIZ-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Millions of people who could work trapped on benefits, denied the income, hope, dignity and self-respect that we know good work brings. And taxpayers paying millions more on the costs of failure, with spending on working age sickness and disability benefits up 20 billion since the pandemic, set to rise by a further 18 billion by the end of this parliament to £70 billion a year. And it is not like this in most other comparable countries where spending on these benefits since the pandemic is either stable or falling, whilst ours continues to inexorably rise. This is the legacy of 14 years of Tory failure [cheers]. And today, Mr Speaker, we say no more.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý There was plenty of talk of opportunities to get disabled people into work: a right to try scheme which would allow people claiming disability benefits to see how well they would cope with a job without losing their benefits if it doesn’t work out, with an intriguing bit about including goals and aspirations which we are yet to get more details on. Plus £1 billion will go into employment support measures. But alongside those will be £5 billion in savings. Let’s find out who will be impacted by these potential changes and what they’ll mean for disable people’s bank balances. With me to discuss this are 91Èȱ¬ disability correspondent, Nikki Fox.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello, Ems.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’ve also got Arun Veerappan from the Disability Policy Centre, which is a thinktank doing research for disabled people. Hi, Arun.

ARUN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hi there.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And we’ve got two people who get benefits at the moment and who are here to tell us how they think the planned changes will affect them going forward. We’ve got Justine and we’ve got Ellen. Hello ladies.

JUSTINE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hi there.

ELLEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hi.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you so much everyone for joining me at such short notice, because we’ve just received the green paper Pathways to Work, and we’ve just listened to Liz Kendall’s speech as well. So, Nikki, let’s start with you. What benefits did Liz Kendall mention in her speech and who are they for?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay, Emma so we’ve had weeks of speculation, haven’t we, about this. We’ve heard the politics and we’ve discussed the finances and why the government want to reduce the disability benefits bill. And it’s always been focused around two benefits which are very, very separate: there’s the out of work benefit, which used to be called ESA, employment support allowance, it’s now under Universal Credit. And it’s the health top-up of that benefit that’s sort of under the microscope. And it’s the extra cost benefit, PIP, Personal Independence Payment.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, if we start with the out of work benefit first. Now, to get that top-up, as your guests will know, you have to go through the Work Capability Assessment which we know, Em, has been controversial for a very long time. Now, we found out today that the Work Capability Assessment will be scrapped. When it comes to those people who have gone through the Work Capability Assessment and have been classed or viewed or deemed – I don’t ever know what the right word is to use with that – but viewed as not being able to work and struggling to even look for work, the top-up that they get on Universal Credit for being in that group, for want of a better word, that now will stay the same, as far as we know, for existing people on that, but it will be reduced for new claimants. And this is what surprised me actually because I’ve been very clear when I’ve been talking about this that out of work benefits and extra cost benefits are two completely separate benefits. But they’re going to be merging it in some ways, from the sounds of it, that to get the health top-up that will be based on the PIP assessment, which is the extra cost benefit, Personal Independence Payment. Now, that as far as I can tell will be a real concern for people with mental health conditions, neurodiversity, fluctuating physical conditions, because some people don’t get PIP, many people don’t get PIP. So, we need more detail on that because I know that that will be a worry.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The devil will be in the detail, won’t it?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It will.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s something that we’ve not got full clarity on at the moment. And there were some changes announced to Personal Independence Payments, that non-means extra cost benefit. What were they?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We’d heard that the PIP might be frozen. We heard that it may be means tested. And there was this discussion from the previous government actually around vouchers, like giving vouchers.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Instead of money.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Instead of money, exactly. But we know today there will be no freeze, no means testing and no vouchers, so there are at least three definites we’ve got there.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý They were very keen to point those out.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, very keen.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And then went on to talk about how they were going to tighten eligibility.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, exactly. So, when you apply for PIP you have to fill out a form and it’s made up of two components, daily living and mobility. Now, they’re saying that the mobility isn’t going to be impacted, but when it comes to daily living somebody who feels like they need PIP will now have to score a minimum of four points on one of the questions. That is really a tightening of the eligibility to get PIP.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Who does it feel like the government are targeting here with these changes?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý All along the government have said that people that need the help the most, people with the most severe disabilities won’t be impacted. And from her speech today I don’t think anything has changed. Which then means that people with mental health conditions or fluctuating physical conditions, neurodiversity, it feels very much to me like they are the people who will be impacted.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And the government would say that they intend to maintain a safety net for the people who actually really just cannot work and have a disability which means that work is never going to be an option for them. At the same time, while those people the intention is not to assess them regularly, for others assessments will be more regular, more face-to-face, and something that I think we’re very interested in, recorded as standard. How do you think disabled people will feel about that upping the numbers of assessments and how they’re done?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s a tricky one because there might be some people that are just completely opposed to that. I also have spoken to a lot of disabled people who have gone through an assessment and come out the other side, and everything they said in that assessment was not recorded accurately. And so recording in some ways might be beneficial, because again it depends who’s assessing and what’s their background or their credentials to do that. I do imagine there will be some people who will be pleased about that. I’ve come out of an assessment myself and I was told that I could stand and work and make a cup of tea, and I’m like I’m in a wheelchair mate, do you know what I mean.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, for some people this will be a good thing.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Liz Kendall did mention the chance to try, which was this thing that had been talked about over the weekend as well about giving people the chance to try work without losing their benefits or without having to reapply and be reassessed again.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, and I imagine that will help.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And what about the timeline, Nikki, when is this all going to happen? Is it all going to go straight through? When can we see these changes?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Do you know what, Ems, I hate to tell you this, but I don’t know at this stage [laughs]. We’re going to find out more later on today and I’m going to speak to the Minister for Disabled People. But it sounds to me like a lot of these are going to happen quickly. But is a green paper, and a green paper is proposals, isn’t it? So, I imagine it’s not something that’s going to change overnight. There’s time.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, a green paper is like an initial proposal, and then people can consult on it, organisations can fill in the consultation, and then they go back and then they work towards a white paper which is more set.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý There you go.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And then it has to go through parliament.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý There she goes.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Let’s talk to some people, Nikki, who feel like they are going to be impacted by these changes. We’ve got Ellen Clifford. Let’s start with you, Ellen. I know you’re a campaigner and an activist and you work really, really hard with other disabled people. Is it okay to ask about your story, Ellen?

ELLEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, I live with severe and injuring mental distress and I receive Personal Independence Payments, and also I am in the limited capability for work related activity group, but I also work when I can.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý How do you manage with what you receive at the moment and how your benefits play out? Is it working for you? Can you manage?

ELLEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I have a lot of support around me. I can’t always afford essentials, but that’s the case for a lot of people. Research shows that new claimants for Personal Independence Payment need the extra money, not for extra costs, which is what an extra cost benefit is meant to be about, but people increasingly need it because of cost of living; it’s about paying our bills, it’s about food, it’s about the essentials now.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And do you think that there will be an impact on your from what you can get from listening to the speech and maybe having a quick glance at the green paper? I don’t know.

ELLEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The secretary of state, Liz Kendall, can talk about safeguarding and protecting. I don’t see how that’s possible when you’re going to be reducing the number of claimants who can get out of work disability benefits.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The government says that money is tight. The government says that the bill is rising much, much quicker than they would have imagined and they want to change that. So, what do you think will be the outcome?

ELLEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s exactly what the Office of Budget Responsibility said when the work paper of 2023 came out, they said that there will be likely increased costs, not just from more people applying for PIP but also from people appealing the decisions, because obviously that one assessment will count for so much more. And they also said there there’s a possibility of legal challenges against these proposals.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Let me turn to you, Justine, you’ve been waiting patiently there listening to all of our commentary. Can you tell me your story?

JUSTINE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I was born with a reasonably rare genetic condition that affects my connective tissue. So, when I was younger I had some digestive issues, I was in pain all the time but just assumed that everybody else was in pain all the time and that was just life, and I dislocated some. But I was able to work. I also ran a little bit competitively. And then I developed comorbid conditions related to that condition that made me very unwell very, very quickly. And I ended up unable to work for a little while. And since then have eventually been able to get a diagnosis and eventually been able to get treatment. So, I do work part-time now. I was also very fortunate in that I qualified as a teacher before I got so incredibly unwell, and then when I did get unwell was able to do a part-time master’s degree, but to the extent that I was working from bed, I was attending online lectures from hospital wards. It really seems to me, listening to her today that, like you said, mental health and neurodiversity seem like they’re going to get hit hardest. I am physically disabled, I do have an incurable condition and I do work, so I do feel in some ways that I have ended up luckier.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý How do you think the planned changes might impact you? Can you see any part of it that will affect you?

JUSTINE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I was very pleased that mobility won’t change, so I can physically still get to work, so that’s good news for me. My concern is that if on reassessment they reduced my day-to-day living I effectively won’t be able to work anymore.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, if they reduce that element of your Personal Independence Payments you won’t be able to work. And why is that?

JUSTINE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý While I can work, I work as a SEND specialist now, so I do individual tutoring and advocacy work.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Special educational needs and disabilities.

JUSTINE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Also emotional, social and mental health, and sometimes children and young people in residential foster care settings that have tutoring rather than going to school. But the flipside to that is I can’t wash my own hair without the risk of dislocating or fainting, I can’t always prepare food, again because of the risk of dislocation and because the amount of fatigue and pain caused by my condition. So, if they scrap that first of all my energy, which is limited, will go on day-to-day living, so potentially I wouldn’t be able to work. And secondly, I would end up injured and ill a lot more than I currently am because of an increase in faint seizures and dislocations. To me it seems, from my perspective, counterproductive because if they reduce or cut that level of PIP first of all the NHS will be spending more money on me because I’ll be ill and injured more frequently; and secondly, I probably won’t be able to work, certainly won’t be able to work as much, and then would have to take other benefits to compensate for that. So, from my perspective it seems counterproductive. And I’m also worried because I don’t have a mental health condition, I’m quite lucky that my mental health is stable, but I do think that for me if I couldn’t work, and in fact for about a year when I couldn’t work my mood became very low. And that’s a worry to me. I feel like I do need work.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I just want to stop you there, Justine, because Nikki is really busy today and has lots of news outlets to cover and she’s leaving us. So, I just want to say thank you so much, Nikki, for your insight and your commentary. And I’m sure we’ll be hearing a lot more from you on the various news over the next few days. Thanks, Nikki.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ah, thank you, Emma. Thanks everyone.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And good luck with the rest of it.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Right, stay with me, Justine and Ellen, though if you can. I’m just going to chat now to Arun Veerappan from the Disability Policy Centre. Hi, Arun, thank you for waiting here patiently. You, Arun, have been doing a lot of research around previous attempts at reform of the benefits system and looking at what might happen this time, and what that might mean for people. But what do you think could change Liz Kendall’s timeframe? You’ve looked at legal challenges in the past, how do they relate to what’s happening here? And do you think there will be some flies in the ointment going forward?

ARUN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, I think it’s really important to raise this issue of legal challenge. In 2016 a tribunal ruled that people experiencing psychological distress when travelling should qualify for enhanced mobility components of PIP. The government disagreed, said that was not their intention, and tried to reverse the decision. It was struck down as discriminatory and unlawful. So, it’s worth bearing in mind that’s probably why they’ve not touched mobility today. And it’s also worth recognising that the government can’t just will this into existence. And today the government has also talked about having a consultation process, but it’s really important that this consultation process actually and meaningfully engage disabled people.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s interesting because, Arun, you’ve done some research around whether cuts like those announced today work in terms of bringing more money in for the government. What did you find out about whether cuts to disability benefits have worked in the past and will work in the future?

ARUN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, there’s absolutely no evidence that cutting benefits by tightening eligibility actually works. It seems the government is once again ignoring this. Lots of the language today talked about modernising or targeting support; that’s exactly the same phrasing to justify PIP’s introduction. And PIP was aimed to exclude 600,000 people and save 20% compared to the DLA. In practice the OBR found less than 10% of the savings actually materialised.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Interesting. So, what should they be doing instead then, Arun, to support disabled people in life and into work?

ARUN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We talked about this right at the start, and it’s the way in which we frame disability benefits. If we frame it as the Prime Minister did a year ago, calling it a bulging bill, we think about disability as something that’s without value, and that becomes the goal to try and cut it to nothing. We don’t talk about anything else like that; we don’t look at NHS demand or school demand in the same way, we just look at value rather than cost. And if we ask what is the value this system provides for disabled people and where it falls short and how we can deliver that we’re going to get better solutions. Rather than focusing on how many points you score in one part of your PIP application or another, we’d make sure that when you have the PIP assessment you have the right appliances and aids to support you at the same time as well to make sure that PIP actually covers your actual cost. That would help disabled people become more independent and be able to withstand things, like the cost of living crisis in the first place, which just hasn’t gone away. And it would focus on how to support disabled people into suitable work, because employers don’t have the incentives to create enough flexible and part-time jobs as well. And we know that if we close the employment gap, which costs the Treasury about £38 billion a year, we’d see improvements for disabled people and taxpayers too.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Before we go can I just ask all of you quickly what is your takeaway from today? Starting with you, Arun?

ARUN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Unfortunately it’s a bit more of the same. The government is continuing its track. I think my concern is whether this consultation in the future is really going to hold anything meaningful, or it’s just another way to cut costs.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay. Ellen?

ELLEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That there’s going to be lots of people out there who are very frightened about the future, and just to give people hope. Because like Arun says, things haven’t worked in the past when governments have tried to do this again and again. So, we need to make people realise that we can fight back and there is hope in the future.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s a really, really good point for people to not feel so anxious, because lots of this is wrapped up in a green paper which is open to consultation etc. etc. Justine, what’s your takeaway?

JUSTINE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý One thing that really struck me from what she said was they want more people off sickness benefits and in work. She didn’t say we want fewer people to be sick. From my perspective, as a SEND specialist and as somebody who’s medically complex, if they overhaul the education system and the NHS they will naturally, from my perspective, save money. I feel like they’ve gone to the effect but they haven’t gone to the cause.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, hopefully we can get someone from the government on to talk about this a bit more with us over the next few weeks. What is your takeaway, listener? Tell me. I know you will have something to say about this. I know you will want to chat about it, to give your opinion, to suggest things. Please do that. I love to hear your voice. You can send me a voice note on 0330 123 9480 on WhatsApp. You can find us on social media @91Èȱ¬AccessAll, on Instagram and X. Or you can email us accessall@bbc.co.uk. Arun Veerappan, Ellen Clifford, Justine and Nikki Fox, who had to leave earlier, thank you so much for speaking to me, the day of Liz Kendall’s speech on disability benefit planned changes.Ìý Thank you.

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