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26th June 2024

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All – Election episode 03

Presented by Emma Tracey

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EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello, I’m Emma Tracey and this is the 91Èȱ¬â€™s weekly disability and mental health podcast. As part of Access All’s General Election coverage we have invited representatives from the UK’s seven main political parties to take part over several episodes. We’ve been putting your questions and your concerns to them, and we’ve been exploring their policies around disability and mental health. This episode is all about the Liberal Democrats and the Scottish National Party. First we speak to Ed Davey, leader of the Liberal Democrats.

MUSIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Theme music.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hi, Ed.

ED-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hi there, hi Emma.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, Ed, we have some questions that we’re asking all the parties that we’re speaking to. And the first one is, you have 45 seconds now to tell us about you.

ED-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, I’m a dad, father of two wonderful children, and my family keep me grounded. I’ve got a lovely boy, John, who’s 16, who’s got some severe disabilities. He’s got an undiagnosed neurological condition which means he can’t walk or talk, so that means he needs 24/7 care, so we’ve done a lot on caring. But it’s about making him as independent as he can be, but he’s a key part of my life and we have a wonderful relationship and it's great. What it’s meant is I see the world differently I think from before. Although I’d had many constituents who I campaigned for on disability issues, being a dad of a disabled young man is different and you see challenges in a different way.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay, you’re done. Thank you, Ed, that’s really helpful. Now, the next question we’re asking all the parties is, how many disabled candidates are the Liberal Democrats fielding this time?

ED-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I wish I knew the answer to that. I’m sorry I don’t. I know we’ve got a few who’ve got a number of disabilities. Let me give you one example: our candidate in Torbay in Devon, Steve Darling, he has very poor sight, he has a guide dog, very poor vision, a little bit of peripheral vision but basically he can’t see. So, he’s a candidate who we hope we can get into parliament.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The other question we’re asking all the parties is has your manifesto been produced in easy read and other formats and did it happen at the same time as your regular format manifesto?

ED-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, it’s mainly been produced online, so the answer is yes, we’ve really tried to make it as accessible as possible. When we set out we said, look, most people don’t buy manifestos in a newsagents anymore, they get them online, so we’ve got an easy read version online. And hopefully it comes up to muster. We can always do better, so if people are having problems please let us know. We’re very keen that anyone can access it whatever their disability.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay, thank you. Now we’re going to talk about care. And lots of people would say that the social care system is in crisis. I’ve had disabled people tell me over the last couple of years on this podcast that they have a care package but they can’t get carers. I’ve got other disabled people saying that they can’t save any money because if they do they will have to pay for their care, so that means they can’t get on the property ladder, they can’t go on holiday. We had one guy say he had to pay for his carer to go on holiday because he’d saved up to go on the holiday. What would you do to try and fix this massive issue?

ED-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, we’ve put social care alongside the health service at the centre of our manifesto actually. And a big part of that is our idea of introducing free personal care so that provision is based on need, not ability to pay. Hopefully that will help a lot of disabled people. But as you were saying in your introduction to this question, there’s a lot of people who can’t get carers because those carers aren’t there. So, you have to have a social care workforce plan, and you need to value carers more, both financially, so we’re campaigning for a higher carer’s minimum wage. There’s a new minimum wage for carers at £2 an hour above the national minimum wage to try to attract more people into the profession. We want to establish a Royal College of Care Workers so we can improve recognition and career progression. And it’s those sorts of measures that I think would mean that we get more people into care and so that carers would be there. So, it’s partly making it more affordable, and it’s partly making sure there are people in the profession.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But how would you fund that? That sounds quite expensive and already the bill is quite high; how would you fund it?

ED-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Our whole health and care package is about £9 billion. That’s broken down into things that are really NHS and some that are care. So, let me focus on the care package. The personal care programme we’ve costed at £2.7 billion, taking into account some money that’s in the system for capping care costs. But also we've calculated about £1 billion for our higher wage policy. So, about £3.7 billion, maybe a bit more than that, about £4 billion. And we’re going to pay for that by reversing the tax cuts that the Conservatives have given to the big banks. So, the big banks have had since 2016 some tax cuts, and if you reverse those back to what it was in 2016 you raise £4.3 billion. So, that would pay for our care plan. And so free personal care and a higher carer’s minimum wage are probably our two biggest ones.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And what are health and social care budgets that you’re looking to trial? Because obviously people have personal budgets just now, but disabled people are always looking for more autonomy and trying to be more independent, or some are, the ones who want to be. What would that look like?

ED-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, there’s a whole set of different issues there. It can be more independent in work where we need to make sure that there’s more rights for people in work. It may be helping them get more care. Let me give you another example: this is coming out of our welfare budget, but where we’re wanting unpaid carers to get a fair deal, because a lot of disabled people rely on family members for some of their care.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But are we specifically talking about the budget? You mentioned in your manifesto wanting to trial health and social care budgets.

ED-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh yeah, sorry.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And maybe it’s something you don’t know as much about.

ED-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Sorry, I was at cross purposes there. Yeah, health and care budgets are really important for giving people independence. I mean, in the case of my own son, but I would say this about other constituents, we find that if we get the money in a budget, and we’re held to account for that budget, we can get it more flexible. If we’re provided with a care directly we have to dance to the tune of whoever is providing it. And that’s just not really fair. If you want to give people more independence it is better to make sure that those health and care budgets are given to either the individual or, if they need an advocate, family member or elsewhere to that support person.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s giving people more choice?

ED-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, absolutely.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Can we talk now about unpaid carers, because you mentioned unpaid carers there? Half of claimants have a family income of £21,000, and seven in ten of those who are not in paid work say that they’re not in paid work because of a carer responsibility. It’s been in the news a lot lately, there have been lots of articles about unpaid carers getting a rough deal. What would you do to help them, to help their lives be a bit easier? I mean, this is something you really do understand.

ED-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, I do [laughs], partly through my constituents but also having been a carer most of my life. I was a young carer because my dad died when I was four and my mum was terminally ill from when I was 12 to 15 when she died; then my nan and granddad looked after me, and I looked after my nana when she was frail; and now I have a disabled son. So, I’ve done a lot of carer and I’m still a carer now [laughs] with my wife. It is tough. It affects your ability to earn money. We’re very fortunate, so it’s not really for people like me. But I know lots of people who really struggle financially as a result of their disabilities and their caring responsibilities.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, what would we do? We would increase the Carer’s Allowance significantly, starting off with £20 a week, we’d expand eligibility for it. The earnings limit would have to go up significantly. What we’ve seen in the scandal recently is that when people get to the earnings limit it’s a cliff edge, and so the DWP is clawing back Carer’s Allowance in huge amounts from people who’ve got no money. And I think that’s wrong. I think that should be stopped. I think we should frankly write off all that because the system is wrong. We should get rid of the cliff edge and completely reform Carer’s Allowance.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That sounds really expensive as well, Ed. How would you fund that?

ED-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s just over £1 billion. It’s part of our overall welfare package. I think it’s very affordable. I should basically, Emma, say that we’ve published our costed manifesto; it’s got all these policies in, like the carers and the free personal care and the minimum wage that we described, a tax rise we’d do for that with reversing the tax cut on banks. But overall we’ve got a whole set of different ideas, whether it’s, for example, reforming capital gains so billionaires don’t pay a lower tax than people who are in work; we’ve got a tax on the oil and gas companies and on the social media companies. So, there are a number of corporates who are doing really, really well and some billionaires doing well, and we think ordinary people can’t afford higher taxes. The cost of living tax has already gone up massively under the Conservatives. But we do need the money to pay for things like increasing Carer’s Allowance. So, that’s what we’re proposing.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ed, we’ve had a question in from someone called Amanda Langley. We’ve been asking our listeners to tell us what they want to know coming up to this General Election, to tell us what they want us to focus on. Amanda asks, ‘Will the next government treat disabled people with care and compassion?’ And she talks about Personal Independence Payments and the consultation that the government launched just before the General Election was called, and she says, ‘Would you continue with that?’.

ED-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m grateful, Amanda, for that question. What I would say about Personal Independence Payments is the assessment process needs to be changed. That’s the key thing for me. It’s not transparent, and there are too many unnecessary reassessments, and some of them are done in an informal way and I don’t think that’s fair to people. They’re not given the support during those assessments that people need, and they’re not being done in a robust way.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I should put my cards on the table: my son has just moved from Disability Living Allowance to PIP because he turned 16, and my wife had to fill out the huge form. What I’m worried about, and I see this with my constituents, is the reassessments. In so many cases I deal with when I’m representing constituents who are potentially facing a tribunal is their condition hasn’t changed, if anything it’s got worse, it was never going to get any better; and I don’t see why people’s time is wasted. And they get very anxious and alarmed by the reassessment.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, what would you do differently? The government’s aim is to find out what people need to maybe change how the payments are made, change how assessments are done. Would you continue with the process that they have started in terms of, like, the consultation is ongoing just now so that has to happen anyway? Or would you just go back to the drawing board and do things in a totally different way?

ED-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What we would need to do I think is find a way where if people could be entitled to more help that that is done in a way which doesn’t undermine the help they’re already getting. I think if people knew that they were getting assessed in a way which would increase their support they’re going to be less worried about that. Now, there may be some people who need to be reassessed; I’m not saying no one would need to be reassessed. But I’ve actually got quite cross when I’ve seen constituents who immediately it’s obvious, it’s self-evident that their condition wasn’t going to have improved, and yet the way that they are dealt with by the DWP and the authorities and these people who carry out these assessments is as if, you know, we’re going to check on you to see whether you’ve suddenly miraculously recovered. That shouldn’t be the culture, it shouldn’t be the approach. There’s no reason why you couldn’t receive a letter to say, ‘We’re going to keep your Personal Independence Payment as it is, but we do want to see whether or not you need any more help, and we’re happy to assess you for that on that basis’. You know if it was that sort of culture [laughs] I think it would be transformative.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Can we talk about mental health for a minute? Another service that’s massively, massively overstretched at the moment. And one of the things that you said that you would do in your manifesto, should you be re-elected, is to stop people with learning disabilities and autistic people being kept in mental health hospitals when they should be in the community. Now, we had a mum whose daughter had been in hospital for years, when everybody knew she should be in the community, and would be able to be if everything was in place for her. It’s a very costly process, you say that. How would you reverse that? How would you stop people being put in mental health hospitals when they shouldn’t be?

ED-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think you would need much better investment in community mental health services. I’ve been shocked that the services are just not good enough. And if I would say one aspect of a health service – I mean, there’s a number we want to reform – but one of them that needs most reform is probably mental health. And we’ve tried to do it, tried to make sure mental health is treated on parity with physical health, but the services aren’t there. And I particularly think community mental health services aren’t there. If you can help in the community, where frankly it’s cheaper to do so, you can make a real, real difference. And I think prevention is so key. We’ve talked about mental health professionals in schools, in primary and secondary schools; we’ve talked about walk-in hubs for young people who are struggling with their mental health; we’ve talked about regular check-ups for people at key points in their lives, sometimes when they retire people have mental health problems. To be honest it’s more cost effective.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ed Davey you’ve been with us for around 15 minutes. Can you tell me in summary what the Liberal Democrats would offer disabled people if they were elected into government after 4th July?

ED-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, I hope a complete change of the way we think about disabled people, both making sure that they get more support, but also there are many disabled people who can offer huge amounts and want to, want to work, want to be part of the community in different ways. The joy I get from my son when he's able to be more independent on something, and I see disabled people when they are enabled to be more independent to do things, it’s transformative for them, but actually it means that the wider society benefits too. I just think you’ve got to take a much more positive, affirmative approach.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ed Davey, thank you for joining me.

ED-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you so much to Ed Davey for talking to me. Now, listening to that interview with Ed Davey from the Liberal Democrats was Kate Lamble. Kate’s from More or Less, our sister podcast which aims to make sense of the numbers around us. She’s heard that interview and she’s been looking into how it all adds up:

KATE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, Ed Davey mentioned there one of the central Liberal Democrat pledges this election: that they plan to provide free personal care by spending £2.7 billion a year by 2028/29 on top of existing plans. Now, that sounds like a lot. But researchers at the Health Foundation have previously estimated such a policy would cost more than twice as much. And that’s why Ed Davey added a caveat there that they were taking into account other money which is in the system for capping care. Now, what he’s referring to here is a previous delayed plan to introduce a lifetime cap on personal care of £86,000. That though doesn’t exist yet. It’s due to be introduced next year. But that hasn’t stopped the Lib Dems; they are using it as a building block for their proposed upgrade, and have suggested it’ll provide £3.6 billion a year towards their plans. Now, the Conservatives are still committed to this cap in their current manifesto. But there is another problem here: the Institute for Fiscal Studies say the funding which was previously set aside for this has already been eaten up and absorbed into paying for existing care services. And the Conservatives haven’t set out any additional funding to pay for their cap. So, they need to explain how they’re going to pay for it, and I’m afraid so do the Lib Dems. Despite what Ed Davey says, this isn’t extra money sloshing about in the system. They seem to have built a pledge upon a pledge almost like a house of sand.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thanks to Kate Lamble there for her analysis. And Kate will be back after this interview with Marion Fellows, disability spokesperson from the Scottish National Party.

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EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Marion Fellows, thank you for joining me on Access All.

MARION-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý My pleasure, my pleasure indeed.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Marion, there’s a few questions that we are asking all the party representatives that we’ve been speaking to, and the first one of those is, you’ve got 45 seconds, Marion, to tell us about you.

MARION-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, where do I start? I’m a mother, a granny. I became disability spokesperson about four or five years ago, and since then it’s become a real passion; though sometimes I think, why am I doing this, because I’m able-bodied, and all I can really do is be empathetic. But it has become a huge part of my life and I’m very passionate about making sure that disabled people get all their rights and that they are treated equitably.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Marion, how many disabled candidates has the Scottish National Party got standing?

MARION-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I don’t know is the honest answer. If they haven’t declared I’m not going to out them.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s fair enough, Marion. Research from the Disability Policy Centre says that they found two disabled candidates from the Scottish National Party. But obviously, as you say, not everybody discloses.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, in terms of your manifesto, Marion, is it available in different formats like easy read? And did that happen at the same time as your regular manifesto came out?

MARION-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think so. Generally things are put in appropriate formats. The SNP is very keen, especially on things like signers and so on as well, whenever there’s any broadcasts or anything done.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, it was very stark during that the pandemic that the SNP always had a BSL interpreter at the briefings. Just to say that the easy read version for people with learning disabilities is not available at the time of this recording.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Interestingly, the SNP manifesto has only one sentence specifically on disabled people and carers, both of those things. Now, would you say that’s enough to address all the complex problems and barriers that face disabled people in Scotland just now?

MARION-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No, it definitely isn’t. But the whole thrust of what’s been said is to do, not just for disabled people, but the Scottish social security system I think is testament to the SNP’s endeavours for disabled people. Because what we’ve done is taken what’s a very cruel DWP system and actually turned it round to treat people with dignity, fairness and respect, and to make sure that people get help in applying for the Adult Disability Payment, for example, Child Disability Payment and the Carer’s Supplement. Because we are very keen that people know what they can have and making sure that they get it. So, that’s where I think the SNP scores very highly.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But one sentence though, Marion, to be fair is not a lot. A lot of the other manifestos have quite a lot about disability in them, and we were surprised to just see that one sentence. I will go on to talk about the Scottish Adult Disability Payment in a minute.

MARION-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Some of the things that we’ve been calling for over the years, you can’t pack everything into a manifesto. And I do realise that that may appear as though disabled people aren’t being thought of but that’s not, definitely not the case. So, the kinds of things that we’ve been calling for at Westminster, some of the things that other parties are calling for need to be devolved to England and Wales and Northern Ireland, whereas in Scotland we already have some of the powers, but not nearly enough to make life really better.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, you have been standing up in Westminster when you were there before the election and talking about the support the Scottish National Party has for scrapping proposed punitive, as you call it, welfare reforms. How would you continue to lobby for that change if you were elected?

MARION-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, I think my voice has been heard quite a bit. I think also when we were third party I had quarterly meetings with the relevant minister, I kept in touch with what was going on in Scotland, and I kept banging the drum. Now, I know that’s absolutely no help in many ways, but it means that disability rights and actions that are required to help disabled people right across the UK are never just set aside if someone like me is always up on their feet shouting about them. I mean, I’ve worked closely with lots of different disability organisations and it’s always been strange to me that whenever the disability minister turns up I’m there as well, because I think she needs to hear the lived experience of disabled people, and that’s not always what comes down through DWP. They’re very good at talking to some people, but not actually taking into account all the lived experiences that would really help make effective and good working relationships and would actually help disabled people. In Scotland we very seldom do anything that…a consultation always includes the right organisations that represent and also individuals in the disabled community.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well we asked our audience for questions and what they wanted to talk about coming up to the General Election. We specifically asked as well about the Scottish National Party. And Yale got in touch on X and said that they didn’t feel seen by the Scottish National Party, and they said that the Adults Disability Payment took absolute years and hasn’t improved the situation for them.

MARION-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The delays were simply because [ironic laugh] I think because people were being encouraged to apply, people who had given up trying to apply for PIP. And I think to be perfectly reasonable you’re right, there were delays; it was because of the volume that we got applying in Scotland simply because it was easier, they were given help.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But were you not ready for that? Did you not expect that though?

MARION-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, you can only go with the idea of what was there already, and because so many people had switched off, and I suppose because we did such a good job of advertising the disability payments that people in Scotland could now directly apply for, yes we were caught in the hop, absolutely, we’d agree with that. But measures have been put in place and it’s nothing like as bad now as it was; in fact it’s much, much improved. And also there’s often in Scotland people come to your home to help you apply, so that slows things down a bit.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I mean, scrapping the welfare reforms, various things that we’ve mentioned already, they cost a lot of money. And one of the revenue raisers the SNP has put forward is rejoining the EU.

MARION-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Which would it be fair to say that’s unlikely to happen? So, where else would money come from to help disabled people in Scotland?

MARION-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, the Scottish government has already raised £1.5 billion extra from what we get from the UK government in the block grant through a progressive tax system where people who earn less pay less, and people who earn more pay more. We also fund free prescriptions; we’ve introduced a child payment for impoverished families where 100,000 children have been lifted out of poverty because of that action. So, we look at benefits as something people are entitled to and they should get. And we use a progressive tax system to raise additional funds for that.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Another thing that the SNP has promised is to try and halt the DWP repayment demands…

MARION-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Sighs]

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý …on people who get carer allowance, something that [laughs] you made a noise when I talked about that because it’s something that’s been all over the news and it’s hit people hard, it’s hard for people to understand. How would you do that? It was a big thing to do.

MARION-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It is a big thing to do. I work with people, I mean I would work with Sir Ed Davey who’s been championing this for quite a long while. The only way to get anything done in the UK parliament if you are not in power is to work with other parties and to push the agenda forward. Which is exactly what happened with Post Office Horizon issues: there was now a Tory peer, then a Tory MP, and a Labour MP that I worked with very closely in another role as chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on post offices, and that’s the way forward.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, you have some experience of…

MARION-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, oh yes.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý …lobbying on a big scandal or a big, big issue?

MARION-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, I do.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Can we talk about social care? Because social care is said to be free in Scotland for those who need it; however we hear about the fact that the thresholds have gone up for people who apply for care and maybe less get it than they used to because local authorities aren’t getting the money that they need, and then you might get a care package but it doesn’t pay enough for the hours that you need in terms of personal care. Have you got any plans for changing or modifying the system in the next few years?

MARION-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Some of the change will have to come through money that we raise ourselves in the tax regime we have in Scotland. But actually the real issue is to make sure that whoever’s the next government starts to spend money for public projects and things like paying better benefits. I mean, we’ve got a 40-year low in payments and yet we’ve got a 40-year high inflation scheme. So, we really need to get a UK government, because the Scottish government can only raise so much money on its own; the majority of its money comes from the block grant. So, until the UK government starts spending on issues like disability payments, stops hounding people with disabilities and actually recognises the valuable contribution they make and can make to society. There are many, many disabled people want to work, many can’t; the ones who can’t should be paid at least the living wage, and that’s not happening.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But there isn’t free social care in other parts of the UK for everybody, and there is in Scotland. Is that the problem, is it maybe too much to ask?

MARION-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý In Scotland we want to look after our citizens, we want to make life better for them. And with the limited powers we have and the limited budgets we have we’re trying to do that. In fact we’re quite successful at it. But there comes a limit when inflation was running as high as it was over the last year, the money we got from the UK government is worth less than it would have been had we not had high inflation. So, it really does restrict what the Scottish government can do. But in spite of huge restrictions we are absolutely determined to continue to treat all people with dignity, fairness and respect.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Another thing that’s really, really important to our audience is housing. We’ve heard many, many stories in recent times about people in very unsuitable housing, the lack of accessible housing, including Scottish stories, quite big Scottish stories. There’s nothing specifically about accessible housing in the SNP manifesto. Why? And what will you do to help sort out the housing situation?

MARION-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, well the Scottish government has built more houses per head of population than anywhere else in the UK. There are obviously improvements that could be made. Nobody’s sitting on their laurels and saying in Scotland we’ve got it all right. I mean, the number of new houses that are being built here far outweighs what’s happening in the rest of the UK.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And are they accessible?

MARION-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Not all of them are accessible. I couldn’t off the top of my head tell you what percentage are, but most of them are built in such a way that the doors are wide enough, there’s ramps, there’s all of that. Now, not everybody needs that, but some people need more than that, so then adaptations can take place.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Marion, you’ve been with us for 15 minutes now. In summary, what are the SNP offering Scottish voters on 4th July?

MARION-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We’re offering to continue with the work that we’ve done, especially for disabled people. We’re calling for full powers over social security and employment, because that would mean that we could do work that would help stop the Work Capability Assessment changes, Personal Independence Payment reforms. I’m so sad that my bill for a social energy tariff died the day the election was announced, it wasn’t included. And these sorts of issues are the issues that the SNP will fight for at Westminster to improve the lives of disabled people across the UK.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Marion Fellows from the Scottish National Party, thank you so much for joining me on Access All.

MARION-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you for having me.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Listening to that interview with Marion Fellows, the disability spokesperson from the Scottish National Party was Kate Lamble. Kate’s from our sister podcast, More or Less, which tries to make sense of the numbers around us. Kate’s heard the interview and she’s been looking into how it all adds up:

KATE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Marion Fellows spoke there about the SNP’s record, and she mentioned 100,000 children have been lifted out of poverty due to the Scottish Child Payment. So, this claim comes from a Scottish government report which came out in February. It uses modelling to predict the future impact of policies and it compares that to what it thinks would have happened without them, and the gap between the two it claims would have been the number of children kept out of poverty. However, we have to keep a couple of things in mind here. Firstly, the report itself knows that this includes lots of assumptions and simplifications, so it says the exact numbers should all be treated with a bit of caution. And secondly, while the report predicts Scottish government policies as a whole will keep 100,000 children out of relative poverty in 2024/25, the Scottish Child Payment is a smaller part of this, predicted to keep 60,000 children out of relative poverty this current year. And there are different ways of measuring poverty. So, relative poverty compares household income after housing costs to the median, a type of average income that year. Less than 60% of the median means the household is in relative poverty. Absolute poverty looks at the same statistic but compares it to the UK median income in 2010/11. And in the model for both what will happen with or without these policies the absolute poverty rate rises between 2023/24, and 2024/25. The report says this is driven in part by the discontinuation of UK government cost of living payments.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you there to Kate Lamble, Marion Fellows from the Scottish National Party for talking to me, and also thanks to Ed Davey, leader of the Liberal Democrats. Now, already on your Access All feed we’ve got interviews with the Labour Party and the Conservative Party, and still to come is an episode with interviews with Plaid Cymru and with the Green Party. We’ll also have analysis of the Reform UK manifesto with 91Èȱ¬ political correspondent David Cornock. Reform UK were unable to put forward somebody for an interview.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, stay tuned and please get in touch with us in all the usual ways. You can email accessall@bbc.co.uk, and you can find us on social media, we’re on Instagram and X @91Èȱ¬AccessAll.

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