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17th March 2023

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All 鈥� Episode 44

Presented by Emma Tracey

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EMMA-听 听 听 听 听It鈥檚 a bit weird this week, I鈥檓 not going to lie. I鈥檓 on my own. Poor Nikki鈥檚 not well at all. I really need something or someone to bounce off for this bit of the show. I need a bit of a tune to dance to maybe or something like that. [Music] Oh yeah. Can you just hear the little tones of the Blue Peter theme tune there? It鈥檚 almost, almost unrecognisable but not quite. We are having the new Blue Peter presenter, Abby Cook, on the show this week. She鈥檚 disabled, she鈥檚 young, she鈥檚 Scottish, she鈥檚 brilliant; I can鈥檛 wait to speak to her. We鈥檙e going to talk about the Christine McGuiness autism documentary, really important documentary. And we鈥檙e going to speak to Tom Pursglove, minister for disabled people, about the budget announcements this week. Right, let鈥檚 get on with the show.

MUSIC-听 听 听 听 听Theme music.

EMMA-听 听 听 听 听This is Access All, the 91热爆鈥檚 disability and mental health podcast, with me, Emma Tracey, in our London studio. Thanks for listening. And please tell your friends about us, get them to subscribe on 91热爆 Sounds or wherever they get their podcasts from. You can talk back to us, tell us stuff. We鈥檒l be giving you our contact details later in the podcast.

听 听 听 听 听 听 听 听 听 听 听 听On Wednesday Jeremy Hunt revealed his budget and there鈥檚 still lots of fallout and questions being asked in terms of what鈥檚 been planned for disabled people around employment and benefits. I went along to Talking Therapies in Tower Hamlets before the full details were published, to speak to the minister for disabled people, Tom Pursglove.

听 听 听 听 听 听 听 听 听 听 听 听[Interview] Tom, it鈥檚 good to see you again. We鈥檙e here to talk about the health and disability white paper. What have you announced?

TOM-听 听 听 听 听 听 听The sort of key element of structural reform is that we will be removing the work capability assessment, which is something that for a long time has been a topic of debate, and there鈥檚 a lot of support for doing that, and replacing the current UC LCWRA element and replacing that with a UC health element. And that element will be awarded to people who are receiving the UC standard allowance, and any element of PIP. So, this is a significant structural change that we鈥檙e seeing that removes that work disincentive, ensures that if a particular role doesn鈥檛 work out for any reason that people鈥檚 benefit entitlement isn鈥檛 then altered and they鈥檙e able to then go back to that support as they had previously.

EMMA-听 听 听 听 听So, you just mentioned PIP, personal independence payment, which currently is a non-means tested benefit. It鈥檚 given to people to kind of go some way towards dealing with the extra costs of being disabled, which we know there are many. And that鈥檚 now going to be aligned with whether you can work or not? How鈥檚 that going to work? Because PIP was in no related to that before.

TOM-听 听 听 听 听 听 听No, so they will remain two distinct benefits; which is an important point to make. But there will no longer be the work capability assessment. The only assessment that there will be going forward is the personal independence payment assessment. And another part of the reform that we鈥檙e introducing, and I think is really welcome based on the feedback that I get very regularly, is that people say to me, we would rather be assessed by someone who has got expertise and knowledge of the particular condition that I have. And what we鈥檒l be doing in future is testing, matching somebody鈥檚 health condition with a specialist expert assessor to try and make sure that we get more decisions right first time and the people get the support that they ought to be receiving.

EMMA-听 听 听 听 听So, the PIP assessment will change to bring in work elements?

TOM-听 听 听 听 听 听 听I don鈥檛 anticipate that there would need to be particularly radical change to that PIP assessment in the new system. But what we will do is we will make sure that we work constructively to get this right, because this is flagship reform; it鈥檚 a really important change that we鈥檙e seeing delivered. It won鈥檛 be delivered immediately. I would hope that that will happen in the early stages of the next parliament. And then we鈥檒l see an incremental geographical delivery of the reform, starting with new claims in 2026, 2027, and making sure that we test and learn and get this right.

EMMA-听 听 听 听 听If we鈥檙e going to have to be assessed for a personal independence payment and that鈥檚 going to affect the work related benefits that disabled people get, is it not just a rebranding of the work capability assessment then?

TOM-听 听 听 听 听 听 听So, a lot of individuals that this is relevant to will already be receiving PIP. And those that are not receiving PIP we will be looking carefully at whether they would meet the eligibility criteria for PIP. And I also want to look closely at PIP more generally. I want to bring wait times down around PIP as much as is feasibly possible. There is work ongoing in that regard at the moment. And I think we should always be looking to make sure that our processes are fit for purpose, that these processes are as easy for people to navigate as possible. And that鈥檚 one of the reasons I think for example the digitalisation of PIP is really important because with the prompts and with the right support around application processes undoubtedly we can help people to navigate that journey more easily.

EMMA-听 听 听 听 听Yeah, because over 40% of people who apply for PIP don鈥檛 get it first time at the moment so it will be interesting to see what changes that brings. Disability organisations that I鈥檝e spoken to are really worried about the proposals, and they say that the plans will lead to more benefit related deaths. What do you say to that?

TOM-听 听 听 听 听 听 听So, my experience of the conversations that I鈥檝e had is that of course people want to see the detail and they want to study this and they want to be able to interrogate what it is that the government is proposing. And I鈥檓 really looking forward to the conversations over the coming weeks and months about these plans. And I repeat that point that I made a bit earlier that of course where work isn鈥檛 appropriate for people they will continue to receive the support that they receive, and that is absolutely right and proper.

EMMA-听 听 听 听 听Disability organisations are worried about these new proposals, these new plans, because they were very worried about the other plans because they felt that people were dying by suicide because their benefits were being taken off them, their lives were being disrupted. This is the fear that always surrounds work and work capability. And they鈥檝e been asking the government for figures around this, campaigners have, and that those figures haven鈥檛 arrived. But what we do now have are figures from the Office for National Statistics which show that rates of suicide amongst disabled people are four times higher than amongst non-disabled people. We spoke a lot about those on Access All last week, and we had a very, very interesting conversation about them. Don鈥檛 they show that the government is failing disabled people?

TOM-听 听 听 听 听 听 听I think that this government is absolutely determined to do right by disabled people, building on the work that we have already done. I think it鈥檚 right that any lessons are learnt from any death in any circumstances. And we have processes in place within the Department for Work and Pensions that I am confident help us to do that, and to make sure that key learning is captured, and that that is then reflected in our processes. But I think more broadly what we鈥檙e announcing through the budget with the publication of the white paper, with the disability action plan that is coming, is about taking support and assistance for disabled people to the next level. I鈥檓 not complacent about that.

EMMA-听 听 听 听 听Yeah, but four times higher! Four times higher is a lot, isn鈥檛 it?

TOM-听 听 听 听 听 听 听What we need to do is continue to build upon the work that has already taken place. I think that we鈥檝e got an ambitious agenda to improve the lives of disabled people. And that鈥檚 what I want the disability action plan to play into.

EMMA-听 听 听 听 听And a kinder process as well?

TOM-听 听 听 听 听 听 听I think that our processes should always be responsive to people鈥檚 needs. And I think what we鈥檙e announcing is all about that: making sure there is that proper wraparound support and care for people that meets their needs. As I say, I really want people to feel supported in every aspect of their interactions with the Department for Work and Pensions and with government more generally. And I of course take that issue really seriously. And we have processes within the department that ensure that where issues arise that there is proper learning that comes on the back of that. I鈥檝e agreed to meet with Rethink Mental Illness to talk about this issue in the coming weeks because I do take this really seriously, as I say. [End of interview]

EMMA-听 听 听 听 听That was my chat with Tom yesterday, before all the full official announcements and the health and disability white paper was released. And off the back of those announcements we got an email from Emily:

EMILY-听 听 听 听 听Jeremy Hunt said he wants to separate benefit entitlement from an individual鈥檚 ability to work. But if I hadn鈥檛 lost my ability to work I wouldn鈥檛 need benefits to survive. What of those of us who can鈥檛 work and aren鈥檛 eligible for PIP supposed to do? Universal credit isn鈥檛 enough to survive on without the health element. And if the other elements are only available to people who are working or looking for work then we鈥檒l quickly lose that money to sanctions. The paper says there will be transitional money, but I鈥檓 scared of what happens after that. These changes will be good for some people, but a lot of us are going to lose financial support, and that鈥檚 going to have a huge impact on mental and physical health and will likely cost lives, in the same way that incorrect WCA decisions and benefit sanctions are already doing.

EMMA-听 听 听 听 听I think that the fears that Emily has expressed there are some that lots of people are going to be having right now. So, tell us about them. Tell us what you think in all the usual ways.

听 听 听 听 听 听 听 听 听 听 听 听The government has now published the health and disability white paper. And there are a few extras in there that we weren鈥檛 expecting. So, we鈥檝e brought in Michael Buchanan, social affairs correspondent, to make some sense of this very big document. Michael, I think disabled people can be quite protective of PIP because it鈥檚 a non-means tested benefit, it鈥檚 about meeting costs of being disabled. It鈥檚 nothing to do with work or getting into work. How are they connecting the two?

MICHAEL-听 听 Well, what the government are saying is they鈥檙e not really, or at least the message is so far, they鈥檙e not really going to touch PIP, but they鈥檙e going to use PIP or the test for PIP or the eligibility for PIP as a way to decide whether people who are ill as opposed to being disabled, whether they get access to additional health top-up. So, at the moment you can get the work capability assessment, which determines whether you get a health top-up of your universal credit because you were ill and can鈥檛 work. What they鈥檙e planning on doing is scrapping that test and making the PIP test, if you like, the passport benefit into whether people will get health top-ups for being ill. So, if somebody, from 2026 their plan is for new claimants 鈥� I need to emphasise that: for new claimants 鈥� then from 2026 if the government鈥檚 plans go through, what will happen is if somebody says that they are too ill to work will be asked to undergo the PIP test. And if they are eligible for PIP then they will get a health top-up and they will keep that health top-up even if they move into a job. However, if they don鈥檛 get PIP they won鈥檛 get the health top-up and they will be expected to seek work.

EMMA-听 听 听 听 听And what about sanctions? There鈥檚 always a lot of talk about sanctions within the disabled community. There鈥檚 a lot of fear around them if you fail to turn up to a meeting with a job coach, fail to fill in a form, fail to appear like you鈥檙e looking for work. What are they going to do that鈥檚 different now with the sanctions process?

MICHAEL-听 听 Well, what the chancellor said is they wanted to apply sanctions more rigorously. And what that will mean in practice is that they are going to start using artificial intelligence in order to almost automatically apply sanctions if people don鈥檛 do what the conditions on their benefit are. And I think what that will mean is they鈥檒l probably remove some of the discretion that the work coaches and people in Job Centres have in applying a lot of those sanctions. They will move to almost a more automated way of sanctioning people. It鈥檚 worth bearing in mind that sanctions levels, certainly in universal credit at the moment, are at near record levels anyway. And most of the academic literature suggests they do not work in terms of moving people from benefits and into work.

EMMA-听 听 听 听 听To me as a disabled person that sounds scary because we don鈥檛 really know what they mean by AI, do we? We don鈥檛 know what they鈥檙e going to use and how they鈥檙e going to implement that.

MICHAEL-听 听 No, we don鈥檛. The devil in that case will absolutely be in the detail. But I think, as many people know, in order to comply with the rules of a particular benefit you have to do this, you have to do that and you have to do the other thing. So, for instance if you don鈥檛 turn up for a Job Centre appointment they might just say, well that鈥檚 one tick against you; whilst perhaps previously you could phone up your job coach and say, look the reason I didn鈥檛 turn up was because of A, B and C. and maybe the job coach would look favourably or kindly on you and may not mark that against you. If you go to a more automated system it becomes harder to have those human interactions. But, as I say, they haven鈥檛 outlined the detail of that yet.

听 听 听 听 听 听 听 听 听 听 听 听I think in terms of moving people into work, and remember this was a budget all about trying to get more people into the workplace, they are putting a lot of effort and a lot of money into sitting down with people who want to move into work. So, for instance one of the reasons they are changing the work capability assessment is they鈥檝e done some research themselves which suggests that about one in five people who get that health top-up at the moment would be interested in moving into a job perhaps part time if the right opportunity came up. So, there鈥檚 two ways of looking at that stat: you can say that 80% of people can鈥檛 and don鈥檛 believe they can work, but they鈥檙e focusing on the 20% who might be able to work. And they鈥檙e trying to introduce very personalised things there in terms of universal support, a voluntary system where people will be able to try and move into the work with appropriate support. So, there is, as there鈥檚 always in benefits, there are carrots and sticks.

EMMA-听 听 听 听 听Michael Buchanan, thank you so much. I do feel like I understand it a bit better. But it鈥檚 so complicated. Will you come back again as these plans roll out and help us muddle through?

MICHAEL-听 听 Absolutely.

EMMA-听 听 听 听 听Thank you.

In this next section we鈥檙e going to talk about themes around sexual assault, so if this isn鈥檛 something that you feel you can listen to right now skip forward about seven minutes and then come back to us, please. So, we are going to talk about a really important documentary that was on 91热爆 One this week, it鈥檚 still on 91热爆 iPlayer, and it鈥檚 by Christine McGuiness who is a TV personality and an autism campaigner. She was diagnosed as autistic a year ago after her children were found to be autistic as well. Here to chat about the documentary is Carly Jones. You鈥檙e really welcome Carly.

CARLY-听 听 听 听 Thank you so much for inviting me to talk about this.

EMMA-听 听 听 听 听It could have been made about you, Carly, couldn鈥檛 it? Tell us a bit about your story.

CARLY-听 听 听 听 I was diagnosed at 32 years of age after two of my daughters were diagnosed as being autistic. So, there was a great relief in having an answer for why I found life challenging. But there was also a huge wave of fear, that fear that this would kind of be a generational curse if you like, the vulnerability. I was incredibly worried about my girls because I know how difficult life was before diagnosis, be that in education, be that in relationships, friendships. And hearing Christine鈥檚 story really resonated with me, and I鈥檓 sure the entire autistic community. We know that autistic people are incredibly vulnerable, particularly to sexual assault. For that to be in the mainstream media I鈥檓 sure is going to help so many people.

EMMA-听 听 听 听 听Let鈥檚 hear Christine talking about that now.

CHRISTINE- [Clip] Before Patrick I had been sexually abused. I was raped. I used to pray 鈥� and it鈥檚 sad now when I think about it 鈥� I鈥檇 pray every night that I wouldn鈥檛 wake up in the morning. [End of clip]

EMMA-听 听 听 听 听It really looked from that clip like she鈥檇 never said those things before, didn鈥檛 it, Carly?

CARLY-听 听 听 听 You could really tell by the way Christine said it that it was potentially one of the first times the words had kind of passed her lips. And it鈥檚 unfortunately a very tragic life trajectory for so many autistic women. Back in 2016 I think it was I spoke at the United Nations, and I didn鈥檛 want to just talk about my own life experiences, I wanted to talk about other autistic women鈥檚 life experiences. And only last September I was in Scotland helping with gender based violence and autism conference and one of the domestic violence services there said for every ten women they have in their care that nine of them are autistic. And that鈥檚 not a domestic violence service just for autistic women; it鈥檚 just an open service.

EMMA-听 听 听 听 听Why do you think autistic women tend to be more vulnerable to sexual assault?

CARLY-听 听 听 听 I think part of our diagnostic criteria is social imagination, so foreseeing consequence in a social situation. Of course that doesn鈥檛 make it all our fault, but it can be very challenging to understand somebody鈥檚 agendas for us or what could happen next in a social situation.

EMMA-听 听 听 听 听And what people鈥檚 intentions are?

CARLY-听 听 听 听 Yes. And if you are surrounded your whole life by very nice people with good intentions that鈥檚 not going to be as much of a challenge. But we know that the world isn鈥檛 full of very nice people with good intentions, so we鈥檙e incredibly vulnerable to those. There鈥檚 also a lot of difficulty in being able to report abuse timely, due to kind of thinking is what happened to me wrong, first of all, and who can help me, and once I鈥檝e asked someone for help what鈥檚 the consequence of that, the social imagination, what is the consequence. And the consequence hopefully is that you get some support and help and the abuse stops. But that鈥檚 incredibly challenging for autistic women. The minute I have to mask around someone else it鈥檚 almost like I鈥檓 on remote control.

EMMA-听 听 听 听 听Could you explain masking for people and how that shows up for autistic women?

CARLY-听 听 听 听 So, masking is autistic women and men, but it鈥檚 more commonly known for women to mask: that we will observe a situation or research a situation before we turn up, and that kind of physical masking as well perhaps, having hair styled differently, different makeup. My old wardrobe prior to diagnosis looked a bit like a backstage theatre costume department: it was just outfits for all the different people I needed to be. I get, when I鈥檓 excited, I really flap my hands. In meetings I鈥檒l sit on my hands for quite a long time to kind of cover that up. I tend not to now because everyone knows I鈥檓 autistic, but still sometimes. And it鈥檚 not a way for us to lie or defraud or fake it, it鈥檚 purely to survive because we realise how vulnerable we can be when we show our authentic autistic self. It鈥檚 a survival mechanism. And it鈥檚 exhausting and it has serious consequences on our mental health.

EMMA-听 听 听 听 听So, one of the places where it felt like Christine in the documentary had to mask less was when she was with a bunch of fellow autistic mums with autistic kids.

FEMALE 1- [Clip] My youngest child鈥檚 first words were recalculating. [Laughter]

FEMALE 2-听 听 听 That鈥檚 awesome.

CHRISTINE- Meeting all the other autistic women and girls that I鈥檝e met and seeing that they were just like me I didn鈥檛 feel like I needed to fit in or try or pretend because I just instantly did. I was just like them and that was the first time in my life. That鈥檚 the best thing I鈥檝e probably got out of this: full acceptance for myself. [End of clip]

EMMA-听 听 听 听 听That鈥檚 so powerful, isn鈥檛 it? Is that how you feel when you鈥檙e with other autistic mums as well?

CARLY-听 听 听 听 Yeah. The only way I can describe it how it feels 鈥� I never thought I could have friendships with girls, I always had friendships with boys because they鈥檙e a lot more straightforward, they don鈥檛 tend to talk behind your back and all this kind of stuff 鈥� and it was when I met other autistic women that it was like I鈥檇 been living my whole life walking around in really high stilettos, and all of a sudden I鈥檇 come home and put some UGG boots or some slippers on. It was that comfort level, and you can just completely be yourself, and it鈥檚 the most beautiful feeling. And it saddens me that I had to wait 32 years to experience that. It鈥檚 wonderful, wonderful to see Christine stepping in to her authentic autistic self. I鈥檓 sure the whole autistic community are right behind her.

EMMA-听 听 听 听 听Thank you so much, Carly Jones, for joining me to chat through the documentary, Christine McGuiness, Unmasking My Autism. And that鈥檚 on iPlayer now.

CARLY-听 听 听 听 Thank you so much.

EMMA-听 听 听 听 听[Blue Peter theme tune] Such an iconic theme. Of course that鈥檚 Blue Peter. And with me now is Blue Peter鈥檚 42nd presenter, and she鈥檚 disabled, she鈥檚 one of us, it鈥檚 Abby Cook! You鈥檙e so welcome, Abby.

ABBY-听 听 听 听 听 听Thank you for having me on the podcast. How awesome.

EMMA-听 听 听 听 听I鈥檓 very excited because you鈥檙e from Falkirk in Scotland, which isn鈥檛 far from where I live in Fife. And you鈥檙e so young, you鈥檙e 20, into the wheelchair racing. First of all, you just started last week and you got such a great intro. Let鈥檚 hear that:

MALE-听 听 听 听 听 听[Clip] BP fans, please welcome to the studio:

FEMALE-听 听 听 The newest member of the team:

MALE-听 听 听 听 听 听Blue Peter presenter number 42:

FEMALE-听 听 听 Abby Cook! [End of clip]

EMMA-听 听 听 听 听Woo-hoo. I鈥檓 getting excited just listening to that. What was it like being in the studio with there鈥檚 an audience now? I think last time I watched Blue Peter it was really quiet and gentle.

ABBY-听 听 听 听 听 听It is incredible. It鈥檚 a full sensory experience. It鈥檚 very loud. You鈥檝e got obviously all the audience around which give you so much energy. For my entrance I had pyrotechnics behind me. So, they gave me a spot to sit on and they were like, right do not move from here, health and safety, we鈥檝e got like fire going on behind you. So, that was really awesome. And also I had really cool music going on. So, it was a very cool first entrance for my first show.

EMMA-听 听 听 听 听Tell me about the studio and the dressing rooms and everything, did they put any adjustments in place for you? Because you鈥檙e a wheelchair user, right?听 听 听 听 听 听

ABBY-听 听 听 听 听 听Yes, I am. So, they did the most amazing thing. They have this thing, the rostra, where they all sit. So, Henry, the dog, his favourite place is to sit on the sofa on the rostra. And so it has two steps up to it, which made it a little bit tricky for me to get up. So, what they did was they made this incredible ramp that went round; it actually looks very integrated into the studio. I鈥檓 not going to lie, during the rehearsals I just go up and down it. I find it very fun. I like to go a bit fast. But a lot of it was already quite accessible. Everything is usually on the one floor. And usually I鈥檒l just bring a blanket and then if I get a bit tired I鈥檒l go for a nap during rehearsals.

EMMA-听 听 听 听 听Oh, that鈥檚 good you鈥檙e able to do that. Because we鈥檝e talked to Amy in Strictly who鈥檚 got Crohn鈥檚, we鈥檝e talked to other people and that鈥檚 one of the adjustments they鈥檝e talked about is just being told that you don鈥檛 need to be at places where you鈥檙e not essential if you need a rest.

ABBY-听 听 听 听 听 听Yes exactly. They usually find me a little quiet room and I went for a little nap in the middle of my first show day.

EMMA-听 听 听 听 听Is there much pressure behind being the first I鈥檓 going to say visibly disabled presenter?

ABBY-听 听 听 听 听 听I don鈥檛 really think so. I think I鈥檓 kind of just me. I don鈥檛 really over-think it too much. And also, as you say, visibly disabled, because you never know, there are a lot of hidden disabilities as well. But I guess it just adds another aspect to the show really. Blue Peter have already been very inclusive. I would say with the choice of presenters they have it鈥檚 been very, very diverse. And also they鈥檝e been doing things like sit skiing for bits and following people from different walks of life.

EMMA-听 听 听 听 听So, they were quite diverse anyway before you came along?

ABBY-听 听 听 听 听 听Yeah.

EMMA-听 听 听 听 听So, you didn鈥檛 feel like I鈥檓 the diversity bit or anything like that?

ABBY-听 听 听 听 听 听No.

EMMA-听 听 听 听 听Now, I鈥檓 going to sound like a taxi driver when I ask this question because that鈥檚 who mostly asks me this question: have you always been disabled, Abby?

ABBY-听 听 听 听 听 听Yes. I have a condition called Ehlers-Danlos syndrome. It causes just a whole host of different conditions as well. I鈥檓 not going to go through the entire list of them. But I鈥檝e always had it since I was born, because it鈥檚 a genetic condition. It just got kind of worse as I got older and now I use a wheelchair. I can still walk around a little bit, but generally if I鈥檓 going for longer distances I will get a lot of pain fatigue and it becomes quite difficult, so I use a wheelchair for that. And I鈥檝e got a little power pack that goes on the back of my manual chair and connects to a little watch, I double tap it and then I go off. So, it helps me manage my energy levels as well. A lot of people think that wheelchairs are a bad thing, but for me it鈥檚 my independence. It means that I can actually get out on days I鈥檓 in a lot of pain or have a lot of dislocations.

EMMA-听 听 听 听 听So, to be clear, with Ehlers-Danlos syndrome your actual joints dislocate. I just don鈥檛 think people actually realise that that happens to people on a regular basis and they have to just get on with it. So, you said that it got worse in your teens. I read that you had to take two years off school. Can you tell me a bit more about that?

ABBY-听 听 听 听 听 听Yeah, it was a difficult time. It gave me a lot of determination because I missed two years of school. But I then went back to school and I did two years after that. It鈥檚 definitely been frustrating. All the experiences that you have earlier in life and things when it鈥檚 maybe a bit tricky it does give you a lot of ways to adapt to things. I think people with disabilities are the most adaptive people ever. The solutions that they will come up with just to get round an inaccessible environment.

EMMA-听 听 听 听 听What鈥檚 your favourite one that you鈥檝e come up with, do you think?

ABBY-听 听 听 听 听 听My favourite one: reaching the top shelf of a shop if I鈥檓 feeling very frail and I can鈥檛 stand up, I sit on my wheel and it gives me an extra three or four inches of height, so I can reach the top shelf. You wouldn鈥檛 think to sit on your own wheel to get a ketchup bottle.

EMMA-听 听 听 听 听That鈥檚 good, yeah, absolutely. Tell me about when you went back to school, did sport come soon after? Because you鈥檙e really very sporty and very passionate about sport, aren鈥檛 you?

ABBY-听 听 听 听 听 听Yeah, definitely, very passionate about sport. I used to be a competitive swimmer. Unfortunately I don鈥檛 really do that all that much now because the level of training听 that it requires is quite a lot, and too much for my body to handle at the moment. But my PE it was maybe a little bit lacking; they didn鈥檛 quite know all the different adaptive sports that they could do. So, I really wanted to find something that I could do that wasn鈥檛 what everybody else was doing. I couldn鈥檛 unfortunately at that point do things like hockey, so a lot of the time they would get me to referee instead, which I didn鈥檛 really like. So, I found a local wheelchair racing club that was quite close to me, and I started going there. They took a chance on me and they were like, you know what, we don鈥檛 have a wheelchair racer here, we鈥檙e a disability specific athletics club so what we can do, we can try it. So, they took a chance and then I started wheelchair racing. And I did that since I was about 16. I do it for the social aspects, the positive effect that it has on my mental health.

EMMA-听 听 听 听 听Yes, I was going to ask you about that, because you kind of made that into your career, didn鈥檛 you, helping people get into sport for mental health reasons?

ABBY-听 听 听 听 听 听Yeah, definitely. I definitely just kind of fell into that. I鈥檝e been through a lot of different careers in my 20 years surprisingly.

EMMA-听 听 听 听 听Really?

ABBY-听 听 听 听 听 听Yeah. There have been quite a few.

EMMA-听 听 听 听 听Like what?

ABBY-听 听 听 听 听 听I started working with Disability Sport getting disabled and non-disabled participants into kind of just physical activity, fun physical activity that鈥檚 not just a prescriptive sport.

EMMA-听 听 听 听 听Abseiling activities?

ABBY-听 听 听 听 听 听[Laughs] That came later.

EMMA-听 听 听 听 听Or not? Because your first challenge as a Blue Peter presenter, in fact it was to get your badge, was to do something that scared you quite a lot. What was that?

ABBY-听 听 听 听 听 听Well, you have to say what you鈥檙e scared of, the Blue Peter music, what鈥檚 your greatest fear? So, I said I鈥檓 really scared of heights, and I was really scared of open water. And they said, perfect, let鈥檚 get you abseiling 30m down over a viaduct, over a riverbed.

FEMALE-听 听 听 [Clip] Keep lowering yourself down. I鈥檓 going to lock you off now.

ABBY-听 听 听 听 听 听Okay, yeah please do. Oh no. Argh! [End of clip]

听 听 听 听 听 听 听 听 听 听 听 听The presenters have to earn their first badge. They鈥檙e not just given it. And what they didn鈥檛 show is the fact that they put me on a safety hook and they said, don鈥檛 worry, you can take both your hands off the rope. You can take both your hands off the rope and you can collect this blue Peter badge that was dangling down beside me. And I said, 鈥楴o way! No way am I taking two hands off the rope!鈥� I took the Blue Peter badge off with my teeth, like an absolute savage. I don鈥檛 think that quite made the edit. But I was very glad when I got back down to the bottom.

EMMA-听 听 听 听 听Would you do it again? No?

ABBY-听 听 听 听 听 听For the badge. For the badge I would do it again.

EMMA-听 听 听 听 听Well, Abby, I鈥檓 very excited to keep watching you on Fridays on Blue Peter. You鈥檙e back on 17 March, which is in fact going to be called Red Peter because it鈥檚 Red Nose Day on the 17th.

ABBY-听 听 听 听 听 听Yeah, definitely, for the first time in 65 years they are changing their name to Red.

EMMA-听 听 听 听 听Absolutely glorious getting to know you. Thank you so much, Abby Cook.

Thank you so much to Abby for joining us. A fantastic new disabled presenter on the scene. I鈥檓 not worried at all, not at all. Anyway, if you would like to get into sports and media, particularly behind the camera, the 91热爆 has an open day in Media City in Salford. If you or someone you know wants to know more or get involved go to our Twitter feed @91热爆AccessAll. If you want to get in touch with us here on Access All you can send us a voice message or a text message to our WhatsApp, which is 0330 123 9480. Or you can tweet us @91热爆AccessAll, or you can email us accessall@bbc.co.uk. Thanks for listening. Bye.

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