91热爆

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听

Mark - This episode is about grief. It includes conversations about death and the grieving process. Grief is a really raw and really present thing for a lot of people right now, so we really understand if this episode isn鈥檛 for you and we鈥檒l catch you on the next one.

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[Music]

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seaneen - This is Mentally Interesting, a podcast series from 91热爆 Ouch. I鈥檓 Seaneen Molloy.

听

MARK - And I鈥檓 Mark Brown. We鈥檝e known each other for ages, we鈥檙e long term friends. Between us we鈥檝e got years and years and years of professional and personal experience of mental health difficulty, and we鈥檙e here talking about the awkward stuff so you don鈥檛 have to.

听

SEANEEN - Each episode of Mentally Interesting has a broad theme. This one鈥檚 about grief, for reasons that will become clear. Grief psychotherapist, Julia Samuel, will join us later, so stay tuned.

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mark - Ouch@bbc.co.uk is the email address to get in touch with us and we鈥檙e on Twitter and Facebook at 91热爆 Ouch.

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SEANEEN - I listened back to the last podcast that we did which was about shame, and honestly it feels like a more innocent time. It鈥檚 been a rough month鈥�

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MARK - Back when we were young.

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SEANEEN - Yeah. And yeah, it鈥檚 been a bit of a rough time since then. Things haven鈥檛 quite worked out the way we were hoping they would do.

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MARK - All of our listeners at home will have got a heads up that grief features in what鈥檚 happened. I lost my sister on 14th January this year. My sister died, so I鈥檓 going to be talking a little bit about that, and more broadly about how grief feels and, you know, what we do about it. Whereas with you, Seaneen, stuff鈥檚 been happening for you as well.

听

SEANEEN - Yeah, so the baby is born. The much awaited baby. Baby Jack. And he鈥檚 doing very well, he鈥檚 healthy, happy, he screams a lot, but it didn鈥檛 go quite to plan for me. I sounded very cocky in the last episode about how everything was going to go and it hasn鈥檛 gone very well. I basically wasn鈥檛 very well, still, to be honest, struggling mentally and physically, but I鈥檓 going to come back to that in the next episode because this one, we really couldn鈥檛 not explore what had been happening to Mark and grief. So we think it鈥檚 the only topic that we can really do justice to at the moment.

听

MARK - Yeah. One of the really weird things about losing someone and about grief is it鈥檚 really not like it is in the films. Like, you don鈥檛 put on your black dress and your black veil and walk around with a sour face all of the time, just kind of shaking your head and sighing. Although to be honest, I鈥檝e been doing quite a lot of shaking.

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SEANEEN - That鈥檚 the way you live normally anyway, so鈥�

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MARK - Full of grief and sadness, sighing.

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SEANEEN - Sad face and鈥�

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MARK - Just like slowly deflating one of those inflatable men that, you know, waves their arms around in front of car dealerships.

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SEANEEN - But you did want to talk about it. So why? Why did you want to explore it on this episode?

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MARK - Well, I think one of the things that鈥檚 very difficult for us to talk about right now is how much this pandemic period, this cabin fever period, this lockdown period, about how much the last year has been haunted for a lot of us by the spectre of death, the fear of illness and the fear of loss. But we never really think that it鈥檒l happen to us, like, you always think that things will turn out all right and, you know, in the final reel of the film you all get together for that big party that鈥檚 been put off for all that time and then everything will be all right and you鈥檒l get to see all the people you wanted to see and you鈥檒l get to pick up all the threads that you wanted to pick up. And unfortunately that鈥檚 not the case with me and my sister. So the last time I saw my sister was on her birthday in February, just before lockdown started. And being very good, very conscientious people we observed all the lockdown rules, you know, kept ourselves safe and stuff, so we didn鈥檛 see each other all year.

听

She fell ill just before Christmas and had to go into hospital for a medical procedure and she was really, really ill. I couldn鈥檛 go and see her. I was standing in the field outside of the hospital in the dark waving a torch up at the windows in the hope that she would see it, because that was as close as we could kind of get. Then she was moved to a care home for kind of rehabilitation and whilst she was there she contracted COVID and it wasn鈥檛 very good but, you know, it鈥檚 all right, she鈥檚 young, she鈥檚 healthy so she鈥檒l be fine. She was 39.

听

Then at kind of four o鈥檆lock in the morning I got a phone call from the nursing home saying unfortunately your sister鈥檚 died. I鈥檓 a month, a month and a bit, nearly two months into the kind of process of getting used to being a person that doesn鈥檛 have a sister anymore. Me and Alison lost our mam when I was 19 and she was 16, so both of us have kind of spent a lot of our adulthood trying to get used to there being a gap in our lives that other people didn鈥檛 have. So in some ways it wasn鈥檛 like an inoculation against loss, because I鈥檓 obviously absolutely devastated, but in some ways I feel, not prepared, but at least having had a chance to have the kind of conversations we have on the podcast about grief and loss and shame and all of those kind of lovely sexy things that you definitely should put on a dating profile if you really want to pull people, or possibly pull the grim reaper.

听

Yeah, so I thought it was really important for me to talk about it because it鈥檚 something very real that鈥檚 happened. We can wang on about mental health stuff and talk about stuff in the abstract, but for me this was the kind of experience of all of the headlines coming home.

听

seaneen - Yeah.

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mark - And almost, you know, like echoes from the future resounding back through the past, like all the things that I鈥檇 been worried about for other people happened to my sister, and kind of happened to me and her partner and my family and all of her friends.

听

SEANEEN - Because of the pandemic, I mean, you can鈥檛 grieve in the way that you probably would like to, or that, you know, people have done for years in order to say goodbye. I mean, what鈥檚 life been like since Alison died?

听

MARK - Life since Alison died has been a kind of mixture of feeling the good stuff and also feeling the loss. It kind of takes a long time to even begin to, like, reset your internal settings. So I remember I went out for a walk and I was thinking about Alison鈥檚 partner who鈥檚 on their own now, and I was thinking, God, you know, they must be absolutely knackered. And I was thinking, you know, all this emotion and all this feeling and all these feelings of sadness, I鈥檓 really knackered. And then my mind just ran on and I just thought, God, and Alison must be absolutely done in from, like, all of these people saying that they miss her.

听

And it was like I hadn鈥檛 reset my thinking to stop worrying about how she was feeling, like, I was concerned about how her death was affecting her. And that鈥檚 that kind of, you know, that鈥檚 what you feel for your sibling, that you鈥檙e always thinking, you know, this is happening to me but how do they feel about it, losing someone who you couldn鈥檛 see and then not really being able to get together with the people that knew them, the people who have a kind of role in keeping the essence of her alive, just not being able to do that hanging out. You were talking about the Irish Catholic funerals.

听

seaneen - Yeah. My friend died last year and it was just after lockdown happened when there were really strict restrictions, which there are now. And he doesn鈥檛 even feel gone because there鈥檚 been no way to sort of go through that process of saying goodbye and of people being gone, it feels like he just stopped updating Facebook. And I鈥檓 kind of checking on the page, being like, where鈥檚 Sam? And obviously I don鈥檛 know where he is now.

听

But death in Ireland is a cultural event. I鈥檝e always been a bit discomforted by how death rituals are in England and stuff when I lived there but, you know, we get together, we get drunk, we have a very physical presence of the people who died. And people come round to the house and you鈥檙e just making loads of sandwiches and the funeral happens really quickly and there鈥檚 such a set rule to follow. You know what鈥檚 going to happen and you know what鈥檚 going to happen afterwards and it鈥檚 really comforting.

听

And that kind of superstitious element sort of feels like you鈥檙e connected to this long line of people who鈥檝e just been there too. And I think right now there is such a disconnection between what other people have experienced because you鈥檙e going through something unprecedented, even though death isn鈥檛 unprecedented and, you know, obviously we lose people, but the way we鈥檝e lost and the way to say goodbye is unprecedented. It鈥檚 dictated by these different rules, not your own inner cultural values or even the values of your culture, by law, by health and safety. And I think that鈥檚 a really kind of isolating and disquieting thing.

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MARK - Yeah.

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seaneen - And I wonder what鈥檚 going to happen afterwards. I mean, how are we going to remember?

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MARK - I mean, that鈥檚 a massive one. I mean Alison worked at the Cartoon Museum in London and knew everyone in British comics, and for about three weeks after Alison died I was kind of inundated with other people鈥檚 memories and other people鈥檚 thoughts and other people鈥檚 remembrances of Alison, which was amazing because all of the things that they described about her and all the things that they warmly, in a state of shock, but still with warmth, shared and remembered, were all things that I recognised. Like, what I saw in my sister was what other people saw in my sister, and that was terrific, but it was kind of weird as well because it felt for a while my job was to be the kind of administrator or the secretary to other people鈥檚 sense of loss and shock and grief. Kind of I was just like the filing clerk, kind of thank you for your kind message.

听

SEANEEN - It is noted.

听

mark - Yeah, it鈥檚 noted. Here鈥檚 the GDPR notice and we won鈥檛 retain your grieving for more than 30 days etc, etc. That was really, really nice. And kind of I鈥檝e been thinking a lot about the difference between the feeling of cold remembering and warm remembering, because I think part of the experience of grieving is oscillating between something that feels like being submerged in the bottom of a murky lake and everything鈥檚 cold and everything鈥檚 hungry and everything鈥檚 empty and there鈥檚 no way of seeing anything, and then there鈥檚 this beautiful warm bittersweet remembrance that鈥檚 like, you know, the kind of buttery sunshine on the top of the trees during the golden hour as the sun goes down, that kind of warmth and mistiness. And kind of switching between the two and kind of realising that in some ways, like a lot of the truisms about losing someone are true in a lot of ways. You know, you鈥檒l feel empty and you鈥檒l feel bereft and then sometimes you鈥檒l feel so full of kind of love and joy and disappointment that that won鈥檛 go on.

听

You know, so with Alison it鈥檚 like the world is still full of things that I would like to show her, so making pointless play lists of songs in my head that I would play to her that I鈥檒l never get to play to her, and kind of recognising that. But it鈥檚 really nice that out in the world there are lots of other people who shared a part in her life that miss the part that she shared. And I鈥檓 really sad for all of those people, and they鈥檒l all be thinking exactly the same as me, like I thought we would get together for a drink and we鈥檇 see each other on the other side of this, and we won鈥檛.

听

And, you know, ((laughs)) it鈥檚 funny, me and Alison鈥檚 partner went into the undertakers just this week, so we kind of went in and said to the undertaker, 鈥淲e鈥檙e really sorry, we鈥檙e a pair of Herberts who are really sad and have never organised a funeral before. We haven鈥檛 got a Scooby Doo what we鈥檙e doing.鈥� It was like sitting in the headmaster鈥檚 office waiting to be kind of told off. I sat looking at the carpet thinking I would never have thought that an undertaker would have a Burberry carpet. ((laughs)) But then they were really brisk and really nice, and that thing about rituals was kind of correct. Like someone who knew what to say and knew what the difficult bits were and didn鈥檛 feel like they were tiptoeing around us as if our grief and our loss was like an unexploded bomb with a trembler switch that either needed to be defused or just concreted over.

听

And that鈥檚 really nice. Like, because one of the things that鈥檚 very difficult about grief is when people don鈥檛 know what to say and end up not saying anything, and that鈥檚 where your grief kind of turns inwards, like there鈥檚 no space for, like, the remembering and the loss. And I鈥檝e been thinking about this a lot this year about how we will remember people we鈥檝e lost but also collectively in our communities, in our cities, in our countries, like how we鈥檒l remember all of the people that aren鈥檛 there anymore. It feels like at the minute inside of me there was something where there were two hearts doing the work and now there鈥檚 just one, and I just feel absolutely exhausted. Like, I feel like, you know, I feel like a motor being run on a very low voltage.

听

Just before Alison died when I was really worried because she was unwell I found a tweet that said something like if you feel like you hate the world have something to eat. If you feel like the world hates you have a nap. And that has actually been the most important bit of looking after myself, it鈥檚 been feeding those physical needs. Also a little bit, learning how to soothe myself. Like, you know, there鈥檚 a bit of me who鈥檚 a little child who isn鈥檛 ever going to see one of their favourite people in the world again. And that little child is frightened and scared and upset and it鈥檚 okay to soothe yourself and it鈥檚 okay not to think about how terrible and awful things are in that kind of much bigger, broader grown up sense and philosophise about it.

听

Sometimes those feelings are kind of irreducible, like sadness is sadness and is sadness and it鈥檚 okay to feel that. And that鈥檚 often like a physical state, so I鈥檝e just felt like I鈥檝e had flu or just felt physically awful. I鈥檓 quite a neurotic person and I tend to experience my emotions through my body anyway so, you know, what鈥檚 your mental health difficulty? Intense indigestion. [Laughs] Not panic, intense indigestion.

听

Those of you at home who listened to our last episode will be familiar with the idea of the bum kicking machine, and I鈥檝e been doing everything I can not to get on the bum kicking machine and peddle it so it hoofs me up the backside telling me what I should have done and making me feel bad for not feeling different. Just allowing it.

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SEANEEN - Don鈥檛 get on the machine.

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MARK - Don鈥檛 get on the machine. As beautiful as it may look, as shiny as its pistons and pedals may appear.

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SEANEEN - It鈥檚 the worst thing when someone dies though. I think it鈥檚 probably the hardest thing, is just like the things you feel like you should have said or done or even in the aftermath, things you should have said and done. But it is like literally the machine that goes nowhere, it鈥檚 just endless and it just goes into the void, there is nowhere else for it to go.

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MARK - But it鈥檚 funny actually, I don鈥檛 feel any regret in that sense, what I feel is just sadness and sorrow for all of the years of my life where my sister isn鈥檛 going to be there. And I feel sorry for everyone who knew her, and I feel sorry for myself. Not like, oh you鈥檙e feeling sorry for yourself, but I feel just鈥�

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SEANEEN - It鈥檚 okay to feel sorry for yourself [Laughs] in that way as well.

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MARK - But, you know, I just feel like that world that unfolds will not have her in it, and it would have been fantastic if she was there.

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SEANEEN - Yeah.

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[Music]

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SEANEEN - You鈥檝e been dealing with it in a way that I don鈥檛 think I could have done. Like, you have been volunteering at the vaccination centres.

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MARK - I have, which has been absolutely brilliant. If you ever want a pick me up in a time of global pandemic and crisis get yourself a volunteer role talking to cheerful, cockney 80-year-olds, right? Yeah, I鈥檝e been helping out with the vaccinations at a local mass vaccination centre. Really that鈥檚 just been involving waving my arms around and telling people not to worry and pointing them towards the people who have the needles. But it turns out, and I think we all know this, that actually older people aren鈥檛 more respectable and more shocked by things, they鈥檙e absolutely filthy and love a bit of a cheeky giggle. So I鈥檓 like, you know, 鈥淚f you just head through those double doors there and my colleagues will grab you on the other side.鈥� 鈥淥h, I could do with a good grabbing!鈥� or like, all the things about, you know, 鈥淚t鈥檚 just going to be a little prick.鈥� 鈥淲ell, that鈥檚 what he said.鈥� All that kind of stuff which is kind of wonderful.

听

But like, I did my first shift two days after Alison died. I鈥檇 signed up to it before she died and I thought do I do this, do I not do this? It鈥檚 been weird to have accidentally almost prepared myself a curriculum of activities that would fit really well with trying to carry on and remember and think about and inhabit this experience of just losing someone that I absolutely loved to bits.

听

[Music]

听

SEANEEN - You鈥檙e listening to Mentally Interesting from 91热爆 Ouch. To share your take on anything we鈥檝e discussed so far, email ouch@bbc.co.uk putting Mentally Interesting in the subject line.

听

MARK - Leading on from the first half of our podcast we now are very, very lucky to be able to talk to someone who has a bit more of a wider perspective than my perspective of being at the hot end of loss. We鈥檝e got Julia Samuel. Julia鈥檚 a grief psychotherapist and an author of two books on the subject, 鈥楪rief Works鈥� and 鈥楾his Too Shall Pass鈥�. Julia, is also the proud holder of the prize of being Mentally Interesting鈥檚 first guest. Thank you for being here Julia. How are you doing?

听

julia - I鈥檓 well, and I鈥檓 very honoured to be your first guest.

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MARK - How did you first become interested in grief psychotherapy? Like, were you a kid at school with, like, scuffed knees and a pocket full of acorns saying what I want to be is either an astronaut or a grief psychotherapist? What was it that led you into this field?

听

julia - I think me being a grief psychotherapist was the most unlikely job that I would ever have taken from my scruffy knees playground. And now that I鈥檓 61 and the first thing anyone thinks when they look at me is about death, [Laughter] they think of someone who鈥檚 died, they think of a funeral, and that really wasn鈥檛 what I was after. I was probably after being more like Brigitte Bardot when I was鈥� wanting boyfriends and had no thoughts of what my job would be, but for 35 years this has been my job, very unexpectedly.

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MARK - So how did grief come into that? Was it a shadow on your life or was it seeing something in other people鈥檚 lives?

听

julia - I think it was two things. One was both my parents had very significant losses by the time they were 25. So by the time my mum was 25 her mother, her father, and her sister and her brother had all died, so she had no family members left. And my father, his father and his brother had died by the time he was 25. And neither of them ever talked about any of their family members. There were black and white photographs around the house, but I didn鈥檛 really know who the people were. I vaguely knew I had an uncle that was killed in the war.

听

So I think what I kind of subliminally learned was what you don鈥檛 talk about matters and their way of dealing with grief is what we don鈥檛 talk about won鈥檛 hurt us. So I was always kind of wanting to understand what was going on and I never could. And the other thing is I鈥檓 a twin and so I鈥檝e always wanted connection and closeness, and being a therapist is a really good way to have connection and closeness. And I think I wanted to be needed, so I think it was all of those things. So they were all kind of childhood experiences that I had no idea where they would lead me to, but that is where they led me to.听

听

mark - I know that you, Julia, have a kind of phrase for siblings, describing them as hidden mourners. Do you think there鈥檚 something special or unspoken about the grief and the grieving of a sister or a brother?

听

julia - I do. I mean, I think they鈥檙e often the hidden mourners because the attention goes to the parents, particularly when it鈥檚 a death out of time, you know, when it鈥檚 a young person that dies all the attention turns to the parents and often the sibling鈥檚 role is to sort of make their parents happy. They often feel that they need to kind of be both the sibling that died and themselves. So they take on the mantel of being the good sibling, and they kind of lose often their sense of identity of being able to be themselves. And often with siblings the depth of the relationship, the importance of the relationship, isn鈥檛 recognised, that these two people have known each other from the moment they were born, and all of their family memories, their family history is held in each other.

听

seaneen - So earlier in the podcast we were talking about how do you remember when you can鈥檛 do the rituals that you鈥檙e used to doing? For example, you know, Mark was chatting about he can鈥檛 go down to the pub and have a drink for Alison. Is there a template for grieving for other times of disaster and pandemic that could guide us in how to remember the grief of this one? And if not, how are we going to do it?

听

julia - I mean, I think that you鈥檙e absolutely right, that we need rituals, and funerals have often been the first kind of ritual which is then surrounded by people coming together and having a drink and talking. And then there have been many rituals in different religions, sitting shiva, which all have been taken away and many people have had Zoom funerals, even if they鈥檙e close family. And so I think the complexity is that when someone dies the grief that you feel and the fact that they鈥檙e no longer present is invisible, and what the ritual does is make overt what you can鈥檛 see and that represents the meaning and the importance of the event that鈥檚 happened and a kind of part of the task of mourning is facing the reality of the loss, letting yourself know in a way that you can鈥檛 not know that this person has died.

听

But the biggest thing that predicts outcomes is the love and connection to others, that when someone dies it鈥檚 the relationship with others that helps us survive. And I think that, along with the ritual are the two most significant absences from COVID bereavement, is that you haven鈥檛 been able to be with your friends. Hopefully you鈥檝e been able to Zoom them or talk to them on the phone or have other connection, but having a hug says so many things that words can鈥檛 say. And often with grief people don鈥檛 know what to say, but giving you a hug and giving you that kind of look, like I really care about you, and giving you a pint, you know, it can be amazingly supportive.

听

So when I鈥檓 talking to clients now who are going through this we talk together about developing their own rituals and it may be that they light a candle at a particular time of day with a photograph and they just take five minutes out, or they might write a journal or they might read a poem. They might go for a walk with a friend and talk about the person that鈥檚 died and they might do a particular walk that becomes the sort of remembrance walk for, say, Alison.

听

Planting, this time of year, would be a natural thing to do in memory, like planting a bush or tree or bulbs so that we can, I think, be creative and find touchstones to memory, because that, you know, in your question, that is what we need to do, is that we need to keep the memory and the connection with the person alive, although they鈥檝e died. And we need to do that through our life, but having rituals is a fast track way of doing it, so you don鈥檛 have to think, like, how am I going to remember Alison today, it鈥檚 like, I always know that on a Friday I do this particular thing and that always puts me in touch with Alison.

听

MARK - What really interests me is we鈥檙e kind of living at a time where the spectre of death is very real and very close and we have been, during this pandemic, you know, nationally and globally for the last year. Do you think that nations and communities need rituals as much as individuals and families?

听

julia - I think there definitely is a collective grief and that that again is kind of invisible, but I think we kind of can feel it and at times I think when we kind of look at the numbers or read a story each of us can feel very overwhelmed and we kind of turn away from it because it does feel quite scary. And so, for instance, on 23rd March Marie Curie are doing a remembrance day for those that have been bereaved by COVID and they鈥檙e marking that with many different kinds of events and memorials through the day. And I hope there will be a national acknowledgement and remembrance.

听

So I think again, it鈥檚 this thing of making external what鈥檚 invisible and marking it and naming it and acknowledging it. You know, like the cenotaph service seems to me very significant, it really marks the wars, and it鈥檚 very simple. You know, it鈥檚 poppies, people coming together, saying a few words, takes half an hour, but it really kind of helps all the families through generations to remember those that died in the war.

听

MARK - Yeah, I sat down and did a bit of, like, back of the envelope maths, and I worked out that if you spent half a day interviewing and writing up a little account for every family who鈥檇 lost someone in the UK due to COVID, if you took the weekends off, because you鈥檇 need to, you鈥檇 need a bit of a break, it would take about 197 years. And that鈥檚 the magnitude of what we鈥檙e facing.

听

julia - The loss. The other significant number is that for every death there鈥檚 probably eight or nine people that are very significantly bereaved. So鈥�

听

SEANEEN - It鈥檚 nearly a million.

听

julia - That鈥檚 nearly a million people.

听

seaneen - Yeah. It鈥檚 incredible, the scale, to think about. You touched on this earlier, but we鈥檙e kind of living with this spectre of death at the moment and you鈥檝e mentioned people not wanting to think about death as a sort of way to superstitiously avoid it, kind of magical thinking.

听

julia - Yes.

听

SEANEEN - So death anxiety, it鈥檚 something I鈥檝e struggled with for years, I鈥檝e been in and out of therapy to try and deal with it, to no success, to be honest. How do you approach the topic of grief which is often the root of death anxiety with people who experience panic at the thought?

听

julia - I mean, Seaneen, if you were coming to see me I would ask what鈥檚 your first memory of fear and death and where does that take you to?

听

SEANEEN - [Laughs] Oh, don鈥檛 ask that question.

听

MARK - Yeah, don鈥檛 ask that one, not right now. [Laughter]

听

julia - Well, I mean鈥�

听

SEANEEN - Well really my first memory of death isn鈥檛 like a family member, it was Freddie Mercury.

听

julia - Oh really? That鈥檚 interesting.

听

SEANEEN - And it was鈥�

听

julia - How old were you?

听

SEANEEN - Oh, I think I was鈥� So that was 鈥�91 or 鈥�92, so I would have been about six or seven, but it was such a big thing, I remember it being everywhere and everyone being very sad. And I got kind of fixated on him and Queen for a while. Like, because of the scale of grief that was outpouring when he died. And that was my first memory of death and I鈥檇 had, you know, since childhood I鈥檝e had quite a lot of losses and some very significant ones in my teenage-hood. Definitely childhood is where that anxiety started. I鈥檝e had it since childhood and I鈥檓 also noticing my son is experiencing the same thing. And I found it hard to have that conversation with him, trying to hide my own feelings. I say I鈥檓 frightened but obviously I don鈥檛 want to really have a panic attack. [Laughs] But it鈥檚 interesting because I鈥檝e never actually been asked that question before in therapy. What鈥檚 the most effective strategy you use with people like me?

听

julia - I use something called EMDR, eye movement desensitisation reprocessing.

听

SEANEEN - So you treat it like a trauma kind of thing?

听

julia - Yeah. What it does is you go back to the memory and the way you felt it in your body and the belief that gave you. And it鈥檚 the belief that鈥檚 distorted probably. And it鈥檚 the belief that gives you anxiety. It goes to the core of it rather than the adult you, because it鈥檚 the child that is sending you signals of fear, the child in you. And so it鈥檚 an adaptive processing system that takes the distress out of the memory, so the adult you, the cognitive understanding, you can use that wisdom once you鈥檝e taken the distress out of your body. But it would have a rapid and remarkable outcome for you.

听

SEANEEN - I might need to look into that. Kind of talking around trauma, I mean, do you think there鈥檚 an assumption that people who鈥檝e already had a lot of trauma in their lives will just get on with grief? I mean, it鈥檚 just another bad thing that happened?

听

julia - Absolutely not. That if someone鈥檚 been traumatised you have to deal and process the trauma before they can even begin to grieve.

听

SEANEEN - Do you think trauma鈥檚 one of the kind of things that blocks people鈥檚 ability to grieve?

听

julia - Completely. It completely blocks their ability to grieve. You know, all the stats about mental health are around addictions, around kind of very negative behaviours, psychosis, a lot of those come from traumatic memories that haven鈥檛 been processed.

听

SEANEEN - I鈥檓 not saying that you do this but I think it can happen, even with friends and family, that feelings of grief are pathologised. Has that been something you鈥檝e ever seen, that if someone has a mental health diagnosis that any sort of feelings of grief might be attributed to their experiences, rather than just feeling really sad?

听

julia - Yeah, I mean that鈥檚 such an interesting鈥� I haven鈥檛 heard anyone put the two together in that way. I mean, what my understanding is, that grief is a natural process and that it can be a living loss. So, you know, what I term a living loss, everybody has had a living loss through the pandemic of their routines, of their events, of their life as they knew it, and then you can have grief from death, and the level of the grief would equal the level of the emotional investment in what has ended, whether it鈥檚 someone鈥檚 life or whether it鈥檚 your way of life. And that the task of mourning, if you like, is to adjust and accommodate it, not to accept it, not to be okay with it, but to find a way of living with this reality that you didn鈥檛 want and you didn鈥檛 choose.

听

And it鈥檚 a process of adaptation where you鈥� pain is the agent of change, where you need to allow the pain to adapt your reality so that you now know that someone has died or something has ended, and in the process of doing that you incrementally heal and find a way of living this new version of your life, your new normal that you didn鈥檛 want and accommodate the loss.听 And that means that the loss never goes, you don鈥檛 get over it, but you come to find a way of living with it, and the pain of it, the intensity changes. So over time it changes, but you can be 20 years down the line and have a smell of something and that will bring back the grief like it was yesterday but that doesn鈥檛 mean you haven鈥檛 grieved, it just means that people live on in our bodies. The body remembers, the body holds the score.

听

If somebody has a mental health diagnosis already and then something bad happens to them a new loss would always go back to the first loss. So if you鈥檙e already suffering, an additional grief will add to your suffering. It complicates the process of grieving.

听

MARK - It鈥檚 interesting you mention things like smells and sensations and physical things. It鈥檚 quite nice sometimes to be visited unbidden by the memory of someone. A smell or sound, a song, stubbing your toe, doing some swearing, any of the things that might bring back someone like my sister.

听

julia - And that鈥檚 a lovely thing, I agree, because often the process of adaptation is we鈥檙e in denial but our senses, sight, sound, touch and smell, don鈥檛 go through our brain or our memory, they come through the body, so they鈥檙e in you before you have a chance to deny them. And that鈥檚 where they can be very powerful and really lovely, so you feel suffused with the person that鈥檚 died in a nice way or you can feel overwhelmed by it if you鈥檝e been very busy blocking it.

听

MARK - I wanted to ask you about that kind of physical aspect of it, and you mentioned, you talked about the importance of hugs and going to people and face to face stuff. Do you think there鈥檒l be a kind of noticeable blip in the kind of story of grief based on so many people being isolated from the person they lost during the pandemic? Is this anything that happens with kind of the grief from wars or the grief from other disasters where someone doesn鈥檛 get either the contact with the person who鈥檚 died or contact with friends and family? Is that a particular thing?

听

julia - It鈥檚 something I鈥檓 extremely concerned about, that the natural grieving process will have鈥� You know, all the people I鈥檝e spoken to or they鈥檙e clients of mine so their grief isn鈥檛 as suspended as it was, it isn鈥檛 as surreal, but for many people who haven鈥檛 sought support or who haven鈥檛 got support, they鈥檙e much more likely to have complex grief and unresolved grief. So if that鈥檚 the blip you mean, I think yes, that will be much higher in huge numbers. And also, parallel to the COVID pandemic, from the dislocation and disconnection, there is a mental health pandemic, so people who have had a mental health diagnosis before lockdown, most of them have done worse. Not all of them, but most of them, it鈥檚 increased their anxieties, it鈥檚 increased their symptoms.

听

Because connection is strong medicine, connection probably is the most healing thing that we have, and that鈥檚 been removed. So I have a very serious worry about the mental health of our nation and the nations round the world, and what鈥檚 strange is that most of the counselling organisations have had less referrals. So somehow people, it seems to me, have been frozen in their pain and not been able to even reach for the support that would make the difference, and that worries me as well.

听

MARK - Thank you so very much for spending the time with us on this podcast this afternoon, Julia.

听

julia - I hope that people who listen, kind of it helps them understand themselves with a bit more self-compassion.

听

SEANEEN - Thank you. Another episode of Mentally Interesting has come to an end. Thanks for listening to us talk about grief, we know it鈥檚 an uncomfortable thing for lots of people to hear about or speak about.

听

MARK - So if you鈥檙e able to share your thoughts on that, on grief or anything else, drop us an email at ouch@bbc.co.uk, putting Mentally Interesting in the subject line, or drop us a line on Facebook or Twitter by searching for 91热爆 Ouch.

听

SEANEEN - If this podcast floats your boat it鈥檒l appear on your device as soon as it gets published when you subscribe to 91热爆 Ouch on the 91热爆 Sounds app. We鈥檒l be back next month when I鈥檒l talk a bit more about mental health and motherhood, so see you then.

听