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This is a full transcript of听1800 Seconds on Autism: 鈥楧o you ever forget to update your face?鈥�, as released on 2 April 2020 by Robyn Steward and Jamie Knight.

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[Jingle: 1800 Seconds on Autism. With Robyn Steward and Jamie Knight.]

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JAMIE - Do you ever get this thing where you sometimes forget to update your face and you鈥檙e feeling an emotion and then someone says鈥�

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RACHEL - Absolutely. Constant resting bitch face.

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JAMIE - Well yeah. And people are like, 鈥淵ou look really grumpy.鈥� And I鈥檓 like, 鈥淥h no, I鈥檝e just not updated my face for a while.鈥� Ee, there鈥檚 a smile.

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RACHEL - Yes, absolutely.

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ROBYN - I have a folder, all the folders are blue, and each person I know has a folder, and then I like put them on to the desktop. So currently I鈥檓 interacting with you, and so all the information about you goes into your folder. So it鈥檚 really easy for me to recall that.

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[music]

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ROBYN - Hello. We鈥檙e so excited to be back. Welcome to Series Two of 1800 Seconds on Autism. This is a podcast about autistic life, presented by two autistic people. I鈥檓 Robyn Steward.

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JAMIE - And I鈥檓 Jamie Knight. We are recording this introduction from our homes due to the coronavirus, so it might sound slightly different to the rest of the podcast. In this first episode we were joined by our producer, Damon, and we read some of your many emails and we phoned up a couple of listeners who got in touch. Amongst other things we鈥檒l be discussing that old chestnut of whether autistic people have empathy, and one of our callers talked about how she really wants to become a police officer.

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ROBYN - We love reading your messages and talking to you, so please keep sending your emails to stim@bbc.co.uk. Stim is spelled. S-T-I-M. If you don鈥檛 yet know what that means you soon will.

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JAMIE - By the way, we鈥檒l be recording some extra podcasts about autistic life in lockdown due to the coronavirus. Please do email us and let us know how you and your family are dealing with it.

ROBYN - Jamie did most of the reading on this episode because when we recorded it my eyes were recovering from some tests I鈥檇 just had. So, over to Jamie for our first email.

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JAMIE - To start from the top, we had some really nice comments. One of them was from Tracey Rear who described us a breath of fresh air. She said exactly, 鈥淲hat a breath of fresh it is.鈥�

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ROBYN -I hope we smell nice.

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JAMIE - Yeah, hopefully it鈥檚 good smelling air. We also had Rachel Kelly say, 鈥淚 listen together with my son, Tom, 11, who has autism and we love the show. It has led to us having many discussions about his autism and has helped me to better understand things from his perspective,鈥� which is frigging awesome!

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ROBYN - Yeah, that鈥檚 really cool.

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JAMIE - Sorry, I鈥檓 very bouncy today.

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ROBYN - You鈥檝e lost loads of weight Jamie.

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JAMIE - I have lost loads of weight.

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ROBYN - Good for you.

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JAMIE - I鈥檓 doing this like 5:2 diet-y thing. It鈥檚 really weird because I鈥檝e been trying to diet for years by changing what I eat which has been almost impossible. But the idea of the 5:2 diet is two days a week I only eat lunch, so rather than change a routine I just skip a routine. Yeah, it鈥檚 just been really, really easy. I don鈥檛 feel particularly hungry anyway.

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ROBYN - That鈥檚 good.

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JAMIE - So I鈥檓 about eight or nine kilos down, which is a lot. I feel like I might float away.

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ROBYN - Oh well, on our breath of fresh air.

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JAMIE - On our breath of fresh air, indeed. I need a sail so we can sail around the internet on our breath of fresh air.

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ROBYN - Well maybe Henry could help with his鈥� Yeah, Henry鈥檚 a bat. He鈥檚 got wings.

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JAMIE - Hmm-hmm. And Lion says he can do the steering.

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ROBYN - Okay, well he鈥檒l be steering us to antelopes.

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JAMIE - He would be steering us to antelopes.

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ROBYN - Well, I expect Damon any second now is going to say, 鈥淵ou鈥檙e not actually talking about the emails, you鈥檙e鈥︹��

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JAMIE - Oh yeah, emails.

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DAMON - Well I was going to say people won鈥檛 know who Henry is.

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JAMIE - He鈥檚 the bat.

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ROBYN - Henry鈥檚 my support bat. He鈥檚 been featured in, I think it was the last show that we mentioned Henry. Jamie鈥檚 got Lion. Do you want to say who Lion is?

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JAMIE - Oh, Lion鈥檚 my big fluffy four-foot long plushy sidekick. He goes everywhere with me. If you ask him he鈥檒l say he鈥檚 17 years old, but he鈥檚 actually been saying that for about five years, so I think he鈥檚 getting a bit shy about his age. Lots of cuddles. He occasionally eats people I don鈥檛 like; it鈥檚 great.

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ROBYN - I can鈥檛 imagine how a four-foot plushie eats a person. Where would they put them?

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JAMIE - Well, they do have to kind of play along if I鈥檓 honest. He does kind of go, 鈥淩ar-rar-rar鈥� and then they go, 鈥淥h no, I鈥檝e been eaten,鈥� and then we all kind of blush and pretend and humour the lion.. and yeah.

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ROBYN - Anyway, I think we鈥檙e really supposed to be talking about these emails.

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JAMIE - Yeah, we鈥檙e so distracted. One of the pieces of feedback which made me giggle a bit was from Daniel Bird. He writes to tell us that he didn鈥檛 like the producer constantly interjecting and interfering. 鈥淭he producer comes across as sneering, obnoxious and as though he鈥檚 looking down on the hosts. It鈥檚 almost like he鈥檚 regarding them as children and inferior. As an autistic adult I find it belittling and hard to listen to.鈥� What do you think, Robyn?

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ROBYN - Well, firstly what I鈥檇 say is that Damon is a really nice guy.

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JAMIE - He鈥檚 great.

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ROBYN - And Damon interjects more often than listeners hear because once we鈥檝e recorded it he works really hard to edit it. Damon is the producer and that鈥檚 a specific job, and Damon is able to, with his interjections, shape the podcast. So things like, there鈥檚 an example in his email about Alan Gardiner, I don鈥檛 know if you want to talk about that?

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JAMIE - Sure. Daniel goes on to talk about the podcast where we interviewed TV鈥檚 Alan Gardiner. I love that it鈥檚 TV鈥檚 Alan Gardiner, as if like he owns him, he lives inside the box.

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DAMON - I wrote that. I thought it was funny.

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JAMIE - He really didn鈥檛 like it when Damon asked Jamie to stop saying hmm-hmm when Alan was speaking and I was doing all my social skills stuff. Active listening skills? Hmm-hmm.

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DAMON - Because Alan was talking and in the background you were going, 鈥淗mm-hmm, aha,鈥� and you get a bit tired of it when you鈥檙e a listener, somebody going, 鈥淗mm-hmm, aha.鈥�

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JAMIE - Aha.

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DAMON - So, yes.

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ROBYN - That is annoying, stop it.

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DAMON - Yeah, exactly, exactly. So it鈥檚 nothing to do with telling him off for being鈥� I don鈥檛 tend to tell Jamie off for being autistic.

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JAMIE - No.

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DAMON - That wouldn鈥檛 go down well.

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JAMIE - No. Lion would try and eat you.

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DAMON - There was an interesting point that arose from me mentioning that wasn鈥檛 there?

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JAMIE - Yeah, about the fact that I鈥檇 been taught these social skills, at great expense and effort, and actually I can鈥檛 turn them off anymore. It鈥檚 just burnt into my brain.

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ROBYN - You did say that it was helpful that Damon told you that you don鈥檛 actually have to do that all the time.

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JAMIE - Yeah, it was nice. It鈥檚 just a little nice thing that makes me feel a bit more comfortable that I don鈥檛 have to worry about it.

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ROBYN - When you鈥檙e trying to understand why somebody says something, like in this case Damon said something to one of us, there you have to remember the context, and context is something that autistic people find very hard. And obviously both of us have a bit of broadcasting experience so we kind of understand the rules of this context. There is a book by Peter Vermeulen called 鈥楢utism is Context Blindness鈥�, which explains, it鈥檚 not actually about physically being blind with your eyes, it鈥檚 a metaphor and it鈥檚 talking about how autistic people can struggle with understanding different contexts and the rules within contexts. But in this context we trust Damon and he鈥檚 the producer. Although to listeners it might seem Damon鈥檚 being rude he鈥檚 really not, he鈥檚 being really helpful.

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JAMIE - Well, occasionally he might have to tell us something six times, and at that point he can get a little bit annoyed. It鈥檚 like, 鈥淛amie, talk slower for the 27th time.鈥� Also I鈥檝e got to now remember to talk slower. That鈥檒l last all of about 30 seconds.

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[jingle: Email stim@bbc.co.uk]

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ROBYN - What we鈥檙e going to do now is we鈥檙e going to do a phone out. Oh, I love phone outs. And we鈥檙e going to speak to somebody who sent us an email, Hannah, who鈥檚 from Wales.

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JAMIE - Hey, Hannah.

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HANNAH - Hi.

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JAMIE - I鈥檓 going to do this really weird thing of reading your email to you so that we can talk about it, so the listeners at home can hear it. So I鈥檒l do my best reading voice. Can you hear the paper? [shuffling sound]

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HANNAH - Yes.

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JAMIE - 鈥淢y name鈥檚 Hannah. I鈥檓 17 and I was diagnosed with Asperger鈥檚 when I was 14, following major spine surgery to correct my scoliosis when I was 12.鈥� Gosh. 鈥淭he trauma from this surgery left me with PTSD symptoms and highlighted my anxiety which led me into counselling where they diagnosed me with autism.鈥� Gosh. And then the bit that made me blush. 鈥淚 love the podcast because it makes me feel much less weird and alone. I feel relaxed and like I can be myself when I listen,鈥� which is awesome.

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DAMON - It鈥檚 really nice.

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JAMIE - Yay!

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ROBYN - Oh, that email kind of made me cry a little bit, kind of in a good way.

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HANNAH - Ah.

ROBYN - Also, Jamie saying, 鈥淗i, my name is Hannah,鈥� really made me laugh because Jamie鈥�

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JAMIE - Do I not look like a Hannah?

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ROBYN - No, you haven鈥檛 got breasts for a start.

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JAMIE - But I鈥檝e got long hair and everything.

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ROBYN - You鈥檝e lost loads of weight as well so you haven鈥檛 even got man boobs anymore. Not that you ever had man boobs.

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JAMIE - How鈥檚 that? Is that better?

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ROBYN - You never had man boobs, and I genuinely meant that as a joke. I鈥檓 sorry, that might not have been funny.

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JAMIE - It鈥檚 okay.

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ROBYN - Thank you so much for sending that email, and just to let you know that you鈥檙e not weird and you鈥檙e not alone.

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JAMIE - No, there鈥檚 lots of us out there. It鈥檚 one of the reasons we made the podcast is that autistic people make up like one per cent to two per cent of the population, but there鈥檚 very little times where you hear autistic people simply being autistic and loving it, that sense of no longer feeling alone or weird or an alien. Gosh, I know exactly what you mean, and I鈥檓 so glad to hear that we were able to help.

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ROBYN - Yeah.

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HANNAH - Thank you.

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JAMIE - I鈥檓 going to move on a bit and read the other bit of your email, because you have put your finger right on a really good topic. 鈥淚t would be really cool to have an episode looking at the stereotypes around autism. For example, the stereotype that autistic people have no empathy, whereas many of us, myself included,鈥� and that鈥檚 in your email rather than me, 鈥渉ave loads of empathy, too much even.鈥�

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HANNAH - Yeah, so really I just found that as soon as I was diagnosed with autism if someone was upset about something they thought that I would be useless. They鈥檇 be like, oh that鈥檚 Hannah, she鈥檚 autistic, she doesn鈥檛 understand. And really actually sometimes I do understand and I can feel empathy for them, so much so that it鈥檚 kind of overwhelming and I get like a sensory overload and then I don鈥檛 know what to do. So I understand and I feel the empathy, I just don鈥檛 know how to use that to help them.

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JAMIE - I think one of the things that I鈥檝e said to a lot of NT鈥檚, it鈥檚 not that we don鈥檛 feel empathy, it just might be that we express it differently. Oh鈥�

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HANNAH - Yeah, exactly.

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JAMIE - NT stands for neurotypical non autistic people. Because we don鈥檛 look like we鈥檙e experiencing empathy people assume we don鈥檛 experience empathy.

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ROBYN - Lots of autistic people, definitely me included, obviously I can鈥檛 speak for everyone because everyone is different, but there鈥檚 this thing called alexithymia. Basically what it means is that you find it difficult to say how you鈥檙e feeling, like to know which emotion鈥� Like you know you鈥檙e experiencing an emotion, and it might also relate to other people, you might see someone else is experiencing an emotion, but not be able to say exactly what that emotion is. But that doesn鈥檛 mean you don鈥檛 feel empathy for the person, especially if you see somebody that looks upset you want to help, you want to do the right thing, because you know what it鈥檚 like to be upset and you don鈥檛 want someone to feel upset.

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HANNAH - Well I guess my scoliosis is a really good example of that, because like I鈥檓 in a lot of Facebook groups and support groups online for that. And it鈥檚 just not knowing really what to say. Like I鈥檓 not really much use in those because someone will say something that really resonates with me that鈥檚 really similar to my own experience, and a lot of the time I don鈥檛 know what to say because I have such overwhelming empathy for them because I鈥檝e been there and I know what that鈥檚 like. And I want to help but it鈥檚 just feeling powerless and helpless because I鈥檓 just confused with what I鈥檓 feeling and what I can do and how to help them.

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ROBYN - Oh yeah, I feel like that. Somebody that I knew, their partner died, and they were somebody that I don鈥檛 know that well but I felt really sad because I understood that, you know, obviously they loved their partner and so that鈥檚 really hard. And I just sent them an email to say like, 鈥淚 just want to reach out to you,鈥� because that鈥檚 something neurotypical people say, but 鈥淚 don鈥檛 actually know what the right thing to say is but I just want you to know that I鈥檓 really sorry that this has happened in your life and if there鈥檚 anything I can do or if you just want to talk please just ring me and I鈥檓 happy to listen.鈥�

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JAMIE - It鈥檚 like a couple of days ago a friend of mine was really stressed with work and getting quite upset, and I could tell that he was upset. And I go to a caf茅 where I鈥檇 normally work but I don鈥檛 speak coffee. So I asked another friend what sort of coffee he likes and I brought him a coffee and took it back and was like, 鈥淚 don鈥檛 know what to do to help because I don鈥檛 understand, but here鈥檚 coffee.鈥� And apparently coffee was the solution.

HANNAH - Oh. That鈥檚 my kind of default. If I think I鈥檓 feeling empathy or I know I鈥檓 feeling empathy but I don鈥檛 really know how to interpret it or what to do with it it鈥檚 like right, instead of trying to think what can I do help it鈥檚 trying to think what can I do to make that person smile or something like that.

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JAMIE - Have you ever got into bad situations? So for example one of the ways that I鈥檓 quite vulnerable is when I鈥檓 really tired I have a lot of empathy for people and then that can lead to them doing things. So for example, if somebody is homeless on the tube if I鈥檓 really spaced out I鈥檒l start talking to them, and if they say, 鈥淥h, come off the tube with me and take me to a cash machine and you can give me some money,鈥� I鈥檇 totally go with them unless someone was with me to go, 鈥淎ctually Jamie, that鈥檚 not safe.鈥�

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HANNAH - I don鈥檛 think I鈥檝e got any examples like that personally, my only ones would be like it鈥檚 made friendships quite difficult for me in the past when I鈥檝e had friends going through something difficult and I haven鈥檛 known what to do with all the empathy I鈥檓 feeling, and then I鈥檝e kind of just done nothing or pushed them away almost. And that鈥檚 not been great sometimes.

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JAMIE - I鈥檓 an engineer, so I鈥檒l say, 鈥淥kay, so you鈥檙e upset about this, this and this, well with my engineer brain what are the inputs, what are the outputs, what are the steps we can take to change things? I try and at least say, you know, here鈥檚 six or seven different ideas for ways you could do something, because I can鈥檛 necessarily help them with the emotional stuff.

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HANNAH - That鈥檚 really interesting.

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ROBYN - Thanks so much, Hannah, for being part of our phone out, because it鈥檚 not a phone in because we phone you, so thanks very much. It鈥檚 been really lovely to talk to you.

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JAMIE - Yeah, it鈥檚 been great.

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HANNAH - Thanks for having me.

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ROBYN - And have a lovely day.

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HANNAH - You too.

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ROBYN - Bye-bye.

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JAMIE - Bye.

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HANNAH - Bye.

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DAMON - Jamie, you said something quite鈥� a bit worrying in that conversation about being taken away by a homeless person.

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JAMIE - Yeah. Ollie, who鈥檚 my support person, who鈥檚 in the room but not paying the blindest bit of attention right now鈥� He鈥檚 not noticed, he鈥檚 still staring at his phone.

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ROBYN - [shouts] Ollie!

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JAMIE - [laughs]

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OLLIE - Yeah.

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ROBYN - You鈥檙e being talked about. Listen.

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OLLIE - I can be talked about without talking too.

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ROBYN - Well yeah, but you might want to interject?

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OLLIE - Don鈥檛 say anything nasty.

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JAMIE - I haven鈥檛 said anything nasty.

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ROBYN - No, we鈥檙e talking about the time you rescued Jamie from being taken advantage of.

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JAMIE - Carted off by a homeless person.

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DAMON - So what do you remember, Ollie?

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OLLIE - Jamie was on the train and then got approached by a wonderful chap who was looking to get some money for a hotel for the night, and Jamie, very helpfully, immediately exited the train with him and then offered to go to a cash machine, and had his card in hand in the train, as if that was going to perhaps help.

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JAMIE - I tried to give him my card and go, 鈥淲ill this work?鈥�

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OLLIE - Yeah. So in the end I think we had a nice chat with him and I think I gave him a fiver and then caught the next train.

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JAMIE - Yeah, and then you got me back on the train and then you were explaining like, 鈥淲here was he going?鈥� and I was like, 鈥淚 don鈥檛 know.鈥� 鈥淲hat could have happened when you got there?鈥� 鈥淥h, I didn鈥檛 think of that.鈥�

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OLLIE - Yeah. It wasn鈥檛 what could have happened, it鈥檚 just that there was no thought to perhaps the next stages.

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JAMIE - Yeah, or the safety.

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OLLIE - And he seemed nice but there could have been other people, so who knows?

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JAMIE - And this is about the empathy thing sometimes being like a vulnerability.

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OLLIE - Too much empathy.

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[jingle: You鈥檙e listening to 1800 Seconds on Autism]

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ROBYN - We鈥檝e got somebody else on the line. That means that we鈥檝e phoned them and that we鈥檙e going to speak to them on the phone, and it鈥檚 Rachel. Hello, Rachel.

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RACHEL - Hello.

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ROBYN - Where are you talking to us from?

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RACHEL - Somerset.

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ROBYN - Oh!

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JAMIE - Oh, Somerset. Where in Somerset?

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RACHEL - Taunton.

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JAMIE - Oh my god. I grew up in Taunton.

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RACHEL - Oh, no way?

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JAMIE - That鈥檚 amazing. Cool. Thank you for your email, your email was really cool.

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RACHEL- Oh, thank you.

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JAMIE - The thing that jumped out at us the most is that you鈥檙e training to be a police officer, but there鈥檚 so much other stuff to cover too. So what do you do at the moment?

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RACHEL - I work in an office that deals with anything to do with children鈥檚 services for the Somerset County Council. So that鈥檚 social work and that kind of thing.

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JAMIE - Gosh. God, the memories. I know that building incredibly well.

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ROBYN - And what are you training to be at the moment?

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RACHEL - I鈥檝e passed everything that I need to pass to become a police officer. I鈥檓 literally just waiting on the force medical adviser to okay me based on my medical history.

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JAMIE - What鈥檚 drawing you to be a police officer?

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RACHEL - From being very, very young and watching it on TV, like 鈥楾he Bill鈥� for example. I鈥檝e always wanted to have that role. It鈥檚 always felt like something I鈥檇 fit really well into. Yeah, it just makes a lot of sense to me being a police officer.

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JAMIE - When I was at primary school I appointed myself the playground police, obviously, because I liked all of the rules, and I used to run around with my hands above my head doing police lights and then like telling people off for running around. Which did not make me many friends at all. But I kind of understand the urge to鈥�

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RACHEL - No, but I understand, yeah, rules and routine and structure. It makes a lot of sense to me.

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JAMIE - A friend of mine is a police officer and he says that the main thing that he learnt from being a police officer for three years was not to judge situations by the initial appearance. He had to teach himself not to make assumptions. And he said that when he鈥檚 worked with autistic police officers that was almost their best skill, that they didn鈥檛 make assumptions and they reacted to the information in front of them, not what they assumed had happened.

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RACHEL- I鈥檝e dealt with situations in my life, what I would call emergency situations where I鈥檝e had to deliver first aid and I鈥檓 very good at detaching myself from that. I saw very clearly what I needed to do to fix the problem and to deal with the situation, whereas the person that was with me didn鈥檛, she was very much like, woah.听

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JAMIE - The emotions took over.

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RACHEL - Yeah.

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ROBYN - This kind of relates to earlier on today. We were talking to Hannah about empathy. The situation you鈥檙e just describing, like a non-autistic person, they might presume, oh, well Rachel doesn鈥檛 care about how that person鈥檚 feeling because she鈥檚 doing the first aid, when actually that鈥檚 the opposite because you do care, that鈥檚 why you鈥檙e giving the first aid because that鈥檚 the way to solve the problem.

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RACHEL - Absolutely. And I do have empathy, I feel for other people and the situations, it鈥檚 perhaps how my delivery of that empathy is different.

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JAMIE - Yeah. Do you ever get this thing where you sometimes forget to update your face?

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RACHEL - Yeah, absolutely.

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JAMIE - And you鈥檙e feeling an emotion and then someone says you look鈥�

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RACHEL- I call it constant resting bitch face.

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JAMIE - Well yeah. That鈥檚 basically what happens to me.

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ROBYN - Yes, it鈥檚 true. Yeah.

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JAMIE - I鈥檓 sat there and people are like, 鈥淵ou look really grumpy,鈥� and I鈥檓 like, 鈥淥h no, I鈥檝e just not updated my face for a while.鈥� Ee, there鈥檚 a smile.

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RACHEL - Yes, absolutely.

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JAMIE - But it goes the other way too. I can get really upset and be sat there smiling. It鈥檚 like, 鈥淎re you okay?鈥� 鈥淵eah, I鈥檓 fine.鈥� Actually, no I鈥檓 not fine.

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ROBYN - When I was a teenager people would often say, 鈥淐heer up love, it might never happen.鈥�

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RACHEL - Oh, I hate that.

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ROBYN - Yeah.

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JAMIE - What might?

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ROBYN - Well, exactly. But I think what they鈥檙e referring to is that my face looked like I was upset or grumpy or something, and actually it was just my I鈥檓 concentrating on walking to wherever I鈥檓 going face.

听

JAMIE - Yeah. Yeah, I get that a lot. Sorry, we鈥檙e kind of a bit distracted so鈥�

听

ROBYN - Rachel, what鈥檚 one of the things you鈥檙e looking forward to about being a police officer?

听

RACHEL - Definitely one of the things would be the use of the uniform. I like the idea of being provided with my work uniform for every day, rather than having to think about that.

听

JAMIE - I do the same thing with food and clothing. I basically pre pick all of my clothing, it goes in little boxes on my shelf so I don鈥檛 have to think about it every morning. I never thought of setting up a uniform.

听

RACHEL - A uniform for me is something that makes sense. A lot of things just have to make sense for me, that鈥檚 all I need for my life.

听

JAMIE - Also, it takes me a long time to get used to clothing, but once I鈥檓 used to it I鈥檓 fine, and if it鈥檚 the same clothing every day then I鈥檒l get used to it really quickly and then it stops being an issue.

听

RACHEL - That鈥檚 something I don鈥檛 have to think about. If I go to my wardrobe I haven鈥檛 got to think about what to wear I essentially have a uniform for where I work now really because I wear the same trousers and top, just different colours of the same top.

听

ROBYN - Do you think that being autistic would have any down sides when it comes to being a police officer?

听

RACHEL- I do, yes. I think naturally I鈥檓 a very self-critical person and I always do negatives which is a really strange thing. I often look at things and self-assess it and I do think that I will come across as very unsociable and unwilling to be sociable, and that鈥檚 not the case, I just really do struggle socially. And I know that being a police officer you have to become part of听 team very quickly; you鈥檙e like a little family at work. So that definitely scares me and that does worry me, how I鈥檓 going to create those relationships and maintain them, so that鈥檚 something I鈥檓鈥�

听

JAMIE - Do you plan to disclose to your colleagues that you鈥檙e autistic?

听

RACHEL - I鈥檝e already disclosed through the recruitment process and it has been helpful in that I鈥檝e had discussions with the Representative Workforce Team within Avon and Somerset Police. They鈥檝e been very informative where maybe they wouldn鈥檛 have been before with certain things and processes, and I know that I can call them and ask if I鈥檓 worried about anything. I like to be well informed so that I don鈥檛 walk into a situation blind. So recruitment has completely panicked me the entire thing, but actually is done really well so they鈥檝e been really supportive in that. I鈥檓 not sure if on a personal level when I meet someone I鈥檇鈥� I don鈥檛 really know how to say it. Is that weird? I don鈥檛 want to say, 鈥淥h hi, I鈥檓 Rachel, I鈥檓 autistic.鈥� I don鈥檛 want it to be an excuse for anything that they find negative about me.

听

ROBYN - You could do, I think it鈥檚 called a partial disclosure, but basically, so for me for example I don鈥檛 really make eye contact with people, and if I鈥檓 meeting somebody and I also sometimes, I might come across as a bit rude. So if it was someone I was working with like a colleague, obviously not somebody that you鈥檙e arresting, obviously you wouldn鈥檛 tell them, but if it was a colleague I would just say, 鈥淟ook, if I ever do anything that is rude or comes across disrespectful please just tell me because sometimes I can be a bit blunt.鈥� Or if I thought eye contact was going to be a problem I might just say, 鈥淚 find that making eye contact means I can鈥檛 concentrate properly, so please don鈥檛 think I鈥檓 trying to be rude or that I鈥檓 not listening.鈥�

听

JAMIE - Sometimes you can describe all the things about being autistic, so I might say, 鈥淥h, I need to use my energy very carefully, I can get very distracted. I tend to be very literal with things and I might not react the way that most people do.鈥� I can describe it that way or I can describe it to people as, 鈥淥h, I have a really good focus on things, give me tasks that require lots of focus. I鈥檓 really good at structuring things.鈥� So I try and talk about the positives and then try and shape things towards giving me more tasks that go with my strengths rather than necessarily advertising my challenges.

听

DAMON - Robyn, sorry, can we ask Hannah鈥� Oh, sorry, Hannah. I鈥檓 just jumping in again.

听

ROBYN - Rachel.

听

DAMON - Oh no, Hannah was the last one. Sorry, that鈥檚 really disrespectful.

听

ROBYN - This is Rachel and she鈥檚 got a one-year-old son and she lives in Taunton and she works for Somerset Children鈥檚 Services [laughter] and she鈥檚 going to become a police officer and she鈥檚 just waiting for her medical to come back and she likes uniforms.

听

DAMON - I know. She鈥檚 the person as well like Hannah was鈥�

听

ROBYN - Yes, but she鈥檚 called Rachel. You see, in my head I鈥檝e got this folder, like if it was a computer it would be a folder, but it鈥檚 probably a bunch of brain cells, but essentially, to use a metaphor, I鈥檝e got a folder in my head and when I learn about somebody I put all the information about that person in the folder. So as long as I can say like I鈥檝e met other Rachels and other Hannahs, and I can spell the two ways of spelling Hannah and I can spell Rachel, which means I can label the folders in my head and then it doesn鈥檛 matter that I don鈥檛 know what you look like because I don鈥檛 recognise faces, I don鈥檛 even know what I look like. So that doesn鈥檛 matter. I have a folder, all the folders are blue, and each person I know has a folder, and then I like, put them on to the desktop so currently I鈥檓 interacting with you, and Jamie and Louisa and Ollie and Damon and Rod, so I have those folders in my head in front of me, and so all the information about you goes into your folder. So it鈥檚 really easy for me to recall that and distinguish you between Hannah, because Hannah鈥檚 got a separate folder and her information is currently closed because we鈥檙e not talking to Hannah because we already talked to her. But your folder is open because I鈥檓 talking to you.

听

JAMIE - Robyn, you鈥檙e frigging amazing.

听

DAMON - It鈥檚 the most incredible thing I鈥檝e ever heard.

听

JAMIE - Versus me, I鈥檓 like, am I going to talk to her again tomorrow? No. Okay, I don鈥檛 care, I鈥檒l just forget it and I don鈥檛 care.

听

DAMON - Can I just add that if that鈥檚 how autistic people think鈥�?

听

ROBYN - Well, it鈥檚 not everyone obviously.

听

DAMON - Everybody. If that鈥檚 how all autistic did think then that would sound like a darn amazing police force out there.

听

JAMIE - Oh, you鈥檙e taking it back to the topic.

听

DAMON - Yeah, I am taking it back to the topic.

听

ROBYN - Yeah, and that鈥檚 clever. Rachel, does your brain work a bit like that?

听

RACHEL - If I鈥檓 interested in something, so horses or like space or I have a subject I want to learn about I know so much information about that, but if you鈥檙e talking to me about cars I haven鈥檛 got a clue. I don鈥檛 take it in, I don鈥檛 retain it. If there鈥檚 no space in my brain for it I鈥檓 not interested. So I鈥檓 very orderly and controlled with the information that I want, or that I鈥檓 interested in or that I can handle, and then the routine and structure is very interesting as well for some people because you would probably come and look at my life and think, she said she鈥檚 autistic but like her house is a mess. But because if order isn鈥檛 already implemented in my life, if I have to implement order I find it really hard. But if someone came in and said, 鈥淭here鈥檚 your timetable, there鈥檚 your structure, there鈥檚 your order, crack on,鈥� I鈥檇 be like right, okay this is what I鈥檝e got to do with my day. Like do this, this and this, blah, blah, blah.

听

JAMIE - That鈥檚 exactly the way I set up my support, which is I work with the support to build a routine and then I ask the support people to impose the routine on me.

听

ROBYN - Do you have a horse?

听

RACHEL - I used to, but I don鈥檛 now.

听

ROBYN - What was your horse called?

RACHEL - She was called Savannah.

听

ROBYN - What kind of horse was Savannah?

听

RACHEL - She was an Arab cross Hanoverian.

听

ROBYN - Well I don鈥檛 know that that means. What does that mean?

听

RACHEL - She was cross. Her mother was full Arab and her father was a Hanoverian. So they鈥檙e two different types of horse.

听

ROBYN - Oh.

听

JAMIE - When you said that your horse was cross I just imagined a really grumpy horse.

听

RACHEL - She wasn鈥檛 grumpy but she was interesting.

听

JAMIE - Do you want to be a police horse person?

听

RACHEL - Yes, that would be my dream.

听

JAMIE - Mounted police. That would be amazing.

听

RACHEL - Mounted police has always been my dream.

听

ROBYN - Do they have mounted police in Avon and Somerset?

听

RACHEL - They do. Yeah, quite a big force.

听

JAMIE - They do, I think the third or fourth largest, because it鈥檚 so rural.

听

ROBYN - So how would you go about becoming a mounted police woman?

听

RACHEL - Police officer training has changed, so within Avon and Somerset we have to do a degree which is a three-year degree apprenticeship. So once I鈥檝e completed that I will be a fully-fledged officer if you like and I鈥檒l be eligible to apply. So if a position becomes available as a mounted officer then absolutely I would be putting myself forward.

听

JAMIE - And of course you鈥檝e already got skills and knowledge there, so there鈥檚 this thing that a lot of autistic people do which is we have a strong interest and then we build a path towards exploiting it for our work.

听

RACHEL - Absolutely. I didn鈥檛 do very well at school, I struggled massively with school, and when I left school I tailored my education, I wanted to just learn about horses, so I did. I went to college to learn about horses and got a degree in equine science and I did what I wanted.

听

JAMIE - Oh, wow. Before we hang up, because we鈥檙e going to run out of time, I鈥檝e got a couple more questions for you.

听

DAMON - A couple!

听

JAMIE - Okay, one more, one more. And it is that you鈥檙e an autistic parent, and that sounds really interesting. How has being autistic do you think impacted your parenting?

听

RACHEL - I think it鈥檚 challenging for anyone, I鈥檓 not trying to take that away from any mum, but someone who has the challenges that you have as an autistic person definitely. He鈥檚 very noisy, he鈥檚 very loud and I love him to bits but I do think that, especially as he鈥檚 growing, I worry that there may be issues with communication and I don鈥檛 want to hold him back in any way. So I guess I struggle with that.

听

JAMIE - I have what might be a rude question, so you do not have to answer this.

听

RACHEL - Okay.

听

JAMIE - Would you prefer if your baby was autistic or neurotypical?

听

RACHEL - It鈥檚 not a rude question at all actually, and I鈥檝e thought about it an awful lot. I don鈥檛 mind, I really don鈥檛 mind, but I think I鈥檇 worry for him if he were. I don鈥檛 want him to go through what I鈥檝e had to go through I think, is all I feel there.

听

ROBYN - Both my mum and dad identify as autistic and neither of them have chosen to seek a diagnosis. I asked my mum about whether she would rather that I was neurotypical or not and she said to me, she said, 鈥淚鈥檓 not sure if I鈥檇 know what to do if you were neurotypical.鈥� I think there are parents who are autistic who also have neurotypical kids and they do fine. There鈥檚 something about obviously your child is your child and you鈥檙e connected to them, and I think that every parent is learning as they go along.

听

RACHEL - Massively, yeah.

听

ROBYN - Thank you, Rachel.

听

JAMIE - It鈥檚 been really great to talk to you.

听

RACHEL - Thank you for having me. Bye.

ROBYN - Bye. That鈥檚 almost it for this episode, but before we go, here鈥檚 some good news. Since we recorded our chat with Rachel we found out that she鈥檚 been accepted into the police force. Hurray!

听

JAMIE - And, inspired by Rachel鈥檚 thoughts on uniform I鈥檝e returned to wearing the exact same clothes every day. My own uniform if you like. It gives me one less thing to think about.

听

ROBYN - We love speaking with you, so if there鈥檚 something you鈥檇 like to talk about or a topic you think we should cover email us please on our clever bespoke address: stim@bbc.co.uk. We鈥檒l soon be recording short programmes about how you鈥檙e faring during the coronavirus pandemic. Personally, I think we should be saying Covid-19 because common colds can be coronavirus. It鈥檚 more of a type of virus than it is specific, and specifically we have a pandemic of Covid-19. But anyway, we鈥檒l be smuggling episodes鈥� I don鈥檛 know that we will actually be smuggling them, but we鈥檒l be putting them onto the podcast feed so that they鈥檙e easy to find. But they鈥檒l be shorter than these ones.

听

JAMIE - That was Robyn Robyn-ing at 10 times Robyn-ing factor. That was brilliant. If you enjoy 18000 Seconds on Autism please subscribe on 91热爆 Sounds or wherever you get your podcasts from. The studio manager today was Rod Farquhar. The producer was Damon Rose, but apparently we鈥檝e got a new producer for the rest of the series. How mysterious.

听

ROBYN - Goodbye.

听

JAMIE - Goodbye.