91Èȱ¬

Downloaded from www.bbc.co.uk/radio4

THE ATTACHED TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT.Ìý BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE 91Èȱ¬ CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY.

Ìý

Ìý

IN TOUCH – Be My AI; Orla Guerin in Yemen

TX:Ìý 19.09.2023Ìý 2040-2100

PRESENTER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý PETER WHITE

Ìý

PRODUCER:ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý BETH HEMMINGS

Ìý

Ìý

White

Good evening.Ìý Later today an extraordinary story about an extraordinary boy.

Ìý

Clip – children in classroom

Ìý

White

The account of a young blind boy in war torn Yemen, a pupil turned teacher and we’ll be talking to the 91Èȱ¬â€™s correspondent who brought us this story – Orla Guerin.

Ìý

But first, only a few months ago on this programme we were reflecting on a growing development which it seemed could revolutionise the way blind people see the world.Ìý While many news outlets were worrying about the effects the growth of artificial intelligence, or AI, might have on the way we live, indeed our very existence, there was excitement amongst tech savvy blind people that an increasingly sophisticated use of AI, called Be My AI, could provide a picture of our surroundings – the external environment, print material or pictures in print material, even the people we meet.Ìý But now, just as this exciting possibility has been offered with one hand, it seems it could be snatched away with the other.Ìý Concerns about privacy, particularly the processing of human images, of human faces, could be threatening some of the system’s most useful features.

Ìý

Well, the 91Èȱ¬â€™s correspondent in the United States, Sean Dilley, himself blind, is one of those who’s been using it and he’s been investigating these changes.Ìý He joins us to explain what’s going on.

Ìý

Sean, first, I mean just tell us a bit more about Be My AI and how it can be used to enhance the lives of visually impaired people.

Ìý

Dilley

Many people who are blind and very low vision would already be aware of an app that was available called Be My Eyes and that app, for the longest time, has paired visually impaired people with sighted volunteers who agree to take calls and essentially it might be something as simple as – Can you help me find my keys.Ìý What has been introduced under, what they call, beta testing, to 15,000 users so far, me among them, is the use of an artificial intelligence engine, which, essentially, interprets everything that the camera sees and it has a really, really, really scarily good go at telling you exactly what’s around in all sorts of detail, much more than any human would manage.Ìý I was in a café in Washington DC that I didn’t know, a couple of weeks ago, it told that there were people sitting at tables, it told me that there was a restroom to the left with the men on the left and the women on the right and it started offering to read me menu heading sections.Ìý So, it really is next level stuff.

Ìý

Be My AI

There are several types of bagels listed – plain, sesame, cinnamon raison…

Ìý

White

But with this problem that we’ve got now, what would you hear now if you tried to do this?

Ìý

Dilley

Since last weekend, when you take any photo that has any human face in it, this is what it spits back at you.

Ìý

Be My AI

The image you uploaded was blocked because it may contain faces or people.

Ìý

Dilley

I caught on social media other users explaining the frustrations that they’d had.Ìý One of those social media users, Clare Randall, posted her experience to Facebook and I caught up with her to discuss that.

Ìý

Randall

Now you can’t rely on it basically.Ìý I couldn’t use it out and about.Ìý I couldn’t go to a shopping centre and take pictures of shops around me because there are likely people in them.Ìý I couldn’t go into a café and try and find a counter because there are going to be people.Ìý So, it’s not going to allow me to see any of it.Ìý We’ve got CCTV everywhere in the UK, people have Ring doorbells where your videos are uploaded to their servers, you get bloggers and Instagrammers and people out filming their kids in parks and that kind of thing where your picture is potentially going to end up in somebody’s camera reel, if you will.Ìý So, we are already photographed on a constant basis, it’s just that now it’s almost saying you’re deliberately taking pictures but I’m not, I’m just looking with my camera at the same thing as you would be looking at if you walked down the street.Ìý And it does seem like somebody’s said – I know what we’ll do, let’s give blind people the opportunity to see what’s around them – and somebody’s turned around and gone – no, that’s a step too far.Ìý And it may now be an intentional thing but that’s how it comes across to a blind person.

Ìý

White

That was Clare Randall.Ìý Let’s go back to this issue of freedom because this is really interesting.Ìý I’ve been looking on Facebook as well and the kind of things that people are saying is – people can see when somebody is a particular shape, where Uncle Harry or Auntie Sally is a bit, let’s say, overweight, why should we be denied the same information?

Ìý

Dilley

It is a good question and as a user I mean I’m right there with you.Ìý But the other side, and it’s a serious point, is the difference is when people see Aunt Sally and whether she is or isn’t rotund, would Aunt Sally, if she was walking the street, be happy with somebody taking a photo and it does essentially, it has to upload it to the internet in some way.Ìý One of the concerns of privacy campaigners about all AI, not specifically this, is what happens to that data.Ìý Now the people who make the GPT4 engine that powers this, I think they say they generally only retain whatever data they have for a maximum of 30 days but, Peter, the ethical issues are enormous.Ìý For example, is it allowed not just to say that your Aunt Sally is a bit rotund?Ìý This day and age where, for example, we’re very conscious of not misgendering people, can it even say your Aunt Sally is a woman?

Ìý

White

But, as you’ve said Sean, much of the work on this has been developed by the organisation Be My Eyes, along with a company called Open AI, well earlier in the year, we spoke to Be My Eyes Chief Executive Mike Buckley, you’ve caught up with him more recently since these developments, how he’s reacting now?

Ìý

Dilley

I did, Peter, yes and I asked him why he thinks this feature has been blocked.

Ìý

Buckley

There are various regulations around the world that place a greater restriction on visual information, description, identification etc.Ìý If you’re Open AI and you’re navigating the incredibly complex patchwork of law and regulation here, we just have to be thoughtful and careful.Ìý So, as you get closer to kind of generally launching something like this, you know, you do a much deeper look at what the regulatory landscape is.Ìý You know, shame on us for not communicating better about the change as it happened, I think it took Be My Eyes a little bit of time to kind of communicate what’s going on.Ìý It’s not fair that people who are blind and low vision would not have access to these tools and so we’re going to do everything in our power to make it work and that’s going to require working with regulators, that’s going to require working with blindness organisations and it’s going to require advocacy and it will also require some technical prowess.Ìý I don’t think this will happen but I think the worst-case scenario is you launch this app and for a period of time it won’t have face descriptions.Ìý But, again, I think we’re going to get past this.Ìý We should be able to find a way to reasonably protect privacy while enabling people who are blind and low vision to have people access to the world.Ìý The harder part is getting there, right and deciding where to draw the lines but I don’t think anybody disagrees with the end game.

Ìý

White

That’s Mike Buckley, Chief Executive of Be My Eyes.

Ìý

Just to come back to you, finally, Sean, what do Open AI say about this because they’re the people who have made this decision at the moment, as far as we understand it?

Ìý

Dilley

They’re saying nothing about it publicly.Ìý We’ve approached them for an interview.Ìý So, unfortunately, there’s very little light we can shed on behalf of Open AI on this one.

Ìý

White

Okay.Ìý So, Sean, given that in science you can’t usually put the genie back in the bottle, how at risk do you think we are of losing this development that seemed so promising?

Ìý

Dilley

Everything and everyone I’ve been speaking to indicates that the functionality will return to some extent.Ìý It’s also possible that given, as we understand it, that this entire privacy experimentation has followed very restrictive laws in one particular jurisdiction it’s possible that you could end up seeing this function differently in one part of the world to another, almost an international postcode lottery of independence.

Ìý

White

This is a story we’re clearly going to continue to follow.Ìý Sean Dilley, thank you very much indeed.

Ìý

Now one of the things I like to think is an In Touch trademark is featuring blind people who’ve done things which illustrate just how capable we can be and which go way beyond simply coping.Ìý Well, the other morning I was lying in bed listening, as I habitually do, to the Today programme when I heard an item which made me think we would have been proud to have featured that.Ìý And so, I wanted to give it another airing here on In Touch for the many people who may have missed it.

Ìý

Our Senior International Correspondent Orla Guerin has been in Yemen, where, although there’s been a ceasefire in its civil war last year that only lasted for six months and the situation is far from stable.

Ìý

Today package – Orla Guerin in Yemen

I’m on the outskirts of the city of Taiz in a farming community surrounded by mountains.Ìý I’ve come to meet a young boy I first met two and a half years ago, when he was nine years old, he’s called Ahmed and he was teaching a class in his local school – a bombed out shell of a building.Ìý We’ve come back to catch up with Ahmed and see how things are with him, with the school and with the war that he’s grown-up in.Ìý He’s been blind from birth.

Ìý

I’m sitting with Ahmed and three of his sisters, who are also blind.Ìý He’s in a blue shirt with a navy trim and a navy waistcoat and he’s smiling, just the way I remember him.Ìý

Ìý

When was the last time you heard fighting and explosions?

Ìý

Ahmed – translated

Last night, it was very scary, we are scared of gunshots.Ìý When the fighting starts, we can’t go to the park or the valley or anywhere.Ìý It’s worse now.Ìý We only heard gunshots before, now we hear bomb explosions, shooting – everything.Ìý When we hear it, we get scared and hide.

Ìý

Guerin

This was Ahmed as we first heard him – loud and clear.Ìý He was leading morning assembly at Al Wahda primary school.

Ìý

Class noises

Ìý

Guerin

Ahmed wasn’t just the star pupil; he was standing in as a teacher in a classroom with no windows and no desks.Ìý He gave us a wish list of repairs for the school and our audience responded.

Ìý

Well, I’ve just come into the yard of the Al Wahda primary school and what a difference since my last visit.Ìý To my right there’s a brand-new school block, there are six classrooms, it looks like a proper school.Ìý

Ìý

Inside one of the new classrooms, we see rows of wooden desks and benches and four walls and a roof, as Ahmed requested.Ìý A Yemeni donor built the new block and a British charity donated the equipment.Ìý Ahmed sits in the front row giving the changes top marks.

Ìý

Ahmed – translated

I asked for a school, so we can study and learn.Ìý And for those who come after us.Ìý I hope I can study and learn until the end of time and that the school will get even better.

Ìý

Guerin

What do you want to do when you finish school – what job?

Ìý

Ahmed – translated

I want to be a teacher and a pilot and an engineer and a driver or a doctor.Ìý I want to be everything.

Ìý

Guerin

Do you think you’ll be able to do all these things?

Ìý

Ahmed – translated

Yes, sure.Ìý I will do everything and I will marry a beautiful girl from the city and she will make me biscuits.Ìý The girls in the village don’t know how to make good biscuits.Ìý The city girls can make delicious biscuits, so good you lick your fingers.

Ìý

Guerin

As the sun goes down, Ahmed splashes about in the river near his home.Ìý He has already overcome so much.Ìý This child of war is full of hope.Ìý

Ìý

White

It’s a wonderful piece and I’m delighted to say that we’re joined by Orla, who, although she’s very busy in Ukraine at the moment, has taken the time to join us.Ìý I just wanted to ask you a bit more Ahmed.Ìý We hear that wonderfully alive voice but perhaps can you tell us a bit more about him – what does he look like?

Ìý

Guerin

He’s the most incredibly lively character, Peter and when I think of him, what I always think of is his smile, which really lights up his face.Ìý He’s very curious, he’s very humorous, he’s full of enthusiasm for life, he’s an extremely bright, very clever, boy and full of ambition and full of hope.

Ìý

White

Is it a school specifically for blind pupils where he’s teaching?

Ìý

Guerin

Not at all Peter.Ìý And when we went to the school the first time, it was January of 2021, on a previous visit to Yemen and we went to the school simply to take a look at how children were trying to learn in these awful conditions, literally sitting in the rubble in the shell of a building and we noticed Ahmed taking part in morning assembly, he was leading it.Ìý But nobody said this is a particularly special boy, we just saw him and you know assembly finished and he disappeared into a classroom.Ìý And my colleague, our cameraman, Gogte [phon.] happened to look into classroom and saw him actually standing at the front and realised he was teaching and then we also learned he was blind.Ìý All of the teaching that he does is based on repetition, this is how he learns.Ìý We were assured by the teachers there that he was not only the top student but also that he was a fantastic stand in teacher.Ìý And when I said to him – do you have any trouble keeping order – and he said – not at all, they do exactly what I say.

Ìý

White

I can imagine that.Ìý I sat up in bed, sharply, when I heard him talk, you would, wouldn’t you?Ìý How come that he was teaching?Ìý I mean is there a shortage of teachers available or is it just that he’s so unusual that the get him to do it?

Ìý

Guerin

Well, education in Yemen sadly is another casualty of the civil war, which has dragged on now for almost a decade.Ìý And just to give you a bit of wider context.Ìý More than two million children across the country are out of school and as many as 20% of the schools are not in use.Ìý So, in Ahmed’s area there are teachers employed to come to school, sometimes they come and sometimes they don’t.Ìý Many teachers, like many doctors, in Yemen have not been paid in years.Ìý So, the teachers don’t always turn up.Ìý And on occasions when they don’t turn up Ahmed is very, very happy to stand in.Ìý And initially when I met him, he told me at that time that his ambition was to be a teacher, now this time when we went back there were a few more job descriptions added to the long list of things that he wants to do.Ìý But I think teaching is very much in his heart.

Ìý

White

We’ll come on to one of those ambitions in a minute but I noticed you mentioned he has three blind sisters, I mean how are they doing and can you tell us a bit more about them and I wonder what their prospects are, are they as good as a boy’s would be in Yemen?

Ìý

Guerin

Well, I think, the family is certainly in a very difficult situation.Ìý There are four children in total who are blind and then another child who is partially sighted.Ìý But Ahmed’s father, although he’s of modest means, he and his wife are clearly firm believers in education and they have sent all of their children to be educated, despite the difficulties.Ìý Now when we originally met Ahmed, we had hoped that we might be able to arrange for him to begin to learn braille and there was a braille teacher available in the nearby city of Taiz but, you know, his family was understandably very concerned about him having to travel every day from a frontline area into the city, so it wasn’t possible to arrange that tuition for him.Ìý And it’s worth pointing out that where he lives is still just 600 metres from an active front line and even though the ceasefire in Yemen was in effect for six months and it has generally been quieter since, this is still a country at war.

Ìý

White

I’m not sure whether you’d know about this but I was just wondering whether the prospects for blind girls in Yemen might be a bit more limited than for blind boys?

Ìý

Guerin

Well, it can often be the case in Yemen and across the Arab world that women that women are given fewer opportunities and find fewer opportunities later on in the workplace.Ìý I think with Ahmed’s sisters their father is certainly making sure that they receive an education but certainly there is still pressure on Yemeni women often to marry and have children and indeed sometimes to marry young.Ìý So, they will certainly face a different set of circumstances and probably a different set of expectations than Ahmed will.

Ìý

White

Just one last thing Orla, prompted really by that point you were making, you come across as a very strong and successful woman, I wondered if you thought that however wonderfully capable Ahmed comes across as he might take a few lessons in equality, wouldn’t you expect him to be able to make his own biscuits?

Ìý

Guerin

To be honest when he came out with that, I just laughed, I thought it was a classic Ahmed comment and a lot of what he says is very cheeky and very playful and said in fun.Ìý And he has a very sweet relationship with his own sister, Fatima, and he is very protective of her.Ìý So, I think at heart I have no doubt that Ahmed will want the best for his sisters as much as for himself.

Ìý

White

Well, Orla, thank you for telling us that great story.

Ìý

Guerin

My pleasure.

Ìý

White

And that’s it for today.Ìý As always, we welcome your comments and experiences.Ìý You can email intouch@bbc.co.uk, leave your voice messages on 0161 8361338 and you can get more information on visual impairment from our website bbc.co.uk/intouch.Ìý From me, Peter White, producer Beth Hemmings and studio managers Amy Brennan and Liam Juniper, goodbye.