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Front Row: Disabled-access ticket booking, Writer Will Ashon, Artists Jane Darke and Andrew Tebbs<?xml:namespace prefix = "o" ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

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TX: 2nd August 2022

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Presenter: Tom Sutcliffe

Producer: Harry Parker

THE FOLLOWING TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT. BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE 91热爆 CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY.

[91热爆 SOUNDS JINGLE]

PRESENTER (TOM SUTCLIFFE):

You鈥檙e listening to Front Row with me, Tom Sutcliffe. Hello. The writer, Will Ashon, left a surprising amount to luck in his new book, The Passengers, soliciting stories from complete strangers, and even hitching his way to some chapters. In just a moment, barring an unforeseen accident, we鈥檙e going to talk about how you structure serendipity. There are times of course when the very last thing you want is a lottery. Also in the studio is Carolyn Atkinson, with us to report on new initiatives to make access to the arts for disabled people less of a game of a chance.

REPORTER (CAROLYN ATKINSON):

It鈥檚 important because it鈥檚 discriminatory to expect someone to pay double to do something that an able bodied person does not have to pay double for.

TOM:

More on that in a moment. And down in Cornwall, they鈥檙e looking at insects. Really looking at insects.

INTERVIEWEE (JANE DARKE):

Working for two or three days, maybe sometimes a week, on a painting of a bird or an insect, we were really...

INTERVIEWEE (ANDREW TEBBS):

Finding the personalities.

JANE:

We were. [Laughs] Partly, yes. And we were doing portraits of the birds, the insects, the mammals, in the same way as we would a human animal.

TOM:

Jane Darke and Andrew Tebbs talk about their work for a new exhibition at Kresen Kernow in Redruth, home of Cornwall鈥檚 archives. First though, The Passengers, the latest book from the novelist and writer, Will Ashon. This isn鈥檛 a novel like his first two books, nor a relatively straightforward work of non-fiction like his third, Strange Labyrinth, which was a kind of psycho-geographical study of Epping Forest. The Passengers is a collage of sorts, a portrait of contemporary Britain, and contemporary anxieties, pieced together from conversations and correspondence with 179 people. And it begins with four very short chapters which amount to a kind of manifesto for itself.

EXTRACTS FROM THE BOOK:

MAN:

I want to stay and stay and never go.

WOMAN:

So that鈥檚 the thing, like you said it鈥檚 interconnected. Everything is interconnected.

WOMAN:

Life is a flux, it鈥檚 constantly moving. It鈥檚 like a river, it just carries on. It happens and moves, it changes.

MAN:

It鈥檚 beautiful to share, you know. I think we are here to share: share happiness; share love; share our things. Our things are not for ourselves, they鈥檙e better when we share them.

TOM:

The opening four pages of Will Ashon鈥檚, The Passengers, which contributes itself to the ethic of sharing as people confess to old guilts, and reveal their doubts and hopes. And Will Ashon joins me now to talk about it. Will, how did this idea first come about? It鈥檚 an unusual book.

INTERVIEWEE (WILL ASHON):

Yeah. You mentioned Strange Labyrinth. It was when I started writing non-fiction, I had a kind of realisation that not being one of the world鈥檚 greatest brains, that rather than writing anything massively original or you know up on the mountain, I was piecing together quotes from books and from people I spoke to into a kind of collage, as you said. Obviously my background was running a hip hop label. Hip hop鈥檚 been a big part of my life, and hip hop is a collage in music. I鈥檇 always kept my fiction and my work life running the label very separate, and suddenly I found this moment where the two things kind of came together. And so that excited me. So then the book I wrote after that was about the Wu-Tang Clan, which was obviously an attempt to write about hip hop in that way. But throughout the time that I was doing that, I was wondering whether there was a way to do it without the kind of thin mortar of me joining it all together with my hilarious anecdotes about falling out of trees and things. So that was what this book was about, it was an attempt to collage without me.

TOM:

You鈥檝e got an epigraph for the book from the Director, Agn猫s Varda, 鈥榗hance has always been my best assistant鈥�. So how much chance did you let in here?

WILL:

It varies from section to section. I mean as you mentioned, I started off, I went to see the film Faces Places with Varda speaking, at the end of September 2018, and that was the kind of starting point for the book because two weeks later I set of hitchhiking. And what I liked about that was the interviewees were picking me rather than me going out and picking them.

TOM:

So it was just a pure chance as to who came down the road.

WILL:

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, whoever stopped. Obviously what you realise quite quickly is that the people who tend to stop tend to be quite generous, kind people anyway, because they鈥檝e stopped for some funny looking guy standing on the roadside. And so going on from that, I tried to keep an element of chance or serendipity in every decision as a whole, to try not to pick the interviewees too much myself. I mean there鈥檚 probably a few that I did but-

TOM:

You sent letters out to addresses that you didn鈥檛 know.

WILL:

Yeah.

TOM:听

How did you pick the addresses?

WILL:

I used a very complicated random number system to make the postcodes. It was incredibly complicated, but it kind of worked. Then I wrote all the letters by hand, which in itself was a massive challenge because my handwriting is terrible.

TOM:

How many answers did you get back then?

WILL:

I got a few, shall we say. A few. More than I got when I sent text messages out. I think people really did think when they received a strange text message, 鈥楾his is a scam鈥�, [laughs] so that one wasn鈥檛 quite so successful. Yeah, and various other things as well, drawing lines on a map and then trying to find people to speak to, somewhere along those lines, things like that.

TOM:听

And also when you had contributors, there was a bit of chance there. You asked them to pick a number from one to ten, did you?

WILL:

Yeah.

TOM:

And then that would be associated with a particular question. What kind of questions?

WILL:

That鈥檚 right. The questions were vague to the point of almost not really being questions at all. Things like, I think one was how does it feel? Another one was, what did it look like? And things like this.

TOM:听

Good open questions though.

WILL:

Yeah. And actually part of that was about controlling my own deficiencies as an interviewer. I have a tendency to jump in and talk over people. When you transcribe 180 interviews and in every one you鈥檙e the person talking at the crucial moment, you have to find ways to hold back, as I鈥檓 sure you know.

TOM:听

Well you鈥檝e brought me on to the business of structuring all of this material. The book clearly has a structure.

WILL:

Yeah.

TOM:

It starts with the shortest, runs up to what seems to be the longest.

WILL:

Yeah.

TOM:

And then runs down again to end with the same phrase that you start with. But not repeating, obviously. You鈥檙e running slowly down in terms of length.

WILL:

Yeah, absolutely. I mean working out how to fit them all together was probably the hardest part of it. I made the stupid mistake of calculating how many variations there are of 180 sections, and I think it鈥檚 43 digits in that number, it鈥檚 a huge, huge number. At which point I absolutely terrified myself and spent about the next month just sitting in my office crying to myself.

TOM:

There鈥檚 a tone in the book of, I mean a lot of people talk about their mental states. Partly I suppose you were doing this in the pandemic.

WILL:

Yeah.

TOM:

So people had a lot of time to think about that and also to worry about it. Did you weight it to stress and mental anxiety, or was that representative of what you got back?

WILL:

No, I think it鈥檚 representative. I didn鈥檛 weight it particularly towards that at all. I think, as you say, it was an interesting time in some ways. When the lockdowns hit, obviously I couldn鈥檛 go hitchhiking anymore, I thought it was going to be a bit of a disaster for the book. But I think actually people had, as you say, a bit more time. They were often at home. They were more willing to talk. And actually they had more to say and were thinking more about their lives and how they live their lives.

TOM:

It鈥檚 a lovely mix, because some of it is philosophical, some of it is political, and then there are just anecdotes. Contingency isn鈥檛 just part of the method of making a book, it鈥檚 a theme that runs all the way through. Let鈥檚 just hear one of the chapters or part of the chapter where that鈥檚 very clear.

BOOK ABSTRACT:

I got caught speeding on a motorbike and I was going to go to court for reasons of this very naught speed. My barrister said, 鈥淲hat do you do?鈥�, and I said, 鈥淥h, I drive white vans鈥�. 鈥淵ou drive white vans? Whatever you do, you need to quit now 鈥榗os they鈥檙e gonna take your licence away. They hate white van men and they hate people on motorbikes. You need to go and find a job that will look good in court鈥�. I had a friend who worked in children鈥檚 homes and he said come and have a go at this. I told my barrister and he goes, 鈥淩ight, you鈥檝e got to do it. You need to do a week and then you can call it your profession鈥�. He made me write this horrible cringey letter about what a wonderful human I am. So I go in there, I say I was sorry, hand them the letter. One of the magistrates threw my letter on the floor, and one of them just gave me the evils throughout, but the chairman and one of the others actually read it and they go, 鈥淭his is a serious business. We鈥檙e going to deliberate鈥�. Anyway, they go in and they come back and they go, 鈥淵ou鈥檝e been a very naughty boy, here鈥檚 six points and a 拢50 fine鈥�. They say, 鈥淒on鈥檛 do it again, and off you go鈥�.

And that was it. That was how I became a child care officer. I go and do the job for a week and I loved it. I really, really like the young people I look after. I鈥檝e had some real moments of beauty. I was once in the car and we were listening to stuff on my phone and there鈥檚 some church worship music, and this girl I was with, she was like, 鈥淥h, what is this? You loser鈥�. It was a little bit stronger than that obviously! She starts listening to it, and then she starts singing along to it. When we get to the end of the journey, she goes, 鈥淲hat the heck was that?鈥�, I was like, 鈥淚 don鈥檛 know what you mean鈥�. She goes, 鈥淲hilst I was singing that, I felt clean and beautiful鈥�. She looked me right in the eyes 鈥� I鈥檓 already choking up 鈥� and she goes, 鈥淵ou know I鈥檝e never felt clean and beautiful in my life before鈥�.

TOM:

You must have been thrilled when you got that story, I mean it鈥檚 got everything, hasn鈥檛 it? It鈥檚 got the shock of it, the motive for taking on this important job, and then it turns around.

WILL:

Yeah. And that鈥檚 the funny thing, that actually doing these interviews the thing that I heard most often was, 鈥淥h, I鈥檝e got nothing to tell you, I鈥檓 really boring鈥�. Literally everybody said it to me. And after you鈥檝e done the first 20 or so, you can quite honestly say to people, 鈥淣o, you have. You have actually got something interesting to say. Just take your time, don鈥檛 worry about it, we鈥檒l get there鈥�. And that was always the case, yeah.

TOM:

You had asked them for the quotidian, hadn鈥檛 you, the every day, in a lot of cases. What鈥檚 so interesting is that some of the stories aren鈥檛 boring, but they鈥檙e really interesting in the way that there鈥檚 a wonderful story where somebody sets out and he gets up in the middle of the night, and he鈥檚 got this plan to go and walk to the nearby port and watch the sun come up. And he never makes it. It鈥檚 all about fear.

WILL:

Yeah.

TOM:

It鈥檚 a very anticlimactic story, but it鈥檚 terrifically worked, I think.

WILL:

Yeah. And it鈥檚 a beautiful little story. It鈥檚 funny, some of them are very carefully edited, some of them just come out like that, and there鈥檚 no telling which ones are going to be which.

TOM:

What were you most surprised by in what you got back from people?

WILL:

I guess if I鈥檓 honest, I was most surprised by some of the intimate things that people discussed with me, which is when you鈥檙e chatting to some stranger over Zoom you don鈥檛 necessarily expect that someone鈥檚 going to open up and talk to you about personal problems. But also, the most hilarious things as well. There鈥檚 one I can鈥檛 repeat on the radio!

TOM:

No, no. But you clearly were a kind of confessor to a degree. There鈥檚 two or three stories where people reveal things that have weighed on them, and it seems almost as though they finally got it off their chest telling you. I don鈥檛 know whether you felt that?

WILL:

Yeah. I mean some of the secrets done weren鈥檛 interviews, you could either record it on my website, or people recorded them on their phones and sent them to me. So then they were talking just to themselves really. And that鈥檚 interesting as well, I think overall across the 180, for me I can notice the different textures that you get from the different ways in which the interview was conducted, whether it was in a car, or on Zoom, or what kind of question was asked.

TOM:

I loved the women who鈥檇 scratched somebody鈥檚 car and never kind of told them. Which is a very common thing, I imagine lots of people have done it. But it had left her permanently unable to watch crime dramas because she said they never got guilt right.

WILL:

Yeah. And it鈥檚 true, once you hear it you think, 鈥榃ell yeah, that is absolutely true鈥�, because everyone knows that horrible stomach churning feeling of guilt that you get over often the smallest things, yeah.

TOM:

It鈥檚 full of wonderful details like that. Thank you, Will Ashon.

WILL:

Thank you. [End of interview]

TOM:

His book, The Passengers, is out now.

Now we鈥檙e off to the archives, a word that generally conjures documents and dust, and the painful deciphering of ancient handwriting. Kresen Kernow in Redruth, that鈥檚 the Cornish for Cornwall Centre, overturns that image. It does have documents and maps and photographs and books, in fact it has the world鈥檚 largest collection of material related to Cornwall鈥檚 history. But as Cornwall鈥檚 state-of-the-art new archive centre occupying what used to be the Redruth Brewery, it has a lot more besides as well, including an exhibition space which is currently home to Habitats as Heritage, an exhibition of 100 paintings by the artists Jane Darke and Andrew Tebbs. Today, they began a month long residency there, one which is going to include workshops and walks and talks and films. Habitats as Heritage was inspired by the Victorian botanical artist, Marianne North, who travelled the world painting plants. Jane Darke and Andrew Tebbs have stayed closer to home, focusing their attention on what鈥檚 on their doorstep and a little beyond. Before we hear from them, Chloe Phillips who curates the exhibitions at Kresen Kernow, explains how the displays and the archives work together.

INTERVIEWEE (CHLOE PHILLIPS):

We鈥檝e got two spaces at Kresen Kernow. Downstairs there鈥檚 three display cases. One celebrates trees and includes material dating back about 500 years, and kind of shows early almost deforestation and trees being cut down and sold. Another case features documents from our collections relating to herbs gathered as medicine, particularly during the Second World War but also the First World War. There鈥檚 reams of material like this in our collections of children gathering foxgloves, rosehips, perhaps things you wouldn鈥檛 usually think about. Then upstairs in the Treasures Gallery, that鈥檚 a dark, controlled space. Quite a sort of special space. Jane and Andrew have completed a 100 paintings of habitats from St Eval and Redruth, and that includes insects and animals and plants as well, maritime habitats, and those on the land. Accompanying that, there鈥檚 three display cases. One features artworks by local artists, and then two feature the herbaria that we have in our archives, so books with pressed seaweeds, pressed flowers. The colours in some of them are nearly 200 years old, but they look like they could have been picked and pressed this summer.

INTERVIEWEE (JANE DARKE):

My name is Jane Darke. I live on the north coast of Cornwall in a very small parish called St Eval. It鈥檚 a farming community with quite a long stretch of coastline. I trained as a painter and I study at the Royal College of Art, but I鈥檝e become most known for making documentary films, three films broadcast on 91热爆4. The last one I made with Andrew about Charles Causley.

INTERVIEWEE (ANDREW TEBBS):

My name is Andrew Tebbs. I make sculpture and paint and make film. I own Tregona Chapel where we are today. It鈥檚 a former Methodist chapel with a lot of connections to the place. We didn鈥檛 want to convert into a holiday home, we wanted to try and keep it available for the community to use. It鈥檚 become the home to what we call St Eval Archive. Initially we started to interview the people that lived in the parish, people鈥檚 stories, the history of the place in stories and photographs, and that kind of moved into becoming also a collection of records of the natural history. So we now have an archive of what we call the St Eval Herbarium, a collection of the pressed flowers that we鈥檝e collected which are specific to places in St Eval.

JANE:

That came out of some workshops that we did with local people. There鈥檚 a Bronze Age settlement within this parish which produced a type of pot which is called Trevisker, which can be found between Dartmoor and Land鈥檚 End. We thought it would be interesting just to try and make that kind of pot, so we gathered clay from streambeds and we made pots. Then another workshop was making ink from oak gall. Another workshop was pressing seaweeds. And once we got into pressing different seaweeds we thought, 鈥榃hy don鈥檛 we make a herbarium of the plants that there are in the parish to go along with the people who are in the parish鈥�.

ANDREW:

Talking about the pressed seaweeds, it came out of a visit you made to Kresen Kernow or the Cornwall Archives, where you saw a collection that was 200 years old in the Cornwall Archive of pressed seaweeds.

JANE:

Which is now in the exhibition at Kresen Kernow to accompany our paintings there.

CHLOE:

The project started in St Eval with the archive that Jane and Andrew run there, and they collected individual habitats, so things like wetlands and seashore from that area. And Jane and Andrew are very inspired by Marianne North, who has a big gallery at Kew Gardens.

JANE:

Marianne was a Victorian whose father was wealthy. Her father left her everything so she didn鈥檛 have to marry. It was suggested to her that because she could paint that she travel the world painting what she saw. So she went to every continent, she went to North America, South America, Australia, New Zealand, she went all over Asia. Extraordinary for a Victorian woman to have done that. She sent her paintings back, and it was the first time that anybody in this country saw those places in colour, because colour photography didn鈥檛 exist. It was quite a phenomenon that people were going in crowds to see her work. And then she had enough money to build a gallery at Kew, and all of these paintings, nearly 900, are there at Kew. It鈥檚 just this room full of blues and pinks and greens and yellows, the vibrant colours of tropical plants.

ANDREW:

Jane discovered the Marianne North collection in Kew Gardens, which was very influential in developing the idea of the project that we now have.

JANE:

It just struck me that this chapel would look wonderful filled with all of the different species, the insects, the birds, the plants, the mammals, that live in this parish. So that鈥檚 what started us on this project really. We thought that we鈥檇 represent this parish in paintings, the habitats. Each habitat is very distinct but they鈥檙e all linked together, and we picked nine habitats in St Eval parish and decided that we would do ten paintings of each. So we had ten paintings for each habitat. For Marianne, what she was looking at was so gorgeous, it was so strange, all those beautiful exotic creatures and plants. But what we were looking at was our home.

ANDREW:

We were looking at paintings that were done 150 years ago. We found it really interesting that a lot of those landscapes, a lot of those habitats, are now probably plantations, all the wildness of the places she painted have disappeared. So we wanted to sort of inspire people to look at their habitats that are closer to home on our doorstep and value them, give them value by spending time painting them.

JANE:

Working for two or three days, maybe sometimes a week on a painting of a bird or an insect, we were really...

ANDREW:

Finding the personalities.

JANE:

We were. [Laughs] Partly, yes. And we were doing portraits of the birds, the insects, the mammals, in the same way as we would a human animal.

ANDREW:

And in that way, we鈥檙e giving them value and we hope that is evident in the exhibition.

JANE:

We also thought that it would be interesting to play at being Victorian botanists. As part of the project we got a bell tent and we dressed up in Victorian costume. Andrew had a top hat, and I had a long dress. Then we went to Redruth Secondary School with forty 14 year olds. We worked with Shallal who work with artists with disabilities. We did two days at St Merryn School where we had every class from the school. And what we did was to gather either plants or we would collect insects in these pots so that they could breathe, and for a short while each person concentrated on a plant or an insect and drew it. One of the best ones we did, what was it?

ANDREW:

Murdoch Day.

JANE:

Was Murdoch Day at Kresen Kernow. There鈥檚 a group called Why Don鈥檛 You...?, which is parents and children. It was the most wonderful day. I was running around in the undergrowth with small children, and then we鈥檇 find some funny insect, 鈥淭his is a fly, I don鈥檛 want a fly鈥�, and I鈥檇 say, 鈥淟ook, it鈥檚 got a yellow stomach, what is that?鈥�, and then I鈥檇 say, 鈥淕o and give it to Andrew and he鈥檒l look it up for you鈥�. Then in the tent they had paints and they would paint it. They were completely absorbed, and we鈥檝e got a lot of wonderful drawings that we鈥檙e going to be taking with us into the residency for those people to show their work. It was about getting other people involved, and also in the way that we had become absorbed in plants and birds and insects, give them a chance to do the same thing.

CHLOE:

When we started talking in partnership, we said about capturing some of the areas of Redruth as well, because that鈥檚 where we鈥檙e situated, and Redruth has a different variety of habitats to St Eval. We鈥檙e inland. It鈥檚 a former mining area. So it鈥檚 all those kind of different types of habitat that may exist. I think for me, it鈥檚 been extraordinary realising the variety and the diversity kind of on the doorstep. It鈥檚 really made me look at the environment in a different way.

JANE:

When we started walking around Redruth, what really struck us were the trees, because in St Eval they鈥檙e very...

ANDREW:

Stunted and sculpted by the wind.

JANE:

Yeah.

ANDREW:

It鈥檚 such a bleak...

JANE:

They鈥檙e just not here really.

ANDREW:

Yeah. Just hidden in the valleys, aren鈥檛 they.

JANE:

Very hidden. But Redruth is a fantastic town. We were so struck by these huge, beautiful trees. And when we talked to Chloe at Kresen Kernow, she said that鈥檚 really interesting, because they have these photographs of Redruth from 100 years ago and she鈥檇 been trying to take the same photograph now, and she couldn鈥檛 get it because of all the trees that were in the way. [Laughs] Which is really funny.

CHLOE:

The paintings look really special, they almost seem to glow off the wall. And it鈥檚 a lovely new use for our space at Kresen Kernow.

ANDREW:

We wanted to present them in a way that Marianne presented her work, so that the space in the Treasures Gallery, we made like a mini Marianne North gallery amassing them together frame-to-frame covering the entire walls, to give that sense of you know that wow factor.

JANE:

People kept saying, 鈥淲hy are you doing so many?鈥�, and I said, 鈥淵ou have to. We have to do 90鈥�. In fact there are 100 because there are 10 paintings of Redruth as well. It had to be that many to really impress the extraordinary diversity of a very small parish. St Eval is only two and a half miles by three and a half miles [laughs] and all of that life that鈥檚 in those 90 paintings is here, and a whole lot more.

CHLOE:

The exhibition is up until the end of August. That鈥檚 been up since June. But actually from 2 August we have a full programme of events and activities every day that we鈥檙e open in August. Most of that has been coordinated through Jane and Andrew. There鈥檚 talks, walks, film showings, creative workshops, and there really is a really full free programme of things to do at Kresen Kernow this summer all celebrating that kind of habitats and heritage in our lovely building.

[RAVEN CALL]

ANDREW:

I could tell you about a particular painting that I did for the exhibition, which is of ravens and the raven鈥檚 nest, a frozen moment of birds wheeling around and a clifftop and a nest.

JANE:

The reason why we knew the ravens were there was because...

ANDREW:

Yeah, that nest being there for so long.

JANE:

Yeah. My father-in-law, Bob Darke, grew up here, he was born here, and he had watched that nest when he was a boy. And it鈥檚 still being used now. He died 20 years ago. He would be over 100 now.

ANDREW:

All the twigs on that nest, probably some of those twigs are from 50 or 100 years ago built up layer after layer.

JANE:

I have grandchildren. I really want them to be able to have some of the experience of wildlife that I have had in my life, and so I think heritage is inheritance as much as anything. [End of interview]

TOM:

Jane Darke, Andrew Tebbs, and Chloe Phillips of Kresen Kernow in Redruth. The Habitats as Heritage Exhibition continues there until August 27th, after which the paintings, all 100 of them, return to Tregona Chapel in St Eval.

Last year the Government鈥檚 National Disability Strategy made a promise to introduce a new national arts access card. It was intended to make it easier for disabled people to access theatres and concerts and festivals. They said they were going to do it by March of this year. They didn鈥檛. Delivery dates like that aren鈥檛 gospel of course, they do slip a little, but this one has slipped a long, long way. The plan we now learned is for a pilot scheme to be in place by 2024. There is some good news, however, about disabled access ticket booking, and our reporter, Carolyn Atkinson, is in the studio to tell us about it. Carolyn, you鈥檝e been investigating all things accessible for us. Let鈥檚 start with the basic question, why is there a need for a nationwide arts access card?

CAROLYN:

Well I think frustration and inconsistency sum up a lot of people鈥檚 experiences when it comes to the availability and the cost of access tickets, including what are called companion tickets which are needed by some disabled people who need a personal assistant, a PA, or a carer, to enable them to go to an event at all. Have a listen to Andrew Miller who until recently was the Government鈥檚 Disability Champion for Arts and Culture.

INTERVIEWEE (ANDREW MILLER):

One of the principle reasons for my advocating a national arts access scheme, was the lack of any consistency in venues鈥� approach to companion tickets and disabled access. Now as I鈥檝e experienced through a lifetime of event attendance as a wheelchair user, I鈥檝e been buying tickets for 40 years, it鈥檚 literally the Wild West out there for disabled consumers. In some West End theatres I鈥檝e barely been able to view the stage and been charged top dollar for the privilege. In other theatres I鈥檝e encountered disabled loos that can鈥檛 accommodate a standard wheelchair, let alone a Changing Places鈥� toilet that some disabled people need to attend events. There鈥檚 no consistency between how companion tickets are priced. So some make them half price and the disabled person goes full price, others you get a free companion and the disabled person pays a reduced rate. So it varies from venue to venue, and there鈥檚 just no standard. And I think the lack of consistency creates a barrier for disabled audience to engage. I think people want to know what they can expect.

CAROLYN:

And a quick look at Twitter backs Andrew鈥檚 point. Over the weekend I saw a tweet which said 鈥榳hy to book a disabled companion ticket do you have to call the venue? Why not email or website? Feels like a stupid barrier. Also means you have to sit on hold forever when everyone else doesn鈥檛鈥�. And that鈥檚 pretty much how arts lover and arts lecturer, Teresa Heath, feels. She sometimes uses a wheelchair, and then she need a companion ticket for her personal assistant to support her at a venue.

INTERVIEWEE (TERESA HEATH):

Sometimes events I鈥檝e been to will say that there is a PA scheme, a personal assistant ticketing scheme, but it can be very difficult to get hold of anyone. At one event I went to, the so-called access helpline was also their ticketing helpline so it was completely rammed and you couldn鈥檛 get through to anybody. Recently I found information about a really, really good, it鈥檚 a really interesting festival, and I was then therefore really, really surprised to find that they didn鈥檛 have a shred of access information on their website. I mean I was looking for whether they offered PA tickets. I was looking for information as to whether I could get my wheelchair onto the site. Whether there were disabled toilets. Yeah, anything at all. And unfortunately at that point there was absolutely nothing on their website whatsoever.

CAROLYN:

So you contacted them, and what response did you get?

TERESA:

Well initially I didn鈥檛 get a response. I emailed them twice and didn鈥檛 receive anything back. I tweeted a couple of times. I Instagram鈥檇 them and didn鈥檛 get anything back. Eventually a friend of mine re-tweeted one of my tweets and they finally responded to my friend and DM鈥檇 me at that point, and basically said that the main entrance was wheelchair accessible and was there anything else that I needed to know. At that point I took the opportunity to give them quite a long list of things that I would expect to find as pretty basic provision.

CAROLYN:

And so what response have you had so far?

TERESA:

I mean I want to be really encouraging of festivals that are making an effort, and to be fair to them, they have now included a section on access on their website, and they have specified that they are running a PA scheme, so you can obtain a ticket if you need someone to push your wheelchair or whatever it is. As a former festival organiser, I want to be encouraging because I know how hard it is to put on a festival, it鈥檚 really hard work. But what鈥檚 really sad is that access is usually the first thing to be forgotten.

TOM:

By the sound of it, Teresa Heath getting some results there, but having to fight for it. What does the law say disabled people are entitled to?

CAROLYN:

Well it is a battle, and it鈥檚 all about making what are called 鈥榬easonable adjustments鈥�. It鈥檚 the Equality Act that applies to theatres, concert halls, comedy clubs, cinemas, basically anyone offering a service to the public. According to the Equality and Human Rights Commission in England, Scotland and Wales, this could be things like making changes, providing information in programmes or publicity material in alternative formats. Or, I quote from their document, offering an additional ticket for free to a disabled person who needs to bring an assistant.

TOM:

There clearly is some level of good will from the theatres here, Carolyn. Some places are doing things well and offering good access and support, are they?

CAROLYN:

Absolutely. But to find out really what鈥檚 going on because of this inconsistency, I sort of decided to do a little survey. I went on to websites and found out what was happening when someone actually tries to book an access ticket. Certainly some make it clear that a free companion ticket is available if a disabled person needs a PA. UK Theatres鈥� President told me, the big 12 subsidised theatres all offer free companion tickets, as do many more of their members around the UK. But a quick click around random venue websites, for example Hackney Empire, Belgrade Coventry, they both offer a disabled concession and also a free carer ticket for those who need one. The Tron in Glasgow interestingly no longer does concessions, but instead it offers three price options to choose from. No-one ever has to prove eligibility for a concession, and they say a companion ticket is also free. But the Mayflower Theatre in Southampton confirmed to me that they charge half price for their companion ticket, so there a disabled person who needs a companion ends up paying one and a half times as much as a standard ticket.

TOM:

So basically every venue you go to has a different arrangement. At least those are clear, but are other theatres more ambiguous?

CAROLYN:

I would say the answer is yes, because I came across quite a few anomalies on venue websites. Front Row has actually been thanked by some of the venues for pointing them out, and some are still sort of tweaking their messages during the day. When I looked at the Bristol Old Vic website, it only said that free companion tickets were available for people with restricted mobility. So I asked them what about people who are hearing or visually impaired or neurodivergent, and of course the answer came back yes, them too. So since, they鈥檝e updated their website and they鈥檝e made it clear that they are available for all disabled people who need a PA.

When I clicked on 鈥榖ook tickets鈥� at the Mercury in Colchester, the Birmingham Rep, and the Leeds Playhouse, I was taken through to a pricing grid which basically led me to believe that companion tickets were charged for. But let me make it very clear, they鈥檙e not. Those venues have all told me that they work really, really hard to attract disabled audiences, and they all have free access schemes. They encourage people to join them, and then they say because automatically once you鈥檙e a member then the companion ticket pops up, and any other of your access needs. The Mercury has said it has its Access for All scheme, but it also points out that not everyone actually requires the free companion seat. They say barriers to the arts aren鈥檛 always to do with price. And the Birmingham Rep were keen to say that being on their access list means that they can be really sure that you are getting the right seat for you. You might say you need an end of a row seat. You might need to be near the loos. Or you might need to be in the best position to read the subtitle captions, for example.

TOM:

So one message there is to register with the access scheme. But you鈥檙e going to have to do that with every theatre that you want to go to. And proof is going to be an issue for some of those places.

CAROLYN:

That鈥檚 right. And that鈥檚 why people say the card is needed. But proof at the moment is still very controversial. Do you prove? How should you prove? There have been lots of stories of people being asked to prove their disability to the box office staff. Websites are quite often still saying things like 鈥榓re you registered disabled?鈥�, 鈥榓re you on the disabled register?鈥�. I saw a tweet about that this morning. There is no disabled register, but it still pops up on lots of websites.

Many venues I contacted say they take things in good faith. With one quick call, they put you on the access list. Others though warn on their websites they won鈥檛 tolerate abuse of the scheme, so that would suggest there has been some abuse. Then some like the Theatre Royal in Newcastle upon Tyne, they give a list of things they鈥檒l accept as proof, so any of the disability benefits, PIP, DLA, Attendance Allowance, or a Certificate of Vision Impairment, CVI. They also say they want a passport when you apply.

TOM:

Again it鈥檚 that theme that every place you go to has a different system that you have to access.

CAROLYN:

Indeed, yeah.

TOM:

So the access card would help you get through that. That鈥檚 the idea, is it?

CAROLYN:

Well, many people would say so. And the Government actually says in its National Disability Strategy, it was published last autumn, and it said it intended to launch this card in March 2022.

TOM:

We know that didn鈥檛 happen. [Laughs]

CAROLYN:

We鈥檙e five months on. We wondered what had happened to it. I contacted Arts Council England, they鈥檙e leading on this, it鈥檚 going to be delayed for two years. They say, and again I quote, the intention is that a pilot for the access scheme will be up and running by early 2024, ahead of a full launch. Let鈥檚 go back to Andrew Miller, the ex-Disability Champion for Arts and Culture, who pushed the idea of the national arts access card.

ANDREW MILLER:

When this scheme gets rolled out, it will transform the lives of disabled audiences, making the arts and the venue sector far more accessible and radically change the access approach to all the venues who sign up to it.

CAROLYN:

But it鈥檚 massively delayed, isn鈥檛 it. What do you make of that.

ANDREW MILLER:

It鈥檚 taken a long time for this project to happen. I started advocating for it in 2018, I think. Of course there鈥檚 been the pandemic which has also slowed down everything. The initial date that I think was published in the Disability Strategy was actually a mistake at the time, I think they had put down 2022, which was very ambitious and was never going to happen. What matters to me is that this scheme is tested and is working before it鈥檚 offered to the public so it鈥檚 proved that it鈥檚 going to work.

CAROLYN:

But we do already have the Hynt card in Wales, we have the card that鈥檚 called Nimbus or CredAbility, which is accepted by many commercial venues around the country, and we鈥檝e also got a Cinema Exhibitors鈥� card, which works just for cinema. Why can鈥檛 the new arts access card that you talk about just be sort of tagged onto those, if you like?

ANDREW MILLER:

It may well end up involving all of those different systems. I am not part of the process to deliver this scheme, but it could be well be that it builds on what Hynt has established in Wales, what CredAbility have done, and also what the UK cinema card does. But the essential element for me is that the card is made free to disabled users. The Hynt scheme in Wales is free to the user. That for me is a red line, and I think it has to be made available free for audiences.

TOM:

It does sound, Carolyn, as though there鈥檚 a good model in Wales there which perhaps can be expanded upon. We said at the top that there was some good news. I don鈥檛 think it鈥檚 good news that we鈥檙e moving so slowly towards it. But what is the good news?

CAROLYN:

The Holy Grail for many disabled people is being able to book online, so click and pay, job done, just like everyone else. Many venues do allow this to happen already, but of course lots still don鈥檛. We just heard there about the CredAbility card, also known as the Nimbus card, used by companies including Ticketmaster, Merlin which run a lot of theme parks, the O2 Academies, and SSE Arenas. It assesses someone鈥檚 needs so that once they have a card, they don鈥檛 have to go through the same repeat rigmarole at each new place that they go to. Cate Gordon is from Ambassador Theatre Group, ATG, which recognises this CredAbility/Nimbus card at its venues all over the country, and she says from today they鈥檙e rolling out online booking for all disabled customers.

INTERVIEWEE (CATE GORDON):

Up until now we鈥檝e been able to book accessible seats and essential companion tickets online in about half of our UK theatres, and starting this week we鈥檙e enabling that for more. So by the end of September it will be the vast majority of all of our UK venues, so that鈥檚 about 37 in the UK. By registering with Nimbus鈥檚 access card, customers will be able to log on to our website and book your own accessible seats, and also an essential companion ticket if you require one. So you can just log on to our website and book your tickets in the way that you want to, at the time of day that you want to, just in the same way that any non-disabled person could.

TOM:

Cate Gordon from Ambassador Theatre Group there. And thanks for Carolyn Atkinson for that report. There is an irony, isn鈥檛 there, in that the access help isn鈥檛 accessible at the moment.

CAROLYN:

Indeed.

TOM:

It needs to be more so. Thanks for listening to Front Row. I鈥檓 Tom Sutcliffe, and the Producer was Harry Parker. The Studio Manager was Andrew Garratt, and the Production Coordinator, Lizzie Harris. If you don鈥檛 want to miss the podcast ever, you can subscribe to it and then you can listen when you want to and not when we want you to.