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IN TOUCH – European Blind Union on Ukraine, what3words

TX:Ìý 22.03.2022Ìý 2040-2100

PRESENTER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý PETER WHITE

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PRODUCER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý BETH HEMMINGS

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White

Good evening. ÌýTonight, an imaginative initiative which could make life a whole lot easier for some visually impaired people.Ìý How just three random words could help you hit the bull’s eye when you’re trying to find an unfamiliar destination.Ìý

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What3words

What3words.Ìý The Lowry, the Keys, Salford, three slash groups, desks last.

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White

When we said random, we really meant it.Ìý

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But first, a situation which will take more than one thoughtful initiative to put right.Ìý These are just two of the emails we received after last week’s programme on how visually impaired people are coping in Ukraine.

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Emails

I just wanted to thank you for the programme this evening.Ìý It’s just so hard to imagine how people are coping in this situation and it must be so difficult to decide whether to stay or to leave.Ìý I was very impressed with all the people who were interviewed and in all the ways that they are helping.

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I listened with great sympathy and some emotion to your broadcast about the plight of blind and partially sighted people in Ukraine.Ìý I’ve already done my little bit by a donation to the Disaster Relief Fund and several bin liners of bedding, toys and jumpers to one of the local groups who will take them to Poland.Ìý I may seem hard-hearted but it is not the children that I feel most for, they may be upset and frightened but people almost always look after children.Ìý It’s the plight of people like Olga’s blind parents which really distresses me because they’re losing everything familiar, which they have known throughout their lives.Ìý Relocating is so stressful for older visually impaired people like them.Ìý And they are less likely to get the help they need in this terrible calamity.

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White

Those emails from Fiona Gameson and before that Gail Guest.

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Well, one organisation which is trying to pull together the kind of goodwill expressed in those emails by blind people is the European Blind Union, which represents blind and partially sighted people in most European countries.Ìý I’m joined by its director Lars Bosselmann.

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Lars, there’s clearly a great wish being expressed by our listeners who want to know how they can help and I know the EBU is trying to harness and coordinate that spirit.Ìý In what ways are you helping or planning to help?

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Bosselmann

Yeah, indeed.Ìý We see and observe in many countries across Europe the same trend of individuals but also organisations being extremely generous and wanting and wishing to help.Ìý Which is, of course, very positive and we try indeed now to channel that help and to sort of coordinate it, so it goes the right way to the people who are really in need.Ìý And those who are really in need, first of all, of course, those who remain in Ukraine and cannot or don’t want to leave and that’s the most challenging part to get actually support through to them and that’s one we are still also ourselves looking into supporting schools for the blind or welcoming blind and partially sighted, that is not so easy, so that’s the most challenging part currently.Ìý We are focusing, therefore, also, in the current phase more on the bordering countries to Ukraine – Poland mainly but not only of course – to supporting the welcoming of refugees in those neighbouring countries because amongst them there are blind and partially sighted refugees as well who need, of course, everything that all people need – material, administrative support, healthcare in some cases and, importantly, for the kids going back to school in the, let’s say, new country.Ìý

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And there’s a third phase I would like to mention also which is that from their neighbouring countries there is more, let’s say, call to other European countries to also help blind and partially sighted people to go further, so to not stay in Poland or directly neighbouring countries but to go further, that could be the UK, can be Germany, Czech Republic and many others, of course.Ìý And this is also something we, amongst our own members, we are trying to coordinate now, what are the capacities actually of those other countries to welcome blind and partially sighted people once they have been identified amongst the many – many, many – refugees.

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White

On that subject, there’s already been a big response to the suggestion that people should open up their homes in the UK, as in many other countries, is there any suggestion that maybe visually impaired people themselves might particularly be encouraged to offer accommodation, feeling that with their experience of visual impairment they’d be able to offer more appropriately targeted help?

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Bosselmann

I would think, of course, as for all refugees there’s always one connection which I would call a family or friends connection, which actually means, also, that yeah, many refugees they express their desire to go to a certain country because they have there already existing family or relatives living and that, of course, is for blind and partially sighted people.Ìý So, those who have already experience also with welcoming or working with blind and partially sighted people through their ongoing work commitment in organisations or through their own family experience, their lived experience, I think that is particularly useful because they know how to, let’s say, for example, how to guide a blind and partially sighted person, what needs really need to be catered for and all these things are more natural, let’s say, when you have already a little bit of experience.Ìý That is, I think, very, very good.

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White

Of course, no one knows yet how and when this terrible conflict is going to end but whatever happens there’s obviously going to have to be a massive need for reconstruction, getting places like schools and workplaces and indeed general services up and running again.Ìý Can the EBU help with this?

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Bosselmann

Yeah, this is something which we are, as we speak, already looking into very, very concretely.Ìý We get information from within Ukraine that some schools have been hit by bombs and by attacks, so definitely there is infrastructure and services that are hit and damaged.Ìý So, there’s clearly that need for reconstruction, rebuilding, once the war is over.Ìý And so, we will definitely keep, also, a part of the money that is collected now through the crisis time for that rebuilding, reconstruction phase because, of course, we don’t know when it will happen, hopefully very soon, of course.Ìý But that’s something we definitely bear in mind from the beginning now, it’s definitely something we are already having on our minds very much.

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White

And is the EBU itself raising funds?

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Bosselmann

We are.Ìý Amongst our members we are raising funds because we are working with our and through our members in 41 countries, so it’s 41 really across Europe and we are, indeed, launching a call internally to also really get from those various members money that will be channelled through, what we call, a solidarity fund which will then help, as I said, in those different stages but also then already some of that amount will definitely be kept for the needs after the war, when it’s over.

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White

Lars Bosselmann from the European Blind Union, thank you very much.

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Now, is this you?Ìý You’re a confident blind traveller, you’ve just undertaken a complicated journey with your experience and skills using public transport, navigating busy streets, crossing roads using long cane, perhaps guide dog or maybe technology and you get to your destination only to realise you can’t find the front door?Ìý

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You can travel thousands of miles to discover that the last five yards is the hardest part of any journey.Ìý Well now, it seems, there might be a solution especially if you’ve got the right technology.Ìý What3words is a method of pinpointing addresses by using not a complicated sequence of numbers, roads, postcodes, like most addresses but just three randomly generated words.Ìý So, I turned to co-founder and CEO of what3words, Chris Sheldrick.

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Chris, how does it work?

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Sheldrick

We’ve divided the world into three metre squares and there’s a lot of those, of course.Ìý And we’ve named each one with three words from the dictionary.Ìý So, something like – table, chair, spoon – is the name of one of our three metre squares, or – toffee, branch, pyramid – and so on and so on.Ìý And there’s enough combinations of three words that you can do this across the whole world.Ìý And we did it because it was a simpler way than using something like latitude and longitude, which is a huge sequence of numbers, which does cover everywhere but we thought three words was just much simpler for the average person.

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White

But they don’t have to be linked, as you suggest.Ìý I know someone, and I’m not going to give away who it is, whose three words are – clots, frozen, intent – so they’re completely random.Ìý So, if you want to use this system, how do you know what the key three words are to the place you’re going?

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Sheldrick

What you would do is you would launch up the what3words app or you’d go to the what3words website and it’ll give you a map, which looks very familiar but you can click on any grid square, so it’s all kind of gridded up, and if you put your home address in, for example, you can click on your front door or your back door, it’ll just show you the three words.Ìý They’re totally fixed, you can change them and then it’s very simple.Ìý Once you’ve got those three words you can give them to somebody else, they can then navigate to that exact three metre square.

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White

Right, I’ve set out what the problem is for blind and partially sighted people and yet you didn’t actually devise this with us in mind, did you?

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Sheldrick

No, that’s right, I mean it was originally made – I mean, for one, I live in a village in Hertfordshire and our postcode covers a sort of one mile stretch of road and no one ever finds where we live – it’s a farmhouse.Ìý I then spent 10 years running a music business and for musicians I can tell you that every time you have to go to a new event, you’re always loading in the back entrance and the address never points to the right place.Ìý So, we made it for just everyday people who wanted to navigate very precisely.Ìý But we’ve seen a lot of support from blind and partially sighted communities because people want to know where the exact location is and I think it’s fair enough, it’s 2022, we’re still using addresses made 300 years ago.Ìý I think that everybody should be able to find exactly where they’re going to a couple of metres of accuracy.

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White

Yeah, because conferences are the classic example that I find and I also find that sighted people, as you say, can’t find their way into places.Ìý So, you get to a conference and it may be on a university campus, there are about eight front doors and about 11 back doors and sighted people never ask anybody for help.Ìý So, you walk around the building about three times before you can get in.

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Sheldrick

Exactly and what we’ve now seen is that there are a lot of venues, conference venues, event venues, like, for example, the O2 arena, who’ve made a special page for what3words addresses which are now live on the website, so that anybody who needs to get to a particular point on that site can do so.Ìý Another one, just last week, I think, was the Emirate Stadium where Arsenal play.Ìý These phenomenally large sites have now got 3words addresses listed because typing in the address of the Emirate Stadium and then dropping a pin on the centre circle is not much use for anyone, apart from, maybe, the ref.Ìý It’s really good to see that venues are starting to add 3words addresses to sites and acknowledging the fact that there are many, many different entrances and places people need to get to.

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White

And that’s the point, isn’t it, that to be effective you’ve got to have most people using it or really you’d like it to be universal.Ìý I mean how well developed is it?Ìý How many people are actually using this?

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Sheldrick

The system’s really, really well known now across the world and especially in the UK.Ìý I mean we now have 85% of UK emergency services, so across police, fire and ambulance, who will accept a 3words address if given.Ìý And we’re now starting to be built into delivery companies, so for example Hermes and DPD now let you put your 3words address into their app.Ìý All sorts of ways now in that it’s becoming part of every day life, it’s not just a novel idea, it’s something that you can expect.

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White

Any downsides?Ìý I mean how much does it depend on the kind of area it is in or the kind of technology services there are there?

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Sheldrick

So, to use what3words you will need a smartphone or a car or some kind of device.Ìý I mean one really important thing is the system does work offline, so when you go somewhere with no signal on your phone you will still be able to use it, which I know a lot of people depend on.Ìý So, whilst, yes, you do need a smartphone, at least it is immune to going offline or anything like that.Ìý So, we think it’s pretty dependable and something that you should be able to use anywhere.

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White

All over the world?

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Sheldrick

Yes, all over the world, we cover the oceans but with very long words, so you’re more likely to find dodecahedron in the ocean and table in London but it is a global system, we do it in 50 languages too.

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White

Intriguing.Ìý Chris Sheldrick, thanks very much for joining us.

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So, let’s just see if what3words is quite as simple as Chris said.Ìý I’m maybe not the best example because I’ve got a prehistoric phone.Ìý But I’ve asked Beth, my producer, to give me a hand.Ìý Now right by Media City is the Lowry Centre and that’s a classic example of this sort of thing because it’s quite big and there’s a lot in it, including a shopping centre.

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So, shall we just try the 3words, to find out what the Lowry Centre is indicated by?

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What3words

The Lowry, the Keys, Salford, UK.Ìý Three slash groups, desks, last.

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White

Group, death, last – is that right?Ìý Oh, groups, desks, last.

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Okay, so let’s see if it can guide me towards the Lowry.

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Google Maps

Navigate to this address button.Ìý Maps.Ìý Directions to Global [indistinct word] Consultancy UK Ltd., 1 Lowry Place.Ìý The keys button enlist.

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Hemmings

So, what it’s done, Peter, is, it’s giving us three words, which I think is for the Lowry Centre.Ìý So, it gives you the option to share your location into Google maps, which is who is talking to us right now.

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Google Maps

Walk west towards the Keys in horizontal pager.

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White

Well, I normally walk sort of horizontally, I’m just not quite sure which direction is west.Ìý But never mind.Ìý I’ll tell you what I’m going to do, what I normally do, bang this stick and see if I can hear a building.Ìý It would be much easier for me to ask somebody.

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Well, perhaps proof that the app is best used to share your exact location rather than trying to navigate or at least in my case.Ìý And after experiencing Google maps, I think I’ll stick to my prehistoric phone.Ìý

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Well, someone who I think has used this app, I’d imagine more successfully and skilfully than we did, is the RNIB’s senior manager of inclusive design and innovation, Robin Spinks.

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Robin, the RNIB have praised what3words as potentially a great tool for blind people.Ìý I mean what did you think of it and how much is it potential?

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Spinks

Well, we’re super excited about it, Peter, really because navigation and mobility are huge challenges for absolutely anyone with a visual impairment as you know.Ìý And what we’re trying to do, really, is to resolve the mobility challenge in the broadest possible way and we’re not going to do that with one technology, we’re much more likely to do it with a combination of technologies.Ìý So, very much part of the solution rather than something that we’re seeing as a stand alone point to point solution in itself.Ìý

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So, if you imagine being able to use a combination of haptics and sound and perhaps on-screen directions in large print, for example, being able to do that and that being able to take you from one three by three square to another in another city or indeed another country, that’s the really exciting bit for us because practically on a day-to-day basis it’s all about enabling people to get more easily from point A to point B.Ìý And I think the example was given is a really good one – you might be looking for a specific door or entrance, not necessarily the postal address, which might be the thing that you’re given at the outset.

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White

The trouble is, is it only going to be really useful for those with good technology skills?Ìý I mean are there ways this idea could be made useful to many more blind people not just the really skilful ones?

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Spinks

Absolutely, you know we’re seeing, day by day, our technology for life team are working on the ground to get more people skilled up and using a smartphone.Ìý We’ve got a grants programme that’s available to give people grants to help them to purchase technology. ÌýBut you’re quite right, Peter, if you’re not using technology one of the things you could do, if you’ve got a regular meeting point that you know the what3words name of, perhaps you’re meeting a friend who has got a smartphone, you could simply use that to identify where you are or to describe it.Ìý And also, for organisations we’re asking them to think about using the what3words system to describe, for example, where the disabled entrance is or perhaps where the box office is or where the bar is, for example, making sure that we’re properly describing the exact location rather than an approximate one.

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White

We’re used to hearing about things that are going to revolutionise our lives and then quite often we’re disappointed.Ìý Has this really got the potential that you’re talking about?

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Spinks

We believe it has.Ìý When you integrate it with our other solutions you can deliver things that move the dial on mobility and navigation.Ìý We’re seeing a lot of developments in this space from lidar mapping to ultra-wideband, obviously the kind of beacon based and code-based technology that people might have come across.Ìý So, as I mentioned earlier, it’s not one thing as a solution in itself, it’s one thing that is a really useful tool as part of the mobility challenge solution.Ìý This is very real for me; I struggle on a daily basis trying to find places and actually being able to narrow it down with this app has been a really helpful addition to my toolkit.

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White

Robin Spinks, thanks very much indeed and especially for joining us after a long flight back from California.

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Spinks

My pleasure Peter, I’m off for a coffee, thank you.

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White

I think you’ve earnt it.

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You can email In Touch with your views and comments on anything that you’ve heard in the programme – intouch@bbc.co.uk – you can deliver your voice messages on 0161 8361338.Ìý From me, Peter White, producer Beth Hemmings and studio managers Owain Williams and Simon Highfield, goodbye.

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