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IN TOUCH

TX:Ìý 22.02.2022Ìý 2040-2100

PRESENTER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý PETER WHITE

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PRODUCER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý BETH HEMMINGS

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White

Good evening. ÌýOne of the most often quoted statistics on this programme is that just over one in four visually impaired people of working age is actually in a job.Ìý The precision of this figure is sometimes disputed, though it’s still regularly cited by the RNIB, amongst others and what is surely beyond question is that there are many people with much to offer in the workplace who are excluded and living on benefits.

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For the last 30 years or more, technology has been hailed as the long-term solution to this problem.Ìý Such equipment is frequently featured on this programme and only a few months ago, we ran a short item pointing out some of the assistive tech which could help you get into and then perform a range of jobs.Ìý It was intended to be encouraging but for one listener, at least, it only scratched the surface of the topic, it was over-optimistic and, he maintained, that far from technology being a panacea for getting into work, it was now often a stumbling block.

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It's a point which is quite well illustrated by Rhianna Parkinson’s recent experience:

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Parkinson

In 2020 I applied for a job with the police and was accepted in October.Ìý They’d said, you can start as soon as we’ve made the reasonable adjustments.Ìý And then applied for Access to Work, pretty much straightaway, when I got my grant, I was told I could have other technology I needed but it was proving very difficult because I wasn’t invited to any of the meetings about my needs and they started offering me things that were absolutely no use to me.Ìý Eventually, they came out and said – there’s absolutely no way we can make our computer systems compatible with JAWS.Ìý And then I suggested getting a scripting expert in because that’s what Access to Work suggested that I do but the police said – that’s not possible either because letting anyone edit our databases is a security issue.Ìý

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I use computers every day, I don’t really have a problem using technology, it’s just that they couldn’t understand what I needed and how it would work.Ìý And then they, eventually, just said we’re going to withdraw the job offer.

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White

Now Lancashire constabulary said afterwards that it’s committed to fulfilling all its obligation under the Equality Act but, in this case, after detailed exploration it wasn’t possible to make an offer of employment.Ìý I mean what’s your reaction to that?

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Parkinson

On the one level I understand where they were coming from but I think right at the beginning there was quite a high level of ignorance of not even understanding what a screen reader was, despite me sending them all the details and putting them in contact with Access to Work.Ìý But as well as that, if they absolutely knew they couldn’t do it, why keep me waiting a year?Ìý I would have been upset if they’d withdrawn the offer earlier but I could have spent that time applying for more jobs and I could be in work now.

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White

Rhianna Parkinson, who is taking her case to a tribunal in June and we’ll obviously keep an eye on how that goes.

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Our original emailer was Matt Johnson and he felt we should be delving in to the issues that these cases raises and many others.Ìý And that’s just what we’re doing this evening.Ìý Matt Johnson joins us.Ìý You’re a lawyer and you’re making a big claim, that technology is now, often, more of a stumbling block than the liberator that it was claimed to be.Ìý What’s the essence of your argument?

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Johnson

I am a data privacy and IT lawyer.Ìý I work with modern technology and data on a regular basis.Ìý And historically, the computer on your desk was the end point for all of the technologies you use in that you would have all of your programs just installed there and you would be able to use a screen access package that was able to tap into all of those and provide information that you needed to do your job in an accessible way.Ìý My view, however, and it’s compounded by the views of a lot of others in similar positions who I’ve spoken to in the last couple of months, is that since we’re now moving into a cloud-based environment, so meaning you don’t necessarily have all of the programs on your computer, they are on a server somewhere else that you would access, typically, through a web browser.Ìý What that means from an access perspective is that the screen reader can’t tap into the underlying program that’s being used because it’s on a server somewhere else.Ìý All that we have access to is what the browser gives us back and what the browser gives us back is very much controlled very tightly by the manufacturer of those technologies.Ìý What that essentially means is, your screen reader doesn’t have the information it needs to tell you what is on the screen correctly or quickly.Ìý That is one of the effects of that, you simply just don’t have as much information at your fingertips as you did before.Ìý The second effect of that, which is equally important, is that we are entirely dependent on these third-party program designers.Ìý And if they change something overnight, we could walk into a job at 9 o’clock on Monday morning and be entirely unable to use something that worked perfectly at 5 pm on Friday afternoon.Ìý At the end of the day, this affects everyone, simply because technology is used by everyone.

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White

Right, let me bring in Hector Minto, who is the Director of Accessibility Evangelism with Microsoft.Ìý Hector, what do you say to the argument that with the current speed of developments that technology can now be less of an asset and more of a stumbling block to visually impaired workers?

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Minto

So, it’s a super question.Ìý I mean really what you’re talking about is the increased democratisation of who can create technology and that’s the challenge we’re up against.Ìý When you start moving it to concepts like business software and what we would call, in the enterprise world, bis apps, what you’re starting to see there is that more and more people within a workplace being able to create that technology.Ìý So, in years gone by there might have been a technology refresh every few years and a core team responsible for it, what we’re now seeing is that many, many more people, within any kind of business, are able to create in-work technology – a sharepoint, an intranet, a BISApp itself.Ìý And as that happens the lack of awareness, which Matt’s brought up brilliantly, the lack of awareness of how somebody who’s blind uses technology becomes more of a challenge.

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White

So, the more people there are doing it, the more people there are maybe who are doing it without knowing what visually impaired people’s needs are?

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Minto

Absolutely right.Ìý I mean in years up till now, even people who are taught computer science and coding nowadays are still not routinely taught about accessibility. ÌýThe more that we actually turn it to a wider audience of what we would call ‘low code no coders’ so people who don’t necessarily even have coding skills with the ability to now create technology, that’s the mainstream trend, that puts an even greater onus on the business itself to put in build standards around accessibility.

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So, what we’re now doing is we’ve got a call to action to all Microsoft partners around the world to sign up to accessibility.Ìý That hasn’t always been the way.Ìý So, we need greater knowledge and greater awareness around the technology people selling and delivering that technology around the world to do more on accessibility because the problem is proliferating.

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White

Matt, you raised this whole issue, is there anything you’d like to put directly to Hector?

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Johnson

That leads more on to a point regarding the democratisation, if you like, of coding.Ìý I think where we are with that is obviously that third parties and app developers can create, within the Microsoft ecosystem, take, for example, dynamics or some plug ins to Office 365.Ìý So, with that said, how is it that you can have a third-party app developer that creates an app within Microsoft’s ecosystem that is fundamentally inaccessible?Ìý To me that sort of sounds like saying well Microsoft has built a car and if a third-party app developer wants to change the tyres or to add a bigger stereo then some of your demographic can’t use the car anymore.Ìý At the end of the day, it is within Microsoft’s control, you know a company that has had tens of billions in revenue, it is exactly within their control to mandate what their third parties can and can’t do and how those third parties do it.

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White

I must let Hector answer that.

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Minto

We 100% agree with you that we want to get to a point where it’s harder to create inaccessible experiences.Ìý But you are talking about millions of developers out there creating content.Ìý We still live in a world where 90% of the world’s top million home pages are still fundamentally or still have inaccessibility issues.Ìý We’ve got to work harder to educate developers all around the world to deliver content that is accessible.

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Now, one thing we are doing, if it helps, we now share our testing tools for devs and for accessibility completely free of charge.Ìý So, we have accessibility insights, which is our open-source testing software.Ìý Essentially, people are modifying technology on a daily basis, we’ve got to work harder and harder to make sure that people are educated into what it is to be accessible or not.

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White

Right, Kelvin Duncan is an accessibility consultant with Blazie, who’ve been in the business of accessibility for over 30 years.Ìý Kelvin, you advise tech companies, you also advise visually impaired people and you make a distinction between equipment being accessible and being usable.Ìý Explain what you mean by that.

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Duncan

Well, something is technically accessible if the user can understand or perceive it.Ìý So, if you took an example of perhaps some information on a website, it you can retrieve that information and if you could actually have the screen reader read that back to you, then it’s technically accessible.Ìý But if it takes you a very long time to actually retrieve the information in the first place, then it’s not technically usable.

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White

Right and we’re talking here about the number of taps you might have to make to get to something, whereas you should be able to do it in one, you might have to take several, maybe 20?

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Duncan

Yeah, I mean correct.Ìý I mean, for example, if you’re sitting at home doing a Tesco shop, for example, and it takes you a really long time to buy a bunch of bananas, then even though it’s technically accessible, you can do it but if you’re in a workplace environment, maybe working on a 999-emergency call, for example, then you can’t afford to take that length of time, you have to be quicker than or equal to the speed of your colleagues.

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White

I just want to stay with you for a minute Kelvin, to take us a specific example.Ìý A blind person goes for a job that they feel that they have the skills to do, provided the company’s systems allow them to do it – a bit like Rhianna really.Ìý Now you also know that the government’s Access to Work scheme offers you financial help with the training and adaptations that you might need but Kelvin, your concern is, that under current Access to Work eligibility rules you need to have the job before you get the help?

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Duncan

Yes, we have a lot of people coming to us, they’re offered a job and they’re in exactly the same boat as Rhianna, whereby they’re either told by the employer themselves, who quite often are not actually qualified to make that statement, that their systems cannot support something or otherwise they are told by Access to Work that it can’t be done.Ìý I mean in this case we’re talking about somebody who actually had the funding in place, who had done all the legwork, who gave them as much information as possible and still didn’t manage to get that job.Ìý And I argue, had that constabulary come to a company like Blazie and approached somebody with the skill and the knowhow and also, I take on board not being able to look at systems and so on but that’s not true because we look at some of the most secure in the country.

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White

Right, in this case the Department of Work and Pension Rhianna felt had been as helpful as they could be.Ìý We did invite the DWP to put up a minister to join this discussion and we were told there was no one available.Ìý They did draw our attention to adjustment passports that they’re trialling at the moment at three universities, these passports, they say, will provide disabled students – because they’re testing them with students at the moment – with an up-to-date record of the adjustments they’re currently using and any future in-work support needs that they may have.Ìý And they say that will also support potential employers by documenting the in-work support that someone requires.Ìý How much would that answer the point that you’re making?Ìý Matt.

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Johnson

With respect to the Access to Work passports to move between jobs, I think that’s perfectly adequate in certain situations, mainly people that need to bring hardware with them or something very specific like that.Ìý But having recently changed jobs and found a new employer what I can tell you is that whilst my job is entirely the same the systems which underpin it are different.Ìý And so, the idea that you can just bring an accessibility adjustment from one job to another, fundamentally, does not take into account the fact that you may be doing the same job but the systems that allow you to do it are configured in different ways and need to be accessed in different ways.Ìý

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White

So, the question we have is and we’ve had this very well explained by three people but what do we do?Ìý Matt, first of all, you said in your email you don’t think enough is being done to get the right kind of legislative change.Ìý We’ve got an Equality Act, what needs to happen?

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Johnson

The only way forward, which would, at least, begin to level the playing field, is to advocate for an accessibility framework that is legally required.Ìý The only way that we are going to be able to really get the attention of larger companies to take this stuff as seriously as it needs to be taken is for government to step in and essentially legislate for a framework around accessibility.

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White

Okay, this is where I want to bring in the Royal National Institute for Blind People.Ìý Robin Spinks has been listening to this.Ìý First of all, do you agree, Robin, having listened to all that?

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Spinks

I think it’s clear, Peter, that the workplace is becoming a much more connected experience.Ìý Interfaces are changing rapidly, updates are often weekly, that’s a very different world from the one that we inhabited 10 years ago.Ìý So, absolutely.Ìý And we are very keen for blind and partially sighted people to be part of the dialogue all the way along.Ìý So, for example, use the accessibility email address for each of those companies that you’re using products of, tell them when things don’t work, tell us when things don’t work.Ìý We’re constantly working with those big tech companies and with a lot of smaller companies to try and hammer home the message about accessibility but also to make sure that it becomes something that’s a behaviour, it’s not just something that’s done to satisfy a tick box, this is about changing culture and attitude.

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White

Changing culture or changing the law because what Matt is saying is that this stuff needs legislation.Ìý You know you have been lobbying for things like more accessible websites and all that kind of thing but this is more fundamental, isn’t it?

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Spinks

Absolutely, let’s see a legislative framework that actually delivers a more accessible digital environment for everyone.

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White

But is this on your agenda, that’s the question, for legislation, is this something that you’re pushing for?

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Spinks

We would absolutely love to see legislation come about.Ìý In November we launched our visibility better employer standard and that’s really asking employers to shine a light on their own practice and to make a really robust commitment to ensuring that their digital assets and their working environment is accessible to blind and partially sighted people.Ìý

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Johnson

Robin, I’m just sort of hearing the kind of the way that the RNIB seems to be looking at this problem and you talk on the one side about liaising directly with the big companies that create these applications, you talk on the other side about changing the minds of employers around disability, all of those are, of course, laudable things but fundamentally here, why isn’t the RNIB willing to step up and say we want a better legislative framework, we want to help make one?

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Spinks

I think it’s upon all of us to move this forward, to share examples of good and bad practice but also to hold people to account.Ìý If systems are not accessible then frankly, we need to use that as the basis for a complaint and use the legislation that we have but also campaign for stronger legislation to make sure that people are not experiencing barriers in the workplace.Ìý It’s perfectly possible to use technology to overcome them.

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White

Right, we’re going to have to finish in a moment.Ìý I want to quickly go back to Hector Minto of Microsoft.Ìý Would legislation be any help to you or is this really the responsibility of companies like yours to develop the technology further so that it allows for minorities like us?

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Minto

So, currently, we have technical accessibility standards that are demanded globally.Ìý There’s EN301549 is a procurement standard required for all public sector organisations across Europe when they’re purchasing and building technology.Ìý And the number of requests we get for our conformant statements on accessibility is pitifully low.Ìý So, we have so much more work to do than just put the law and the standards in, we’ve got to educate procurement officers, mainstream business application builders.Ìý We, typically, in accessibility space are not having a conversation at the level it needs to be within an organisation and that’s the bit that Microsoft really want to play here.Ìý When we raise these issues with CIOs and talk to them about their disability employee groups and link the two together, we get a much better conversation about what’s required.Ìý Of course, having a legal standing and backdrop to all of that is critically important, I would 100% support that but we’ve also got to make sure that we’re having conversations at the right level within a business to get decisions made and to make progress on this.

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White

Well, now, it’s over to you, the listener.Ìý What have your experiences been and what would you like to see done?Ìý Do tell us.Ìý You can email intouch@bbc.co.uk, leave your voice messages on 0161 8361338.Ìý Meanwhile, my very warm thanks to Hector Minto from Microsoft, Robin Spinks from the RNIB, Kelvin Duncan from Blazie and especially Matt Johnson for raising this whole issue with us.Ìý

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From me, Peter White, producer Beth Hemmings and studio managers Sue Stonestreet and Phil Booth, goodbye.