91Èȱ¬

Downloaded from

Ìý

THE ATTACHED TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT.Ìý BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE 91Èȱ¬ CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY.

Ìý

Ìý

IN TOUCH – Highway Code Changes; Young Animator

TX:Ìý 01.02.2022Ìý 2040-2100

PRESENTER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý PETER WHITE

Ìý

PRODUCER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý BETH HEMMINGS

Ìý

Ìý

Ìý

White

Good evening.Ìý Tonight, the Highway Code changes which it’s feared could confuse rather than clarify.Ìý We’re going to be hearing the visually impaired pedestrians’ point of view.

Ìý

And we’ll also be hearing from the 11-year-old and her mum about the animated films she’s making.

Ìý

Elodie clip

[Lasso, bat, ruler, yellow button, red button] I’m going to go for red. [Selected red.Ìý Voiceover off].Ìý When you’re drawing voiceover won’t tell you what you’re drawing, so I’m just drawing a ball right now, a little red ball.

Ìý

White

And we’ll hear more from Elodie later in the programme.

Ìý

Now at first glance the Highway Code changes, brought in this weekend, sound like pretty good news for visually impaired people.Ìý The code changes seek to make it clearer that when people are crossing or waiting to cross at a junction other traffic should give way.Ìý And if people have started crossing and traffic wants to turn into the road, again the traffic should give way.Ìý So, what’s not to like, indeed what’s new about that?Ìý But the Guide Dogs organisation, while welcoming the intention, are concerned that especially in the early stages of these changes this could be downright dangerous.

Ìý

Well, I’m joined by John Welsman, who’s the lead on canine affairs for Guide Dogs.Ìý So, John, just explain, I mean what is the worry about this?

Ìý

Welsman

Well, I think we’re all aware of the challenges, as visually impaired people, whether we’re guide dog owners or long cane users or whether we’re partially sighted of the numerous ways in which traffic behaves and the unpredictability of it, stacked on top of which you’ve got things like new electric vehicles which are notionally quieter.Ìý You’ve got people indicating when they want you to cross the road by maybe flashing their lights at you, for you and me, Peter, that’s completely useless…

Ìý

White

Not a lot of help.

Ìý

Welsman

... someone partially sighted, they may have a challenge with that as misinterpreting that.Ìý People toot their horns and again what are they telling you, are they telling you it’s safe to cross or are they warning you of danger?Ìý And I think, you know, one of the biggest risks is sometimes even if a car’s stationary what’s going to go round the outside of it, thinking that the person’s just parked up.Ìý So, there are a minutia of challenges which myself and yourself face on a daily basis which make thinking about crossing the road really problematic.Ìý And for us, at Guide Dogs, we provide a lot of training for guide dog owners and for long cane users as to how to negotiate roads and cross them safely.

Ìý

White

But John, why should what they’ve done make things any worse?Ìý I mean the kind of problems you’ve described have always happened day by day, they’re trying to emphasise, aren’t they, that pedestrians should in these situations have a right of way?

Ìý

Welsman

And I think that’s the right thing to do.Ìý You know, in Guide Dogs, we’ve been fighting for a long time to raise the issue that pedestrians should have priority in many situations when crossing roads.Ìý I think the difficulty is it only came in on the 31st January and we know that, from experience, it’s going to take time for it to filter down to drivers, even to be aware that they should give priority to pedestrians.Ìý So, I wouldn’t say that tomorrow or today when I go out and cross the road that I’m confident that even if it was appropriate to do so that it’s safe to do that because I’m not sure the majority of drivers will be tuned in to that or even pay any attention to it.

Ìý

White

So, is your argument really not so much disagreeing with what they’ve done but the fact that there hasn’t been enough consultation or enough warning for drivers to get used to the situation?

Ìý

Welsman

Yes, but I still think, as visually impaired people, we still face that challenge on a day-to-day basis, even if it’s perfect, it’s still a risky job crossing the road, we still need to do what we’re doing, Guide Dogs suggest that on a busy road junction rather than crossing across the junction you indent, you go up the road, so you’ve only got one carriageway to think about at any one time to cross.Ìý Doesn’t mitigate the risk of not hearing a vehicle or one vehicle masking another but it is one way in which we can be safer in thinking about crossing the roads.Ìý We also train our dogs to be wary and aware of traffic and take the appropriate action but dogs are not perfect at this thing and it’s still down to us, as handlers, to take the initiate.Ìý So, if we’re wanting to cross a road and we don’t feel confident it is a case of still waving the driver on and stepping back from the kerb if we feel that actually the driver’s not going to move on and give us a clear steer on the carriageway to make a safe crossing.

Ìý

White

What about from a purely personal point of view, I mean are there particular situations you’ve had that stick in your mind that were dangerous?

Ìý

Welsman

There are loads.Ìý I mean I live in a fairly nice market town in the south of England, where you could argue it’s relatively safe but it’s the decision-making Peter, it’s thinking, all the time, about where to cross the road.Ìý And there’s a major road just some distance from my house and there are several crossing points but all of them have their risks, some of them have their benefits but they all have their risks.Ìý And I think you just have to take each situation; well, I certainly take each situation as I come across it.Ìý And I make mistakes and think oh it’s clear so I can go and the next moment there’s a car bearing down on me that I never even heard or is masked by other traffic.Ìý I just think it’s really difficult, it’s never easy and I’d love to think of a solution that would say categorically whenever I cross a road it’s going to be safe but it’s just one of those things that, you know, I can think of numerous occasions where it’s been a bit dodgy and they’ve been a bit close and maybe I should have been paying more attention or paying more attention to the advice that I’ve been at the time.

Ìý

White

And I must say one of the trickiest situations is when drivers actually have got good intentions and they stop, idle and they’re obviously expecting you to cross but the problem with that is you don’t know what the cars behind are going to do, they’re not necessarily going to be as considerate are they?

Ìý

Welsman

No and a lot of people in my home town are very considerate but they forget that there’s still vehicles coming down the other side of the carriageway paying no attention at all to the fact that I want to cross the road.Ìý So, it is a risky thing and you know I’m not saying it’s easy at all.Ìý And I know sometimes we all get ourselves into situations which we think better of after we’ve done it.Ìý So, if you’ve been taught, which a lot of us are through rehabilitation or through guide dog training, to deal with traffic in certain ways, it’s just a lot safer to do that, it’s never going to mitigate totally the risk but it’s going to be a lot safer.

Ìý

White

I mean the other thing is people will toot their horns, as you said, now the trouble is what does that mean, does it mean go, does it mean stay.Ìý I wonder if there’s any mileage in the idea of actually almost trying to work out a sort of code between motorists and pedestrians, so that we might actually know that one toot means go and two toots mean stop.

Ìý

Welsman

But are they tooting you Peter or tooting somebody else?

Ìý

White

Yeah, therein lies the problem.Ìý So, what exactly is Guide Dogs saying to blind people at this stage, to guide dog members?

Ìý

Welsman

It is saying very much to stick at what you’ve been taught to do, so you know your own local area, you know the environment which you work with your dog or your long cane actually to take the advice that you were given in training and that is to wave the traffic on to step back from the carriageway if the traffic is not moving or seek sighted help to cross the road or to do what you have to do with your dog if you’ve been taught to do specific things.Ìý And, of course, everyone’s an individual, so there’s no blanket coverage that covers every situation and makes it completely safe.Ìý But follow the rules that you’ve been given and you should be as safe as you can be.

Ìý

White

I mean just in consideration at the Department of Transport, the problem surely is that if you’re introducing new ideas, there’s always going to be an initial period of confusion, there’s no alternative to that is there?

Ìý

Welsman

There’s not but I think education and time of transition is going to help a lot of situations and it will be up to us in Guide Dogs, as other countries have done over time, when rules for the road have changed, to review the situation and look at the situation of crossing roads, which is never easy, even with the best intentions and actually decide, maybe a year, two years down the line, is it safer now to give some different direction to visually impaired people we’re training.Ìý But ultimately, Peter, that’s never going to mitigate for road users who still don’t pay attention to the rules because, at the end of the day, it’s got to be policed and it depends who’s around and who can take action to support you if there is an incident.

Ìý

White

John Welsman, thank you very much indeed.Ìý And mind how you go.

Ìý

And we stay on transport because I asked you, last week, for your reactions to the news that the Department for Transport wanted to bin what they characterised as annoying and unnecessary announcements on trains.Ìý And our concern that the baby could get thrown out with the bathwater.Ìý That is certainly what’s concerning Gail Guest.

Ìý

Guest

As a totally blind person I feel it’s very important that the train announcements are kept as they are at present.Ìý I’ve travelled fairly regularly over many years and I cannot think of any announcements I’ve heard that were not important enough to continue to be made.Ìý I really cannot understand why the government are trying to change this when they have much more important things to deal with.Ìý I very much hope that they consult with visually impaired people and other people with disabilities before this decision is made.

Ìý

White

But not all our listeners are opposed to the idea.Ìý Lisa Boucock, for instance.

Ìý

Boucock

I am blind and I regularly commute by train on the Sheffield to Manchester Piccadilly line.Ìý I used to think that my train journey was an opportunity to have some time listening to music or podcasts, however, when these flashy new diesel trains came on the line they came with an enhanced speaker system with extra loud announcements, everything from not forgetting your belongings to endless exhortations to wear a face covering was delivered at ear splitting volume.Ìý The announcements on the old trains, though, which do still run on the line are at a comfortable volume.Ìý The volume on the announcements on the new trains makes it very difficult to hold a conversation, listen to anything meaningful or indeed ask for the help that you need.Ìý One day, out of interest, a friend of mine who has a sound level measuring app on their phone tested one journey and found that the peak level was 84 decibels, which is just below the level at which hearing can become damaged over time, that’s according to the Royal National Institute for the Deaf.Ìý I asked Northern Rail to turn down the volume but apparently this is not possible.Ìý Whilst, of course, some announcements are very helpful to those of us who are blind when we travel on unfamiliar routes, not to mention which side of the train to disembark from, I, for one, would welcome a bit of common sense and maybe a couple of lessons on how to turn down the volume control.Ìý I also, do not need to be reminded to ‘see it, say it, sort it’ several times in half an hour or to be reminded to collect my bag.Ìý As with most things, a bit of moderation would go a long way to help us all travel safely and in comfort.

Ìý

White

Well, keep sending your views on this to us, details of where to at the end of the programme.

Ìý

Now we often talk, on In Touch, about how technology is extending the choices of the things we can tackle.Ìý For instance, perhaps, you’re a lover of cartoons or animated films but have you ever had a go at making one yourself?Ìý Well, it’s never too late or too early, for that matter, as our reporter Fern Lulham found out from 11-year-old Elodie Bateson.

Ìý

Elodie

So, first, you go into the app and you tap the plus button.Ìý [Eraser button]Ìý You can have an eraser.Ìý [Lasso, bat, ruler, yellow button, red button]Ìý I’m going to go for red.Ìý [Selected red]

Ìý

Lulham

I asked Elodie where her journey in bringing images to life began.

Ìý

Elodie

Well, one of my friends told me about this app that she had on her iPad and she said it was really good.Ìý I was very interested in animation, so I downloaded the steam app and I found it wasn’t totally accessible, then I went to another app that was really accessible, so now I’m using that one.

Ìý

Lulham

So, what kind of problems have you come across?

Ìý

Elodie

Some of them are totally inaccessible with voiceover, then there’s others their buttons are read out by voiceover but it won’t tell what the buttons are, it’ll just say button, button, button and then I won’t really know what I’m doing.Ìý I’ve emailed lots of developers but they don’t answer back.

Ìý

Lulham

And Elodie, how did you feel when you finally one that you could use?

Ìý

Elodie

I was like – yes!Ìý

Ìý

Lulham

What made you want to do animation?

Ìý

Elodie

I think I was watching a film, like an animated movie about the ocean and I was like – I’m going to make an animation about that.Ìý We actually did a project with making a [indistinct word] on the iPad at school.

Ìý

Lulham

Does it take a lot of patience and does it take some time if you’re doing a longer one?

Ìý

Elodie

It takes about half an hour and then it takes me up to 10 minutes to make a shorter one.

Ìý

Lulham

And how do you use that technology and how do you make these animations?

Ìý

Elodie

I do it on my iPad and I go on to my animation app and then reactivate frame by frame.Ìý If you want to make a really long one, then it will be a lot of frames, if you’re just making a really short one it’ll take up to about 15 frames.

Ìý

Lulham

Elodie was kind enough to demonstrate to me very slowly what this process is like in practice.

Ìý

Elodie

[Voiceover off]Ìý When you’re drawing voiceover won’t tell you what you’re drawing but whenever you turn it back on, it will just say marker, marker, marker.Ìý And it might recognise what you’ve drawn, so I’m just drawing a ball right now, a little red ball.

Ìý

Lulham

I was also keen to talk to Elodie’s mum, Michelle, to get her perspective on Elodie’s animations.

Ìý

Michelle

I think the first time you did one was just like – oh my goodness, how did you do that?Ìý We were just like you’re so amazing.Ìý I kept saying to you – oh, that’s not accessible, it’s not accessible and do you know what – eventually you got one that worked.Ìý So, it was just your sheer determination.Ìý For us, as parents, it’s made us change the way we think and parent her, to say let’s find a way of doing that.

Ìý

Lulham

How old was Elodie when she first started using tech and what kind of tech was she using?

Ìý

Michelle

We got her an iPad when she was two.Ìý We set that up for you and you used it quite a bit, you would have like tapped and played little games and we got it maybe, at that stage, we hoped that it would stimulate some of her residual vision.Ìý You loved listening to songs and nursery rhymes.Ìý It was sort of a gradual process where we turned on voiceover and I think it’s really important that we get an app that it’s fun, that it works because it can be quite frustrating and sort of puts you off technology if we get things and it’s not really working for you, you can’t really see what’s going on.Ìý And there’s so much technology out there, it’s really overwhelming – are we doing enough, are we doing it at the right time.Ìý Those journeys are really difficult to navigate, there’s no real structure out there to guide or to navigate through all the technology.

Ìý

Lulham

Do you think there’s enough support available for blind children to give them access to tech and teach them how to use it?

Ìý

Michelle

I think there’s a lot of differences geographically, I think it depends maybe on the scale of the statutory services.Ìý Lots of time I think things are picked up by the charitable sector.Ìý The other thing is technology is expensive and then you need ongoing support, education around how to use that and that’s one thing you like to do, we’ve connected with some other blind children in the UK and they send little screenshots how to do things, you’re really helping them with some of their technology.

Ìý

Lulham

So, how important would you say that technology is to blind children like Elodie?

Ìý

Michelle

I think that’s part of Eli’s, I suppose, access to everything, her life, her world, how she lives will be through technology and I think that really needs to start when you begin school or even in pre-school.Ìý I can remember going into one of your first classes and the children were having a technology session, so all the kids had laptops and some Playdoh for you and I said – you can’t do that, you can’t do that.Ìý Just set up the laptop, even turning on my radio, let her understand that and touch the buttons, it makes a sound, maybe you’re not going to get the letters but it’s about play, it’s about navigation, it’s just about having things the same.Ìý Just made me so sad because she was the kid in the class that needed the technology support to access the curriculum and yet she was the one that wasn’t getting it.Ìý That’s really important, that the education system understands that technology is integral and essential to a child’s academic success.

Ìý

Lulham

How does that feel as a mum, Michelle, to watch her using technology to do all of these amazing things that she’s doing?

Ìý

Michelle

I’m just so proud.Ìý She amazes me every day.Ìý And do you know what, she’s so independent and I think when you’re able to do things for yourself and you get the successes it crosses over into other aspects of your life.Ìý There’s a dream now to go to a secondary school and go to university and become a software developer and I suppose this is just the beginning of that.

Ìý

Elodie

Beside the undo and redo buttons there is a plus, you tap that to get another frame. [Plus, add]Ìý I’m just going to draw the ball slightly lower from the previous one.

Ìý

Lulham

Elodie has also expressed an interest in creating her own animated games in the future and she’s very keen for these games to be fully inclusive and accessible to everyone.

Ìý

Elodie

I’ve come across some apps that are just for blind people and I was thinking, what about sighted people too, why can’t they play.Ìý There’s not that many games that work with voiceover and work for sighted people too.Ìý So, I’m just going to make some games that work both ways.

Ìý

Michelle

You already know what [indistinct word] code, so that’s your next big journey now.

Ìý

Elodie

I’ve learned how to code all [indistinct words] but not enough to make a fully functional game.

Ìý

Michelle

I say hard work, trial, error, we get frustrated with each other but we’re going to give it a go.

Ìý

Elodie

Well, I’m drawing the ball going up again.Ìý And there it is done. [Boing, boing, boing]

Ìý

White

Elodie Bateson and her mum, Michelle.Ìý Well do continue to tell us about the stuff you get up to, the more off the wall the better.Ìý You can always email intouch@bbc.co.uk, leave voice mails on 0161 8361338 or go to our website bbc.co.uk/intouch.Ìý From where you can download tonight’s and previous editions of the programme.Ìý

Ìý

From me, Peter White, producer Beth Hemmings and studio managers Owain Williams and Tom Parnell