91热爆

Downloaded from www.bbc.co.uk/radio4

听

THE ATTACHED TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT.听 BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE 91热爆 CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY.

听

听

IN TOUCH 鈥� Uber, Eye Treatment and Lockdown Fitness

听

TX:听 12.05.20听 2040-2100

听

PRESENTER:听 听听听听听听听 PETER WHITE

听

PRODUCER:听 听听听听听听听听听 LOUISE CLARK-ROWBOTHAM

听

听

听

White

Good evening.听 Tonight, when, if ever, can a taxi driver refuse to carry a guide dog?听 We look at the latest attempt to get a court decision in this long-running controversy.听 And in our enquiry into how people are getting emergency eye treatment during the lockdown, we come to Northern Ireland.

听

Clip

Whilst our shutters may be down or opening hours reduced, we are still accessible via telephone or email to provide emergency and essential eyecare.

听

White

A video to reassure eye patients that it鈥檚 almost business as usual.

听

And remember this?

听

Clip

So, left up, right up, left down, right down.听 You will be amazed how hard work that gets to be when you鈥檝e been going on for two minutes.

听

White

Well, now, it鈥檚 your turn to help discover how lockdown is affecting our fitness.

听

But first, despite a handful of successful prosecutions, we鈥檙e still hearing, regularly, from listeners who tell us they鈥檝e had problems when booking taxis, where the driver has refused to take guide dogs.听 Arranged journeys have been cancelled or in some cases, taxis are just driven off as soon as they see that their fare has a guide dog.听

听

Uber is a service that鈥檚 proved very popular with some blind people.听 Afterall, if you鈥檙e comfortable booking online, it鈥檚 easier than trying to flag down a cab on the street when you can鈥檛 see.听 But now, a case is being brought against Uber by a blind user who claims they鈥檙e being discriminatory.

听

Dan Williams told me why he was bringing this case.

听

Williams

I鈥檝e been a guide dog owner now for two years and I鈥檝e had over a hundred refusals with Uber taxi drivers.听 When I book the taxi, I message the driver to say I have a guide dog and then all of a sudden, the driver cancels and that may happen two or three times before I actually get a taxi driver that accepts the job.

听

White

And you say a hundred times!听 I mean how precise have you been about counting these examples?

听

Williams

Yes, so I鈥檝e actually got a record on my phone of the amount of times it鈥檚 been, it鈥檚 probably been about over a hundred times that this has actually happened to me.

听

White

It begs the questions, if you鈥檝e had such problems why have you carried on using them, there are other companies, other taxi firms?

听

Williams

I work all over the UK and so, I know that Uber is all over the UK and it鈥檚 cheap, I don鈥檛 have to use money and so, it just makes my life a lot easier and I don鈥檛 feel like, as a blind person, why should I have to use a different company, the company should be adhering to the Equality Act that鈥檚 there for a reason.

听

White

What impact has this had on you?

听

Williams

It鈥檚 had a severe 鈥� given me a severe mental health impact in that I feel really anxious getting into a taxi.听 I have had other taxi companies do this.听 But it also has made me feel really not so confident to use taxis, it鈥檚 made me really anxious when booking a taxi 鈥� you know, will they or won鈥檛 they take me.听 And I just feel like a second-class citizen, to be honest.听 And I think that we鈥檝e had disability discrimination laws for about 21 years now and I still feel that we鈥檝e still got so 鈥� so much more to do because it shouldn鈥檛 be happening in the 21st century.

听

White

What鈥檚 the most blatant example you鈥檝e had?

听

Williams

So, where a taxi driver 鈥� they鈥檒l turn up, they鈥檒l see me with a dog, they鈥檒l drive off thinking that I can鈥檛 see them at all or they鈥檒l argue with me, telling me that they鈥檙e unable to take the dog because they have an allergy.听 I鈥檝e had loads and loads of different excuses 鈥� they can鈥檛 take the dog because of their religion, they can鈥檛 take the dog because it鈥檚 dirty 鈥� and it makes me feel just horrendous really and I just sometimes feel like I don鈥檛 even want to have a guide dog because the problems that it鈥檚 made me feel.

听

White

Dan Williams.

听

However, the case isn鈥檛 straightforward.听 It鈥檚 complicated by whether or not Uber drivers are employees or self-employed.听 In 2016 a tribunal ruled that Uber drivers are employees.听 But Uber is now set to challenge this at the Supreme Court later this summer.

听

Well handling this case for Dan is Chris Fry, solicitor and senior partner at Fry Law, which specialises in disability related cases.听

听

Chris Fry, because of the upcoming Supreme Court hearing we can鈥檛 make any assumptions yet about Uber鈥檚 position as a company, but to your knowledge, how much are these kinds of cases happening?

听

Fry

Well we hear evidence from people all of the time, especially through social media, that they鈥檙e just being abandoned by Uber, in particular, day in, day out.听 And the difficulty is that most of the time it鈥檚 very difficult to prove it because how do you prove that something didn鈥檛 happen?听 What鈥檚 particularly helpful in Daniel鈥檚 case is that he has the evidence on film and he has other people there to witness it.听 So, we鈥檙e able to do something here that we haven鈥檛 been able to achieve before, which is to hold Uber to account for what we know is happening but which hasn鈥檛 been particularly easy to try and prove.

听

White

What exactly does the law say on this and, after all, there have been successful prosecutions by blind people in cases like this in the past haven鈥檛 there?

听

Fry

There have and there are two ways to go, you can pursue the driver through a prosecution or you can use your rights under the Equality Act.听 And the way that we鈥檝e chosen to go in this case is to use the Equality Act, because we think the problem is better tackled from the top down.听 Just simply washing your hands of drivers saying well it鈥檚 their fault, they鈥檙e independent contractors, they鈥檙e not our responsibility doesn鈥檛 cut it.听 As far as we鈥檙e concerned Uber is a service provider, it has a duty to make reasonable adjustments and specifically not to discriminate against people because they鈥檙e using guide dogs.

听

White

So, what鈥檚 the significance, the specific significance of this case?

听

Fry

Well it鈥檚 most significant to Daniel, in particular, because he uses Uber to live an independent life, it鈥檚 a very convenient and accessible service.听 But of course, the wider significance is that as we鈥檙e all trying to rebuild our lives after Covid, then we鈥檒l be relying upon transport much more heavily.听 It鈥檚 very important that we look at providing a much better, more accessible transport infrastructure, which includes using apps like Uber鈥檚 moving forwards.听 If we鈥檙e successful with this case, then what we鈥檇 expect to see is much better, more reliable taxi service for people with sight loss like Daniel.

听

White

Can this really be resolved before we鈥檝e actually sorted out the issue of whether Uber drivers are employees or self-employed?

听

Fry

Well, we鈥檝e taken the view that it would be far more sensible to wait for the outcome of the Supreme Court case and that that would certainly help us to identify the most effective means of advancing the legal challenge.听 We鈥檙e hopeful that the Supreme Court will confirm the decisions of the two lower courts, that Uber drivers are employees.听 If that鈥檚 the case this claim will proceed full steam on the same basis that it鈥檚 initially been advanced, which is that Uber is responsible as the service provider and is responsible for the acts of its employees who are their agents.听 If the Supreme Court does overturn that 鈥� those earlier decisions and holds that Uber drivers are not employees and are self-employed, then what we can expect of Uber is slightly different and the legal case will be framed slightly differently.听 But we will still be seeking to hold Uber to account in any event.

听

White

Chris Fry, thank you and before that we heard Dan Williams.听

听

Uber told us in a statement: 鈥淚t is totally unacceptable for drivers to refuse to take a guide dog and we investigate every report.听 Licensed private hire drivers must carry service animals in their vehicle.听 We highlight this obligation to all drivers before they start using the Uber app and often send reminders.听 Any driver who鈥檚 found to have refused to take a service animal will permanently lose access to the app.鈥�

听

And you can hear more about this story on tomorrow鈥檚 You and Yours.

听

Now one of the things which very quickly became clear with the outbreak of the Covid-19 pandemic was that many people who needed regularly sight protecting treatment or who developed a sight related emergency, had a dilemma 鈥� did they have to choose between a risk to their vision or a risk to their health?

听

So, to complete our tour of the UK on this, what鈥檚 happening in Northern Ireland?

听

Raymond Curran is Head of Ophthalmic Services for the Health and Social Care Board.听 I asked him what their approach had been.

听

Curran

What I think we鈥檙e doing differently and what we have anyway, is integrated IT platforms which really allow that level of care to be shared and to ensure that the person is seen at the most appropriate place.听 So, we already have e-referral, referral from primary care optometry into secondary care.听 That allows e-triage, so the patient can be triaged in the most appropriate clinic.听 But crucially, Peter, it also gives referral for advice.听 So, a person 鈥� and this is really helping recovery I think as well 鈥� so a patient presents at a primary care optometrist with a problem, this referral is made electronically, it鈥檚 then triaged with a scan, an image, a field plot, whatever, and that allows the secondary care clinician to most appropriately assign to the best clinic and that speeds that process up so that sight loss is minimised.

听

White

In terms that a patient could understand, what would happen from their point of view?

听

Curran

So, if, for example, a patient presented with sudden vision loss, then the primary care optom was maybe suspecting that something might be seen, let鈥檚 say macular condition, then the scan or image can be sent, the clinician in secondary care will then see that remotely and electronically and be able to make a judgement call on whether the patient needs to come up urgently.听 So, the patient, it reduces the anxiety and it means that they know that they鈥檙e in the system.

听

White

So, in a way, what you鈥檝e done there is cut out the GP?

听

Curran

Yeah, the GP has been pivotal, as you know, as gatekeepers to patients鈥� health and social care but they鈥檙e largely out of the pathway for this.

听

White

So, does this mean that patients get answers quicker than they would have done?

听

Curran

Oh, it does, yes.听 It means that they can be either assured there鈥檚 nothing to worry about or assured that referral has been made and it will be expedited if it is a time critical condition.

听

White

Do you think it鈥檚 possible that Covid-19, although there are so many downsides obviously, might possibly have some lessons for the future of eyecare with the kind of examples that you鈥檝e described?

听

Curran

I do, I do, I think the virtual will become a norm, where possible, telephones reviews will become a norm, video consultations, not for everybody, but they may well suit some patients and some deliverers of care.听 And I think our approach to that will teach us how to better manage.听 For instance, we may be separated into maybe hot and cold hospitals 鈥� cold being what we鈥檙e already trialling with elective care centres for cataracts, so these would be high volume centres, removed from that acute setting, so that only people with the most acute, most time critical, eye conditions need to present.听 And also the integrated platform that I鈥檝e described on IT for people who鈥檝e unfortunately suffered sight loss and the certification of visual impairment, that鈥檚 now been digitised as well 鈥� not digital yet, that鈥檚 my holy grail, that鈥檚 our holy grail, but I think we鈥檙e just trying to integrate and join up services.听 And I think Covid, as very unfortunate as it is, is actually pushing forward those strategic directions of travel in any case.

听

White

Raymond Curran, thanks very much.

听

Now many people have been worrying about the unforeseen consequences of lockdown.听 As far as visually impaired people are concerned, for instance, how easy is it going to be to stay fit?听 The reason we drafted in a fitness expert last week.听 Well at Anglia Ruskin University in Cambridge, they want your help to carry out a survey of how people are keeping themselves in trim and what the kind of problems they鈥檙e facing are.听 It鈥檚 being organised online by Dr Dan Gordon, principal lecturer in Exercise Physiology and a former Paralympic cyclist himself.

听

I asked him what exactly it was he wanted to know from people.

听

Gordon

In the broadest sense, we want to understand the difference in day-to-day activities, such as, for example, just going out for a walk or gardening or shopping, which is what I鈥檇 call general physical activity.听 But we also want to understand what is happening in terms of people鈥檚, I suppose, leisure timed activities.听 So, for example, doing sport or going for a swim or being competitive.听 And we want to see what has actually happened as a consequence to the lockdown and importantly, I suppose, if when we compare that to the general population, whether there have been greater constraints placed on those individuals who鈥檝e got a visual impairment.

听

White

Well, that was my next question, I mean everyone is suffering through this, why should it be particularly tougher for visually impaired people?听 What makes you suspect that it is?

听

Gordon

That鈥檚 a great question.听 I think really we have to go back to what we know pre-lockdown and pre-lockdown we understand that when we look at the data 鈥� and I have to say the data in people who鈥檝e got a visual impairment is quite limited 鈥� but we understand that the amount of physical activity done in that population group is actually far less than age matched and gender matched individuals in the general population.听 Add to that the fact that one of the things that comes out from people who are blind and visually impaired is that they have constraints already placed upon them, in terms of accessing services and resources and so on. 听And so the suspicion was that as soon as we go into lockdown and people don鈥檛 have access to all the support networks that would have helped them get to places where they were doing sport or even going out of the house to have a walk because of safety concerns and so on, that really that the amount of physical activity, we鈥檙e pretty sure, but we need to demonstrate this, has gone down quite drastically.

听

White

Now you say you鈥檙e particularly worried about the effects of social distancing on blind and partially sighted people, what sort of thing are you talking about?

听

Gordon

It鈥檚 multiple.听 I mean I think if we look at the broadest context is just on everybody鈥檚 day-to-day health.听 So, the message really has been, certainly up until now, which was about getting one hour of physical activity per day, that is automatically changing people鈥檚 health and what I would call their health dynamics.听 And I think the one thing that really has happened is it鈥檚 taken away access to support networks.听 And my strong suspicion, as we start to come out of the lockdown, is that we鈥檙e going to actually see a lot of issues and I think it鈥檚 going to have quite significant ramifications for us as a population as a whole.

听

White

I mean when you say that, do you think that it鈥檚 going to be more difficult for people who say go out with their friends or also, perhaps, more difficult to get help from strangers who may be fairly nervous of helping?

听

Gordon

I think so, I think it鈥檚 multi-faceted. 听I think 鈥� I think we are now going to be much, much more cautious as a population to a. go out, I think b. to access facilities, and so, this is looking further down the line, but I think we鈥檒l be more cautious to even access facilities and c. I think you鈥檙e absolutely right, I think this idea of asking people, for example, the way to the train station or the way to the coffee shop, because of the notion of having to physically distance, I think that鈥檚 going to become much harder and I think people are also going to find it harder to help people.听 I think we鈥檝e been a society which on the whole have been very good at helping people who are blind and visually impaired and I think there is going to be that sense of cautiousness.

听

White

I don鈥檛 want to be alarmist, but could we even see restrictions on blind people鈥檚 freedoms?听 You know, one hears with trepidation the phrase 鈥� 鈥淚t鈥檚 for your own good鈥�.

听

Gordon

Yes, and I think 鈥� I think this is one of my worries, to a certain degree, is that we haven鈥檛 talked about really blind and visually impaired being an at risk population group but one could argue that they are an at risk population group because a lot of the measures that are being put in place, that are being talked about, are using visual cues.听 So, for example, the changing of the movement patterns around a workplace, they鈥檙e going to be visually orientated, the notion of having Xs marked on the floor in a supermarket, so that you鈥檙e in essence physically distancing from one another.听 And so, there is a potential there where this group start to move into this more at-risk population group, not because there are any underlying health symptoms but purely because of the kind of spatial situations that are going to be associated with it.

听

White

Dr Dan Gordon, thanks very much indeed.

听

And the easiest way, at the moment, to find that questionnaire is to go to the website of British Blind Sport or if you want more help filling it in, without going online, you can email clare.strongman@anglia.ac.uk.听

听

And we鈥檇 be very interested in your views about this wider implication of social distancing for visually impaired people.听 Do you have worries about our future freedom?听 We鈥檙e planning to talk to visually impaired people in other parts of the world, some ahead of us, some behind us, you can email us intouch@bbc.co.uk and you can go to our website bbc.co.uk/intouch from where you can also download tonight鈥檚 and previous editions of the programme.

听

From me, Peter White, and this week鈥檚 producer Louise Clark-Rowbotham, goodbye.