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IN TOUCH 鈥� A blind Shakespearean debut

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TX:听 09.07.2019听 2040-2100

PRESENTER:听 听听听听听听听听 LEE KUMUTAT

PRODUCER:听 听听听听听听听听听听 EMMA TRACEY

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Kumutat

Welcome to the programme.听 鈥淟ove looks not with the eyes but with the mind and therefore is winged Cupid painted blind.鈥澨� So says Helena in Shakespeare鈥檚 Midsummer Night鈥檚 Dream.听 Blind actor Karina Jones isn鈥檛 playing Helena but does have a role in the Royal Shakespeare Company鈥檚 current production of Measure for Measure.听 And if you鈥檙e wracking your brains to remember who the blind character is in that play, you haven鈥檛 forgotten them for this production one of them has been given a cane.听 We鈥檒l talk to Karina and find out who a bit later on.

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But before that, Helena鈥檚 words could be applied to a story we covered on last week鈥檚 In Touch.听 Ashley Cox contacted eight different counsellors in his search for help with depression.听 Each time he mentioned his blindness he was told they didn鈥檛 feel comfortable taking him on as a client or weren鈥檛 sure they鈥檇 be able to help him, despite some of them claiming on their online profiles they were trained to counsel disabled people.听 The ninth counsellor agreed to work with him.

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Cox

You start wondering if it鈥檚 you or if you鈥檝e 鈥� somehow you鈥檝e said something or done something.听 For me, as a disabled person, I鈥檝e kind of developed quite a thick skin, so I tend to just laugh things off and I don鈥檛 know, I try not to think about it really, it鈥檚 a sad reality, I suppose.

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Kumutat

Before looking for counselling himself, Ashley had gone to his GP for help and was given a brochure for Action for Blind People, now absorbed into the RNIB.听 We asked them what emotional support they can provide and they told us:

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RNIB statement

RNIB provides practical and emotional support through its sight loss advice service, over the phone, face-to-face at many hospital eye clinics or through online information.听 Our sight loss advisors and eye clinic liaison officers receive specialist training on living with sight loss and many have personal experience of sight loss themselves.听 We are proud to have developed specialist training sessions for counselling professionals based on years of experience from our sight loss counselling team and current academic research to equip them to work with people with sight loss.

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They also say they will have trained in excess of 70 counsellors by the end of this year.

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William Philips is one of the many moved to write to us on hearing Ashley鈥檚 story.听 He鈥檚 visually impaired himself and director of Think CBT.听 CBT, cognitive behavioural therapy, is an evidence-based therapy which aims to help people to recognise negative thoughts and how to deal with them.

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What sort of mental health problems do you see visually impaired people dealing with on a regular basis, is there a thread that runs through them?

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Philips

First of all, loss.听 So, probably the most common issue that I would work with are people who鈥檝e experienced sight loss either through an accident, through a deterioration of an existing condition or through some other form of illness.听 And in those circumstances the emphasis tends to be around trauma but also issues related to the physiological effects of trauma, so, high levels of physical hyperarousal, so people feeling very anxious in their body and depressed mood.听 The other areas that we work with can include, I guess, problems with self-esteem or low self-value, where people tend to compare themselves as a visually impaired person, maybe, with their sighted counterparts at work or maybe with their partner, if their partner can see, negatively comparing what they can or can鈥檛 do, their own perceptions about themselves with other people.听 And then just coping, I think it鈥檚 true to say that if you can鈥檛 see, just getting around, working, performing daily tasks have additional challenges and that in itself can impose additional stress but can also lead to other conditions 鈥� interesting 鈥� like social anxiety, so a tendency to be anxious in an unfamiliar environment or when dealing with other people.

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Kumutat

What advice would you give somebody who was thinking of trying to find the right kind of therapy for them?听 And that is not giving us a plug for CBT William, that is actually saying what should that process be and what should it look like.

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Philips

The headlines are pretty clear.听 If you have a visual impairment, you鈥檙e up to three times more likely to be experiencing a problem with anxiety or depressed mood.听 You are astonishingly twice as likely to experience problems with self-harming or even suicide.听 And co-morbidity, which is a clinical term that really means experiencing more than one problem at the same time, such as anxiety and depressed mood is much higher if you have a visual impairment.听 So, I think as a potential patient or as a client, it鈥檚 about approaching your GP or your clinician and asking them to refer you to somebody that has experience of working with visual impairment.听 If you find that you鈥檙e working with somebody that doesn鈥檛 have experience of visual impairment then I think the next step is to take responsibility yourself and to ask them to engage in supervision or to obtain support, so that the process can be more accessible.

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Kumutat

One of the things that I find, as a blind person, and I鈥檓 assuming you do, making assumptions here William, is that when you go into a new situation like that, whether it be a new therapy situation or even with a new GP, you find that you have to educate them about your disability, do you think we should be able to expect not to have to do that when we look into pursuing therapy for ourselves?

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Philips

I鈥檓 not sure that I鈥檝e come across that personally and certainly the people that I鈥檝e worked with, with a visual impairment, haven鈥檛 experienced the need for special education for the referring GP or the clinician.听 I think what has happened is there鈥檚 been a tendency to assume that because it鈥檚 because sight loss or because it鈥檚 about coping with may be a pre-existing sight loss problem, that the solution is about counselling, that there鈥檚 a sort of tea and sympathy kind of idea around 鈥� well if you鈥檙e coping with this, you need somebody to talk to.听 I think鈥�

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Kumutat

But surely there is a space for that, surely there is鈥�

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Philips

I think that鈥檚 right.

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Kumutat

鈥�a point at which talking things out and even verbalising them to some degree can help, I mean isn鈥檛 that proven?

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Philips

I think that鈥檚 absolutely right and I鈥檓 certainly not indicating that counselling is unhelpful.听 I think what we鈥檙e talking about is equality of access.听 So, if you鈥檙e a visually impaired person you should have the same access based upon the same starting point as a normally sighted person and if that means CBT is going to be helpful for you, let鈥檚 say, with a problem with PTSD or a problem with social anxiety, then pursuing that is appropriate.听 That isn鈥檛 to say that talking to somebody or reflecting on loss or normalising your experience just by sharing with another human being isn鈥檛 also incredibly value.

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Kumutat

I wonder whether there is the risk of if somebody who鈥檚 visually impaired meets a therapist for the first time, and the therapist is kind of looking at that person and thinking 鈥� well of course you鈥檙e going to heightened anxious, of course you鈥檙e going to feel that you鈥檙e not coping very well, you鈥檝e got a visual impairment.听 Whereas there might be a disconnect between that and what the people who 鈥� the person who is blind is feeling and that actually they don鈥檛 feel that their visual impairment is having the impact on their mental health and it鈥檚 clearly down to something else.听 Could that be a tension that鈥檚 difficult for people to traverse?

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Philips

You think about the process that we go through therapeutically it all starts with an initial meeting and during that first appointment you would expect a thorough and full assessment of the presenting problems.听 So, my advice to visually impaired people seeking therapeutic support is to hold off and meet with the therapist, go through the assessment process, be really clear with the person that you鈥檙e working with about the issues that you specifically want to address, suspend any judgements or biases until the assessment process is complete and if you鈥檙e working with a good therapist, in that first appointment, you鈥檒l identify a problem list quite objectively and you鈥檒l also identify some specific goals for therapy to work on.

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Kumutat

And I guess that would also be the same advice that you would give to a counsellor 鈥� suspend any biases or prejudice is they were looking to deal with a visually impaired person?

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Philips

Well I think that鈥檚 right, Lee.听 I would hope that anybody who works professionally within the counselling, psychology or psychotherapeutic environment is not only trained and practised to focus on problem solving, on listening, on insight, on support rather than judgement but that they鈥檇 also be working to their own ethical standards, which would mean that we would 鈥� we wouldn鈥檛 be in that first session making assumptions based upon anything other than what the individual is presenting with.

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Kumutat

My thanks to William Philips.

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And here鈥檚 just a small selection of your thoughts.听 Andrew Walker, a recently retired counsellor, emailed to say:

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Walker (read)

I was appalled at the way in which this young man was treated.听 There鈥檚 no justification for refusing therapy to someone on the basis of blindness.听 As far as I鈥檓 concerned, and believe that the professional bodies would agree, it would be the duty of a counsellor who did not feel able to offer their services to a client to find someone who would be prepared to undertake the work.听 Unfortunately, people in psychological distress are least able to challenge therapists about their conduct.

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Kumutat

Dian Wilmington-Foley is a psychotherapist with a visual impairment, also retired, and she has a suggestion:

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Wilmington-Foley (read)

There are a great many therapists out there and not all of them are ignorant with regard to sight loss or other disability.听 It may be beneficial to all parties if a list of therapists who are confident enough to deal with sight loss and visual impairment was compiled and retained in each geographical area.

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Kumutat

Well you鈥檒l be pleased to know Dian the RNIB is looking to post a list of counsellors trained in visual impairment on their website.

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Jonathan Fisher, however, feels that coping with depression is largely down to a person鈥檚 own resources.

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Fisher (read)

Any slight or massive bouts of depression I鈥檝e had were resolved entirely by my own inner mental resources.听 I can admire Ashley for his resilience and persistence, we visually impaired people need it.听 The telephone support line from RNIB is inadequately resourced and I feel little better than a tea and sympathy service.

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Kumutat

And thank you to all who emailed intouch@bbc.co.uk or phoned to leave us a message on 0161 8361338.

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Now eyes and blindness are used by Shakespeare as metaphors for wilful ignorance or unwillingness to recognise truths.听 Most tellingly in King Lear and most violently too with Gloucester having his eyes rather unceremoniously removed.听 But artistic director of the Royal Shakespeare Company, Gregory Doran, didn鈥檛 have any of those motives in mind when he cast Karina Jones in this season鈥檚 plays Measure for Measure and As You Like It.

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Here he is talking about what he wants to achieve.

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Doran

Hamlet says that the purpose of playing, the point of theatre if you like, is to hold a mirror up to nature.听 If you鈥檙e a young kid, black kid in Tottenham or an Asian kid in Coventry say, and you don鈥檛 see your face reflected in that mirror, you don鈥檛 see yourself up there on those stages or on those screens, then why should you engage in that cultural offer.听 So, we wanted to make a particular effort to just check ourselves, in terms of our casting processes, to see whether we were reaching all the communities that are out there and reflecting those communities.

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Kumutat

Gregory Doran there.

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So, his idea is to reflect society in its diversity on the stage.听 One of the ways he鈥檚 tried to do this is to add visual impairment to Sister Francisca, a mother superior figure in Measure for Measure.听 Well Karina Jones, I鈥檓 aware you鈥檙e speaking to me from the Royal Shakespeare Company now, probably surrounded by its people but how well do you think it鈥檚 worked?

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Jones

I think that it鈥檚 working very well and in a way why wouldn鈥檛 it?听 It鈥檚 something that the disability community of actors have been banging on about for years that yeah, we can play anything, it doesn鈥檛 specify that any character in Shakespeare is sighted, so why can鈥檛 anyone play any character.听 I鈥檓 doing two plays, I鈥檓 doing As You Like It and I鈥檓 doing Measure for Measure and the lighting is something which makes a difference to me personally when I鈥檓 acting.听 And As You Like It is a very light play and Measure for Measure is a very dark play, literally, and the lighting is very dark and there鈥檚 lots of mirrors around.听 And I have some vision around the edges.听 So, that鈥檚 proved a bit more challenging for me but it鈥檚 nothing that we haven鈥檛 worked out and found ways of changing and making work really easily.

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Kumutat

So, how obvious will it be to the audience that you鈥檙e visually impaired?

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Jones

When I鈥檓 playing the nun in Measure for Measure the costume department and the design department had a look, if a nun was visually impaired in the time when the play was set, which is in Vienna 1910, something like that, what would be used.听 And so, I鈥檝e got kind of 鈥� it鈥檚 a long cane, it鈥檚 like a stick, like a brown coloured wicker stick, I have that and I鈥檓 kind of assisted on by Isabella, who plays a novice nun.

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Kumutat

So, it is fairly obvious that you鈥檙e visually impaired and how did you feel about that adaptation to the character for you?

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Jones

A visually impaired woman in those times would have been very vulnerable and may be that would be a place that she鈥檇 go to 鈥� a convent.听

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Kumutat

You鈥檙e playing Sister Francisca, who is a sort of mother superior type character, we鈥檝e got a clip of her, i.e. you, speaking to Isabella.

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Clip 鈥� Measure for Measure

Ho-o, peace be in this place.

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Who鈥檚 that which calls.

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It鈥檚 a man鈥檚 voice.听 Gentle Isabella, turn you the key and know his business of him.听 You may, I may not, you are yet unsworn.听 When you have vowed, you must not speak with men but in the presence of the prioress, then if you speak you must not show your face or if you show your face you must not speak.

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When was the first time you saw someone like you on stage?

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Jones

I never have.听 I鈥檝e seen times, since I鈥檝e been on stage, where there鈥檚 been a visually impaired woman on stage, very rarely, not at all often enough but I never saw a reflection of myself on stage ever, no.听 I think in a film, I saw the film that I absolutely fell in love with, was Marilyn Monroe 鈥� How to marry a millionaire.听 Her character didn鈥檛 wear her glasses, so she couldn鈥檛 see anything and she鈥檇 follow the wrong man, she鈥檇 have to put her nose right up to the number of the door to see what number it was.听 And that was the only person that I saw being anywhere near like me on screen growing up.

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Kumutat

And did you relate to that at all?

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Jones

Absolutely, yeah, yeah.

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Kumutat

So, masking your visual impairment and being 鈥� and having that displayed on stage.

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Jones

Yeah, yeah, totally because I wanted to be an actor but I didn鈥檛 see anyone like me being an actor, so I thought well, I鈥檓 just going to have to be like everybody else.听 And it鈥檚 only recently that I suppose I can get employment being myself.听 And I think it鈥檚 sad that I didn鈥檛 have anyone growing up who I could look up to, but I think it鈥檚 really brilliant that now visually impaired young people are going to have role models who are doing things on the stage and on the telly.

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Kumutat

Are there any visible adjustments in place for you in order for you to be able to do this work?

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Jones

Yeah, I have a support worker with me and the support worker will have my script, so if I don鈥檛 know my lines yet, I鈥檒l have the lines fed to me, so she鈥檒l speak the lines and then I鈥檒l repeat them.听 And when I鈥檓 working if the director gives me a note, the support worker will write the note down for me and then type them all up and then I鈥檒l get them as a document later on that day.听 Going off stage, at the RSC, is quite daunting because it鈥檚 a really, really big stage.听 So, to make sure I鈥檓 off at the right place they wave a torch to the side of the stage, so I fix on the torch and then I can get off into the wings safely.听 So, there鈥檚 lots of little things that we鈥檝e been working to find a way through.

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Kumutat

My thanks to Karina Jones.

Details of Karina鈥檚 performances can be found on the In Touch website.听 And before I go just a quick word about the blindness concession for the TV licence.

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Margot James, Minister for Culture, Media and Sport, has confirmed that the government has no intention to change the blind, severely sight impaired, licence fee concession, regardless of the age of the recipient.听

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And you can find more information about that on the TV licensing website 鈥� tvlicensing.co.uk.

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That phone number to leave us a message at In Touch is 0161 8361338.听 And the email address again is: intouch@bbc.co.uk.

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The producer today is Emma Tracey.听 My thanks to the team.听 Have a lovely evening.