91Èȱ¬

THE ATTACHED TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT.Ìý BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE 91Èȱ¬ CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY.

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IN TOUCH – Useless subtitles and BSO Resound

TX:Ìý 10.07.2018Ìý 2040-2100

PRESENTER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý PETER WHITE

PRODUCER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý KEVIN CORE

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White

Good evening.Ìý And time for the news but it’s not always in English – we’ll be putting your questions about this to the 91Èȱ¬â€™s Head of Current Affairs.Ìý And a debut performance at the Proms, which start this week.Ìý How does a blind instrumentalist learn a complex arrangement using braille music?

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Clip – music

The answer is anyway I can.Ìý So, my first port of call is to read the score and again and again and again.Ìý And it’s a long process of reading before I ever pick up an instrument.

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White

More from Kate Risdon later in the programme.

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But first, the complexities of EU negotiations, the politics and science of nerve gas and a daring rescue in the caves of Thailand.Ìý Following international news stories is complicated enough as it is but it’s impossible if whole sections of TV news reports are in a foreign language.Ìý We’ve been contacted by blind people who are interested in foreign affairs but find that news programmes regularly put translations on screen as subtitles but often no spoken English translations, which means we can’t follow the story.

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In Touch listening, Don Heffernan [phon.], told us about his efforts to keep up to date with the Salisbury poisoning case.

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Heffernan

I was recently listening to a Newsnight report.Ìý Somebody who’s a reporter for the 91Èȱ¬, who speaks Russian, and he had that day spoken to this young lady in Russia and the conversation went on for about 15 minutes and that was totally and utterly subtitled.Ìý So, I might as well not have even started to listen to that programme.

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White

That was Don Heffernan.Ìý Another listener, Martin Barber, is a bit admirer of the work of the 91Èȱ¬â€™s Chief International Correspondent Lyce Ducet and he was looking forward to her two-part programme Syria: The World’s War.

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Barber

Almost as soon as the programme started it became clear that it was going to use a lot of archive footage with Arabic speakers and that the Arabic would be translated into subtitles which I obviously can’t read being blind.Ìý There was nothing to enable me to find out what the Arabic speakers were actually saying.

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White

Well we have someone who is responsible for current affairs programmes to answer some of those questions.Ìý Jo Carr is the 91Èȱ¬â€™s Head of Current Affairs.Ìý Jo, first of all, 91Èȱ¬ [speaking Russian].

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Carr

How dare you – I’ve got no idea what you’re saying to me Peter.

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White

I didn’t think you would.Ìý To be honest I have no idea what I’m saying myself, except that this is in Russian and that’s exactly the kind of experience that Don and Martin are talking about. The question was – doesn’t the 91Èȱ¬ want all people to enjoy its current affairs programmes?

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Carr

Yes, I absolutely do want as many people as possible to enjoy our current affairs content and I’m grateful to your audience for actually being part of that group of people.Ìý In the case of Newnight and the interview with Victoria Skripal, the cousin of Yulia Skripal, this was a very late breaking interview, the reporter, Gabriel Gatehouse, conducted the interview in Russian himself.Ìý So, from our point of view that was a very urgent situation, the imperative was to get that interview to air – I think Gabriel was the only journalist who managed to speak to Victoria Skripal.Ìý And there the imperative was just to get it out as quickly as possible.

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White

Presumably the imperative is also all the things the 91Èȱ¬ normally has to check – that people aren’t libelling people, that they’re accurate – those are all things that matter just as much in as far getting it to all your audiences as well aren’t they?

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Carr

That’s right.Ìý I suppose the point here though is that dubbing is a slightly time-consuming process and in that kind of time window in terms of actually just being able to cut the interview and get it to air as quickly as possible I just don’t think it was logistically possible to dub in that particular situation.Ìý

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White

Wouldn’t the translation exist though – somebody could just nip into a studio and read couldn’t they?

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Carr

Sure, though you’ve then got to factor in the fact you’ve got to put that translation on to the edit and you’ve also got to factor in the fact that presumably the Russian speaker in that situation was Gabriel who was also then thinking about his live commentary and about which sections of the interview would be cut and how it would be edited.

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White

So, that would be true of that case but it wouldn’t, surely, be true of a two-part very carefully crafted programme like the one that Lyse Ducet did?

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Carr

Yes, I agree with that and I’d like to apologise to Martin Barber because I think that is something that we should have thought about far more carefully.Ìý Obviously, there is a balance to be struck sometimes between hearing the emotion in speakers’ voices and hearing their authentic but I do accept that when we have programmes which are a long time in the making we’ve really got to think more carefully about these questions of accessibility.

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White

Because I’ve often heard that argument – the argument about authenticity.Ìý But of course, there is no authenticity at all for a blind listener who can’t understand what is being said.

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Carr

Yes, well I think these things are a balance but I do think in this case that we didn’t get that balance quite right because it is important that our content is accessible.Ìý But as I say I think on this occasion we really could have done a bit better.

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White

Well we can talk to Gareth Ford Williams, who’s the Head of 91Èȱ¬â€™s Accessibility for Design.Ìý Is it enough for departments to say it’s too hard or as Jo just said there wasn’t time?

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Williams

I think you know – I mean the 91Èȱ¬ often – I mean the DG talks about the 91Èȱ¬ being for everybody and it’s something that we have – I mean previous DGs have always talked about and that universality is something that’s very, very important.

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White

Oh, come on though, do you have to do it or not?

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Williams

I think where it is possible it should be done.Ìý I mean this is one of those things where, as Jo’s already said, that more could have been done.Ìý We may be missing things like specific guidelines, we need to have a look into this or a guide on best practice of how to approach this.Ìý And I think this is an opportunity – and this is always why I always encourage people to contact the 91Èȱ¬ with any issues that they ever had because it’s the best way for us to know whether we’re doing the right thing or not.Ìý Now I think this is going to…

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White

But I know that the 91Èȱ¬ have been contacted about this many, many times by blind people and so have we on In Touch and what we would say is – it still happens.

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Williams

Yeah and I think it’s – and I’m sure Jo will agree – now is a really good time to have a good conversation about actually why is this not happening.

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White

I mean subtitling for people with hearing loss, for example, is pretty much taken for granted now on most programmes.Ìý We know the automated subtitling can make mistakes but it’s accepted it’s a duty to provide it wherever possible and it is possible isn’t it?

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Williams

Well it is possible and this is – I think where things are possible they should – they should be done.Ìý But as Jo’s pointed out already, in one case there was a possibility there and on the other one there was less possibility and therefore it didn’t happen.Ìý And there’s always going to be a little bit of grey area.Ìý But I think you’re right, at the end of the day, more can be done, more should be done, we need to work out why it’s not being done.

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White

Can I just press you on whether it’s a grey area that everybody who possibly can should have full access to all the 91Èȱ¬â€™s output and that therefore saying that blind people every now and again just have to accept that they won’t be able to isn’t good enough?

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Williams

There’s a lovely word ‘equivalence’ with a ce at the end, I think everyone should have an equivalent experience at the 91Èȱ¬, you should be able to access the same information, there may be slightly different paths to it.Ìý Giving people options and giving people opportunities to get to the content I think is really important, you’re right.

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White

Jo Carr, do you think it’s enough just to talk about it or do we actually need firm guidelines, almost 91Èȱ¬ regulations that say you have to do it?

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Carr

I think you have to have the conversation first because obviously we have to get to the root of what’s going on here before we can work out how to effectively address it.

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White

Haven’t we had the conversation?

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Carr

Well, certainly in current affairs what I’m going to do as a result of this is I’ve invited Gareth and a colleague to come and speak to the senior leaders in the current affairs department and that I think will feed into the thinking that Gareth is doing around is there a best practice guide that we need to circulate, do we need to raise the profile of this issue among our producers.

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White

And do you think maybe we need to change the culture in news to some extent to make them realise being first isn’t always ideal if it’s not inclusive?

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Carr

I think these things are always a balance and Peter I wouldn’t really be telling you the truth if I said that you can usefully say to journalists don’t be first, that is part of the DNA of news.Ìý Having said, as you say, it is a balance with accessibility and I think the only sensible way to approach that is on a case by case basis.

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White

But you can reassure Don and Martin and all the people who’ve complained about this that there will be very serious consideration given to it after this broadcast?

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Carr

Absolutely and I’m grateful for them to drawing it to my attention.

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White

That was 91Èȱ¬ Head of Current Affairs Joanna Carr and before that Gareth Ford Williams of Accessibility and Design.Ìý Do keep your examples of this coming, we want to keep an eye on this story.

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And several of you got in contact about our recent visit to Microsoft’s HQ in Reading where we tried out some of the latest assistive technology aimed at us.Ìý Brian Gaff runs a talking newspaper and he emailed us to say:

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Gaff [read]

I don’t have a smartphone and am a little worried about the group of people who are not comfortable with these new devices who increasingly seem to be ignored.Ìý With everything being online and nobody giving telephone support anymore it’s becoming increasingly difficult to carry on if you are blind but can’t use modern tech.

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White

And from the other end of the technological spectrum Mark emailed about the section of our visit to Microsoft when Lucy Edwards tried out the navigation app Soundscape.

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Mark [read]

During the item you raised concerns about the loss of perception caused by having to use headphones.Ìý I’ve been impressed by bone conducting headphones, these work by sitting on the bone in front of your ear and transmitting the sounds through vibration.Ìý They’re a way to get lots of audio information in real time from mobile technology while keeping the ability to hear the sounds of what is physically around you.

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White

Do keep those reactions coming.Ìý Now so many blind people have made highly successful careers from music that some people seem to think it goes with the territory – if you’re blind you must be musical.Ìý Not so of course, you still need enormous talent and application to rise to the top.Ìý But there is something new about the way blind flautist Kate Risdon is making her name.Ìý Kate is one of the six disabled members of BSO Resound – Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra’s new ensemble, making the BSO the first symphony orchestra in the world to have a professional disabled led ensemble as a part of its makeup.Ìý A highlight will be a performance at this year’s Proms which start on Friday.

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Our reporter, Tom Walker, has been to the Spire Methodist Church in Poole, Dorset, where BSO Resound were having their final dress rehearsal for a performance.

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Actuality – BSO Resound dress rehearsal

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Walker

One thing that occurs to me Kate, when I was watching you, is there’s obviously a visual relationship between most of the ensemble and the conductor but obviously in your case that isn’t happening.

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Risdon

No, it’s a totally different relationship.Ìý The conductor’s role is also partly of course to get out of the ensemble what he wants during rehearsal time.Ìý And so, obviously, that is done sometimes through speech and describing what they want.Ìý So, for me, the conductor’s gestures are largely, I suppose, received through the medium of sound.Ìý Sometimes because I can hear the conductor breathe or move and other times because the response of the ensemble means that I know what is being gestured by the conductor.Ìý And that’s the same for this ensemble as it is for choral concerts that I’ve done in the past as well and all kinds of concerts to sense what’s going on and react to it immediately.

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Actuality – BSO Resound rehearsal

We now come to Bach’s orchestral suites and the second suite in B Minor.Ìý Bach was amongst the first composers to use the flute as the instrument that we recognise today in the modern orchestra.

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Music – rehearsal

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Walker

Thinking about accessing the music I notice that the other five members of the ensemble had the print copy of the music in front of them, you of course had the braille but weren’t able to use it.Ìý That must be an extraordinary feat of memory.

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Risdon

That’s absolutely standard.Ìý Musicians tend not to memorise because there’s no need, they’re phenomenally trained sight-readers and there’s no need for them to memorise every single score.Ìý And the fact is that if you’re a professional orchestral musician so much music passes under your fingers that there simply wouldn’t be the chance or time to memorise all of it.Ìý So, as well as being phenomenal instrumentalists musicians are, professionally at least, in classical music awesome sight-readers.Ìý So, yes I have braille scores and as we said those are for the purpose of committing the music to memory and reference in rehearsal.

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Walker

How do you go about committing the music to memory?

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Risdon

Lots of other people do it, I mean opera singers do it and dancers do it and actors remember their script.Ìý So, I’m not alone.Ìý The answer is any way I can.Ìý So, my first port of call is to read the score and again and again and again.Ìý And it’s a long process of reading before I ever pick up an instrument.

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Walker

Have you ever had an occasion when you’ve been performing when you’ve just simply had that kind of brain fade and forgotten the score?

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Risdon

We don’t talk about those.Ìý It’s bad karma.Ìý I have three more concerts to do this week.

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Walker

We don’t want to think about the occasions.

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Risdon

We don’t think – I haven’t.Ìý Mostly the memory’s returned at the very last moment.Ìý I have dreams about that kind of thing.Ìý It’s not funny.

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Music – rehearsal

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Applause

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Walker

The BSO Resound Ensemble comprises six exclusively disabled people, do you feel, in some ways, that that’s quite segregationist – would you prefer to be in a mainstream orchestra?

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Risdon

No, no, no let’s not even go there.Ìý As far as I’m concerned once you get in the rehearsal room and you’re playing music there are – we don’t talk about disability, we don’t think about it, we’re so busy doing music.Ìý And the standard is not compromised and the point of it is that actually there really isn’t any difference at that point.Ìý How we get here, how we deal with access issues, how we deal with memorisation issues, how we deal with all the rest of that is simply stuff that each of us deals with to get here.Ìý So, I don’t particularly feel the time in a segregated ensemble, I actually feel, for the first time ever, that I have been included by a mainstream orchestra on an equal basis to all their other musicians and I have to say that is absolutely life changing.Ìý We have to be respectful and accommodating of one another’s requirements in order to enable the ensemble to function.Ìý But on a musical and artistic basis I don’t even think about it.

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Walker

Do you think, though, it might be symptomatic of the industry that BSO has had to think about doing this?

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Risdon

No, I think it’s actually – well if it is I think BSO is absolutely trail blazing.Ìý It wasn’t me that has pushed for this, it was the orchestra who put out a call.Ìý I went for audition, so it’s not like oh we want some disabled musicians and we’re prepared to accept a slightly lower standard.Ìý No they weren’t, they auditioned and they’ve got people here who are at professional level, disability or no disability.

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Music – rehearsal

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Walker

What are your ambitions in the medium and long term?

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Risdon

I would really like to think that the Resound Ensemble will continue and I’m hopeful that it will but as a freelancing musician I think must of us are wary of medium and long-term goals.

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Walker

Looking at the more immediate term, you’ve got a number of concerts coming up in schools and then in August you’re playing at the Royal Albert Hall, how are you feeling about those commitments right now?

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Risdon

That’s something I can’t quite put into words.Ìý Who knew I would be asked to do that?Ìý It’s amazing.Ìý It’s like going – I suppose it’s the musical equivalent of the Paralympics that if your preparation is good hopefully everything will come right on the day.

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Music – rehearsal

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[Applause]

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White

Kate Risdon, ending her chat with Tom Walker on a harmonious note.Ìý And there’ll be many more of those from BSO Resound when they play at the Royal Albert Hall as part of the Proms on Monday 27th August.

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That’s it for today.Ìý You can call our actionline for 24 hours after tonight’s programme on 0800 044 044.Ìý You can email intouch@bbc.co.uk or you can click on contact us on our website from where you can also download tonight’s and other editions of the programme.Ìý That’s it from me, Peter White, producer Kevin Core and the team, goodbye.