91Èȱ¬

IN TOUCH – Tech Advancements for 91Èȱ¬ and Away

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TX:Ìý 25.07.2017Ìý 2040-2100

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PRESENTER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý PETER WHITE

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PRODUCER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý LEE KUMUTAT

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White

Good evening.Ìý Like it or not the so-called digital revolution is here to stay.Ìý There’s now technology around which can offer blind and partially-sighted people alternative ways of doing many of the things which have traditionally caused us a good deal of grief and tonight we’re going to feature some of the latest developments in helping us get around, for example, find what we’re looking for or use the equipment that we already have more easily.Ìý And it’s very down to earth stuff some of this, if you want to avoid, for example, dousing your spaghetti Bolognese in beetroot rather than tomatoes until recently you didn’t have many options – you could arrange your tins with extreme care, you could find a way of labelling or you could locate someone who could see.Ìý But suddenly there are many other ways which don’t involve Braille skills, the memory of an elephant or having a constant stream of sighted friends tramping through your kitchen.

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The aim is to give you an overview of what’s now possible, whether you use it or not is down to you and your circumstances.Ìý To help us two experts who definitely come into the category of enthusiasts.Ìý We know some of you are exasperated.Ìý Our experts are Jackie Brown, lives in Northern Ireland, she is the incoming chair of the BCAB – the British Computer Association of the Blind.Ìý Dave Williams is with me in the studio, he’s a freelance trainer on technology and he’d describe himself as a digital adopter.

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Let’s start with just getting around.Ìý Everyone knows about dogs and white canes and how they help us navigate in terms of avoiding obstacles.Ìý More recently though we began to see the development of equipment which you could carry with you, similar to the now familiar Sat Nav.Ìý Jackie, just explain the methods blind people are increasingly using to navigate.

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Brown

Well Peter the iPhone and Android devices are the most popular means now that a lot of blind people are using to get around from A to B.

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White

And they’re using speech to do the kind of things that sighted people are tending to do all the time now?

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Brown

Yeah that’s right.Ìý Coming over here in the car I had my iPhone running maps and I put the full address of the 91Èȱ¬ studios in and I was able to listen to the instructions as I was going along.

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White

And that was so that you could keep control of the situation in a way, it was like looking out of the window in a way?

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Brown

Yeah kind of, I turned voice-over off because the maps app is self-voicing, so it was giving me all the directions. And I was asking my driver as well and he was saying yes, this is correct, that’s right, that’s right.

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White

And voice-over that’s the screen reader that actually reads to you and says what you hear?

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Brown

Yes, yes.

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White

And how much do you use it?

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Brown

If I’m going to go around on a bus somewhere or I’m going to go in a car then it’s really useful because I just like to know roughly where I am and you get an expected time of arrival as well.

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White

Dave Williams, I think you use it a lot more don’t you?

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Williams

Absolutely yes.Ìý So I use a range of apps on my phone.Ìý So similar kind of idea, rather than using a dedicated device I’ve downloaded software to my phone and I quite like some of the specialist apps that have been written particularly for blind and partially-sighted people.Ìý So they would include things like Blind Square, which gives you information about your surroundings, so it’s kind of like looking around as you’re moving along – you find out what’s in your immediate vicinity.Ìý Then another app I use quite regularly is the RNIB Navigator and that’s a subscription based one.Ìý But what I find is that actually no one app really does it all.Ìý So sometimes it works to have two apps running at the same time.Ìý So you’ll hear – I went out at the weekend with my family, when we were taking a trip into town, we were going out to do a bit shopping and I was on the bus and we wanted to know when we were getting to our bus stop and what I found was that the one app you’ll hear – the male voice – is the RNIB Navigator, that’s telling me what side of the road each of the junctions is on, the side roads as we’re passing them, it’ll tell me on the left, on the right but it was actually Blind Square that gave me the name of the street that I wanted first.Ìý So often these apps are giving you slightly different sets of information and sometimes you need to use them in combination.

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White

Can we hear a bit of that?

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Talking apps

Ransom Avenue right.Ìý Bath Road and [indistinct word] Way.Ìý Stanley Street left.Ìý A38 one o’clock and City Walled Road seven o’clock.Ìý Silver Street Car Park 85 feet behind.Ìý St Nicholas Street and Trinity Street.

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Williams

So yeah St Nicholas Street – this is the one.Ìý Alright then thank you driver.Ìý Thank you.

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White

Right so that’s a lot to concentrate on, isn’t it, if you’re using two apps at once?

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Williams

Oh definitely, you don’t start with that, you probably start with one app and you do need to give it a bit of time and attention and perhaps practise somewhere that you already know to get a feel for the kinds of information it’ll give you.

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White

Jackie, I mean you are not necessarily that keen on using a phone when you’re navigating are you?

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Brown

If you’ve got a dog or a cane or you’re carrying something it can be really clumsy and you need an earpiece or bone conduction headphones on so that you can hear because particularly in a busy area where there’s lots of traffic going on and stuff you really need to be able to hear what your phone’s saying.Ìý And I think for some people they might find that very disorientating to have the information going on in your ears and then you’re listening to your whereabouts.Ìý I really use my spatial awareness a lot and I would find that a bit off putting and have done and I just find it a lot easier to just use my cane or the dog and just walk and not worry about the GPS.Ìý But I do appreciate that for some people it is really important and it does give you independence.

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Williams

Definitely make sure that you’ve got a battery pack and the right kind of headphones.Ìý The other problem we had at the weekend when I was out with my wife, Emma, who’s also blind, it started to rain and that made using the touchscreen really difficult.

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Brown

It is, that’s the problem that I think for some people – certainly for myself – if you’re on the move and you’re trying to swipe or place your finger over the touchscreen it can be really quite difficult and you can get little keyboards, tiny little credit sized keyboards, that have some kind of tactile feedback.Ìý But it is a bit hit and miss sometimes when you’re walking around, so there are lots of pitfalls to think about as well.

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Williams

Jackie made a really good point there about when you’re trying to flick around on a touchscreen and not everybody’s comfortable with touchscreens.Ìý And one of the things that the stand alone devices do is to give you buttons, which of course many people still want.Ìý Some of these devices are about the size of a phone again, so you’re carrying another device around with you with another battery obviously which you need to charge but there is that benefit, that it’s designed specifically for a blind person and it will have buttons that will in some cases have tactile markings on them as well.

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White

And let me just ask you both this very quickly.Ìý Aren’t there lots of times when it’s just quicker to ask someone – how do I get somewhere?

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Williams

Well that assumes…

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Brown

If you can find somebody.

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Williams

… that there’s somebody – yeah well exactly, that assumes that there is somebody available, there isn’t always and understanding the limitations is very important.Ìý These things are tools, you know, and you’ve got to have the right tool for the job, you’ve got to understand how it works, how to use it and where its limitations are.Ìý It won’t tell you, for example, if a restaurant is above a shop.

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White

Right up until now we’ve been talking about big navigation, the outside world, but of course there are often times in your own home, for instance, when you just need help identifying something, you know those tins I was on about for example – what’s in them?Ìý Dave Williams, what’s the range of methods for doing that?

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Williams

We have apps like Be My Eyes that establish a video link with a sighted helper, so this is something that you can download to your phone and then the sighted person on the other end they can see from your camera what you can see and then you have a real time conversation with that person.Ìý And there was a lot of talk about that app a year or two ago.Ìý We’ve also got BeSpecular, which has a kind of a sort of a mixed approach.Ìý So you take a photograph, just one photograph, and then you ask a question.

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White

Well I actually tried these out just a few minutes before we started to record the programme and this is what happened.

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What I want to know is what colour is this sweater.

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Williams

Okay well we’ll try that, so we need to take a picture, so I’m just going to point my camera of my phone at you.Ìý Okay?Ìý So it’s uploaded the picture, so now I need to ask a question.

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White

Right, what colour is this sweater?

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Phone app

Make a new request.Ìý Waiting for replies.Ìý One person replied.Ìý View reply.Ìý Replies.Ìý Play reply.

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Williams

Play reply.Ìý So we’re going to hear somebody’s voice now.

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Voice

In the photograph it does look a medium pale blue but it could be grey but I think by the look of the shirt I’d say it’s blue.

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Williams

Okay so the lady who told us that said it was a medium pale blue or a grey – is that what you thought?

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White

I think she’s right because I thought it was pale blue, I’d hoped it was pale blue and I think it goes with this shirt, which is what she seems to imply.

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Dave, was that fairly typical, is that the sort of thing people use it for?

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Williams

I guess so, yeah, and at least you’re getting a human being telling you what’s going on.Ìý So you can be reasonably confident but then there may be some security issues that you might need to consider – safeguarding issues of course if you’re working with children.Ìý The other type of app that we use for recognition is something like AI Polyvision, which was on this programme previously and that attempts to use software to work out what is in the field of view of the camera.Ìý So a lot of the social networking sites now, like Facebook and Twitter, they’re starting to use this and your phone, as well, will tell you – person sitting at desk wearing glasses – or something like that.Ìý But you have to use your own judgement about whether or not you can trust it.Ìý So I would say that the human ones, where you actually have another person, tend to be a little bit more reliable but maybe the ones that use an algorithm, where it doesn’t send an image away to somebody else, are perhaps a little bit more private.

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White

Jackie, what’s your take on these?

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Brown

I’ve tried them and I like them. ÌýI actually use a couple of the ones where you just take a picture and the phone uses its judgement really what it sees.Ìý And so I’ve tried Tap Tap See.Ìý I think my favourite one is Cam Find.Ìý They’re free apps and I’ve had a lot of success with things like colours, if I want to know the colour of a garment.Ìý The other thing I find is really useful is if I want to identify – if you buy several birthday cards or Christmas cards for somebody, different people, and you actually want to identify whose is whose.Ìý It actually tells you and it describes the picture as well – I’ve had a lot of success with these.

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White

Are these available on Android as well?

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Brown

Yes they are.

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Williams

And what’s happening now with these apps is that the methods that they’re using to give you information tend to be sort of converging.Ìý So we recently heard about a new app in the States called the Seeing AI app and hopefully will be available in the UK soon.Ìý And this uses a range of methods to try and acquire information for you.

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White

Jackie, Dave mentioned the privacy issue is that – as a woman is that something that bothers you?

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Brown

Well I don’t have great concerns about it because I think you’ve got to use your common sense.Ìý I mean if you’re going to walk around with basically very little or nothing on I think you’re asking for trouble but I think if you’re sensible and you don’t ask about sensitive information like credit cards and things like that that are very personal then I think it’s – I mean let’s face it big brother’s watching you really out there all the time now with this stuff.

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Williams

But then conversely you might want some personal information that actually you don’t feel comfortable asking somebody you know, so that’s where an app can really save the day.

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White

Now of course often what you actually need is just an assistant, not a live one that you have to humour and pay and be nice to but one which will just offer you help when you need it.Ìý And one of the things that people still love to show off are those – are the assistants which respond to voice commands, you know the kind of thing where they ask whoever it happens to be.Ìý Well now they too are becoming more sophisticated and once they’re set up you don’t need any skills to operate them and also these are not designed specifically with blind people in mind, they just happen naturally to work for us.Ìý Jackie explain about them because I think you have two of these don’t you?

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Brown

I do yeah, I have one of each, I have – I bought the Amazon Echo first and then I bought the Google 91Èȱ¬.Ìý And they are slightly different in what they tell you, different things, I’ve recorded a couple of bits and pieces to let you hear an example of.

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White

But I mean – and we’ll hear that in a minute – but just give us an idea of the kind of things that you would use that for.Ìý I should say one of – the Amazon one we did feature on the programme last year but remind people what they do as a genre.

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Brown

Well they are devices that connect to the internet, so they technically don’t have any memory in them themselves.Ìý So everything they get is from an internet connection, so you have to have a Wi-Fi connection to be able to use them.Ìý And they are basically a digital assistance that you speak to and there is a wake word that you say when you want to ask the assistant something and then hopefully you’ll get the answer to what you’re looking for.Ìý So in the case of Google 91Èȱ¬ you’ll say:

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Demonstration

Okay Google.Ìý Tell me flights between Belfast and Manchester from 24th to 26th November.

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Round trip flights from Belfast to Manchester leaving November 24th and coming back November 26th start at £80.Ìý Would you like me to track prices for the cheapest flight on these dates?Ìý You’ll receive emails with updates.

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No.

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No problem.

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Brown

I find them very friendly women.

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White

And it’s not just about asking question is it, they will do things for you.

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Brown

Yes they will indeed, they can access your calendar, if you’ve set it up, so that you have a busy life, busy household, and they will do lots of different things for you – you can add to the shopping list, you can get them to play music, you can get them to stream radio stations, podcasts – so there’s a whole raft of things that they do.

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Williams

And the great thing of course from a blind person’s perspective is that you can be doing something else with your hands, so you might be cooking or you might be washing up or reading something in Braille or whatever it is, you haven’t got to go and find it and touch it and interact with it, you can just call out to it and they work across the room.Ìý Also in my house we love it because as I mentioned earlier my wife and I we’re both blind but my eight-year-old son he’s fully sighted and we find that it works just as well for him as it does for us.

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Demonstration

I’ll say Alexa what’s up.Ìý

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Hello.Ìý Here’s what’s up on your calendar.Ìý There is Master Builder’s Holiday Club 2017 tomorrow morning at 10.00 a.m.

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[Name] what sort of things do you normally ask?

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Tell me facts about brown bears.

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The brown bear is one of the two largest terrestrial carnivores alive today.Ìý Rivalled only by its close cousin the polar bear.

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I didn’t know that it was a close cousin of the polar bear either.

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Oh well there you are.Ìý Right, go on mum.

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How many grams in four ounces?

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Four ounces is 113.4 grams.

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White

So really I mean this is where I suppose the tie up with equipment that can be both popular with sighted people and blind people – this is a relatively new development isn’t it really.

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Williams

I think the idea of you releasing a device that doesn’t have a screen on it, that’s its primary interface is voice, is interesting for blind people because suddenly you don’t have to go and switch on some accessibility thing or know about screen readers or anything like that, it just works.Ìý And yes there is some set up involved, you do have to get it connected to your network at home and that might need the help of a friend or family member or somebody like that, but once it’s up and running you can just talk to it.

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White

Now I made it clear that you two are both enthusiasts, I mean you wouldn’t be experts if you weren’t enthusiasts.Ìý Jackie, do you have sympathy for people who just are finding this really overpowering in a way?

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Brown

Yes it is.Ìý If you’re not into technology and you’re thinking well where do I start, what’s the best thing to buy or – you know there is such a lot out there and if you’re standing on the edge and you’re thinking I don’t know where to start with this, I’d love to be able to do such and such but I just don’t know where to start.

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Williams

It is really important to say that there is help available, not least of which from the British Computer Association of the Blind, you’ve also got your local blind society, admittedly some of those are more teched up than others.Ìý And then just ask around – friends and family – chances are they’re already using some of this stuff.

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White

That’s it for today’s programme.Ìý I told you that we couldn’t cover everything.Ìý But we want to hear from you too.Ìý Are you using this kind of equipment?Ìý What do you do with it?Ìý And if you don’t what’s putting you off?Ìý We’d also like to find out what your non-tech solutions are for sorting your socks and not ruining your spaghetti Bolognese.Ìý You can call our action line on 0800 044 044 for 24 hours after the programme.Ìý Email intouch@bbc.co.uk.Ìý Dave Williams, Jackie Brown – thank you both very much indeed.Ìý And from me, Peter White, producer, Lee Kumutat and the team, goodbye.