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How do you grade murder?

The Director of Public prosecutions wants a distinction between first-degree and second-degree murder in England and Wales. Keir Starmer thinks people should get an automatic life sentence for first degree murder. But he also wants a second degree charge - where the sentence would be up to the judge. His predecessor, Sir Ken MacDonald, says it would be particularly helpful in cases involving what is known as joint enterprise, often used to deal with gang-related murder.

Nicky Campbell's guests include Julian Weinberg, a criminal defence lawyer, and Janet Cunliffe. Janet's son Jordan was the youngest of the trio found guilty of the murder of Gary Newlove outside his home in Cheshire in 2007. He was convicted under the law of joint enterprise, which enables entire groups of people to be convicted of murder despite the different roles they may have played in the killing.