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As theological debates go, it’s the showstopper, the big one, the crowd pleaser. An evangelical Christian sits down with a card carrying Satanist. In this case, Pastor Mark Mullins of the Strangers Rest Evangelical Church and Gavin Baddeley, an ordained reverend in the Church of Satan. Gavin and Mark joined Nicky Campbell in the studio to thrash out their beliefs - and challenge their counterparts - for Nicky’s new 91热爆 5 Live podcast Different.

So first, what are their beliefs? Mark’s doctrine may seem the most familiar at a glance, but his strain of Christianity is perhaps more fiery than Gavin’s satanism.

Mark believes the bible is the literal word of God, without error and entirely factual. He believes that humanity has been on this planet for 6,000 years and that all people who have not been born again are, as the Strangers Rest website says “under the just condemnation of God and needs to be born again, forgiven and reconciled to God in order to know and please him.”

You might expect that for Mark, coming face to face with Gavin, would be akin to reaching the final level of a computer game and facing your arch nemesis.

But Mark was actually reassured that at least Gavin knew he was going to face eternal damnation, saying ” The truth is we, before we become Christians, the Bible teaches that we're all children of the devil.“

However, in spite of Gavin’s reassuring candour about his sin levels, Mark was unsettled by Gavin, “I don’t want to trivialise how serious it is…to claim to be a follower of the devil.”

So what does Gavin believe? Well, very little as it turns out. Gavin says he does not believe in the devil, just that the concept of the devil signifies all the stuff religion eschews, and Satanism embraces. The Church of Satan exists as a kind of anti-religion, purposefully making a mockery of religious traditions and rituals.

The Church of Satan was founded in San Francisco in 1966 by Anton LaVey - a man Gavin has met and interviewed. Anton was an author, musician and face of Satanism, even serving as a technical advisor in sufficiently mephistophelian films like The Devil’s Rain. Dubbed the Black Pope by the media, LeVey held Satanic weddings, christenings (including that of his own daughter, Zeena) and funerals.

Satanism is fairly simple, believe nothing, question everything. It’s founded on a lack of surety, leaning into doubt. As LaVey himself once said “Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence” something Gavin echoes: “ One of the reasons we are here is pleasure. We shouldn’t feel guilty, within the parameters that your pleasure is not imposing on the rights of others. Christianity, like most of the Abrahimic religions, has used this form of abstinence, this denial as a form of control.”

Gavin crossed paths with LaVey in the 90s when researching a book on modern Satanist culture, and secured a rare interview with LaVey after he had largely retreated from the public eye. Gavin describes him as impressive and Anton asked Gavin if he wanted to join the church, offering him an honorary priesthood.

Now based in North Yorkshire, Gavin says he hasn’t taken part in a Church of Satan ceremony for some time, but described one such service: “A black mass is relevant to people struggling to remove the vestiges of Christian indoctrination, it’s a parody essentially”. However his description of some of the practices, namely the altar being formed of a naked woman, caused a raised eyebrow from Pastor Mullins: “It’s dark, and it’s immoral and it’s wrong. It’s the epitome of what Satan represents.”

To hear Nicky Campbell and the full conversation between him, Pastor Mark Mullins and Reverend Gavin Baddeley just search 'Different with Nicky Campbell' on 91热爆 Sounds.