91Èȱ¬

Dropping Gower was not very bright !!!

The best player of leg spin we had and also a LHB !!!

"So called fab - four" ?

Oliver Brett does not have a clue..... It's all very well suggesting that the 'fab four' Indian batsman should be dropped as youngsters aren't getting a chance but he has neglected to mention that there are no real promising young world class batsman in India at the moment. Certainly none that can expect to walk into the team at the expense of the old guard. Ponting hasn't been setting the world alight lately.... should he be dropped too?
Tendulkar,Dravid,Laxman and Ganguly are not the players they were.... but at home and playing the best team in the world i would have them in for one last crack.

I think it's going to be a good one. I've been dizzy with excitment for weeks and can't wait for 5am Thursday.

Personally I would have liked to see a couple more 'youngsters' in the squad, Yuvraj Singh and Sreesanth are particular favourites of mine. But there's time for changes as the series goes on and I'm expecting great things from both sides.

I think it's a bit daft to say 'there are no real promising world class batsmen in India at the moment'. Did you not follow the President's XI practise match Carcharias? Centuries from Kohli, R. Sharma, Yuvraj and 50s from Pathan, Jaffer and Parthiv Patel (in case you missed it). I've nothing against 'the fab four' but there are definitely younger players snapping at their heels, which is great fro India - I think their future's looking good right now.

David Gower "almost as elegant a batsman as Mark Waugh"?????!!!!! Did you ever actually see Gower bat, Oliver Brett? Huge fan of Waugh, and you could make a good argument that he was the more effective batsman, but stylish though he was, he came nowhere near Gower's effortless grace. No one has, in my memory, except maybe Graham Pollock.

He's hardly a good example of dropping a player when they're past their best, either. When he was dropped, he still looked England's best batsman, had just performed well against Pakistan, and people such as a clearly past-it Mike Gatting were picked ahead of him. He was also, as someone has pointed out, a good player of leg-spin and a leftie. His dropping had more to do with Gooch's determination to finish his test career ahead of him on aggregate runs, etc.

Equally brainless comments about India. I look forward to them making you eat your words.

Sorry Oliver but very inept use of Gower as an example. The only reason for his axing was that Goochie was in charge and 1) Couldn't stand Gower as a cricketer (talent over application) and 2) wanted the highest run scoring record for himself. Brought a sad end to the career of England's one true great of recent times before KP. Especially as Gower was still the best player even at the time of being dropped.

Oliver,
I'd like to support your assertation of Mark Waugh being more stylish than Gower - he is one of my favourite all-time players!

Unfortunately due to my circumstances, I've never seen any of them bat live, only on the TV. It's also unfair because Gower was a bit before my time, but there you go...

The only players I've been as excited about watching as M.Waugh are: Tendulkar, Laxman, and my personal favourite, MJ Vaughan!

Good luck India - would be great to see the old-timers get it together for one last famous series victory!!

It was even suggested in one of Ian Botham's books he thought Gooch's treatment of Gower was disgraceful just after he was forced to pick him for the home series against Pakistan in 1992 due to public pressure and ended up beating Boycott's Test Career Run record.

It had more to do with the fact that Gooch under his captaincy operated the team like a regime and demanded everyone put maximum effort into preparation for a match esp fitness.

He could not take Gower's carefree and relaxed approach and sought to make an example of him

Gower was dropped even though he still had a few good years left in test cricket

Gower took it like a man and did not make a big thing out of it

A better example to use maybe Robin Smith
a brilliant batsman against fast bowling especially everything the West Indies threw at him ... until Australia came up with a plan to tie him down with spin and that sapped his confidence


He would regain it with some heroics against South Africa on tour and the Windies in 1994 but then Ray illingworth decided he was too old and ended his test career at only 32 !!

Fiona and Oliver,

I accept that some of the youngsters played well in the Presidents XI practice match but that's exactly what it says on the tin..... it was a 'Practice Match'. How many times have we seen Yuvraj fail especially in Tests?
I think he is a wonderful batsman when on song but this hasn't been the case since his amazing exploits at the twenty20 world cup.
The reality is that if there was real quality waiting in the wings the Tendulkar,Dravid, Ganguly and Laxman would have been replaced a while ago as their form in recent years has been relatively poor.
Those that have come in on the odd occasion have not only been poor but never really looked like they belong at the highest level.
Don't get me wrong i am an Indian and would love to see India thump the world's number one side..... and being at home and given Australia's lack of spin options i think this may well happen. The frustration i feel stems from the fact that the BCCI are the richest cricket board in the world with the power(rightly or wrongly) to influence the ICC yet havn't managed to produce a new superstar with either the bat and the ball for a number of years now. That's the reality of the situation and that's why the old guard is still a mainstay of the test side.

yeah we know - but debating the style of gower vs waugh and/or whether gower was dropped too soon is a lot more interesting then debating the merits of some young Indian unknowns!

Why so much love for Aakash Chopra? He's not going to seperate Gambhir and Sehwag at the top of the order and he can hardly be called a young choice, given that he's approaching 32.

There have been plenty of chances for younger players outside of the Dravid-Tendulkar-Ganguly-Laxman quartet. Tendulkar missed a lot of international cricket with his elbow injury. Sehwag had a spell out. ganguly was dropped. laxman hasn't been an ever-present over his Test career. You look at the players who have been tried: Dinesh Kartik, Yuvraj Singh, Kaif, Gambhir (back again), Wasim Jaffer... nobody took their chance to cement their place. The pace reserves have improved immensely due to some good coaching work, not least by the MRF school, but the batting has declined. There are a lot of Indian batsmen who have awesome first-class averages but who failed dismally at test level. Vikram Rathour comes immediately to mind.

So Chopra might feel unluckly to not be in the squad but he's hardly a shoe-in. Someone like Rohit Sharma has a fine average but the mental application might not be there. Cricinfo had a superb article on this:



With the like of Suresh Raina, Sharma and now Kohli all are a long way from the finished article. I don't think they're ready yet for Test cricket.

Carcharias:

Did you see the reaction by the Indian population when Ganguly was dropped? Effigies burned, threats made against those responsible, riots taking place.

Is it any wonder why the Indian selectors are loathe to drop the "fab four" when incidents like these occur when they try to inject some fresh blood into the team?

Additionally, as has been pointed out, what incentive is there for the young players to establish themselves when they know that as soon as one of the four regains fitness they're going to be dropped regardless of their performances?

Look at any moderately successful cricket team in the world, and you can see that only through perseverance can world-class players establish themselves. There is a period of adjustment that must take place. Only very few, very rare players are able to adapt instantly and become an overnight success. This is where England when wrong from 1985 - 1995 - they expected players who did well at county-level against county-opposition to instantly turn into world-beaters the moment they stepped up the the National team. It doesnt happen like that.

Interesting, isn't it? A young and upcoming side, shorn of some of its biggest names for various reasons, comes up against an ageing side with question marks against it, which hoping for a last hurrah.

Sounds just like the last Ashes series! And much as we would like to forget it, we all remember how that ended.

It is an inherently unpredictable series. All logic says that an Australian side shorn of so many class players and with problems in key areas such as the threadbare spin bowling must start to lose series and lose them badly soon. However, the Indian batting line-up is always over-rated by the Indian fans who have all to often watched agast as good - and even some mediocre (in winter 2005/06 they barely scrambled a draw from a home series against an England 3rd XI) -attacks demolish it.

In recent years the Australian aura of invincibility has won them series that they should have lost. India though will not have that respect and will be baying for revenge for the series in Australia. Which side will show its frailties most? Right now you have to bet on India, but the Indian side growing old together and soon they will go through the same kind of reonovation that Australia have suffered.

#9 - "Most people are unanimous"

Now there's an expression to make one smile.

The only problem is, presumably the people who disagree with you on Gower/Waugh are also unanimous?

Re point 14. Sorry again Oliver, your article clearly implies that Gower was correctly dropped as he was past his best, coming directly after you mention the great Mark Waugh and then vindicate the decision to drop him by the Australian selectors. Therefore, it is relevant to your article to disagree with that premise re Gower. However, if you'd like to post a blog on the Gooch / Gower debate or the Gower / Waugh debate I'll gladly respond there :)

On the wider topic I think players should clearly be selected on merit and form rather than reputation. Hence the defence of Gower who was in good form when dropped.

The suggestions that Gooch dropped Gower for the purely selfish reason of wanting the Test batting record for himself is nonsense. Post #12 has it right: Gooch was all about hard work, practice and a certain type of professional attitude. Not to say that Gower wasn't professional, but he had a very different approach which didn't fit in with Gooch's rigorous regime.

I find it strange that our best batsmen are so often accused of being selfish, the latest example being KP. Seems if anyone makes stacks of runs for us, someone has to have a go at them. You don't see Aussie or Indian supporters doing that to Ponting, Tendulkar and their other stars. Just a thought.

India is having advantages over Aussies in few departments. The most important is the experience.
This series has become more interesting not only for me but for every one as Saurav Ganguly has announced his retirement after this series.

There is some merit to dropping a player because of his attitude of course (re;Gower/Gooch), and that is the effect it may have on other members of the team/squad.

Oliver! See, I may have got on your case with the Durham article but it's not just mindless rant. Well, generally.

The dropping of Gower was a dreadful decision. Funny to think that both Gower and Botham played their final tests in that Pakistan series yet nobody talks of Botham's final game whilst Gower's dropping still gets tongues wagging now. That says it all about how bad the decision was to drop Gower.

But India! Yes, India. I feel they have given the young players a chance but when those players fail, as Yuvraj has done, as Kaif has done, etc etc, it's very easy to turn back to someone like Laxman or Ganguly. Ganguly's decision to retire at the end of this series is a good one. Kohli, Raina or Sharma will come in and be given a chance to perform. Of the three, I'd go for Raina. Kohli is very raw, Sharma still learning. If I were Gary Kirsten, I'd be encouraging both Kohli and Sharma to get over to England for a season of county cricket and to broaden their development.

How can most people be unanimous, Oliver? That's gibberish, however you slice it.

The grace and elegance of Mark Waugh didn't escape me at all, as I made perfectly clear in my original comment. I simply pointed out that the vast majority of cricket fans and writers would put Gower ahead of him on that count. I stand by that. I'm not sure where Steve Waugh comes into it at all.

As for your sniffy "and not just on TV", well I can say the same, thanks.

What will be interesting in this series is to see if there is any stand-out team left in world cricket. Many people believe that Australia have come back to the pack. India have, once again flattered to deceive and are not the force that they were: will they ever become the best side in the world, or even make a sustained case to be at least #2? England have gone backwards seriously since 2005. South Africa promise, but need to end their hex against Australia to be taken seriously. Sri Lanka depend too much on just two or three players to get to the top, with their biggest stars reaching the end of their careers now. And Pakistan are so inconsistent that they seem capable of going from dire to brilliant even in the course of a day's cricket.

Over the next 12 months the world order of Test cricket is likely to be shaken up completely, with several of the top sides going through a major generational renewal. Right now Australia are still top dogs, with South Africa their nearest challengers: will this still be true by the end of next year? Somehow I think not, but who the top three will be is not so obvious.

Micheal Vaughan survived for around three years with battting like this... I need not say more...

Ganguly should go... but as for Tendulkar, he is till classsss.... Agaist the Aussies in Tests and ODIs he was brilliant!

And against the Lankans, name me one player except Sehwag who did play well...

Sachin was extremely unlucky as he never struggled against the spin of Mendis or Murali- but 'kept finding ways to get out' as Boycott described as he did deem in 'fine form'...

The problem is, people like Oliver Brett don't watch the matches but just look at the scores in the end and just make such outrageous articles... If you saw it you would have realised that there were only two players seemed as if they could play mendis- sehwag and tendulkar...

But Lankans kept defensive fields to Tendulkar and bowled on one side of the wicket- and he just kept getting frustrated and gave his wicket away... But one must remember he just cameback from another injury!

People need to watch more before making comments... seriously!

I am actually in agreement with Oliver that perhaps some of the older players have outstayed their welcome. I think the series in Australia just showed the dramatic difference in fitness and ability as opposed to the 2003 series when all these players were at their peak.

Only VVS Laxman and perhaps Tendulkar in the ODI's were able to cope with the Aussies in Australia. I think its high time, Ganguly and Dravid go. Its sad but so is the ending of every career.

The start of a new beginning will always hit rocky patches and you need some experience to help it develop and right now India finds itself in a good place with the likes of Badrinath who is a seasoned first class cricket, Aakash Chopra and Kaif ready and also the likes Yuvraj Singh also while not yet mentally settled pushing hard for a place in the longer form of the game.

Having said that though it is also unfair to burden the next set of youngsters like Sharma and Raina with the responsibility straight away, while they will have to carry the weight of the nation, it is almost a disservice to first class cricket to ignore players able to perform presently.

India will have to be very mindeful about what is the right thing to do when moving on after the Australian series, I am personally in favor of new leadership. Its time for Dhoni to take his place at the top.

Mr Brett. Good article on the whole but one point need to be revisited. Since Ganguly made his comeback which comprises the last 15 test matches he has made over 1500 runs at 50. Way higher than his career average of 41.
So for you to say that he is very lucky to make it to the team for the upcoming Banglore test is abit over the top. Ever since his comeback in 2006 Ganguly after being left out for over a year has further cemented what people think of him, a man with an exceptional reservoir of courage, character and never say die attitude.
Just because of one series against lets face it Mendis he is being castigated. Ihave played and watched cricket for over 15 years and I find it odd that the one player who seems more of an easy target than others is always hit first. All of the fab four struggled against Mendis and none of them had the superb year that ganguly has had since his comeback. Lets face it Dravid or tendulkar should have been on the chopping block much as I admire dravid BUT he has looked woeful of late. tendulkar is a demi-god in India and so would never ever be dropped. We will probably see him coming out to bat with a walker or a walking stick before he is dropped.
Any batsman would have struggled against MENDIS who in my humble opinion will end up with the test match wickets record before he retires. If he had the ability to make the fab four struggle like a toddler first learning to walk I wonder what the English, South african and new zealand batsman will do against him. I shudder at the thought.
All in all, Ganguly a great leader who changed the way India played cricket. He developed an aggressive, in your face Indian team mentality a far cry from the lambs that were paraded out to be regularly slaughtered by the marauding Pakistan teams of the 90's at sharjah(wasim, waqar, sohail, anwar, inzi, malik, ejaz ahmad and the rest). Now the indian team is to be feared the only team who can beat Australia at their own game. Once the fab four retires or fab 3(ganguly already tendering his resignation yesterday) we will see the indian team struggle, however one thing will stay constant and that is their aggressive mode of playing, legacy of the greatest captain they ever had Saurav Ganguly. Cheers.

Oh and by the way I am a Pakistani.

P.s. brett ganguly made three hundreds and three fifties in 2007. the facts speak for themselves. I would appreciate a reply .

Mr.Brett, being a sport correspondent for the 91Èȱ¬ should carry some responsibilities and I must take issue with any other batsman being compared to Gower and being found inferior for garce of batting. I have watched Mark Waugh, Gower, Graeme Pollock as well as that tall elegant Pakistani Batsman Zaheer Abbas and of the four, Gower was without peer when it came to elegance, I can remember time after time when a mere lazy waft at the ball would send the ball screaming to the boundary.

David Gower was indeed a supremely elegant batsman, but prone to being caught in the slips wafting outside his offstump.

weak spin bowling?
i suppose, but with white, pup(M Clarke), and krejza all in the squad
anything is possible

remember pups 3 wickets in 5 balls in the SCG test

The media play an active part in disrupting and blaming out-of-form players. If that player is over 30 then immediately questions get asked about whether the batsman is over the hill and too old to be playing at the top level.

There is also the desire to have the possibility of young player challenging for these places and being the next big thing which leads to hype, overhype and then pressure which negatively affects some players performances.

This sort of idle speculation does nothing for the game. I truly dislike this.

Oliver, may I suggest you research stats more comprehensively before scribing such articles. you appear not have researched Ganguly's test record in last 15 or so tests and to even suggest dropping Tendulkar is utter tripe. The guy is still capable of winning a test match on his own . Come the end of the series you will be eating your words Mr Brett.......................................... By the way please don't compare the likes of Waugh to David Gower. The latter was far more talented and was/is the most graceful batsmen I have ever seen, His batting was a thing of beauty. Gower was only dropped because Gooch felt it was more important to have conforming robots in his team than geunine talents who would have given them more chances to actually win test matches oh and the record number of test runs thing.....

Was Graham Pollock elegant? Normally big guys are not very elegant and tend use their muscularity to dominate, which I guess they should if you are blessed with the power. The likes of Hayden, Symonds, Flintoff,Pietersen come to mind.

Anyway, I guess there are rare exceptions.

looking forward to this titanic clash.... hope fab four will finish on high....

Come on India!!!

The fab four have for many years been the saviours for Indian cricket and soon it will be time for the young generation and this will be a tough decision for BCCI to choose the next players to play in that middle order that for over a decade has had the same names on it. The BCCI have concentrated on IPL and getting money they really haven't thought about getting the next generation into Test Cricket. From the Dhoni's Young Guns you can only see the likes of R.Sharma, S.Raina and G.Gambhir being the most successful as they look like they could play test cricket. For me Yuvraj has had his chance and he ain't consistent enough to be playing test cricket.

David Gower made Mark Waugh look like a constipated Graham Gooch.....

Oliver

I agree and disagree with you at the same time. I do agree that Rohit Sharma is a good batsman, but i really dont know whether he has in him to stand up to the Aussies. I would prefer Sharma to play the lesser teams in test cricket before he takes on the mighty aussies. If Sharma was included instead of one of the 'fab four' and he has a bad series, the indian public would not forgive the selectors or the captain for tha choice.

Let The Wall take his final guard against the Aussies!

Oliver,

Well I know its rather late...but Ganguly and Tendulkar have proved their critics wrong.

Also what has age got to do with sport? As long as they perform and are competitively selected its should be fine.

Gower has class and he should have been in that team for that reason.

Cheers

It looks like India are going to win the second test!

Experienced Indian batsmen have been feasting on the Aussie bowling. Ganguly, Sachin, Veeru, Gambhir and MSD have made their intentions clear. Rahul and VVS are sure to join the party in the coming encounters. Indian bowlers are looking very sharp.

The present Aussie side is a good fielding side. But they are a bit short on experience in batting as well as bowling.

Indian selectors have played safe by fielding their most trusted guys. The "Fab Five" and their upcoming colleagues should not have any hiccups on their way to lifting the Gavaskar- Border Trophy.



Dr. Cajetan Coelho

Yes, time has come for Ganguly and Dravid to retire. Fortunately, there are able replacements for them around, but one must keep expectations low, because no one will every come close to them. Badrinath is around, and Rohit Sharma and Virat Kohli.
And yes, why this love for Aakash Chopra? Because he writes for bbc? He is over 31, and his test average is 23, for god's sake! Virat Kohli should be the man to look to, and young players like Manoj Tewari or Dinesh Karthik or Robin Uthappa.