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Super Blog as always Tim.
Just wandering why Diego and Hernanes are not in the Brazil squad for the Confederations Cup? And how do you rate Brazil's chances of winning it.

A solid central defensive partnership is a must for any team in the long term. So many things depend on confidence in your back central pairing. The full backs must know they can go forward without being scared of the counter attack overwhelming the remaining defence. The central midfielders must be able to push through the middle with confidence, knowing their centre backs will move with them without exposing the goalie too much.

Brazil has produced a fair few who signify the best and the worst of this. I remember watching Lucio play with Roque Santa Cruz in the late 90's and marvelling at how solid one was and being amazed the other could make it into any international side, never mind Brazil's!

It is perhaps, bearing all this in mind, that England haven't achieved more. We may be lacking a consistent right back but whatever your opinions of the rest we have two of the very best central defenders in the world and a left back who is at least one of the best. I realise entirely that the old (predominantly British) notion that South American teams have a tendency to be shakey at the back is nonsense but I look at some of the defenders who have achieved greatness with Brazil and Argentina, then I look at England's defence for the past ten years and I can't help than think there must be much more to a good defence than simply having top defenders.

England haven't achieved much recently because we're not producing the creative players.

In the last 10 years only two really top quality forwards have come through - Owen and Rooney. Compare this to other nations.

Our one real 'playmaker' type is Joe Cole, and although he is a talented player he can't be compared to the best in the world. There is no english Ribery, no english Messi, no english Iniesta, no english Kaka.

...and please don't mention Gerrard and Lampard. They're the typical english box-to-box players, they're the current players in the line that includes David Platt, Bryan Robson, Gerry Francis, Alan Ball. They have a great shot, can score goals and jhave an engine but they don't necessarily dribble, have great technique or provide creativity- thats what you need to win games at the highest level.

# 4 and 5 Subterranean

I dont know how long you've been looking for a 'way in' to criticise the English players and the quality of playmakers produced recently, but a blog on Ecuador's centreback pairing is probably not the right place to do it...

Your point about there being no english messi or kaka etc, is a good one but if we did have one of these players we wouldn't be english - our style is a physical one, and for many years will stay that way - changing the mentaliy of a country won't be easy.

Our closest match would be germany and going onto your other point of a lake of quality forwards - that is what has lacked more than a dribbling superstar.

I have no doubt that we would have achieved what germany has achieved in the last 10/15 years had we produced a proper number 9.

If we had produced a proper number 9? Someone like, oh I don't know, Alan Shearer perhaps?

#6 I concur!

If I've inadvertently started a debate on the best England XI then I heartily apologise, my sole point was to look at teams who have varying supposed standards of defending on paper.

Debates such as Gerrard Vs. Lampard are tedious in the extreme.

Tim... Changing the subject back to Ecuador, I notice looking at the current Ecuador squad for upcoming matches that the squad only has THREE players under the age of 23 (Rojas, Caicedo and Montero.) Is this a sign that the team relies heavily on experience or more than there is a lack of new talent coming through to replace older players?

Out of the aformentioned three, have you been impressed by the two still based in South America?

Gerrard not a creative player? I don't know who you've been watching. Kuyt looks lost without Gerrard on the field to pick him out and Torres comes alive when he knows Gerrard is on the field to spot his runs. Gerrard's vision is second to none, he lacks the finesse and touch of Kaka but his passing is right up there with the best.

England's problem is that we relied for too long on Beck's cross (which is the best in the world), needing players in the box we have gotten used to slowing play to let the strikers (and Lamps) get in there, which when we don't have a great passer like Becks and a mover like Shearer on the pitch means we're predictable. We need to develop a more dynamic approach and with Joe Cole, Walcott, Rooney and Gerrard we certainly have the players, we just need the mentality as when these guys are standing with their back to goal waiting for the ball to catch up they are nowhere near as effective.

Personally I still think if he can maintain fitness Ashton is our best chance for a focal point of attack around which these players can move (more) freely.

GErrard is not a creative player. Compare his passing ability and ability to spot a pass to Iniesta, Xavi and Fabregas. Then weep. All he can do is a crossfield ball. The same with all English players bar maybe Rooney who is more creative then him and he's not even a midfielder.

Hurtado and Espinoza have been marvellous for Ecuador who have enjoyed the best 7 or 8 years in their history capped off with Ligas win in the Libertadores.They made a disastrous start to these eliminatorias and have recovered but now need 4 points from the Peru and Argentina games to keep momentum going.As to Argentine futbol declineing yhea right we are gone we have only won 3 out of the last 4 World sub 20 titles the last 2 Olimpics Its obviously hard times ahead.The only real problem with Argentine futbol is the disastrous reign of Aguilar in River who has brought the great club to its knees.However he will be replaced by year end and Enzo Francescoli will probably come in as genereal manager to guarantee transparency well then watch out cos Barcas youth scheme is nothing to Rivers

I often wonder what national FA's in small countries do when they suddenly find themselves staring down the barrel of a footballing decline.

Playing for your nation may be more of a calling than a job when compared to club football but there is still a business behind the scenes. The people who run the Ecuador FA will all be paid by the money that the national team generates from gate receipts, TV revenue and endorsements. That revenue is obviously reduced if you fail to qualify for major tournaments. If you do this more often than not then status drops, interest drops and suddenly your revenue stream is a fraction of what it was.

Ecuador's FA, just like everyone in the world, will think of their jobs, their pay, bonus's and their significant amount of corporate hospitality when they play abroad. The prospect of a national team failing to replace a quality generation must be a frightening one. And for Ecuador the options are so much more limited than other countries.

You can scour the clubs for more players with potential but a country with a population of less than 15m is less likely to have untold hidden talents hiding away in some lower league. You can look for players who can be naturalized as citizens as Spain and Portugal have but it's hard to believe many overseas players stay long enough in Ecuador domestically to get a passport without moving on to a bigger league or being called up by their native country.

We in England may have had some duff teams in our day, some pretty average players have worn the shirt and we've missed out on occassional tournaments but we are blessed never to find ourselves in the world of the minnows.

It must be pretty hard to see round the corner as an Ecuador football fan or Ecuador FA employee, I guess you hope for a miracle. Maybe right now the next Messi is playing in the streets of La Paz as a 12 year old.

One thing you can say about Ecuador though Tim is that Sash produced a cracking song for them....

Great piece on centre-backs, Tim.

I was very impressed with the physical power of the Equador side on the last match against Brazil back in March. Altitude aside, they were so strong that if they weren't so poor in shooting on target they would have ripped Brazil apart. It was a memorable match for the in form goalkeeper Julio Cesar, outstanding performance.
How so unfair was it when Julio Baptista came in from the bench and scored on his first action? Brazil was very lucky to go away with a 1x1 draw.

I wish we had a defender like Bellini playing nowadays. People say he was not only very elegant but quite good looking too. We seriously lack good looking players in this Brazilian side. Lucio is a fantastic defender, but doesn't have a hint of Bellini's glamour.
Perhaps I am asking too much.

Hi Tim

I was reading up about the World Cup for 2014 and it now appears that the only single country in South America that can host a World Cup is Brazil, unless the cut back the number of teams which is something FIFA will never want to do. How realistic would it be that the whole continent of South America host the event sometime in the future which would allow smaller nations such as Columbia and Uruguay to host some of the World Cup matches. After all if the US and Russia can host the event despite their sheer size then why cant whole continent? Moreover if Europe did the same thing, say for 2018, it would open the opportunity for nations such as Scotland and Wales to host World Cup Finals as well

#3 Lucio playing alongside Roque Santa Cruz? You probably meant Roque Junior.

Great article Tim. I think that the best pairing of centre backs in South American football was that of Celso Ayala and Carlos Gamarra for Paraguay. Together they were immaculate, playing in two WC (1998 and 2002). Paraguay still produces top quality players in that position: Caceres, Da Silva, and Veron.

17. That is a rubbish idea. It won't be the whole of Russia hosting the event. All the cities involved will be West of the Urals. It is not like teams are going to pop over to Vladivostok for a game. I agree it is still a big area but that is Russia.

Regarding Europe and South America you could have joint bids if one country alone does not have the facilities. For example Scotland and Wales, or South Korea and Japan. More than 2 countries would be ridiculous.

Sorry, forgot to say. Great blog Tim. Always the first I read.

What do you make of the number of South Americans that come to Russia? We've obviously had Jo and Wagner Love among others. Do you think it is a good move for them?

From my point of view it gives them good exposure in the Champions' League if they go to a top club but sometimes the Russian League lacks quality. I can't compare it to South America but it is a long way behind England, Spain and Italy and on a par with France and Germany.

Good article, getting the balance between steel and elegance at centre half is up there with striking options as the most important aspect of building a football team.

One thing that always frustrates me about watching South American defending is the disciplinary aspect - referees seem to cut them no slack at all, although that's not to say that there isn't an uncanny willingness to clatter into attackers at a moment's notice. Maybe it's something to do with the footballing mentality in that part of the world.

Perhaps my ideal South American centre half of recent times was the Uruguayan, Paolo Montero - strong, quick, supremely talented, a born leader: pity he used to get sent off all the time.

#18

You're entirely right, not exactly identical names are they?! My mind going faster than my typing I suspect and not bothering to proff read as I go.

Yeah, Paolo Montero was a great player. I remember Menotti saying of him "the next Passarella," while coaching Penarol in the early 90s.

A Chile-Argentina bid would be okay.

#25 Can't see that happening for a long long time, surely as a reader on South American football you should know that Chile and Argentina don't get along very well? That's on ANY level BTW.

At 6. I was responding to Joe Green's remark in post 3. where he began wondering why England fail at international level if we have top quality centre halves and a quality left back in Ashley Cole.

I actually found that a more interesting topic than Ecuador's ageing centre halves, to be honest.

At 10. I don't believe Gerrard is a creative player in the true sense. He plays well in the role he has for Liverpool, arriving late in the box and playing off Torres. Liverpool's most creative players are Xabi Alonso, and Benayoun/Riera from wide positions.

At 22. and 24. I always thought Paolo Montero was an absolute liability.

The best South American centre halves of recent times were without doubt Roberto Ayala of Argentina, Lucio of Brazil of course, and Carlos Gamarra of Paraguay.

We (Birmingham City) are currently linked with Geovanny Espinoza (or so the papers say anyway...)

Nice to see an article about him as i'd not heard of him before. Nevertheless, seems a gamble to me bringing him to the premiership for the first time at 32. Do you think he could cut it Tim?

Tim,

Great article. However, Hurtado is definitely two or three steps slower than he used to be and has not been able to keep his feet on the ground. As a Millonarios fan, I've seen him produce rare great displays but he's been mainly poor and conflictive this year. He gave away quite a few goals this semester and is likely to leave the team this summer. Personally, I didn't even want him to come back for this semester after he picked up an "injury" during international duty that kept him from going back to Bogota. The funny thing is that Ecuadorian doctors could not point to the exact nature of the injury and Millonarios' medical staff were not given access to the player. After a few weeks in Quito he came back miraculously cured. He's definitely overpaid and I can't wait to see him leave the team.

On the other hand, I do see your point and, in his prime, he was one of the top defenders in South America.

Re post 21 - Argentina may not have the number of cities, but the stadia is there. How many are there in Bs. As. alone? Colombia did try to bid for 2014 but it was a lost cause. The other 9 federations were behind Brazil's candidature, worldwide opinion's (including that of almighty Blatter) favored Brazil, and, sadly and honestly, the security situation is still not the best in Colombia -although it is much safer to be in Bogota than in Rio at night-. Colombia also earned the right to host the 1986 World Cup but internal politics made us give it up.

At this point, and after all these years of great Lula leadership, there is no other country in South America better suited to host it then Brazil. However, I would not rule out a single-host tournament in South America in 2026 or 2030.

Tim, I also can't understand why Fabio Aurelio haven't been picked, but what about Maxwell? I rate him a lot better than Kleber and Andre Dias, plays for a BIG european club and does very good! Why he has been overlooked by every brazilian coach?

Great piece again Tim.
I've been looking quite a bit of Bundesliga and Dutch Eredivisie for a while and I noticed that there is quite a large contigent of Brazilians that came from the lower leagues, i.e. Douglas Franco Teixeira now at Twente came from Joinville, Everton Ramos da Silve from Grêmio Barueri ,Caiuby at Wolfsburg and came from São Caetano, Cicero at Hertha from Tombense and Naldo at Werder. All these players came from relatively minor clubs in Brazil and have made a very good impression abroad. Do you think it would be worth for the bigger European teams to scout the lower leagues in South America for a bargain or two?

#14 - good points, but if the 12 year old was playing in the streets of La Paz, that would make him Bolivian, not Ecuadorean

#26 That's what they said of Japan and Korea and you know how that ended.

Hi Tim,
I was just wondering what you make of Leonardo's promotion to be the new AC Milan manager, and whether you think he will be successful as a manager?

What do you make of Brazils squad? few surprise inclusions and no diego. Do you think they can beat Spain? And why is there so many qualifiers for South American teams??

There are so many qualifiers because every country got put in one group, home and away, so WC qualification has also become an unofficial South America international league tournament, almost making the Copa America redundant.

Great blog, as always Tim, and I'm interested to see that Ecuador is undergoing something that Paraguay recently underwent too. I mean, between 2002 and 2006, Paraguay lost Francisco Arce, Carlos Gamarra and Celso Ayala, yet right now they not only are in first place in the qualifiers, but have the second best defense.

So, is there still hope for Ecuador too?

A joint bid between Argentina and Uruguay would be interesting, but the problem is that only one city is allowed to have two stadia elected according to the rules, so there would need to be a minimum of 9 cities capable of hosting World Cup games. Argentina is a huge country, the province of Buenos Aires alone is much bigger than the UK for example. A World Cup would need to be spread around the country somewhat, and flying between Buenos Aires and San Miguel de Tucumán would take 3-4 hours alone.

In Uruguay, alongside Montevideo, Colonia del Sacramento would be a nice, picturesque choice, there is already an old bullfighting ring that could be converted into a stadium that could hold 30,000 and be rolled back to 15,000 afterwards. Punta del Este is a mainly tourist resort that could possibly do a job of hosting games.

As for Argentina, I will assume Buenos Aires hosting two stadia as a given (Monumental and La Bombonera). There is also Rosario, La Plata, Santa Fe and Mar del Plata in relative proximity. Further away lie Cordoba, Salta, Jujuy, Tucuman and Mendoza, all of which have a strong football culture and are able to cater for large amounts of tourists. Also worth a mention would be Bariloche and San Juan.

Back in April Tim you wrote an excellent article aboutPellegrini the manager of Villareal. Well he has been snapped up by Real Madrid their 8th manager in five years.

Do you think he will bring some stability to Real Madrid, How did you rate Neymar? Never got the chance to ask you on WFPI did ask you about him Jan 2008 and you said to much pressure on a then 15 year old.

good point on ecuador, tim. noticed that combination in germany at the world cup, but they were often overlooked and undervalued by most commentators. thanks for reminding us...

Pellegrini is a superb coach and will handle the pressure at Madrid.He was superb at Villareal and did the business with San Lorenzo.At River he was good won a title but the lunatics here didnt realise the good job he was doing and forced him out and look where it brought us.
Is it Nilmar you are talking about shotgooner the Internacional Player?

I saw the Santos -Corinthians game this weekend when this pibe came on.But I dont remember him from the Sudamericano sub 17 did he play?

Hi, Tim.
What do you think about Renato Augusto from Bayer Leverkusen? To me he seems to have all the attributes of a special Brazilian player. He's quick, skillful in the extreme, can score goals, is creative, and works hard. I thought he'd be in the frame for a call-up for sure. I also think he may be destined for a bigger club. Do you think he could make it, or is he another Mancini, another who can flatter to deceive when called up to the big teams.

Hi Tim,

Why was the likes of Gilberto Silva and Josue included in the Confederations cup squad ahead of Ronaldinho and Anderson? and please could you write an article the brazillian public opinion on Dunga's style of play and recent results.... Brazil are known to be the team with all the flair and tip tap passes but the evolution of the Spanish maestro in Iniesta, Xavi, Silva and Sienna have taken all attention away from Brazil as they have not been winning in style lately.. The Spanish national team is everyone's bet to win the confederations cup and world cup...

Regarding Brazil, I think that whenever they arrive at a tournament with more doubts than certainties, they end up doing well. They won in 1994 and 2002 arriving quietly. We know what happened in Germany 2006.

I think it does no harm to Brazil the fact that in everyone's opinion Spain is the main favorite to win next year.

As a Brazilian, I'm rooting for Spain in the Confederations Cup.
They're playing an amazing style of football, and Brazil doesn't deserve to win anything with this "coach".
The reason for the constant calling of Gilberto Silva is an enigma for everyone in Brazil, same for Josue, Elano, Luisao and some others.
I don't know if they will play, but you guys should watch Ramires (recently bought by Benfica) and Nilmar, great players, who will probably never come off the bench because of Dunga.
As for Ronaldinho, he ins't playing at all in Milan, Anderson will undergo surgery, and Lucas (I know most of you from UK don't like him, but we think he has potential) hasn't been called since the Olympics.

And Tim, Kleber of Cruzeiro is linked to a move to Liverpool. With his style of play, I think he will do well in the EPL. What do you think?

Tim!

Someone's already asked this but I'll ask again just in case you didn't see. Do you think Geovanny Espinoza could cut it in the Premier League? As a Birmingham fan I am most curious as we've been linked with him!

Tim,

The move of Ancelotti to Chelsea has obviously given the media the bait to now link pretty much every Milan player to a Premiership move but the one that most caught my eye was Pato.

I feel almost certain that there's nothing to this unless Milan have financial problems they're not revealing as Pato has been nurtured by Milan and I understand his family came over with him. Presumably he's been learning Italian, along with his family and has been adjusting to the Italian way of European life. I've seen him play a few times, probably about 6 or 7 full games which I readily admit isn't enough to fully gauge his worth, but all the boxes are ticked as it were and he seems the complete striker package, his goal tally for one so young speaks for itself.

You've written extensively about the cultural impact of players leaving South America too soon, I wondered what you thought about Pato potentially leaving Italy so relatively soon after arriving. Do players become adjusted to European life compared to South America only to find the differences within Europe (weather, food, culture) are equally defined and sometimes hard to cope with?

I think many people in Europe stereotypically think Spanish speaking nations in South America are much of a muchness and wondered if players coming over to Europe ever make the same error.

Re:37
I know this is massively off topic, but I had this idea some time ago and haven't found the right forum to air it.
Do you think that international football in Europe could/should be based on the South American system? What I mean is you could have 8/10-team divisions (with promotion and relegation obviously) played over a 2-year cycle to replace the 6-7 team qualifying groups. At the moment European teams only get 4-6 really competitive games (often less) outside of world/euro championships whereas the South Americans get at least 10 and more likely 14-16.
Qualifying for WC or Euros could be automatic i.e. top 15 places in the league get to play or be held just as 2-legged play-offs.

52 - Would that make a low co-efficient nation need 8 years to have the chance to qualify for a major competition? Not very fair I presume.

South American system only works because we're in a small number of countries. Which is not the case of Europe.

What could be done, and I've been wondering about it a long time, is some kind of World League, replacing the qualifying and the friendlies and with it's end culminating with the World Cup, which would lose it's group phase. Of course it would still take longer for a low co-efficient nation to get to the major competition, but that would be done in worldwide scale.

Djalma Santos
Nílton Santos

Always good to have a Santos no lateral. Aldair and Garrincha too.......

Plus Dunga saw André Santos at the Final of the Paulistão.


The only Spurs supporter on the Tobogã

found it funny some of your words about the tow defenders difference in style of play wa same as in the wikipedia explanation......
But great blog as always...

Football writing is a funny old game, one might say a game of two halves. Some articles look strong on paper but lack something in the final third. I think you've got to write with your heart on your sleeve, treat each article like a cup match and avoid cliche's.

On far-flung World Cup venues, Australia is bidding to hold a WC, which I think is mad. A continent-sized country with a population of 20 million, five hours flying time from Brisbane halfway up the East coast to Perth in the West. Association Football support lags behind AFL, rugby league and rugby union, the A-league is at best English Division One (which is the third English division) standard, crowds generally around 10,000, a massive cost for non-Australian fans to get here and travel between venues, and a very poor time-zone for most overseas tv spectators. The sheer passion for football of South America should put it way ahead of Australia, there are great stadia which will draw great crowds.

The Aussie bid is supported by our Prime Minister Kevin Rudd, whose only connection to football is that his head is round.

And I know many have said this, but, yes, Tim, your blog is very interesting!

Tim,

Speaking of Ecuadorian players, please tell us all you know about Christian Benitez just signed by Birmingham City. Will he keep us up? Will he fire us to Europe?!!

Tim,
I'm a Birmingham fan too (see ppl752's point above), and also, obviously, hope that Christian Benitez is a good buy. Birmingham don't have an unblemished record in bringing over South American talent (Luciano Figueroa, Alberto Tarantini to name the 1st 2 that come to mind) & I'd be interested in your thoughts as to what it is - if there is any particular attribute - that determines whether a South American player succeeds in the UK. Figueroa didn't have it (or so thought Steve Bruce, and it increasingly appears that he knows what he's talking about): does Benitez have it?
CR

The notion of Conejo Tarantini failing at BIRMINGHAM is really mindboggling.Could I suggest that your tecnico at the time didnt know much about futbol

lasaetarubia: Marangoni was a great player but he did not cut it in England either. So what is your point?

Have there been a couple of players called Ivan Hurtado doing the rounds over the last few years? I'm sure one played for Hibs in Scotland. I also recall one nicknamed "the tank" who was an absolute bruiser who played up front or at centre half. Could have been the same guy?

And while we're on the subject of South American centre halves I just felt I had to mention my personal favourite - Aldair. Strong, elegant, a good user of the ball. A fantastic, loyal servant to a Roma squad that was often mediocre, when I'm sure he must have had plenty of offers to go on to bigger and better things (and I say that as a Roma fan). I remember being especially happy for him when we eventually won the scudetto that he deserved.

Hi Tim, great blog.

I`m a first time poster on this and was wondering what you think of Man Utd`s argentine Rodrigo Possebon, i hear he is well thought of at utd but has`nt been given much of a chance

Thank you very much for this blog Tim. I especially enjoyed the line about Hurtado, the "professor".

A question that relates to my name:

Do you believe that Argentina need (or have ever needed) a top class goalkeeper to win the World Cup again, and do you see much young hopes waiting in the wings?

and #64

i think you mean the brazilian Possebon!

Catch S.American WC qualifiers on Sky Sports


Uruguay vs Brazil 20.00

Bolivia vs Venezuela 21.50

Argentina vs Colombia 22.00

Paraguay vs Chile 22.35

Maradona has been moaning about the state of the River Plate pitch a couple of pop concerts been held there. Where they face Colombia,harder match will be next week when they face Ecuador away and the dreaded altitude problem at Quito.

Great Article Tim

I just set up a forum which is not just for Fluminense supporters, but people that follow Brazilian serie a, so check it out if you want to discuss anything about the Brazilian league or even Flu.



Cheers