Talking about sex
At the Asian Network we often hear of the dilemmas that come from growing up in a country where sex outside marriage is widely accepted while living in a culture where it isn't. Young British Asians are often in sexual relationships but their parents disapprove.
At its worst we see it in what are often called 'honour killings' - young women murdered because of disapproval of their sex lives. These of course are very very rare. But this week in the Asian Network Report (which you can listen to by clicking here) we had an insight into some more common problems faced by our audience. We were told by the Brook Advisory Clinic in Birmingham that proportionately more young Asians than non Asians are coming to them after having unprotected sex, and that proportionately more young Asian women are referred for abortions.
Why? Well at least in some cases it seems that young British Asians want the sex but don't want to have contraceptives at home in case their parents find them. We looked at this problem through the eyes of people in Birmingham and Glasgow. Some of it sounds almost romantic. A young woman told us about leaving pillows under her duvet to fool her parents as she shinned down a drainpipe to go out with her mates. Some of it was tragic. We heard the painful tale of a woman who had contracted genital herpes after unprotected sex. She now feels she can never have the arranged marriage she wanted. How would she explain her illness to any potential husband?
But what are we to learn from this. Does it show that conservative parents are right? No sex is the only safe sex? Or does it show that Asian mums and dads need to teach their children about condoms and STIs? Well, we asked in our phone in programme with Anita Rani if we needed to talk more with our parents about sex. NO came the resounding response. The last thing either side of this generational divide wanted to do was to discuss the issue...
Comments
As a Hindu parent I have discouraged my teenage children from going out to places where they might encounter drink/sex etc. Parents educated to Universtiy level(more integrated) have less control over their children as do those from a poorer background. If drinking, premaritial sex, single parent families not caring for the elderly etc is integration then it is not the type of intergration I envisige for my children.
So the conclusion is "Ohh well"?
I think the young people discussed in the article are in the front line of this difficult question: they have obviously been influenced by the attitudes of the dominant socity around them, whose mores in sexual questions their parents largely resist. Another generation may have to pass before a resolution which satisfies both the older and the younger generations is achieved.
Jayesh, then go and integrate somewhere else.
Albeit for me to intervene here as a white atheist, but it does have some relevance across the seeming cultural divide, so please bear with me. (I am by the way the mothr of teenagers). I use the word 'seeming' because the problems you say you are facing are not so far from the very ones the indigenous white population has been recently dealing with.
I would like to see Asian men and boys addressing their double standards. In the West our mothers and grandmothers have exposed the white British male's double standard and now we are on an equal footing over what we will or will not accept in terms of sexual morality.
What's good for the gander is also going to be just as good for the goose.
However, it is clear and very evident that some Asian males are using non-Asian women in a way that is unacceptable to both Asian women and non-Asian women and it's not at all clear that their own especially those confined to very closed communities are fully aware of this. This needs to be challenged from within the community.
Patriarchy thrives on this kind of divide, in fact it needs it in order to maintain the bizarre position it takes with its self interest. It usually does this dividing within its own community but were possible it uses women from other cultures when the conditions are available. This is true of white men abroad too. This is not a racial issue, it's an issue of male hegemony.
Patriarchy maintains two diametrically opposite things:
a) that men have sexual urges that are far stronger and less able to control than women have. This is of course nonsense and is maintained out of overt self interest.
b) men can have no certainty as to their progeny. This is true and worries them a lot. Unless they control and own women's reproductive abilities they can never be sure, so what to do? Read on.
Lets take b) first. This they do by restricting female sexuality by imposing on them various draconian conditions, these vary in different cultures from simply ostracising women who do not comply as morally wanting, through mutilation,(FGM) to killings, (so called "honour"). These severe restrictions on women will of course limit the possibility of satisfying the sexual needs men claim they have in point a).
Problem.
The Patriarch's Solution.
Divide women up into, "the good woman" she is kept pure until marriage to ensure that he knows who his progeny are. And she who satisfies his urgent "needs" he will not be marrying. This woman too is labelled so as not to be confused with the other kind of woman. This one is the "slapper." Now he is comfortable with all his needs dealt with, and never mind what it does to women.
This patriarchal behaviour was the 'norm' in British culture right up to the late 1950s, so it's not so alien to our culture as you might suppose. We have only just exposed our home grown patriarchs for the hypocrites they were, and it is quite depressing to see women in another culture struggling with the same thing all over again. It is therefore important to get these issues ironed out, the sooner the better.
Men in this the 21st century have to come to terms with the fact that there is not going to be one moral code for them and another for women. It's scary for them, but this society is not going to go backwards.
I wish you well.
I just think one of the saddest parts of this story is that the Asian young people don't want to talk to their parents about this. I wonder if their parents would regret this, I hope so!
Anita Rani was right in doing this documentary. We have also have the same problem in the US Latin Community.
Youngsters’ to talk to parents on sex before or after marriage sounds over frankness equivalent to shamelessness especially in the eastern societies.
Authenticated NGOs on sex welfare organizations having experts on sex matters may help a lot in this regard.
Notwithstanding, their advice needs to remain confined to married people only, not the unmarried ones to rescue the society from any sort of probable vulgarity including many other negativity that can infect the society.
Shame on you John.I see the point from Jayesh is more than relevent when I see comments like that.
Hang on a sec there, Jayesh!
Why do you link pre-marital sex with not caring for the elderly?
Anyhow, Pippop is quite right about her analysis of the patriarchal approach and the double standards of SOME asian young men.
A couple of years ago I had a relationship with an Asian man in his 30's.
He and his friends, all born and bred in London, went out with white girls and had sexual relationships with them outside of marriage. They did not do the same with Asian girls, as they were the sort of girls thaey would choose to marry and have meet their parents and families.
They chose to have their sexual relationships with white girls but would never have dreamed of having a serious relationship with her, or introducing her to their family. They went out with them only to satisfy these 'needs'.
All the time going back to their families as if butter woudn't melt in their mouth!
Needless to say, on finding out that I was perceived by the guy I was seeing to be of the 'slapper' type of woman that Pippop describes, I didn't stick around.
I have to say, that was just one experience with Asian men. I have had more positive, less hypocrtical ones - so I am not suggesting it is the the norm - just one experience, but it resonates well with Pippops post.
If you are a young women, knowing that your culture requires good girls to be abstemious, how on earth are you going to be able to talk about sex or even better safe sex with your parents?
I come from a liberal and secular background, but I like most people want very much for my parents to be proud of me. When I do, do something I don't think they would approve of (which is fortunatley rare, but probably not unheard of), I tend not to bring it up for the sake of family harmony.
It is always a problem when you try to hide something or ignore a problem until your child has got STD/HIV.
You think by ignoring the problem you can get rid of problem. I know of asian parents, who were worried sick that their 17 year old son is sexually active and might be doing it with under 16 girls. They couldn't gather the courage to talk to him about under age sex forget about the safe sex talk.
During my university days I remember one of the asian guy idea of safe sex was washing it with bacardi. He will never use condom in case it get discovered. He thought that he can get away if his mum find small bottle of bacardi on him rather than packet of contraceptives.
I think the NGOs/gov agencies should educate both parents and young people about refraining from sex or if they want to do it they should do it safely.
They should spread this messages at big gatherings, It will take lot of courage for someone to go to a gurudwara/temple/mosque gathering and give a talk on this subject or atleast distribute leaflets.
"very, very rare"?
I don't think so.
i'm a young person, and i find that that young people do understand sex and what it entails. most of us know what we are getting ourselves into - and trust me not being able to tlak to parents about things is definately not the issue. Young people know its risky business for themselves - they most certainly dont have to talk to their parents about it to know this or to be 'helped'. i think asian youngsters need to get back to their roots - no sex before marriage - may sound backwards but its a fact.
it all starts with hiding a boyfriend/girlfriend. once you manage that successfully you want to get to the next stage.
the question to ask here is that if young asians were able to talk to parents about sex etc does it really mean that young people will be more sensible?? lets take alcohol etc as an example- most parents know their kids drink, go out to clubs etc and youngsters know that binge drinking, addiction and lewd behaviour is created from excessive alcohol- it doesnt reduce the problem - this country has the highest rate of young drinkers in the EU. we seem to think that if the problem is out in the open then we can find a cure- the cure just ends up meaning that the act is ok to do. we can taalk about it and continue - there is no fear or limitation factor left once things are out in the open. Most youngsters, including myself are today still likely to think twice beofre getting into a sexual relationship simply because they know their family situation - surely if this prevents the problems then it can't be a bad thing.
it may sound backwards etc - but think how many problems would solve be solved if people did just wait till marriage- for starters there would be no need for such debate- it would reduce government spending tax money on free contraception, clinics, underage sex advice etc etc and protect youngsters from disease, emotional turmoil and unwanted pregnancies. it may even create more respect amongst youngsters towards one another and the opposite sex.
i agree 100% with Pippop
Pipopp you've hit the nail on the head....
Its a comfort to know that what one is sensing is not a unique thought and it is good to read here that others too have felt the same sense of what is now happening to British Asians.
Sadly we do not appear to have a single Asian male so far responding to what is surely a crucial aspect of their sex lives. What do they think about their double standards and are they going to own up to them and address the issue? Not even Husain Husaini has made a comment.
I am a mother of a 11 year old in India and the issue is really not asian vs non asian -it is about what we term progressive what is it that our cultures permit us to practise.
Struggling to promote condom usage even amongst the educated, the young disadvantaged females in our villages and towns are left with little options- pregnancy after marriage and unsafe abortions before marraige.
can we teach the young the fruits of being patient- of learning to love and live safely and slow down- life is no roller coaster ride- it only gets better with time.
A.R.Shams wrote: "Youngsters’ to talk to parents on sex before or after marriage sounds over frankness equivalent to shamelessness especially in the eastern societies."
People of marriageable age should have shame in talking about sex with their parents? Shame? And so what about sex education lessons at schools, long before marriageable age, which parents have a right to deny to their children? Should parents and children be filled with shame and not attend? Such obviously judgemental attitudes have the capability of causing much resentment.
This highlights a problem raised in a Channel Four programme recently, that funding special facilities for particular "communities" tends to be divisive.
It has taken many years to create ways to overcome the terrible shame and ignorance about health and sex and sexuality that blighted and destroyed so many lives. No one agreed that any community would, as a whole, be permitted to continue to exact that toll on their children and those others they encounter, to create an apartheid. Is the 91Èȱ¬ Asian Network not intended as essentially integrational?
reena wrote: "...we seem to think that if the problem is out in the open then we can find a cure- the cure just ends up meaning that the act is ok to do. we can taalk about it and continue - there is no fear or limitation factor left once things are out in the open. Most youngsters, including myself are today still likely to think twice beofre getting into a sexual relationship simply because they know their family situation - surely if this prevents the problems then it can't be a bad thing."
You think having young people living in fear is a good solution?
"it may sound backwards etc - but think how many problems would solve be solved if people did just wait till marriage- for starters there would be no need for such debate- it would reduce government spending tax money on free contraception, clinics, underage sex advice etc etc and protect youngsters from disease, emotional turmoil and unwanted pregnancies. it may even create more respect amongst youngsters towards one another and the opposite sex."
It works for those it suits, and is a disaster for others. Trying to impose it on all was tried, very extensively, in the UK, and we learned better. With marriage not happening until the mid-twenties on average, whilst most young people are thinking about sex by 15, and decent marriage partners very difficult to find, whatever culture one belongs to, or none, and whether one is straight or same-sex attracted, everyone waiting until marriage is quite unrealistic. Yes, outdated.
If that is what you want to do, and can do, then good luck. Just understand that others, without being any lesser people, cannot. And they need, and deserve the information and advice to be around, for both themselves and those they encounter, to be as safe as possible.
Contrary to popular belief girls who have ALL the facts about sex, contraception, pregnancy and childbirth tend not to enter into that part of their sex lives until they are older. They understand that for them it is quite a journey with consequences far more gruelling than anything the male has to face in terms of its toll on ones body.
Consider Holland, there the age of consent is 12yrs, in my opinion dangerously young, BUT these girls are armed with the facts and the teenage pregnancy rate there is very low.
Compare this to the teenage pregnancies, and even more sad, the child pregnancies outside the Western world. The greatest number of pregnant teenagers and pregnant children are in the so called third world where poverty, patriarchy and religion leave these children ignorant, used and abused.
These teenagers and children are of course mostly wives and so the religious ignore their plight regarding them as in a morally acceptable condition not in the least like those few hundred pregnant teenagers in the Uk who are held up as the fruits of a morally depraved country.
Note how teenage pregnancies and child pregnancies are only criticised if the females have no husband. It insults patriarchy to have the cheek to go ahead and do this alone.
It's not young girls and their physical and mental well being these religious patriarchs, and moralists are concerned about, if they were, they would be critical of those countries that permit young girls and children to be used as wives so very young.
The more girls have the facts, the less likely they are to enter this part of their lives too early. The cost to females, be it in the form of long term use of the pill; (we do not yet know what that will do to girls who start this before they have finished developing. The only long term research is on women now in their 60's who for social reasons didn't tend to embark on their sex lives until they were fully grown, early to middle 20s), or a failed contraception resulting in a pregnancy or abortion. All these factors will tend to make the female far more cautious about her sex life.
What we need are young boys socialised to respect that perspective and not, as we have now boys, who are self absorbed with their so called "need" for instant gratification.
We STILL haven't heard from young men about their double standards?
Well,im a 21 year old hindu indian girl.I have been brought up in a cultured educated family in india and i have been in uk for my studies now.My parents may not be very liberal,but they are moderate.I have been given all the values of an indian girl and i also have been given proper education and the liberty to live on my own in the uk.back home i did everything what normal teenagers in a big city do,ive always been allowed to go out late..have boyfriends..provided its a serious relationship.They would never approve of me being with a lot of boys before marriage cause like they say it spoils your name.But then they never asked me what i did..how far i should go sexually with a guy.They always told me I was big enough to make my decisions and they had given me all the moral values they could and i knew what was right or wrong and if i ever decided to ahead sexually with a guy they wanted me to take precautions because they could never be there at every single minute knowing what i do so it was best i knew what i was doing.
I do all things most english people here do..its not a culutural change for me now,i made my decisions early on in life and nothing has changed.I have been smoking and drinking since i was about 16 and ive had a few boyfriends,asian and english..It doesnt make me a bad indian girls..i just think im a lot more aware...I still respect my elders,i would still never raise my voice in front of my parents or disobey them and i would still do the things my grandparents expect a good indian girl to do like help out at home and fast and pray on big religious days..but at the same time i have the choice to go out to clubs at night,have boyfriends,live on my own and see the world myself.
I guess its all about everything in moderation.Most friends i have back home have strict parents and they go to extreme measures to break out of the wall they are restricted to and these girls are a lot crazier than me.The harder you try to
control,the more they break free.These are the kinda girls who really fool around and want to try whats being told is wrong.
Everyone has sexual desires if ur gonna try and restrict them,they are gonna do it,so its best you teach them what u can and leave the choice to the kids if they wanna follow what you have to say because eventually everyone does everything and its always on the sly.Times are changing,its a liberal world..you have to figure a way out to be liberal and cultured at the same time.
Precaution is definately always better than cure.
Dear Pippop,
I would like to answer your comments about double standards. I am a "young Asian male" (nearly 20, Indian and male - hope that counts). I have a little sister who is 15 and I would not ask her to do what I don't do and consequently I keep to strictest standards (I'm sure you all know what I mean by that...). I obviously have desires etc but I live like I do for the single reason of being able to say to my sister "this is what I think you should do..." and being able to say it with authority.
I just realised now how old this forum is but thought I should post anyway.
Dear anup,
wat i think tht, the more u will preserise not to do somthing, a person will definatly do tht, caz its a human nature watever u will hide then it will be more Curious to know. its a mordern age dear, and everyone is mature enough to knw tht wat is right n wat is wrong.
so i will only say : Precaution Is better than care