Why England may win historic Croker contest
- 20 Feb 07, 02:30 PM
Belfast - The England team will travel to Dublin this week well versed in the historical importance of Saturday's Six Nations match.
Former Ireland full-back is now the (English) Rugby Football Union's Director of Regional Academies and to allow rugby to play on the hallowed turf.
O鈥橲hea would have been the perfect intermediary as his father was a genuine GAA star who won three All-Ireland medals with Kerry in the Fifties.
Reams of paper, a spectrum of radio waves and have been filled explaining what Saturday鈥檚 visit of England really means. Hopefully history does not overshadow the future.
I would suggest that the 82,000-odd spectators do what the supporters did when England broke the "embargo" over travelling to Dublin during the height of the "Troubles".
What happened? Well, John Pullin鈥檚 side were afforded the biggest standing ovation in the history of Lansdowne Road. It was the biggest welcome any visiting team had witnessed when they ran on to the pitch.
Then Ireland, with a certain to the fore, proceeded to kick them back off it again. Led by Tom Kiernan, Ireland won 18-9 that day with debutant Dick Milliken and Tom Grace scoring tries.
I fancy Ireland will need some more of the same if England are to scuttle home defeated and better acquainted with the history of Irish forward play..
That, I feel, will be the key to the result, as it usually is. But I don鈥檛 think the Ireland pack have ignited all their rockets yet, hence the backs have been feeding on scraps. If there was ever a time for an 80-minute session like we witnessed against Australia back in November, this is it.
From start to finish, Ireland played like a team possessed against the Wallabies. They will need the same approach, a bit of good old-fashioned gut and gore. The whole key is to not let England settle, as France were allowed to do.
Then there is the Brian O鈥橠riscoll factor. He was missed against France. It will be his first trot on to the Croke Park turf, and you can bet he will want to enjoy himself and savour the occasion by leading Ireland to their fourth successive victory over the old enemy.
And let鈥檚 face it, he still is the best centre in the world, no matter what some of you out there think.
So, inviting England to play at Croke Park is one thing, allowing them to win is another.
Before the Six Nations Championship started, I marked them out as the team that could spoil the party of all parties.
But while France have already done that dastardly deed, and sunk Ireland under their weight of expectation, I still believe England can further thwart Ireland鈥檚 hopes of a second successive Triple Crown. Why?
Well, for a start I have every respect for Brian Ashton as a coach, as do his players, and after a couple of rusty performances, his team will be very much clued in as to how to handle the Irish, no matter what the occasion throws up.
Then there is Jonny Wilkinson. Yes, I know, I know, we may be tired reading about England鈥檚 World Cup winner, but let鈥檚 be honest, he is a class player, and someone who can dictate a game 鈥 if allowed.
Ashton would have already worked out who was in and who was out of the Ireland team long before it became public knowledge. With O鈥橠riscoll back in, Shane Horgan is shovelled along to the right wing and poor Geordan Murphy ostracised. I assume it is a form thing.
However, the doubt over Peter Stringer is a concern and will discolour Eddie O鈥橲ullivan鈥檚 gameplan if the wee man from Munster fails to make it.
I watched Isaac Boss playing for Ulster last Friday, and while he may not have Stringer鈥檚 lightning pass, he does possess other attributes which could cause England a few headaches.
Wales 27-18 England
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Unfortunately the Six Nations has been devalued by the world cup and the meeting of England and Ireland, however historically pertinent, is overshadowed by the fact that neither of these teams has shown anything to suggest that they might be capable of seriously worrying New Zealand during the autumn.
For me, France are the only side in the tournament with a hope in hell of giving New Zealand a good game this time next year. They have a number of quality players lining up in almost ever position whereas Ireland only offer Trimble and Murphy (who are often slotted into the starting XV out of position) as genuine backup to their world class starting XV. Rugby is a sport played by 22 players nowadays and Ireland don't have the front row to compete with the best. The tactics they resorted to in order to retain and acquire possession of the ball against Wales and the lack of self-confidence the Irish side inherently has was highlighted by Clerc's stroll through the O'Driscolless Irish midfield.
England look reasonable compared with their disasterous form over the last few years but I'm not sure there's enough cohesion between the brains and the brawn of the side for them to be capable of playing adaptive rugby in the context of what occurs on the pitch itself rather than simply applying what can be reproduced on a training field.
France to win the title. Ireland v England at Croke Park is going to be a boxing match and I wish it could be played as a rugby match without the weight of history, a history for which none of the fifteen men running out for England are remotely responsible. It's childish and immature to mix politics and rugby and whilst I do believe that the British government should be held responsible for their actions on Bloody Sunday and I believe it's tragic that Hogan was shot by British troops and befitting that a tribune be named after him, I fail to see what this has to do with a game of rugby that is being played on a fantastic pitch, in a fantastic stadium as a favour to the Irish Rugby Union because their previous stadium is currently being demolished.
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Wish everyone would leave the politics out of this game, we're in the 21st century & it's time to move on. Don't forget that "God save the Queen" is the national anthem of many of us Ireland rugby fans in Northern Ireland !
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I for one am disaapointed with the team selection. EOS is playing it a little bit to safe for my liking these days. Harry ellis will eat Stringer alive. Boss is far more physical then Stringer and offers more around the fringes.
Easterby is a smotherer but i dont think he will have it so easy against the english and i fancied Best to rough it up a bit aswell as protect ireland where Ellis may be sniping. A few big hits from bestr would stop him from sniping. Wilkinson will kick the irish out of game if they infringe all the time.
As for Gerv the swerv well that is something that puzzles me. Geordan always raises his game against the english and knows the stlye of game wilkinson plays all to well.
Great to have BOD and Horgan back but i think the lack of belief in Boss is a continuing stutter in EOS's selection process. He will have learnt from his mistakes against the french and his defence was awesome. I think this six nations may destroy EOS's reputation.
la porte experiments and it won for them. I Ireland have become a force in world rugby recently but this champoinship has seen them go slightly backwards. Worrying when the world cup is just around the corner.
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I agree England have a chance of making it two defeats from two at Croke for Ireland. But it is only ONE chance - namely if the Irish lose their discipline at the breakdown, and concede too many penalties in kicking range (which of course for Wilkinson is anywhere from the car park inwards). I feel the Irish team will have got the whole Croke Park thing out of their system against France, and given a fortnight to get over the disappointment of Clerc's late heartbreaker, we'll see just how professional an outfit O'Sullivan has created. I know the visit of England has much greater historical significance, but there's no way the fifteen guys on the pitch will be thinking about that. As for England, the new look backline hasn't played together long enough to really gel. With the utmost respect to the Scottish and Italian backs, Mssrs O'Driscoll and D'Arcy won't allow them the same time to think/breathe. Ronan O'Gara also showed against France how important he is to the way Ireland play behind the scrum, and overall I feel, given rough parity up front, the Irish have by far the better finishers out wide. For them, it's all about limiting the mistakes and infractions...
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I agree England have a chance of making it two defeats from two at Croke for Ireland. But it is only ONE chance - namely if the Irish lose their discipline at the breakdown, and concede too many penalties in kicking range (which of course for Wilkinson is anywhere from the car park inwards). I feel the Irish team will have got the whole Croke Park thing out of their system against France, and given a fortnight to get over the disappointment of Clerc's late heartbreaker, we'll see just how professional an outfit O'Sullivan has created. I know the visit of England has much greater historical significance, but there's no way the fifteen guys on the pitch will be thinking about that. As for England, the new look backline hasn't played together long enough to really gel. With the utmost respect to the Scottish and Italian backs, Mssrs O'Driscoll and D'Arcy won't allow them the same time to think/breathe. Ronan O'Gara also showed against France how important he is to the way Ireland play behind the scrum, and overall I feel, given rough parity up front, the Irish have by far the better finishers out wide. For them, it's all about limiting the mistakes and infractions...
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just quick note i totally agree about murphy trimble is just no where near his class and although murphy was a doggey he is world class. But my main point is Stringer vrs Boss no way did BOSS PLAY WELL AGAINST FRANCE his snipping runs caused how many turn overs and passing poor o'gara no wonder he found it hard to find touch.
so basically all im saying is this hype about Boss annoys me and what really gets to me is why Stringer gets such a hard time he mightn be world class but he IS the best scrum half in Ireland!
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Why on earth should the Irish crowd give England a standing ovation on Saturday.
They should be applauded and their anthem should be respected just as if ANY OTHER SOVEREIGN nation were coming.
If anything England should applaud the crowd for the right and honour to play at Croke Park.
You can say England might win - I like the "scoring one more than you" analysis - but it is not as if it is Brazil coming to play football or New Zealand to play Rugby.
I just don't understand?
Also people keep harping on about John Pullin - give it a rest. Honourable and brave yes but the England team were under massive political pressure to go in the backdrop of the Sunningdale Agreement.
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If england are smart they will play winning rugby not attractive rugby.
they were criticised for not playing attractive rugby but if i am not too mistaken they did beat italy. ireland are a team who can attack you on all fronts (apart from the scrum) and for england to absorb all of irelands talents and the undeniable croke park factor they must play ugly rugby.
nobody in england wants to see another boring display of 3point kicking but it wins games and if ireland give away as many silly penalties as they did against france they may suffer dearly as jonny is a far more reliable kicker than skrela is for france.
england do have the guns to beat ireland at croke but dont be too surprised if we see another muscular display as anything else will play right into irelands hands
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I agree England have a chance of making it two defeats from two at Croke for Ireland. But it is only ONE chance - namely if the Irish lose their discipline at the breakdown, and concede too many penalties in kicking range (which of course for Wilkinson is anywhere from the car park inwards). I feel the Irish team will have got the whole Croke Park thing out of their system against France, and given a fortnight to get over the disappointment of Clerc's late heartbreaker, we'll see just how professional an outfit O'Sullivan has created. I know the visit of England has much greater historical significance, but there's no way the fifteen guys on the pitch will be thinking about that. As for England, the new look backline hasn't played together long enough to really gel. With the utmost respect to the Scottish and Italian backs, Mssrs O'Driscoll and D'Arcy won't allow them the same time to think/breathe. Ronan O'Gara also showed against France how important he is to the way Ireland play behind the scrum, and overall I feel, given rough parity up front, the Irish have by far the better finishers out wide. For them, it's all about limiting the mistakes and infractions...
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Why on earth should the Irish crowd give England a standing ovation on Saturday.
They should be applauded and their anthem should be respected just as if ANY OTHER SOVEREIGN nation were coming.
If anything England should applaud the crowd for the right and honour to play at Croke Park.
You can say England might win - I like the "scoring one more than you" analysis - but it is not as if it is Brazil coming to play football or New Zealand to play Rugby.
I just don't understand?
Also people keep harping on about John Pullin - give it a rest. Honourable and brave yes but the England team were under massive political pressure to go in the backdrop of the Sunningdale Agreement.
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Big surprise leaving Neil Best out of the team.
Eddie O'Sullivan likes Easterby as a line-out option but Best's mean streak is what we need on saturday.
We cannot afford to start slowly and we need to hit early, hard and often.
We also need Stringer. Limited though his game may be his speed of pass give our backs that extra bit of room they need.
Why do we need a breaking scrum-half when we have the best centres and wingers in the 6 nations?
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I for one am disaapointed with the team selection. EOS is playing it a little bit to safe for my liking these days. Harry ellis will eat Stringer alive. Boss is far more physical then Stringer and offers more around the fringes.
Easterby is a smotherer but i dont think he will have it so easy against the english and i fancied Best to rough it up a bit aswell as protect ireland where Ellis may be sniping. A few big hits from bestr would stop him from sniping. Wilkinson will kick the irish out of game if they infringe all the time.
As for Gerv the swerv well that is something that puzzles me. Geordan always raises his game against the english and knows the stlye of game wilkinson plays all to well.
Great to have BOD and Horgan back but i think the lack of belief in Boss is a continuing stutter in EOS's selection process. He will have learnt from his mistakes against the french and his defence was awesome. I think this six nations may destroy EOS's reputation.
la porte experiments and it won for them. I Ireland have become a force in world rugby recently but this champoinship has seen them go slightly backwards. Worrying when the world cup is just around the corner.
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Peter Stringer - 'lightning pass'?????????? What planet are you on? Did you watch him against Wales? Stringer is one dimensional, slow and erratic. Brave - yes, committed -yes. Past it at international level -yes.
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I for one am disaapointed with the team selection. EOS is playing it a little bit to safe for my liking these days. Harry ellis will eat Stringer alive. Boss is far more physical then Stringer and offers more around the fringes.
Easterby is a smotherer but i dont think he will have it so easy against the english and i fancied Best to rough it up a bit aswell as protect ireland where Ellis may be sniping. A few big hits from bestr would stop him from sniping. Wilkinson will kick the irish out of game if they infringe all the time.
As for Gerv the swerv well that is something that puzzles me. Geordan always raises his game against the english and knows the stlye of game wilkinson plays all to well.
Great to have BOD and Horgan back but i think the lack of belief in Boss is a continuing stutter in EOS's selection process. He will have learnt from his mistakes against the french and his defence was awesome. I think this six nations may destroy EOS's reputation.
la porte experiments and it won for them. I Ireland have become a force in world rugby recently but this champoinship has seen them go slightly backwards. Worrying when the world cup is just around the corner.
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Why on earth should the Irish crowd give England a standing ovation on Saturday.
They should be applauded and their anthem should be respected just as if ANY OTHER SOVEREIGN nation were coming.
If anything England should applaud the crowd for the right and honour to play at Croke Park.
You can say England might win - I like the "scoring one more than you" analysis - but it is not as if it is Brazil coming to play football or New Zealand to play Rugby.
I just don't understand?
Also people keep harping on about John Pullin - give it a rest. Honourable and brave yes but the England team were under massive political pressure to go in the backdrop of the Sunningdale Agreement.
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Reading your article made me reconsider your knowledge of rugby, while i do believe England have made vast improvements mostly due to the return of mr wilkinson they will be no match for the Irish. Im not getting carried away but the Irish are far better all over the park, from organisation to skill. FRance were a far different pedigree then the English, leaps and bounds ahead. It will be more Like the English will have to play more with their hearts, as Ireland are now over that stage and it has to accepted that they are a formidabble force in world rugby now. They are also playing at home.
I hope to God someone dosnt gone on about the Leicster pack putting Munster to the Sword as that was played in the lashing rain on a bad Munster Performance.
Unless the Irish fall apart I cant see any other result then a home win, even Wilkinson will probably kick another 15 points but still be on the losing side.
Im looking forward to a good game, but it's a huge test for the English and i totally disagree with you MRs Stokes.
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Reading your article made me reconsider your knowledge of rugby, while i do believe England have made vast improvements mostly due to the return of mr wilkinson they will be no match for the Irish. Im not getting carried away but the Irish are far better all over the park, from organisation to skill. FRance were a far different pedigree then the English, leaps and bounds ahead. It will be more Like the English will have to play more with their hearts, as Ireland are now over that stage and it has to accepted that they are a formidabble force in world rugby now. They are also playing at home.
I hope to God someone dosnt gone on about the Leicster pack putting Munster to the Sword as that was played in the lashing rain on a bad Munster Performance.
Unless the Irish fall apart I cant see any other result then a home win, even Wilkinson will probably kick another 15 points but still be on the losing side.
Im looking forward to a good game, but it's a huge test for the English and i totally disagree with you MRs Stokes.
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Good article. Think "God Save the Queen" will be interesting. I am going the match (and no I am not selling my tickets) and there has been talk here of people sitting down during GSTQ. I certainly will not be doing that. Nor will be giving the England team a standing ovation when they run onto the park!! The reason this was done in 1973 was because they defied the terrorist threats and travelled to Dublin-something which Wales and Scotland failed to do. There is no reason for them not to come...but that doesnt mean we shouldn't give them a warm reception..
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Boo it to the rafters, drown it out completely!
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It is impossible to leave the politcis out of this game. Absoutly imossible. The events of bloody Sunday are still in living memory not in some old dusty texts.
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The English deserve no more or no less applause than any other visiting team. I assume they will never disgrace themselves again like they did when Martin Johnson forced our Head of State to walk in the mud. As regards too the worry that there is too much talk of history, thats just ignorant. This is a monumental moment and should be duly acknowledged-the English enter Croke park as sporting guests rather than ruthless colonists.
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Why oh why would the Irish fans give the English team a standing ovation on Sat?? Get real, I thought you're last offering of how croker was unsuitable for rugby was bad enough but this is even worse.
The English team rightly deserved an ovation in '73 but I see no reason for it now.
As for the game I think Ireland will prove too strong in a number of areas, particularly with O'Driscoll back and Horgan on the wing. Murphy did nothing special against France to deserve to hold his place. If Ireland dont concede to many penalties they should see this through.
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With all due respect politics cannot be left out of a game of this magnitude considering what happened last time the english played at Croker. Furthermore, God save the Queen is the Britiah naional anthem you are supporting an irish team!
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It is impossible to leave the politcis out of this game. Absoutly imossible. The events of bloody Sunday are still in living memory not in some old dusty texts.
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Why oh why would the Irish fans give the English team a standing ovation on Sat?? Get real, I thought you're last offering of how croker was unsuitable for rugby was bad enough but this is even worse.
The English team rightly deserved an ovation in '73 but I see no reason for it now.
As for the game I think Ireland will prove too strong in a number of areas, particularly with O'Driscoll back and Horgan on the wing. Murphy did nothing special against France to deserve to hold his place. If Ireland dont concede to many penalties they should see this through.
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As an England fan, I agree totally with the comments regarding Brian Ashton but still feel that the squad are not totally 'gelled' yet. Whilst our forwards should at least match the Irish counterparts I do not see where our backs can break Ireland and in the same vein cannot see Ireland not crossing our line during 80 minutes.
Expecting a great reception, a hard-fought game but Irish celebrations. A close run thing will be good news for England in my eyes.
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What's all this stuff about 'Stringer's lightning pass'. Never been apparent to me. Accurate - okay, quick - no; there's quite a few quicker.
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Boo it to the rafters, drown it out completely!
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Disappointed that Neil Best is not in the team.
What we need is to hit hard, early and often. I'd love to see Best and O'Connell lining up a few white shirts early on.
O'Sullivan likes Easterby as a line out option but I think we need Best's mean streak more on saturday.
As for Stringer/Boss - why do we need a breaking scrum-half when we have the best outside backs in the 6 nations?
We need Stringer's speed of pass to give the backs that extra split-second. D'Arcy & O'Driscoll have the potential to run riot against Tindall & Farrell if they get the room.
Forget about the anthems - lets get on with the game!
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WHEN ON EARTH HAS STRINGER EVER HAD A LIGHTNING PASS??
It has to be one of the poorest pases ever seen in international rugby. Just watch how many of these "lightning passes" end up hitting the turf on Saturday.
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Stringer is the best scrum half in Ireland but he is equally on of the worst tacklers on the islands.
And although i hope god save the queen is respected on saturday, It is an offensive anthem to many GAA supporters in the 6 counties.
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"Stringer's lightning pass??!!" Where's that been all his career then? He has many attributes which make him an asset to the Ireland team but i don't think this is one of them... in fact i thought the service looked a lot sharper with Boss there, and I'd start him against england.
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Re 2. John i really dont understand you negative attitude to trimble. He is probably the most exciting talent to emerge from ireland in the last few years. Willie John Mcbride (in 2004 named "Henineken rugby personality of the century") said trimble is the player of his generation-so please dont talk about class.
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On the selection front.... I like Trimble, he's a very exciting player but given Dempsey can play two positions, surely he's the ideal sub?? I'm not too bothered about Boss vs Stringer. Stringer's distribution to O'Gara is fast and of a good standard but Boss, might be the man to help our forwards build a platform up front.
Hopefully the politics will be left out of it... In reply to what Stephen said, I'm just not happy about that comment. We're united under green and the 26 counties have accomodated our 6 in the north with an all island anthem which is a big deal for both sides... build your own indentity within the UK if need be just like Wales and Scotland. Having said that, if I'm brutally honest, I'd rather see England win unless there the crowd fails to respect the English national anthem.
What a corker it will be either way. Let's hope rugby wins.
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In reality the anthems issues is just being hyped up by the media on a slow news week. The nuts in RSF must be over the moon with the coverage they are getting. Their protest will number around 20 on the day.
It will be weird to hear God Save the Queen in Croke Park and I expect a few people to shuffle uncomfortably while it is being played. But as soon as it is over it will be forgotten about as we cheer on the Irish team. Given that the main Stand is named after one of the 14 murdered by British forces back in 1920 and that Hill 16 was built from the rubble of the rising, I don't think anyone is not going to be aware of the significance of the occasion.
Personally I look forward to hearing the British anthem being played as the away anthem in Croke Park. Last time 'they' were around it was the home anthem. Saturday will re-enforce the Republic's independance. It will be a good day to be a republican. Its there anthem not ours.
Having said that a good point was made above by an Ulsterman. It is an All Ireland team and that includes part of the UK. But on Saturday we will have 3 anthems sung and I don't really care which one people want to sing... just sing it with pride and let everyone else do the same.
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Why do england deserve a standing ovation? for playing a rugby match in a different stadium, its not like they are coming over under any sort of threat, if england deserve one so did france, dont really see the need for that. anyway back to rugby, i dont think england are consistent enough to beat ireland, even missing two important players against france ireland *almost* held out for a fantastic win, i can see o'driscoll, n d'acy ripping wilkinson and farrell to shreads
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When England come to Croke Park, politics cannot be forgotten about. It is disrespectful to Irish culture, Irish people and the GAA to ask people to simply forget about the meaning of the day. The english coming over to Croke Park is acceptable in this day of age as everything thankfully has moved on. But what is not acceptable is Irish people who are born on this island going to Croke park on saturday and proclaiming god save the queen to be their national anthem. It is that more than anything that would have Michael Hogan and countless other Irish men killed by the black and tans turn in their grave.
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Well said, poster no. 1. As an Englishman. I think it is fair to say that none of the English Rugby Team or supporters were at Croke Park in 1920!
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WHEN ON EARTH HAS STRINGER EVER HAD A LIGHTNING PASS??
It has to be one of the poorest pases ever seen in international rugby. Just watch how many of these "lightning passes" end up hitting the turf on Saturday.
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Fair play stephen. Even as someone from the south, I'm getting a bit bored of it. Should be a cracking game, Ireland to win by the odd point if Stringer makes it.
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The reason Boss's snipes ended up in turnovers is because the back row is so used to playing with a scrum half who offers NOTHING around the fringes! Unless Ireland have a 9 who posseses more than just ONE dimension, they will NEVER beat New Zealand. Those little rosy-cheeked chums Stringer and O'Gara will not take Ireland to the next level - they have lived charmed lives playing behind a great pack and inside great backs.
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Certainly, against England anything could happen. The game against France should have been won and was lost between the ears in the fading minutes - some very poor tactical decisions were made. For their part, England have played poorly so far and were flattered by two weaker sides. Scotland ran in 2 tries against them and Italy scored the only legitimate try of that match. So aside from Wilkinson's prowess with the boot, I don't fancy England's attacking capabilities - or defensive ones for that matter. Ireland by 10 points.
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Stringer is the best scrum half in Ireland but he is equally on of the worst tacklers on the island.
And although i hope god save the queen is respected on saturday, It is an offensive anthem to many GAA supporters in the 6 counties.
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It will be a cracker - that's for sure. I don't like polictics in sport, but sometimes it is hard to avoid - the history behind Croke Park is important and should not be forgotten, but it is not relevant to this weekend. A standing ovation for the English might be the best thing the crowd can do - if they are hostile it will galvanise the English and possibly heap more pressure on the Irish team as it would hammer home that defeat is unthinkable...can Ireland handle the pressure? looking forward to finding out.
Regarding Boss, I agree with John in Post 2 - he was one of the reasons Ireland lost to France - he snapped and sniped but to little effect and often at the wrong time. Stringer is not world class, but his pass is and the way he plays suits the team and the class outside him very well - he will be a loss if not fit....
Roll on the weekend....
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When England come to Croke Park, politics cannot be forgotten about. It is disrespectful to Irish culture, Irish people and the GAA to ask people to simply forget about the meaning of the day. The english coming over to Croke Park is acceptable in this day of age as everything thankfully has moved on. But what is not acceptable is Irish people who are born on this island going to Croke park on saturday and proclaiming god save the queen to be their national anthem. It is that more than anything that would have Michael Hogan and countless other Irish men killed by the black and tans turn in their grave.
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It will be a cracker - that's for sure. I don't like polictics in sport, but sometimes it is hard to avoid - the history behind Croke Park is important and should not be forgotten, but it is not relevant to this weekend. A standing ovation for the English might be the best thing the crowd can do - if they are hostile it will galvanise the English and possibly heap more pressure on the Irish team as it would hammer home that defeat is unthinkable...can Ireland handle the pressure? looking forward to finding out.
Regarding Boss, I agree with John in Post 2 - he was one of the reasons Ireland lost to France - he snapped and sniped but to little effect and often at the wrong time. Stringer is not world class, but his pass is and the way he plays suits the team and the class outside him very well - he will be a loss if not fit....
Roll on the weekend....
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Maybe Owen Reddan of Wasps should be given a game because he plays every week for wasps. I dislike Stringers play, but he compliments O'Gara. I think against England, Ireland need quick ball so the choice of scrum half is important and the battle with Harry Ellis is also vital.
As for the national anthems, there for pride and it is to make you feel proud of your country, even if it isn't a great!!
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On the selection front.... I like Trimble, he's a very exciting player but given Dempsey can play two positions, surely he's the ideal sub?? I'm not too bothered about Boss vs Stringer. Stringer's distribution to O'Gara is fast and of a good standard but Boss, might be the man to help our forwards build a platform up front.
Hopefully the politics will be left out of it... In reply to what Stephen said, I'm just not happy about that comment. We're united under green and the 26 counties have accomodated our 6 in the north with an all island anthem which is a big deal for both sides... build your own indentity within the UK if need be just like Wales and Scotland. Having said that, if I'm brutally honest, I'd rather see England win unless there the crowd fails to respect the English national anthem.
What a corker it will be either way. Let's hope rugby wins.
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I'd agree there's a chance that England could inflict a second loss in two games at Croke upon the Irish - but only ONE chance. If the Irish lose their discipline at the breakdown, and are sufficiently punished for it by the officials, then you-know-who will inflict death by a thousand cuts with the boot.
For Ireland there are just too many positives. Despite all that will be written this week about the tragic history of Croke Park, I feel the Irish PLAYERS will have got the whole thing out of their system against France. They begam against both Wales and the French as if a different kind of history was weighing them down - namely the pressure to secure the Grand Slam. Given two weeks to get over the crushing disappointment of THAT try by Vincent Clerc, I expect Eddie O'Sullivan to prove just what a professional outfit he has moulded. Thy have (along with the French) the best finishers in the championship, and given rough parity up front, they should be the difference.
From England's point of view, the new look back line haven't had enough game time together to gel properly. And with the utmost respect to both the Scottish and Italian backs, Mssrs Farrell annd Tindall won't get nearly as much space and time when the two Irish centres get in their faces. Going the other way, I just don't see them being able to contain O'Driscoll and D'Arcy.
Overall, if Ireland limit mistakes and infractions, I can't see England creating enough to trouble them. And the Croke Park crowd can only help them now the GS is off the agenda.
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ah come on now, its one thing expecting god save the queen to be played at croke park - which while a lot of people would be not over the moon about, they would be willing to overlook - but its another to thint to expect Irish people, especially the owners of croke park - the GAA - to be over the moon about it and see it as a progression of society. No point in taking the moral high ground here, if you'd rather it werent played, and i would prefer it they didnt, you're quite entitled to that opinion, and are completely justified to have it.
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You are quite right, neither Ireland or England have looked like champions yet.
Don't be deceived by the Australian result though. The Aussies have got well documented issues in the forwards and all I saw was an illustration of what can happen if the mobile Irish pack are unopposed.
The French game illustrated the opposite.
Leinster's, and I believe Ireland's, fragility has always been the lack of quality ball in forward oriented contests. O'Driscoll is only an attacking threat if he gets the ball.
Last year aside,(England will never be that poor again), Ireland have started as underdogs and based their game on dogged defence scoring from scraps. It has worked more than its failed in recent times.
The pressure is now on them as favourites to make some of these plays and exert some control on the game. This may fall totally into England's hands.
We didn't see the real England against Italy but, ominously, they never once looked like losing.
If England are offered the space of a frenetic game, Messrs Farrell and Wilkinson might end up bossing it, or their lack of match fitness might be their undoing.
If they are offered a fight in the forwards England probably will end up winning.
I am looking forward to this one because neither team looks the finished article. That may change Saturday evening.
Ireland should win, England could.
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How has he not picked Neil Best again?He was far and away the best player during the Autumn and adss so much more than Easterby who is so often invisible. Is a big mistake against a very strong English pack and Best would have been an unwelcome name on the Irish teamsheet for the English boys. They will be delighted.
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Everyone I know is looking forward to a great match and we hold massive respect for the current Irish team. However, this is just a game and played by young men and watched by people who had nothing what's so ever to do with causing Bloody Sunday. They are generations apart and are probably disgusted by it as much anyone. Terrible as that day was, and it should be remembered in appropriate ways as any nation mourns, can't Ireland move on?
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The english revival is all hype if you ask me. I have seen nothing from them so far this term that would suggest a comeback. Scotland capitulated, making them look good. Italy didn't however and exposed many of the weeknesses that have been prevealent in the english setup for the past two years.
Add to that the Croker factor, the BOD factor and the return of the Telescopic Arm of Shaggy Horgan and I CANNOT see England covering the handicap. Ireland by 10!!!
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Please explain why the England team should be given a standing ovation? They should be applauding the irish for the honour of playing rugby at one of the greatest stadiums in Europe.
I hope GSTQ is respected and whilst history does play a part here and is very very real - England should be treated as just another foreign country coming to play in ireland.
Re northern supporters and GSTQ. I have to say this is a very good reason why England should use another anthem. However, I think if you are supporting Ireland then you support Ireland to the absolute detriment of the opposing team. Whatever you may think about rugby in ireland the all-ireland rugby team is an example of Irish nationalism in the vein of the United Irishmen. GSTQ is anathema to the overwhelming majority of people who support Ireland and the northern folk should respect that by not singing along AND nationlists should respect northern folk by not booing GSTQ. Amhran na bhfiann is not played at Northern Ireland soccer matches - yet that team is supposed to represent a nation with over 40% nationalists -
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Please explain why the England team should be given a standing ovation? They should be applauding the irish for the honour of playing rugby at one of the greatest stadiums in Europe.
I hope GSTQ is respected and whilst history does play a part here and is very very real - England should be treated as just another foreign country coming to play in ireland.
Re northern supporters and GSTQ. I have to say this is a very good reason why England should use another anthem. However, I think if you are supporting Ireland then you support Ireland to the absolute detriment of the opposing team. Whatever you may think about rugby in ireland the all-ireland rugby team is an example of Irish nationalism in the vein of the United Irishmen. GSTQ is anathema to the overwhelming majority of people who support Ireland and the northern folk should respect that by not singing along AND nationlists should respect northern folk by not booing GSTQ. Amhran na bhfiann is not played at Northern Ireland soccer matches - yet that team is supposed to represent a nation with over 40% nationalists -
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They are both dour anthems in comparison with the other countries in the six nations but they both deserve respect. We should remember that this is a Rugby team coming to play a match, nothing else. It will reflect very poorly on us as a nation if we cannot respect a national anthem being played regardless of the history involved. Getting Conor O'Shea to give them a history lesson shows that this set of players & management want to acknowledge and understand the significance of the event which is admirable in itself. And for the die hards, remember that the union jack was flying over croker a few years ago when the special olympics opening ceromany took place there. There were no objections then as it, like this was just a sporting event. Lets give our guests a very warm welcome to Croker and concentrate on winning the match.
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As an Ulster unionist, I've always felt somewhat excluded by the 'Soldiers Song' but that never lessened my support or enthusiam for the Irish team, even when there were no Ulstermen aboard. Any time I was not at the match or watching on TV the sound of it on the car radio provoked the hairs on the back of my neck to rise in pride and anticipation of a rollicking good match.
I hope that will be the case on saturday against what will be a very strong and aggressive England.
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Why should Ireland give England a standing ovation and a great reception? We'll give them the same as we give every other visiting team, which is a respectful silence during their national anthem and then we'll give our own team the great reception. We shouldn't have to make any grand gestures for them, shame on you for thinking we should.
It's another shame EOS hasn't picked Best, yet again, what does he have to do to get the chance he deserves?
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The sad reality is you can't take politics out of sport these days. The best thing to happen would be for the England team to lay a wreath at the foot of Hill 16 as an act of contrition for our forefathers mistakes, and move forward in the universal friendship that is rugby. We must never forget the mistakes of the past, but it is now time to move forward.
With regard to the match itself, I take England to win by a small margin. The "Munster" pack still seem shell-shocked from the mauling they received at the hands of Leicester, and if England can dominate to the same magnitude then Wilkinson's boot should do the rest. Not a pretty game though - England haven't got much flair in the backs.
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Stringer's pass is widely acknowledged to be the most laboured in the 6N. So far as the games goes, I back Ireland, completely. The English pack - part of the second half v Scotland aside - is looking suspiciously similar to last year's England pack. Slow ball from rucks, immobile and ineffective back row, over hyped front row . . . presuming John Hayes can manage to push in the scrum, I don't see any reason why the Irish pack won't come out on top.
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On these pages two weeks ago I predicted a 19-17 victory for France. It was 20-17. I am predicting a 29-15 victory for Ireland on sat. There is no way we are going to lose this one. O'Driscoll and D'arcy will run riot..
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Firsty, and from an Irish supporters point of view and one who is lucky enough to have I ticket I will be there to support my country and will sing both Irish anthems with pride and gusto, I will also respect the English national anthem. I just want the politics to be put to the side and for the game to commence. I hope that is the only respect we show them that day (on the field) and give them a lesson in rugby. I don't want the soccer mentality creeping into Rugby, that will be a sad day. I look forward to sharing some pints with our English friends, consoling them and rubbing some salt into the wounds ;-)
Secondly, I had a feeling that EOS would not change too much. Surprised at the total exclusion of Murphy but maybe justified. He has not performed consistently for Ireland on the big stage since he broke his leg. Their is no doubting his class but he just hasn't turned up of late aside from that cameo against Wales. I think we will see Best and Flannery earlier than we did against France and hopefully to close out the game. I think we need to start and play like we did against SA and Australia last Autumn and really get in the face of the English.
Thirdly, Stringer has a great pass and has been a consistent performer for Ireland, always gives 110%. His pass is excellent and this has been agreed (and talked about) by many top players (91热爆 pundits et al), so unless they are completely clueless/blind, where has this come from? He may not offer the snipping runs (Biarritz may beg to differ) but his understanding with O'Gara is key. Re. Post 11, worst tacklers?? Did you see the Heineken Cup final last year?? I think Boss will have his day but a fit Stringer is a better option at present.
Ireland, Ireland
Together standing TALL!!
Shoulder to Shoulder
We'll answer Irelands call!!!
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I was one of those who roared themselves hoarse before the game started in '73.
I had thought of appealing to the authorities to reserve tickets for those who were there on that momentous day,but no doubt 2 million would put there hands up.
Bearing in mind the courage of that English team in '73, when I believe they saved Irish Rugby, I sincerely hope that the occasion will not be spoiled by people who will go there with no other intention than to cause diseuption.
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All I'd like to see is both teams play to their potential for 80 minutes. If they both did that then I wouldn't care about the outcome. Still, it was only 4 points and a dodgy try that let Ireland scrape past us last year.
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All I'd like to see is both teams play to their potential for 80 minutes. If they both did that then I wouldn't care about the outcome. Still, it was only 4 points and a dodgy try that let Ireland scrape past us last year.
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I'm looking forward to the game. The past encounters have been pretty good games and this weekend should not be any different. I expect a very close game with Wilkinson making the difference in favor of England... barely.
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I think the team would benefit greatly from Neil Bets's inclusion, he's just what we could do with against England.
In response to Graeme, and the media to some extent, the Irish rugby team is made up of players, some of whom regard themselves as British and Irish. I don't particularly like God Save the Queen, but I'm getting pretty fed up with the exclusion of anything British in connection with Irish rugby. A long line of British Irishmen have served the team well over the years, and all rugby fans in Ireland should remember this.
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Who is this Stokes guy? Is he English, or is he just an Irishman who has sold out to his paymasters at the 91热爆?
His constant knocking of the team and attempts to undermine all the many facets of the game in Ireland leave me wondering exactly what his agenda is.
Given the very poor coverage on the site for Irish rugby, unless it is Ulster, I can only assume his ramblings are part of policy.
Why on earth should England be given an ovation on Saturday? I was at the 1971 game and took part in the ovation England got with some feeling. It was richly deserved., but why now?
Based on any known form, how can he possibly give England a chance, unless Ireland turn up at Lansdowne Road by mistake.
The rubbish that is talked about Wilkinson is crazy. He has played against two of the weakest sides in the competition and if you take away his penalties against Italy, his performance wouldn't have got him into the average club side. For some mysterious reason, the Scots decided to play without back row forwards which gave him acres of room. And this weekend his club coach says he is injured!
On Saturday, he will be facing a formidable back row and possibly the best midfield defence in world rugby. I'll be very surprised if he manages to finish the game!
So please Mr Stokes, take your poisoned rubbish somewhere else!
Froggie.
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Shnig, which Bloody Sunday are you refering to? The one in the 20's when the IRA shot British soldiers/agents in cold blood or the more recent one when Para's shot nationalist civilians in Belfast? Remember that all sides have cause to mourn the recent and less recent 'troubles'.
The great thing about the Croke Park match, is that all that bloody history, important and painful as it is has been, is history and Ireland and England can compete and show respect and friendship within a shared and loved game. Let there never be a need or excuse for any more Irish/British violence....except in the tackle on the field of play!
I hope for a great day, and I am so sorry not to be there (as an Englishman married to an Irish woman) - let the best team win (as long as it doesn't give the title to the French)
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Shnig, which Bloody Sunday are you refering to? The one in the 20's when the IRA shot British soldiers/agents in cold blood or the more recent one when Para's shot nationalist civilians in Belfast? Remember that all sides have cause to mourn the recent and less recent 'troubles'.
The great thing about the Croke Park match, is that all that bloody history, important and painful as it is has been, is history and Ireland and England can compete and show respect and friendship within a shared and loved game. Let there never be a need or excuse for any more Irish/British violence....except in the tackle on the field of play!
I hope for a great day, and I am so sorry not to be there (as an Englishman married to an Irish woman) - let the best team win (as long as it doesn't give the title to the French)
PS Great post Mr. Madden
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Who is this Stokes guy? Is he English, or is he just an Irishman who has sold out to his paymasters at the 91热爆?
His constant knocking of the team and attempts to undermine all the many facets of the game in Ireland leave me wondering exactly what his agenda is.
Given the very poor coverage on the site for Irish rugby, unless it is Ulster, I can only assume his ramblings are part of policy.
Why on earth should England be given an ovation on Saturday? I was at the 1971 game and took part in the ovation England got with some feeling. It was richly deserved., but why now?
Based on any known form, how can he possibly give England a chance, unless Ireland turn up at Lansdowne Road by mistake.
The rubbish that is talked about Wilkinson is crazy. He has played against two of the weakest sides in the competition and if you take away his penalties against Italy, his performance wouldn't have got him into the average club side. For some mysterious reason, the Scots decided to play without back row forwards which gave him acres of room. And this weekend his club coach says he is injured!
On Saturday, he will be facing a formidable back row and possibly the best midfield defence in world rugby. I'll be very surprised if he manages to finish the game!
So please Mr Stokes, take your poisoned rubbish somewhere else!
Froggie.
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I'm not sure what last years score was (28-24maybe?) but I do remeber a good Ireland team was lucky to come away with a win aganst a "poor" England team. A bad discussion lead to one Irish try and a last gasp final minute try lead Ireland to victory. They connot rely on that this year. There pack must at least win 50-50 ball to make sure wilko doesn't have his way even then with Farrell able to fill the 10 role it may be hard to put pressure on the golden boy. Ireland need to score tries and agant a midfield with tindell and farrel that will be easier said than done.
England on the other hand need to play for terriotroy. Apart from Robinson they don't have attacking pace. What they do have is big ball carriers and lots of them. They need to pressure the irish pack to give away penalties and kick for the coners when the chance arises. Most of all they need to limit irish points. If Ireland can't score more than 15 point I think England will win.
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Who is this Stokes guy? Is he English, or is he just an Irishman who has sold out to his paymasters at the 91热爆?
His constant knocking of the team and attempts to undermine all the many facets of the game in Ireland leave me wondering exactly what his agenda is.
Given the very poor coverage on the site for Irish rugby, unless it is Ulster, I can only assume his ramblings are part of policy.
Why on earth should England be given an ovation on Saturday? I was at the 1971 game and took part in the ovation England got with some feeling. It was richly deserved., but why now?
Based on any known form, how can he possibly give England a chance, unless Ireland turn up at Lansdowne Road by mistake.
The rubbish that is talked about Wilkinson is crazy. He has played against two of the weakest sides in the competition and if you take away his penalties against Italy, his performance wouldn't have got him into the average club side. For some mysterious reason, the Scots decided to play without back row forwards which gave him acres of room. And this weekend his club coach says he is injured!
On Saturday, he will be facing a formidable back row and possibly the best midfield defence in world rugby. I'll be very surprised if he manages to finish the game!
So please Mr Stokes, take your poisoned rubbish somewhere else!
Froggie.
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Re. 13 mrneenaw
so are you trying to tell me that trimble is better than Murphy. Trimble is a good player but noway better or evens with murphy.
what coach ever picked a player for winning a personality award?
O'Gara = class
O'Connell = class
Darcy = class
O'Driscoll = class
Trimble = sub bench
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The English have an absolute nerve playing the British anthem anyway. If they weren't so arrogant they should follow the lead of the Welsh and Scots and get their own anthem. Please could someone explain the difference to them; the 6N committee should insist they use their own anthem and not a song shared with other countries.
Its not just the Irish who are offended by it; other Celts share their view.
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Who is this Stokes guy? Is he English, or is he just an Irishman who has sold out to his paymasters at the 91热爆?
His constant knocking of the team and attempts to undermine all the many facets of the game in Ireland leave me wondering exactly what his agenda is.
Given the very poor coverage on the site for Irish rugby, unless it is Ulster, I can only assume his ramblings are part of policy.
Why on earth should England be given an ovation on Saturday? I was at the 1971 game and took part in the ovation England got with some feeling. It was richly deserved., but why now?
Based on any known form, how can he possibly give England a chance, unless Ireland turn up at Lansdowne Road by mistake.
The rubbish that is talked about Wilkinson is crazy. He has played against two of the weakest sides in the competition and if you take away his penalties against Italy, his performance wouldn't have got him into the average club side. For some mysterious reason, the Scots decided to play without back row forwards which gave him acres of room. And this weekend his club coach says he is injured!
On Saturday, he will be facing a formidable back row and possibly the best midfield defence in world rugby. I'll be very surprised if he manages to finish the game!
So please Mr Stokes, take your poisoned rubbish somewhere else!
Froggie.
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As an England supporter who sadly cannot get to Croke Park to witness a unique event, I would like to think that perhaps the England team and supporters could wear a small bit of 'green' to acknowledge the historical significance of the venue.
After that, the bloody politics should end and we can all settle down to watch what I hope will be one of the best Rugby matches of this year's 6 Nations.
In the meantime, thank you, Ireland, for your generosity of spirit.
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Very good point by Stephen in regards to the complete over exposure been given to Republican Sinn Fein, over God Save the Queen (GSTQ) been played in Croke Park,
but hopefully people will treat them with the contempt that they deserve on Saturday. I personally am delighted to see England and their anthem been played in Croker, although I do wish that England would get their own anthem, as GSTQ is the British anthem, and not the English anthem, but thats for another day. Anyway heres to a great day on Saturday, with Ireland winning after a titanic struggle
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While the history of Croke park is important and significant and should be talked about, i cannot help but feel the RFU are making a mistake by giving the plyaers lessons in its history.
France won because they treated as a concrete bowl like any other stadium they play in week in week out. England must do the same, and forget about the political implications of the game, which has no relevance to their task of winning what promises to be a spectacular game of rugby.
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Murphy is a waste of space in an Ireland shirt. Just because he flourishes in an appalling Guinness Premiership does not mean he's a world beater. When are people going to realise this. I am absolutely delighted this liability has been dropped.
Trimble has done more in a season then Murphy has ever done in an Ireland shirt. Murphy only raises his game when he's playing an Ireland club side. Good riddance to him.
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While the history of Croke park is important and significant and should be talked about, i cannot help but feel the RFU are making a mistake by giving the plyaers lessons in its history.
France won because they treated as a concrete bowl like any other stadium they play in week in week out. England must do the same, and forget about the political implications of the game, which has no relevance to their task of winning what promises to be a spectacular game of rugby.
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It should be an exciting game.
Ireland could be on a determined rebound after recent disappointments. England may be finding enough confidence to grasp a result. As an England supporter I doubt the bookmakers will see it that way.
I hope for good match officials throughout - no more dodgy TMO decisions please.
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John,
where would all your "class" players be if the selectors had left them on the bench. Players improve through playing at a higher level...using your logic the Irish team will soon follow the path of England and be relying on the past glories from players who have lost a step or two to age and injury.
I am still not convinced that O'Gara is truly a class act...he can be wildly inconsistent.
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John,
where would all your "class" players be if the selectors had left them on the bench. Players improve through playing at a higher level...using your logic the Irish team will soon follow the path of England and be relying on the past glories from players who have lost a step or two to age and injury.
I am still not convinced that O'Gara is truly a class act...he can be wildly inconsistent.
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France won because they were a better team on the day not because they thought Croke Park was just another stadium.
I think the RFU are educating the English players in order to avoid any diplomatic incidents etc, like the Martin Johnson snub? Obnoxious.
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John,
read mrneenaw's post again...the award you so disparagingly refer to was given to Willie John McBride...if you have an issue take it up with him...I am sure he could still instill some of the discipline he dispensed during his time in the Ireland jersey.
Trimble is recognised for his pace and power. He is a centre and EOS keeps putting him on the wing...so he is being used as a utility back, which in the long run may deprive him off the opportunity to reach his potential.
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I feel that the English front five will destroy the irish front five. The irish front row is poor and the second row has not played to it ability. The irish backs are much sharper than the english but will get no ball to do damage. I feel robinson will be the overall winning edge for England in a very close game!!
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The emotions worked against Ireland when they played France and they need to focus on the game this weekend. The media could let it go a bit too and focus more on sport than history.
I thought Boss was a bit slow against France and he did get caught a couple of times but he played quite a physical game and had some dreadful ball off the line out.
Let's hope we see a good game of rugby with a good win for Ireland.
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If Ireland get caught up in the politics, anthems and hype then they will loose. No doubt about that. If they can focus on their game-plan, front up in the scrum and most importantly, retain concentration at critical times then the result should be a formality. Ireland by 7.
While I expect Farrell to be exposed against more formidable opposition, the crunch battle will be Robinson/Horgan. Billy Whizz has been on fire this six nations and will target lanky Shane at every chance. However, Horgan's height advantage and great form in HC/ML will test Robinson and high balls from ROG.
Finally, would hope Ireland hold onto the ball more and allow the home crowd get behind the team. Should be a cracker!
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If Ireland get caught up in the politics, anthems and hype then they will loose. No doubt about that. If they can focus on their game-plan, front up in the scrum and most importantly, retain concentration at critical times then the result should be a formality. Ireland by 7.
While I expect Farrell to be exposed against more formidable opposition, the crunch battle will be Robinson/Horgan. Billy Whizz has been on fire this six nations and will target lanky Shane at every chance. However, Horgan's height advantage and great form in HC/ML will test Robinson and high balls from ROG.
Finally, would hope Ireland hold onto the ball more and allow the home crowd get behind the team. Should be a cracker!
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please,please let's forget about the politics and concentrate on the rugby...and lets just look forward to giving england a jolly good hiding!!
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As English born of Welsh and Scottish grandfathers, I agree that England should find their own anthem at international sports fixtures, not just rugby.
There are plenty of possibles, Jerusalem, etc,
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To the person who wrote No. 37,
Believe me, everyone I know in England would rather we sang our own anthem! It's just the intransigence of some bureaucrats that means we have to sing GSTQ
[end of politics]
Now on to the rugby. I honeslty can't see how England can get anything out of this game. I just think Ireland will be freed by the grand slam weight being taken off and play with passion, skill and pace.
The only way I can see England winning is if Ireland are extremely indisciplined and if we can recycle the ball much more effectively than we have been doing so far.
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Imagine if you will.....far fetched I know but the Croke Park issue is lost on most of you. Its a momentous event that no amount of blas茅 sticking your heads in the sand will sort out.
While England was under the control of the 3rd Reich an SS battalion entered Wembley Stadium and ruthlessly shot dead 14 men, women and children. After many years the German national team are due to play at the stadium for the first time following many years of horrendous violence from both sides..
How do you think the majority of English people would react?
a) Charitably
b) Wince at the thought of Uber alles booming through the stadium
c) Be openly hostile
How do you think the English press/Sports/Light entertainment presenters would react?
a) Charitably
b) Distribute free 'Revenge for Wembley' pull out posters
c) Print a list of insults in German to drown out their anthem
d) Engage in considered debate
Some might think this far fetched but in reality it isnt. How dare the English team and support expect a pat on the back for taking to the field of play / entering the stadium. How dare they play the victim card. How dear they equate this game with what went on in 1973. Vomitous.
They will get the same respect as any other team and then I hope Ireland tear them apart.
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There are some very heavy-handed posts here. I think having seen the press at work, that some of us are in danger of losing the perspective on the game.
The GAA have recognised that this is a sport without a home and offered a generous hand of friendship.
The English RFU have recognised the need to understand the significance of of this gesture by inviting the rugby-capped son of an All-Ireland medal winner to explain what Croke Park means.
Ulster supporters of the protestant tradition have recognised the generosity of nationalists in welcoming them to an icon of nationhood. For many of them in the six counties the GAA was tantamount to "the other side". They have had to do a lot of "moving on" themselves. Anyone living in the North will recognise the bitterness created for the vast majority by a few gobshoots and like all of us they have frankly had enough.
In Post #28 Stephen says
"But on Saturday we will have 3 anthems sung and I don't really care which one people want to sing... just sing it with pride and let everyone else do the same"
That is going to be the view of at least 80,000 of the crowd. Those who want to drag up a shameful past for everyone will be looked at with judgement as to their real agenda.
By the way, Ireland have far more capable forwards than the pre-season analysts suggested... competent enough in the front five and ever more effective in the loose. Because of that and a very talented back line, I see us winning by a few points.
I hope, really hope that travelling supporters have a fantastic time, respect the locals and return with happy memories (and empty wallets please)
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At Post 59
"Some might think this far fetched but in reality it isnt. How dare the English team and support expect a pat on the back for taking to the field of play / entering the stadium. How dare they play the victim card. How dear they equate this game with what went on in 1973. Vomitous"
England (or the English RFU) have shown no expectation of a "pat on the back" that I am aware of.
We Irish are really not bad ourselves at the victim thing. Only in Modern Ireland are most of us capable of shaking that attitude off. I have seen no "victim" mentality displayed by any public figure in the RFU.
This poster should focus on the fact that we are lucky to see what will be a fantastic game (hopefully) where both teams are required for the spectacle to work. I have had enough of having my views manipulated by the press and will take the historic element of Saturday with the modern perspective it needs. You can live in the past if you want, but you will miss a great game
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Post 62
Don't mix politics and sport. Ireland are going to play rugby not avenge the killings of 30 plus years ago.
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It seems England and the British are confused whenever it is convenient for the Irish. The Auxiliaries who did the shooting at Croke Park were not necessarily English and quite possibly Ulstermen.The Government at the time was British, not English (and indeed had been since 1801). I dont see the "English" playing the victim card..but at least one correspondent manufactures some outrage at some very straw dog arguments. I assume that he doesnt care for the Rugby.
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What is happening here? As a rugby fan, I really wish that the whole Croker thing had never arisen. Yes, I know this is very important to many people, but we're talking about a game of Rugby Union; I've always thought it inspiring that this wonderful sport is one of the few that doesn't distinguish between North and South, and all the historical, political and religious enmities can be put to one side, at least for the 80 minutes of the world's most compelling game (how did soccer get the 'beautiful game' moniker, by the way?). Of course we want 'our team' to win, whoever we are, but, unlike the history behind Croke, this is meant to be apolitical, unreligious, and simply a wonderful demonstration of how great RU can be; to the winner the spoils, and let's all have a beer afterwards. For the record, I consider myself English, but my paternal grandmother was Killarney born & bred; if England can't win the title, then I'll be cheering on Ireland (my maternal grandmother was French, so they can come 3rd).
I really can't be arsed to complain about SR's Nazi analogy in the previous post. Beyond contempt sounds too patronising, so I'd just like to point out that a relative of mine was killed in Warrington all those years ago.
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The English have an absolute nerve playing the British anthem anyway. If they weren't so arrogant they should follow the lead of the Welsh and Scots and get their own anthem. Please could someone explain the difference to them; the 6N committee should insist they use their own anthem and not a song shared with other countries.
Its not just the Irish who are offended by it; other Celts share their view.
YES!! Quite right..... THe English SHOULD NOT be singing GSTQ - We are English and are the ONLY ones without our OWN National anthem!! Not through OUR arrogance though.... it's just that WE always thought we WERE one UNITED kingdom and never saw the need for our own anthem .... So YEs other Celts share this view - ALL OF US ENGLISH CELTS of ancient ancestry, who have had our ancestors on these islands as long as the rest of US CELTS!!! thank you my fellow Celt for pointing out our lack of an anthem.
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SR, What a load of post colonial lowest common denominator whinneying. It's a rugby match it's got naff all to do with our respective histories, bloody as they are.
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To post No 62 (SR).
You're a poisonous individual and if this is what playing a game of Rugby at the sacred Croke Park means you鈥檙e very much welcome to it. The rebuilding of Lansdowne road probably couldn鈥檛 come quick enough for most people.
And as usual you been whipped up by the media frenzy and engulfed yourself in historic events in order to get your point across.
The English team (and I'm probably taking a shot in the dark, no pun intended there) wouldn't expect anything other than to play a game of rugby, but it individuals like you who take the comments and views of certain parts of the press and make them the views of the England players and the English as a whole.
On a lighter note people I'm looking forward to the game even if some of the viewing public (no post No's mentioned) would equate the English to a bunch of goose stepping maniacs intent on persecuting the Irish for fun.
Just thought I would also mention that while I really hope England win nothing other than and Ireland victory will be the outcome.
Now where did I put that brown shirt and swastika armband?
PS. I can't believe this is a topic of discussion, but I couldn't let narrow minded individuals have it all their own way.
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'citing though int it?
C O M E O N I R E L A N D !
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SR, What a load of post colonial lowest common denominator whinneying. It's a rugby match it's got naff all to do with our respective histories, bloody as they are.
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To post No 72, SR (Not 62, apologies to Pedrito)
You're a poisonous individual and if this is what playing a game of Rugby at the sacred Croke Park means you鈥檙e very much welcome to it. The rebuilding of Lansdowne road probably couldn鈥檛 come quick enough for most people.
And as usual you been whipped up by the media frenzy and engulfed yourself in historic events in order to get your point across.
The English team (and I'm probably taking a shot in the dark, no pun intended there) wouldn't expect anything other than to play a game of rugby, but it individuals like you who take the comments and views of certain parts of the press and make them the views of the England players and the English as a whole.
On a lighter note people I'm looking forward to the game even if some of the viewing public (no post No's mentioned) would equate the English to a bunch of goose stepping maniacs intent on persecuting the Irish for fun.
Just thought I would also mention that while I really hope England win nothing other than and Ireland victory will be the outcome.
Now where did I put that brown shirt and swastika armband?
PS. I can't believe this is a topic of discussion, but I couldn't let narrow minded individuals have it all their own way.
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If the Irish front five can gain parity then Ireland will win, otherwise I can see a repeat of Munster v Leicester a couple of weeks ago. I'm very surprised that Simon Best has been left out although I'm sure he'll make an impact with 20 minutes to go.
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Come on Ireland let us deliver a great result for the whole nation . I will be singing all 3 anthems on saturday and will do so with pride. I am an ulsterman but i am going to enjoy the experience. Still struggling with the selection process.
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Maybe the game should be played in a chip shop in Omar?
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A couple of points:
1) Jim Stokes never did explain his rationale as to why the crowd should give a standing ovation upon England's arrival on the pitch. I read the article this morning and am still mystified as to why would an ovation be appropriate. Is it to demonstrate "The New Ireland" and how magnanimous the Irish have become, in putting to one-side both centuries old aversion to the English and an inferiority complex now that there is an underlying confidence and wealth in the country? Or did he just have to fill column inches within a tight deadline?
2) To the Ulsterman who advocates that "His National Anthem" is also God Save the Queen, this backs up my own thought that the fewer Ulstermen on the Irish team, the better. That raw passion, and willingness to die for the team may just be lacking when most needed. Identity crises and insecurity seems the flavour of the day up north. It's probably best to sort out the racism issue of Ulster's own fans, Edinburgh, Trevor Brennan and Newport/Gwent, all complaining of racist actions in the last three months. Not a coincidence.
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It's simple everyone shows respect for each other and may the best team win.
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I agree with the questions on selection. EOS is being very conservative. Best and Flannery should be in with Murphy at the No. 15. The English will have to go after almost every Irishman on the pitch. The Irish will just have to go after Wilkenson.
As for the Croke Park issue. Abraham Lincoln once said, "I'm less concerned with what my grandfather was than what his grandson has become."
Let it go.
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I'm sticking to the rugby here. I agree with most of EOS's choices, however Ireland tend to have slow(very slow) starts and so Neil Best would be ideal to kick start Ireland into gear. His 17 minute cameo role against the french was awesome. He would make life hell for ellis and wilkinsin, argueably the two key players for England. Horgan on the wing will run riot when he cuts in to take on an inexperienced Farell. Darcy and BOD will tear the english midfield to shreads. Having Stringer and BOD back will be a huge boast. I cant see England winning this one, without Wilko they have nothing.
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Jim and Diarmid - thanks for two excellent comments and sorry if I am too lazy to congratulate the rest of you who also contributed great comments.
Whilst I appreciate the sensitivity of the issue. This is about a game of rugby and I hope it is a cracker!
To SR and the others who don't believe this is about rugby. The Germans launched indiscriminate bombs on london (incl. V1's & 2's), including Wembley, killing hundreds, if not thousands of innocent people. But Germany have played Wembley many times after two WW's and were given the honour of playing there last. They marched across most of Europe and are welcomed in most of those countries too without having their noses rubbed in it. A terrorist group, representing and funded by some Irish people, killed innocent women and children for many years in the name of Ireland up until very recently. And you want people to remember the actions of a group of irregulars almost 90 years ago in the name of Britain. Most of the perpetrators, as I understood it, were N. Irish, although my history is a little hazy there. If you want to remember that, good. But it has nothing to do with rugby and you have no "national moral superiority" because you've failed to move on.
Like all neighbouring countries with long histories it is easy to dig up reasons to be bitter, if you have the prejudice to do so. The reality is, the people of the British Isles have way, way, way more in common than different.
Thanks so much to those who refuse to get carried away with the politics and I am hoping dearly for a great game and may the best side win.
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I think the behaviour of post 29 is disgraceful!!! This is not football, and we do not want to it to turn into it. I am english and I'm not saying forget what happened on bloody sunday, but to stop going on about it, it was a dark day yes, but it was a very long time ago and it should in no way affect a game of rugby, which is a peaceful sport, played 80 years later!!!
And also while we are portraying the english as the bad guys in all of this, like a few posts have, lets not forget that the irish killed the british agents first!!
Anyway away from politics, I think England will play the normal dreary game they all ways do and jonny will probably kick them to victory seeing as his range is about 60m at a push! But i think it should be an exciting game!
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So, an article entitled 'Why England may win historic Croker contest' is based on the solid fact that you kind of though they might have beaten Ireland on a Grand Slam run, and now France stopped the Slam, you stll kind of think England might possibly win? So Ashton's not bad, and might know who's playing, and Wilko's not a bad kicker of the ball, and maybe Stringer has a sore hand. But the Boss is quite good too. So that's ok, then.
Well. What words can justify?
Nice one.
That's some snappy journalism.
Three gold stars.
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I am appalled by this post
"The English have an absolute nerve playing the British anthem anyway. If they weren't so arrogant they should follow the lead of the Welsh and Scots and get their own anthem. Please could someone explain the difference to them; the 6N committee should insist they use their own anthem and not a song shared with other countries.
Its not just the Irish who are offended by it; other Celts share their view."
If you knew anything about history GSTQ was written was to raise moral in england when the jacobites were rebelling in "the Forty Five" rebellion of 1745 when Wales wasn't even its own country, so it is the national anthem of england as well as the other members of the union, and they have as much right to play it as the others do, even if others decided to use different anthems!!!!
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wESTON LAD IS 100 PER CENT CORRECT....THE ANTHEM OF THE BUTCHERS APRON IS TOTALLY DESPISED BY ALL TRUE CELTS....THE SOLDIERS SONG AND THE WELSH ANTHEM ARE THE MOST EVOCATIVE,EMOTIONAL SONGS/TUNES ON GOD'S CLEAN EARTH !!!!!!!
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SR POST 92 TELLS THE TRUTH AND acceptlepercy talks of a few gobsh#tes ????? Just remember what these people have done to the IRISH over the centuries and think if it was the other way around.....YES JUST THINK ABOUT IT.........
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Sean m 114.....YES YOUR HISTORY IS VERY HAZY...THE BLACK AND TANS WERE OVERWHELMINGLY ENGLISH AND AS EVIL AS THE NAZIS....GOD SAVE IRELAND FROM THICK IGNORANT GUTLESS COWARDS LIKE YOU !!!!! HOPE IRELAND WIN WHETHER IT'S RUGBY,FOOTBALL OR ANYTHING ELSE....SAOIRSE !!!!!!
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I am a soccer nut and i always applauded the picking of an all irish team in rugby,boxing etc and longed for the day when i would see the same in soccer,After reading all this garbage about singing ones national song i find myself saying leave soccer the way it is until all these bigote grow up and put sports first .These people are not sports fans.History is history grow up for the love of ireland and the game
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I am a soccer nut and i always applauded the picking of an all irish team in rugby,boxing etc and longed for the day when i would see the same in soccer,After reading all this garbage about singing ones national song i find myself saying leave soccer the way it is until all these bigots grow up and put sports first .These people are not sports fans.History is history grow up for the love of Ireland and the game
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MY POST ABOUT WILLIE JOHN MCBRIDE WAS REMOVED,WHY.....I READ HIS AUTOBIOGRAPHY AND HE IS CLEARLY A UNIONIST AND ANTI NATIONALIST !!!!!! I KNOW THIS IS ABOUT SPORT BUT YOU JUST CAN'T HIDE THE FACTS.....READ IT, HE SAID IT !! THE G.A.A MUST BE CONGRATULATED FOR ENDING THE RULE !!!!! IT MUST HAVE BEEN VERY DIFFICULT FOR EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THEM !!! GOD BLESS !!
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APOLOGIES OISIN 114,I MEANT SEAN M 115 OF COURSE......I RECKON SEAN MUST BE ABOUT 5 GIVEN HIS UNDERSTANDING OF THESE VERY IMPORTANT ISSUES....KNOWLEDGE IS EVERYTHING....IGNORANCE IS NOTHING !!! PS. I WAS GUTTED WHEN THE FRENCH WON IT LATE ON AS I TRULY BELIEVED IRELAND HAD A GENUINE CHANCE OF THE GRAND SLAM.
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Guys - its RUGBY not POLITICS. SR you have no place in a rugby crowd if thats how you think. This is a game of rugby, its football who have the hooligans, gobsh*tes and so on, don't degenerate into them!
Move on, whining about things that happened almost a century ago won't help anything.
England to win by a few points (unless O'Connell and O'Callaghan get better play the way the can and failed to do last time out)
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I agree with the lad who says that the RFU has made a mistake by going on about the history of Croke Park. It's a stadium like any other big stadium in Europe; big old concrete thing with bars, restaurants, parking outside, bunch of seats and a green bit in the middle where all the business goes on. Deal with it and play the game. The 6 nations has been laden down with too much nationalist nonsense in recent years; crystallized in the re-enactments of Bannockburn we see at Murrayfield. Good grief! Get a life people and move on! Imagine the outcry if at Twickenham, the ERFU lined up a bunch of actors in kilts and simulated firing grapeshot at them in remembrance of Culloden! "Do not pass Go! Proceed directly to the European Court of Human Rights! Pay 200 Million in regional aid!"
I am an ex-pat Englishman who have the pleasure of being in the UK to watch this game on Saturday and I am looking forward to a good match (which Ireland will probably win unless we can keep them under 15 points). I will frankly care not a whit about the history involved 'COS IT'S OVER (and that comes from a bloke half of whose family are Irish immigrants from Liverpool)!
As for the Anthem. Yes we know GSTQ is tedious but it's what English teams sing before every game regardless of the sport from rugby to tiddly winks because SHE IS OUR QUEEN like it or not! And yes we know she's not the Queen "Most of Ireland" and hasn't had a claim on the place for 90 years plus. History lesson well and truly over; we get it. Would we rather have "Land of Hope and Glory" or "Jerusalem"? Absolutely, but it is what it is. The correct response from the Celtic Nations would be to let it be sung and not get brassed off by it or boo it. We don't boo anyone else's anthem (not even the one that drones on about a medieval victory over a bunch of disorganized chinless wonders and a King of dubious sexual preference) and you don't boo the Marseillaise. Have the courtesy to do the same for us and the world will be a happier place.
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Dear Daniel 118 as a scotsman I am truly appalled by the line in GSTQ which states rebellious SCOTS to crush....all these centuries later these lyrics still stand....TRULY APPALLING and as we all know it is still an ANTI CATHOLIC INSTITUTION !!! When will this lot move into the 21 st century and end THEIR BIGOTRY !!!! If they do then maybe we can all move on....GOD BLESS !!!
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SHE IS OUR QUEEN MR JOHNSON ????? YOU WOULD BE DISTRAUGHT IF YOU REALISED HOW MANY BRITISH PEOPLE WANT RID OF THESE PARASITES NOT LEAST OF ALL US TRUE SCOTS...VIVE LE REPUBLIC !!!
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Astounded by some of the political claptrap on here. I am English with strong Irish family connections and looking forward to a magnificent contest at the weekend. Too close to call for my money but should be one of the most exciting games of the year.
For the record, the vast majority of English people would prefer Jerusalem or Land of Hope and Glory as our anthem. Most of us believe we have far more in common with the Irish than differences. English nationalism is growing ever stronger and there is great support for complete independence for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. The sooner the better. As a few posters have said, we need to move on. There were despicable acts committed by both sides over the years and both sides suffered some terrible losses. What this has to do with a game of rugby is beyond me.
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The one game I felt rose above the politics that seem to be taking over everything. History is history nothing can be done to change the past. Lets just enjoy the spectacle and the sport.
Gerry
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Having read this blog and as an Irish man, I now know why I left the country 17 years ago. I not only sat in the stands at Croker from the age of six, I also had the pleasure to play GAA there. National pride is one thing, not having the brains to realise that while a lot of the bloggers here are deep in thought about Bloody Sunday, the intelligent Irish men amoung us have moved on.
It's a game of Rugby and I'm sure the English team have already been given a history lesson on Croker and will bring the necessary respect for the place with them.
However, 脥 bet they will not bring any respect for the Irish Rugby team with them and that will be the Irish downfall. The Irish lack the killer instinct in any sport when it comes to Internationals, it's the Irish way of life. Who plays where and why won't really matter. Just enjoy!
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Source: Canadian Journal of History, David Leeson
More than eighty years later, new documents may finally resolve the debate over the Croke Park massacre. In the days after Bloody Sunday, two military courts of inquiry were held: their proceedings were held back by the government, but have now been released at last. When these proceedings are combined with evidence from other contemporary sources, the causes of the massacre become clear. The police did not go to Croke Park seeking revenge: they really were planning to round up the crowd, and search for weapons and wanted men. Once they came to the park, however, a few shots were fired-not by rebel pickets but by the police themselves. Spectators panicked and fled. Police panicked and started shooting indiscriminately. Their officers restored order after less than two minutes but they were too late. Nine people were dead, another five were dying, and dozens more had been injured.
Hoping for a great match where both teams play to their true potential.
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If Ireland can ruck and clear out the ruck as well as they did against Australia and in the second half against France, they will win. D'Arcy and BOD are the best centre pairing in world rugby and given quick ball they will be unstoppable.
Ashton knows this (obviously!)and the task for England will be to get to O' Gara fast, forcing him deep at set pieces and to be quickest to the breakdown and hit it like the ABs. Ireland dominated more in the second half against France because Betsen is not as good as he was, and is slower than he was and he got tired. This allowed O' Gara more time and he started to rule the game. If Lund plays they way he did against Stade Francaise in Paris, or if Reese is brought on and plays the way he did against Sale, the outcome could be an England win. Fast pick and drive through the middle with quick off-loading will be England's best hope. Ireland will try the same but will want to release BOD earlier.
The forward battle will be evens, England's front three may just tip the balance.
England lack pace in the backs and loose kicking could give it to Ireland. One spark of genius could be the difference. It will depend how much Ireland want to win.
As an English rugby supporter, I would like to see England drop GSTQ as it is allegedly the anthem of the Union, not the English anthem. Let's have Land of Hope and Glory, it was played at the Commonwealth Games in Manchester. Each team needs its own anthem, no point in playing the British one.
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why would anyone want to boo GSTQ?
have you ever watched the ulstermen during the irish anthem, there lips are sealed, the game on saturday should be played as a rugby game not a history lesson, we dont boo the german anthem when they play football over here, my wife is Irish and i have many friends in Dublin who live in 2007 not 1920
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Ref 94 and Jerusalem as an English national anthem. I can already hear the cries of Israelis, Palestinians; Jews, Christians and Moslems alike. Let's face it National Anthems' are Naff; consign them to the dustbin of history. Lets just get on with the game!
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To Dan Kearns (no 118),
Irrelevant of history, GSTQ is the BRITISH national anthem and should be played at sporting events where BRITAIN are competing. And if 'the majority' of English want something different (as mentioned in a previous post), why don't they get off their velvet seats at 'HQ' and make their feelings clear to the RFU!
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This is incredible stuff. "Poisonous", "Political". You all completely missed the point. Utterly.
Have any of you people read The Sun, Mirror, Daily Express etc etc etc in the week leading up to a Germany V England, or England V Argentina match?
I am simply pointing out that if the stadium incident (Bloody Sunday) occured within England do you think there would be a respectful silence in the media or on the day? You must be joking!!!
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Danny Murphy you are pathetic. No one should boo anyones anthem. No, the English should not get a standing ovation or any 'special' treatment at all for that matter both negative and positive. It is a rugby match, what happened happened but none of the English players were involved. Grow up or get out.
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Lads,
There's a famine in africa, the climate is changing, I have to give up choclate for lent.
Just watch the game.
Yet again Ireland have to worry about settling for second because EOS won't pick the form players. Thank good someone made a plate for the triple crown. Look what he is able to do with the best pool of players available to Ireland in the last 50 or so years. Neil best should have been picked from the start. He stood up to the aussies, and stood up to the french. We were lucky we weren't further behind at half time.
England can sneak this if they drag the came to their level, like Ireland tried to do all thorough the 80's and 90's
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Why is everyone insisting on turning what should be a fantastic encounter into a history lesson?!
Also I wouldn't right england off too easily!
Just watch and enjoy the game!!
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The bigotry and idiotic content of some of the posts here doesnt really surprise me. I am an Englishman living in Ireland and am constantly amazed at the levels of anti English racism which is endemic in this society and is preached in National schools and even church. My 8 year old daughter is regularly indoctrinated at school with anti English propaganda and no-one even questions it or even seems to realise they are doing it. The Irish love to wallow in their subjugated past. Even now with the Celtic Tiger roaring they cant and wont let go and move on. Every single one of my 10 year old son's friends wears an English premiership soccer shirt and avidly watches Match of the Day but are forbidden from supporting their footballing heroes when they play for England. Kids dont care about these things. Stop the preaching and in a generation the problem is greatly reduced.
As for the post about the anti Scotish/Catholic lyrics to GSTQ what about the dirge that the Scotish sing prior to games? Correct me if I'm wrong but isnt that crowing about defeating the English in a battle hundreds of years ago? Very pc and not at all racist then.
Saturday is about rugby. Dreadful things happened on both sides nearly a century ago but for Gods sake let go and move on.
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Saturday will not be the first time that GSTQ will be played at Croke Park. It was played during the Special Olympics and the Union Jack flew over Croke Park for that event. I do not recall any outcry from the from the self appointed guardians of Ireland and Irishness.
Giving the zealots and bigots oxygen to fan the flames of hatred serves nobody but themselves
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Judging by the posts the Irish are worried. And understandable. It is hard to bounce back from defeat in 6 Nations. Wales won Grand Slam with a momentum that seemed unstoppable after beating England. Psychologically England are in the driving seat with 2 from 2 and have momentum. It has the potential to be the game of the tournament, but defence will smother the game entirely. 12-6 to England.
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The second point made in Post 111 postulates that Ulstermen may lack the "raw passion" required when playing for Ireland. This is an insult to past greats such as Willie John McBride, past stalwarths such as Paddy Johns, and current team members such as Neil Best (ask the Australians if he has enough "raw passion"). Davy Tweed, a staunch Unionist, played with a huge amount of passion on the few occasions he wore the green shirt. Sean, I hope that you know very little about rugby, as if you know your rugby and make such a comment you are simply a bigot.
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Its rather sad that a preview of a fascinating game of rugby should be clouded by political issues. Why do we have national anthems before sporting internationals anyway? What purpose is fulfilled? The players are hyped up and ready to go, the supporters are tanked up and ready to go - The whole pre-match VIP introductions and anthems ballyhoo is an anticlimax which merely delays what we are all looking forward to.
On purely aesthetic grounds "The Soldier's Song" is up there with French, Welsh and Italian anthems while GSTQ, "Ireland's Call" and "Flower of Scotland" are crimes against music. As for a separate English anthem, "Jerusalem" is too long, and "Land of Hope and Glory" is sentimental twaddle. Better to do away with all of them.
Ireland will have settled the Croker nerves while England have too many questions to answer post Italy. Ireland to win by 10 points.
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As a Dubliner, I can't wait for the game and I can't get a ticket for love nor money.
It's a brilliant occasion, England playing in Croker, and one which makes me truly proud of the political efforts of all sides over the recent years to bring the situation to this, maturity and respect and forward looking have prevailed thank God.
GSTQ will indeed be an extraordinary moment in Croker; of course it will be respected, like the anthem of any nation.
Ireland to win after a cracking game. I think EOS is brilliant; tough but correct calls; really sorry for Murphy, he is my only concern that his confidence doesn't get permanent damage due to this 6 nations campaign, he is much needed and has a big role to play in the world cup I hope.
Stringer's pass is world class. He may be small but it is worth it because we have the best back line so any advantage to getting ball to them is to be prioritised.
A huge welcome to all travelling English supporters, may you have a wonderful trip and I hope you find solace in Arthur Guinness after your hard fought defeat!
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SR post96, imagine if you will impossible as it may seem, that instead the Nazis had spent a summer bombing London,Coventry,Bristol killing 1000s of innocents! 25 years later the German national football team play at Wembley in a world cup final which is still remebered as a fantastic occasion played and supported in the correct manner!!
Oh that actually did happen!
Get over yourself.
This is a sporting occasion, not an excuse to bang the war drum!
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Just to clear a few things up - England have every chance of beating Ireland and it is not a case of Wilkinson kicking the penalties - England have shown so far that they have a good side that will do what it takes to win - OK I havent yet seen a performance that will beat Ireland but if England go onto the pitch on Saturday and really set their minds to it they can win -they can force Ireland back they can force them to make mistakes and dont forget there are many players who are hungry for tries. As an English Man I can say that Ireland are looking the stronger of the two sides at the moment but then again England are out for the Grand Slam - England need to show the World that they are a force capable of at the very least defending their title - I am not saying they will retain it but they can put up an adequate defence but only if they win the Grandslam - Ireland are a good side but put them up against New Zealand and you can see the difference - Ireland will of course be after a win because of the historical significance of Croke Park but lets not forget whats on the players minds as they play - it is not the events that took place on Bloody Sunday it is not the historical significance of playing at Croke Park - all either side will care about is a win - Brian Ashton has made a wise decision in his squad line up and whilst France are experimenting and winning England need consistency so that is why the side remains relatively unchanged - so all I can say is at the End of the day the team that plays the best will win - hopefully that will be England but I think this game is a game where the two best teams in the tournament face each other and only one can come out the victor.
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Irish living in Australia, working with the Australian Defence Forces where in every mess there hangs a portrait of QE2. And my point! There is none. I don't lose a nights sleep over this. Looking forward to watching the game with my many English and Irish friends on Sat(Sun morning here; 0330am, Jasus that's a late one)
Saturday will come and go and following the game I know that many an Irish person will don their English premiership jerseys to go to the pub and cheer on their favourite English team.
Enjoy the game everyone.
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So we are reliant on JW? Is Ireland not reliant on BO'D?
As for history? This is the past and has gone, the thing i love about being British is my tolerance towards others and its very easy in this country not to be tolerant, but being a rugby fan i will not go down the route others on this post have, lets have a great day on saturday and let the best teams win.
I was cheering Ireland on when the beat Australia and will always cheer the team closest to home on. I am and will be better than the whingers on here.
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Post 118 neatly illustrates why GSTQ should be reserved for events where GB play as a whole (e.g. Olympics), but England should have it's own Anthem (as Scotland and Wales use).
Personally, I find GSTQ to be a bit dull. It's a dirge. Compared to the uplifting tunes some of our continental neighbours have, it pales into blandness (e.g. the Marseillaise).
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Dan Elliott,
Just to clear a few more things up,
England have ALWAYS been reliant on Wilkinson to kick their penalties, oh, AND score the odd try that shouldn't have been. Without him they have been, well, what they really are without him - average.
They are reliant on their pack, big inside backs and JW's boot, but sadly in the modern professional game of creatine-fuelled monsters, that's enough to win at times, as proved in the last world cup.
If Ireland's pack can match Englands they will win due to far more creative and talented backs (outside Stringer and O'Gara).
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by the sounds of things Mr. James Stokes Esq. would like to be the one singing "God..ahem...Save the Queen" in Croke Park.....Hard luck Jim, we've already asked the Wolfe Tones to perform on the day.....
Go On Ireland!!
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Post 150.
Good on ya Surreypuma.
How wonderful to live so far away from this remember the past attitude. Learn from the past some of you and stop living in it.
Ireland to win by 6.
Liamaroo.
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Leave the historical musings and the resulting misgivings to the (minority) of GAA people - their organisation voted overwhelmingly to allow/welcome other sports to Croke Park, that's that.
National anthems - what a can of worms! Undoubtedly, the singing of anthems adds to the spectacle, the sense of occasion and the atmosphere; but sport should be divorced from politics and, in the distant future, our descendants will look back on the current era with astonishment that inflammatory and unnecessary songs are wailed before sporting occasions (I hope so anyway!).
Ireland and England are two flawed teams. There won't be much more than the kick of a ball between them at the end. I will be shouting for Ireland from my couch in Surrey.
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Only the feeble-minded will view this rugby match as having any political significance whatsoever. Bringing up tragedies like Bloody Sunday in the context of a sporting event is unfortunate in the extreme. What about Warren Point? Should we start an atrocities match? Lots of things happened in the six counties during the troubles that all sides have cause to regret but unless we start looking forward rather than back, we'll never get anywhere.
I'm looking forward to a game of rugby football played between thirty skillful guys with more talent that I could ever have dreamed of. I appreciate the gesture made by the GAA in allowing Ireland to play rugby at Croke Park. The sadness, for me, is that it should have any significance. The greatest thing, surely, is that the Irish rugby team is representative of the whole of the island of Ireland - the only sporting team so composed to my knowledge. maybe it is to that fact that we should all be looking on the weekend.
It's time to stop re-fighting ancient battles and accept that the past cannot be altered. Those who died in the various conflicts are owed more than stupid,bigotted, mindlessly partisan gestures like 'booing God Save the Queen to the rafters.' That would merely be an insult to the present people of the United Kingdom, some of whom just happen to play in the Irish rugby team.
In all my many years of following club and international rugby, I have always felt that mutual love of the game transcended petty nationalistic bombast. I could stand and applaud a brilliant piece of skill by any team and not feel my manhood was in anyway threatened. Rivalry is one thing, and when conducted in the right spirit, a very enjoyable thing. Petty nationalism is ugly, sterile and destructive. It achieves nothing and diminishes everything. So let's just live in the present, play the bloody game and may the better team win!
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This age of rugby is one in which professional players ply their craft internationally and can represent the country of a preferred 鈥榚ligible鈥 antecedent. This route and that of residency smooth the path to a rewarding career. National anthems are now woven into the sometimes cringeingly gauche and overworked opening spectacle whilst being questionable in their ability to bond journeymen with their indigenous team mates in any sense higher than winning a sporting contest. With a few exceptions national anthems are rambling underwhelming dirges tantamount to musical offences that will be no better illustrated than by the offerings we鈥檒l get at Croke Park for Ireland vs England. Passion? Yes but the passion of baggage; of distilled historical enmity and hurt. 鈥楪od save the Queen鈥 offends me not just musically but because I believe in neither God nor the monarchy. We wouldn鈥檛, I hope, seek to belittle or offend the current generation of Germans as a mediated revenge for the history of their ancestors. Why should it be the case as it so often seems for the English. I am English and want England to win - unless Ireland play the better rugby. Quaint? I suspect there are many who feel the same way 鈥 the 鈥榓 win is a win mentality鈥 is buttressed by the hype of shallow spectacle with little artistic or real-world merit.
It鈥檚 time to ditch the national anthems.
May the best team win.
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I find it quite bizarre that people are claiming it is impossible to leave politics and specifically Bloody Sunday out of this weekends game. Firstly it has not been a key issue in other recent meetings between the two sides and a different pitch surely cannot have that much effect on the emotions of the players. Secondly Bloody Sunday was in 1972. The vast majority of the players on both sides are less than 35 years old thus were not even born when the tragedy occured and so it certainly is not part of their 'living memory'. I think it's a shame that what is shaping up to be one of the closest encounters between two teams representing countries with a real rugby pedigree should now revert to a hostility that many people have made an effort to put behind us. Bloody Sunday is not something that the England Rugby players or supporters are proud of, rather it is something that people of all British Nations sympathise with. Don't make it the fault of the players on Saturday and don't add to the already huge pressure on all international sportsmen by making them believe that it's revenge for something that no-one on the pitch had anything to do with.
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Exciled English,
I am Irish living in Ireland. You call our education system 'anti English' for the history it teaches? You say its propaganda!?
So 14 people murdered at a football match did not not occur?
It is not 'propaganda' of any sort. It is our history and history that, convieniently, is not thaught in English schools (I wonder why).
Anyway, there is a Rugby match this weekend. Ireland to win by 19 points to 16.
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I really think there will be trouble outside Croke Park at the weekend, i think some type of comprimise will be needed,after all players and fans safety does come first
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Apparently there is a game of Rugby on too! Let's enjoy it.
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well said in 149 - why not focus on the rugby, surely most people in ireland and england which are the silent majority and live side by side have moved on from all of this , as an english supporter whose father is irish and he is looking forward to beating england over a few pints of guinness on saturday and enjoying the game as im sure 99.9% of people on both sides will be . Its ireland's time at the moment so enjoy it
new anthem for england - 'let it be '
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RE SCOTT, We are not talking about Bloody Sunday 1972, were talking about Bloody Sunday 1920 when British forces shot dead innocent men,women and children(orders from the british hierarchy) in CROKE PARK!!
Now maybe you know why there is a bit of unrest with GSTQ being played in our stadium
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I know there is a lot of history in the past, but the last time I checked the Ireland Rugby Team was run by the IRFU not the GAA. Yes there is history both between Ireland and England (Britain) and the GAA and the other sports in Ireland, but Rugby as I see has generally focused on respect and fair play and the difference between Rugby and Football is that National Anthems aren't or disrespected.
If it is felt that a protest needs to be made (for what putpose I don't know) then I think that some Irish supporters may let themselves down. The Irish Rugby supporters have always been passionate but fair, and if this is not shown to be the case on saturaday then I would say teh too many GAA supporters have been allowed in at the expense of real Rugby fans.
A great game and may the best team win is all anyone wants.
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Chauvinism is such a blinder. To post 148: "the 2 best teams in the tournament face each other (in Croke Park) this week-end?"
Where have you been? Wasn't Ireland defeated at home, at the hands of a better French side? Wasn't England painfully laboring over a limited Italian side?
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Where was all the hoo-haa when God Save the Queen was last played in Croker, at the Special Olympics three years ago! This politicising of a sporting event is being drummed up by a bunch od one-eyed neanderthals who live their history. I learn from my history and move on. Heres hopin for a great game of rugby.
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Different "Bloody Sunday" Scott.
Frankly there have been too many "Bloody Sundays" and "Bloody any days" surrounding Irish partition but the abominations are hopefully now largely a thing of the past.
Certainly the GAA allowing rugby to be played at the park is a big deal and should be respected as such!
For me (English with 3 Irish grandparents) I want to see a cracking match with (unlikely) an English win. Perhaps more than that I want to see that the brotherhood that are rugby players and supporters don't allow themselves to be let down by any stupidity at the ground. We're not football fans.
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This post is staring to give me a headache. Sadly, it seems to show that the "New ireland" still has a long way to go towards anything resembling true reconciliation.
Post #46 - Pats - by your own words you are excluding any Ulsterman who does chooses to see GSTQ as his anthem as non-Irish...nuff said.
Post #100 - Again the Ulster Unionists have a lot to answer for, but to blame them for the events of Bloody Sunday at Croke Park is a stretch at best. Facts, not emotion please.
Post #111 - Ulster Identity crisis...I completely agree. I have seen it over and over again. However, i think the Nationalist ppulation have a very clear sense of identity, history and culture. The Protestant community, as you rightly point out is struggling with this concept. However, to argue that this is a reason to exclude Ulster players from the team is short-sighted. Do the names Jack Kyle, Willie John McBride, Mike Gibson mean nothing to the history of Irish rugby? For the current crop, many of these posts, and not just from Ulster supporters have praised Neil best for his passion and commitment.
Franco - WJ McBride is a product of his culture and environment. I may not agree with all his politics, but he played like a Titan for Ireland and the Lions.
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Some people want to hate. They wrap themselves in it like a comforting blanket. There is nothing that can be done about it because the hatred is the key thing in their lives. It is more important to them than Rugby or even the future. They are the past. Leave them to fester in it.
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I鈥檓 an England fan and I鈥檇 be much happier to sing Jerusalem. Why? Because 12,000 Englishmen singing Jerusalem would be 10 times louder and 100 times more passionate than GSTQ, which is, quite simply, a crap song.
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So following the analogy of the Nazis at Wembley. May be when the Italians visit we should really give them a hard time and the French as well.
You may of heard of something called the Roman Empire and heard of 1066 Norman Invasion. We should change the name of the stands to Boadicea (Queen of the Iceni Celts) and Harold II to remind these visitors of their impact on the English nation and their past crimes!!!???? As the Italians and French are the closet links we have to these past nations.
Or does not it count as it happened so long ago that those playing in these modern day sporting matches weren't alive back then!!
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We should give the English the same welcome as we get when we play in Twickenham. Remember they came when the others wouldnt, or have we forgotten that. Playing in Croke Park has nothing to do with the English.
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In no way do I want to belittle or otherwise show disrespect for the feelings generated by the 1920 murders and the emotional connection of playing at Croke Park. However, as an Englishman, I would never consider it acceptable to protest against, or boo the national anthem of, Germany because of the thousands bombed to death in the blitz - even though the events are more recent. I would, rather, consider it xenophobic, reactionary and simply out-dated. The world moves on. So should we.
It saddens me to have to write these words about a rugby match in the 21st century. Actually, maybe I didn't have to and have merely fallen into the trap laid by the narrow-minded and intolerant.
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Enough already !!
There's now enough politics on this Message Board to suit (and offend) all shades of opinion.
Could I suggest that we heed what that well-loved and long-lamented Belfast comedian James Young closed his shows with - "Stap yer fightin' !"
What about dedicating the rest of the debate to the rugby ?
I can detect that, despite their bravado, both sets of supporters can see enough in the opposing team to worry them. Brilliant !
And we'll only know who was right or wrong when the final whistle goes !
England got pipped at the post by Shane Horgan last year at Twickenham. After the French game, Ireland now know what that feels like. This completes the psychology - what we have is one nation's team wanting to be where the other was, and the other wanting to reclaim past glories.
Only the 6 Nations could serve up such a situation :-
England's Coach has worked for Ireland, where he preached radicalism. Now he's preaching concervatism more avidly than many a cleric round here !!
The venue is dripping with legacy, as is evidenced by this Message Board. And the history is casting up fact and fiction with equal abandon.
The landlords are on one hand making a grand gesture, and on the other are (allegedly) making a financial killing with the tickets.
The stadium (in hard North Dublin) make Lansdowne (in leafy South Dublin) seem like a tenement slum.
The pub owners in Dublin 4 are bemoaning the loss of 2 day's trade - Jaysus they must be down to their last million !
And the best bit is, that having taken lumps out of each other, the sides will have to get their heads around the fact that the World Cup is just around the corner.
We KNOW that by then no-one will give a stuff who won Ireland/England, but until them - roll on Saturday !!!
"Stap yer fightin' !!"
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No. 2. God Save the Queen may be the Northern Irish anthem but it's also the worst anthem ever!!
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As an irishman who has taken the queens shilling and lives and works in london I can't wait for the game on saturday.I think the nature of rugby fans in both countries is fantastic and hope that it continues on saturday.The national anthem of every country should be respected and if its not it will say more about the mindless morons who jeer than anything else.I for one am very disappointed that kickers are now jeered in ireland [except maybe for munster fans] and true rugby fans should be sorting out any bad behaviour on the stands internally.the politics involved in the occasion should never be forgotten and its hard to symphatise with englands losses when they where the instigators of all the troubles as they where so often in every part of the world.so much to be proud of being an englishman,fantastic poets writers,architects etc etc but colonization certainly is not one of them.so come and enjoy a good game of rugby and the hospitality dublin is famous for but please don't start telling people "it was a long time ago" "its all forgotten now" etc etc as you would'nt tell a rape victim to just get over it
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As a Scot I know that GSTQ was written during the jacobite rebellion. Yes, another time when English troops entered a foreign land & murdered men, women & children but what has that got to do with this wkend??
The fact that it is history does not mean we should forget. However, English people living today have nothing to do with what happened 30,40,50, 100 years ago. Let's look fwd instead of back.
I will be cheering my celtic brethren on & singing the irish anthems. The British anthem makes me choke.
I can't stand GSTQ & wish it was banned from being sung at any occasion. It's an anthem from a bygone era that is not relevant today. Get rid of the toffee nosed twits known as the monarchy. Taking millions from the tax payer which could be put into hospitals, schools etc.
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The politics is fascinating, as though people could not think about the significance of the game, not so much for the history (though the begining of post 164 is great - I know there is a lot of history in the past, what a scintilating and incisive post...) but for the very fact of what is gone. People forget that this is part of the process of an Irish relation to its colonial past. People too often forget that societal trauma is passed between generations. Even if there is booing at the anthem, the match is still happening in Croker, Ireland is changing, the scars of England's longest colonial (mis)adventure are healing, always gradually, always inch by inch.
With regard to the rugby comments it is rubbish to talk about Ireland's discipline. They did not concede a single penalty in the french half last sunday in the second half. Their discipline is superb when it suits them. All of this rubbish about the forwards not having what it takes is also fairly stupid, aside from a couple of relatively elementary mistakes on sunday they were right there with the french. The team plays well together, whereas englad look like they met for the first time 3 days before they play, which at times is not exactly untrue.
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I don't think the national anthem on saturday will be as big a problem as expected, surely after o shea has had he's chat with the english players about the history of croker, getting 15 players wanting to wear the white of england will be a bigger problem.
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Spot on Antrim Hills (#174).
The only things I will remember and re-run are spectacular passages of play within the white lines - which I hope there will be many.
How will the packs match up?, How will Farrell/Wilkinson cope?, Who will stand out between ROG vs JW ?will EOS miss Murphy as impact replacement ? So many questions... to be sorted by the guys on the pitch.
Ireland to win by a converted Try two minutes from end.
Chokers - Not, remember last year!
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In response to "Mark",
Every German in Germany is well aware of the dark past of their country during the wars and as a nation they have been humbled and seen to express deep remorse at a national level (not just at goverment level). Young people there are well aware of their history and they are better for it. German atrocities pale in comparison to the colonial opression dished out by the english throughout the history of their empire. I doubt many people in england had any idea that there were 2 Bloody Sundays in Ireland and that the first one took place in Croke Park under such horrific circumstances. England have never been humbled and the current generation show no remorse because they are blissfully ignorant to the other side of their countrys history. This is the essence of the notorious English arrogance and the main reason why this Saturdays match cannot shed its political overtones.
Instead of showing respect and remorse all the arrogant English are saying is "its nothing to do with me...I wasnt there in 1920...neither were the rugby team..." you are all missing the point so badly.
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Houstie number 177 wrote:
".........Get rid of the toffee nosed twits known as the monarchy. Taking millions from the tax payer which could be put into hospitals, schools etc."
Or better still, give the Welsh, Irish and Scots their independance and let us stop having to fork out BILLIONS to sustain there countries!
This is about RUGBY, not an anthem or a country, but 15 men vs 15 men! Best on day declared winners!
To one and ALL - Stop Bickering over History, it can NOT be changed, nor are ANY of the players responsible!
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If anyone has problems with God save the queen, how about this anthem:
The rottenest bits of these islands of ours
We've left in the hands of three unfriendly powers
Examine the Irishman, Welshman or Scot
You'll find he's a stinker as likely as not
The English the English the English are best
I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest
The Scotsman is mean as we're all well aware
He's boney and blotchy and covered with hair
He eats salty porridge, he works all the day
And hasn't got bishops to show him the way
The English the English the English are best
I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest
The Irishman now our contempt is beneath
He sleeps in his boots and he lies through his teeth
He blows up policemen or so I have heard
And blames it on Cromwell and William the Third
The English are moral the English are good
And clever and modest and misunderstood
The Welshman's dishonest, he cheats when he can
He's little and dark more like monkey than man
He works underground with a lamp on his hat
And sings far too loud, far too often and flat
The English the English the English are best
I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest
And crossing the channel one cannot say much
For the French or the Spanish, the Danish or Dutch
The Germans are German, the Russians are red
And the Greeks and Italians eat garlic in bed
The English are noble, the English are nice
And worth any other at double the price
And all the world over each nation's the same
They've simply no notion of playing the game
They argue with umpires, they cheer when they've won
And they practice before hand which spoils all the fun
The English the English the English are best
I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest
It's not that they're wicked or naturally bad
It's just that they're foreign that makes them so mad
The English are all that a nation should be
And the pride of the English are Chipper and me
The English the English the English are best
I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest
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I had no idea that the Irish were still burdened with such an enormous chip on their shoulder. The German's laid waste to most of Europe and slaughtered millions yet the appearance of their national team at the European Championships has never caused such controversy.
Look to Nelson Mandela's example and don't live life wallowing in the past. Lets enjoy the rugby.
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Typical that Irish Rugby players have to continually prove themselves again and again to the English Media and fans. 3 wins in a row in the competion against England and some people on this board are still trying to delude themselves that 'O gara is inconsistent' and the England tight 5 'will destroy the Irish tight 5.' The very same tight 5 that won the Heineken Cup. As a Scot I may not be the most impartial but i would put good money on Ireland to win this one and show up the Premiership for what it is.... a one dimensional, attritional game of British Bulldog.
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hey there post 179
how do we know that none of the english players where responsible ?
maybe wilko was a bit young for 1920 but his grandparents where not.And did'nt each and every one of them benefit from living in a country rich in employment and money which is a direct result of Colonization, so they may not have been directly involved but every englishman alive today has benefitted from growing up in such a confident and rich country which was gained through rape,pillage and murder- sleep sound
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To SR (again post 137 what ever)
OK, so after 30 years, nay almost 80 years of bombing campaigns within mainland Britain and yes say it England/NI Ireland, the press obviously carts out images of the victims in order to make the Irish visiting teams feel uneasy. This obviously happens when Ireland play at Twickenham.
Oh I've just realised that we in England probably deserved the troubles we English bring on ourselves and it's a penance for acts of violence by the British Government 80 years ago and before. Sorry I forgot I have to apologise for breathing.
And yes, you are Poisonous and you mentioned the press again as if this part of the media is the mouth of the general public within the UK.
And you鈥檙e not simply pointing out something that happened 80 years ago, your perpetuating the hate and violence that we all want to dispel.
Just to be controversial I bet the following headline won't be printed for Sunday Bloody Sunday's papers. "The English revel at Choke Park". I don鈥檛 need to explain the play on words, or do I.
Back to sport and I think people are mistaking England for being one dimensional and perhaps in some quarters we are. This happens because whilst rebuilding, caution prevails and winning is habit albeit two in row, which is a rarity for England. Once England build on hopefully a good result, it buys a bit of time to settle the team and get into a groove. A win over Ireland will help this cause obviously.
Everyone will know there jobs come Saturday. So the view that seemingly England just turn up and get beat is not a fair reflection from the Irish sector and one I heard just before the Irish got caught out in the last minute against France. It also makes me laugh you target Andy Farrell as a rabbit caught in the head lights. He has more experience internationally than 90% of the any player in the competition and his displays although safe are a testament to the fact that league player鈥檚 basic ball handling skills are better. Andy Farrell was in the mode of a JW whilst at Wigan and controlled games.
In the same breath JW basically rewards good forward play and gives the forwards confidence in the knowledge that 90% of the time he will get the 3 points and a dodgy try when called for. The current England team is cobbled together and I for one can see improvement even against Italy, but tactically they made the wrong choices and certain elements let their past experiences tell.
The way England play isn't pretty (England do hold the most tries ever recorded in the 5/6 nations), but if ever England needed an ugly display then its Saturday. Ireland can't assume that they can just throw the ball around on Saturday and get tries. They hardly even saw the ball for 20 minutes against France and by the end Irelands efforts of playing catch-up, told by sacrificing concentration. I would give England slightly more credit and they won't make the same ball carrying mistakes against Ireland. I for one will glad to see BOD back along with Stringer as it gives the Irish no excuses. This also puts a slight mockery on the taunts that England just rely on JW (perhaps true), but in all accounts Ireland are in a similar position in respect of BOD.
It should be Ireland鈥檚 time just like England in 2003, but unlike England, Ireland isn鈥檛 strong in all departments, which shows on big important occasions. Winning a Triple Crown in the last minute against a poor England side doesn鈥檛 cut it for me. It鈥檚 more important for Ireland to win on Saturday than England, not because England have nothing to loose, but Ireland put so much pre match talk in to how superior Ireland are in light of this years WC.
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I am not a fool. I have a great education I am liberal usually, a feminist and not racist in the accepted sense. I am very proud of my nation and anyone who represents the entity called Ireland. I am ashamed to say but I don't want to hear it. I never listen to it. You may think I am idiot and narrow minded but I am not one to stick my head in the ground and pretend things are okay. If more people accepted there were problems less people would have to be vocal about it. I am fed up with English people telling me Irish are peasants, that stupid things are Irish, and that we are all alcholics. I am even more fed up with Irish people telling me I am silly. This event at the weekend cannot escape history not even recent history. ... birmingham 6 guilford 4 maguire 7 blah blah. Yes the Anthem of GB will be played, I imagine it will be respected because generally we are good sports. I imagine a lot of people will be gritting their teeth. Lots of you are blind if you think we can just get on with it. We will get on with it when there is some acknowledgement of what has gone on in the near or distant past. I think it is a fantastic opportunity to lay some ghosts. A fantastic opportunity to see a great match but I don't trust myself to remain any less calm then when I normally watch Ireland. I think Irelands call will provide the fuel for the boys in green to sportingly speaking put the english dragon to the sword. I can never be responsible for the actions of my fore fathers but it not right to pretend they didn't happen either. I should acknowledge the pain on both sides and move on.
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Hell's teeth! What a lot of hostility there is out there.
How far back into history do we have to go before the finger of blame stops being pointed?
As a typical mongrel Englishman, with a mother from Poland and a Father of semi-distant Welsh ancestry, what should I do? Hate the Germans for invading Poland, or better still, despise Genghis Khan for doing the same thing centuries earlier? On the other hand, I could lose sleep over William the Conqueror who drove the original English into Wales...
Wait! I've got an idea. If you're looking for the source of English persecution, the Normans were to blame. We can ALL accuse them because they were French.
So it's all France's fault, then.
Bring on the game, it's gonna be great!
England to shade it by 4 points.
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Post 176
"please don't start telling people "it was a long time ago" "its all forgotten now" etc etc as you would'nt tell a rape victim to just get over it"
David,
I would do just that if they were maundering on about the rape of their great granny. I consider myself to be a reasonable man and with enough Irish antecedents - a distant relation of Tom Mcdonough - to be sympathetic to history. I'm horrified by the hostility I read here. It's the usual drivel I expect from the 'plastic paddies' usually encountered in Boston or New York.
No-one can deny dreadful things happened but someone here said it was worse than the Holocaust - now, isn't that stretching things just a teensy bit too far?
I understand these things are very emotional but it is also damaging Ireland to cling to them in this way. It is terribly sad that anyone still should feel like this.
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I think the comments sort of prove it's a very live issue... But I have to laugh at Bernard Trumpet. Nice ryhming but what are you on about. Is O Sullivan purposely not picking certain players in order to keep his powder dry for the World Cup? Just wondering if he could be that canny?
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In response to Hogan comment 181 : I am English and well aware of our history both good and bad ,how arrogant of you to suggest that only the Irish know about the history of the conflict, however we do not live in the past like you appear to , with regard to respect: yes of course we respect the Irish and their culture ,but ,remorse absolutely not , do you show remorse for the bombings that killed innocent civilians
in the mainland or the north of Ireland (I do not expect you to ,so do not expect remorse from the present English generation), you are one sick individual who is stuck in the past,
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England should win because they're better
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Jim, what england side have you watched in the first 2 weeks of the championship, I certainly have not sen a team good enough to beat Ireland. The beat an awful scotland team then struggled past italy at home!
And forget about the forwards, Ireland's back row is the best in the tournament! But for me all you need to look at is the difference in the backline. Englands centres are tindall and farrel, ours are BOD and D'Arcy, there is no comparison, the irish pair will run right past the english.
Also you talk about Wilkinson, he is definately an immensly gifted player but he is definately not at his best. O'Gara however is playing as well as I've ever seen, kicking, scoring tries and not missing tackles and if any 10 is going to control the game it'll be ROGs
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In response to James..
M
any english people are ignorant about the events of Croke but does this equate to arrogance?
I'm definitely all for players and people alike showing respect at Croke but I can't see why someone like Jason Robinson ( who's ancestory is not from these shores ) or Andy Farrell ( who's parents are from Ireland...Cork I think ) should show remorse? What did they do wrong to be remorseful about, apart from having the arrogance to be born in England?
PS Brian Trumpet. You're a fool of the highest order, there's something you can be the 'best' at
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Bernard Trumpet makes some very fair and reasonable comments. However, I wonder where he found a Scotsman who "works all the day"? Surely some mistake here.
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Well I am as English as they come and whilst I acknowledge my ancestors have a lot to answer for (not only in Ireland) I would like to add one thing.
A cousin of my family (Irish) lived in west of Ireland during the Rebellion. The IRA buried him up to his neck in the sand below the tide line. He was alive for a few hours before the tide drowned him. His "crime"? He was a civil servant (clerk) in the local courts. His murderers were never caught. I/we don't expect an apology. He was unfortunate in having to do his job in less fortunate times than we all live. The hysteria shown on this board about "acknowledgement of guilt" and "apologies" etc are shameful. Only those who gave orders and pulled triggers can acknowledge guilt.
As a late friend of mine who survived the Holocaust said "the best that the rest of us can do is make sure it doesn't happen again". Reinforcement of nationalism through projecting guilt by association is what the Nazis did after WW1 to the Jews.
PS BTW a large proportion of the appalling "Black and Tans" were Scottish - will Scotland be subject to the same discussion when they visit Croke Park?
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response to 192
Cumbrian Falcon, you are hillarious.
The fact that you do not expect me to show remorse for murders that were committed in my countries name speaks volumes about you and many of your countrymen. Your "rebuttle" has basically endorsed and underlined everything that I wrote in entry 182.
Hopefully there will be alot of Irish people showing remorse for the English on Saturday after we have beaten them at their own game.
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Somes posts are blatantly racist on here. Many posts have conveniently ignored the fact that it is not just English history that is being talked about, it is British history, Scots, Welsh etc etc. That's Right! BRITISH, Not English, but all the countries of the United Kingdom. There a lot of people on here who don't seem to know the difference.
It is so easy to replace English for British and it seems to be PC to do so!
I don't think anyone here can preach, we all have a history parts of which we are not proud of. Some Scots that have posted would do well to remember Glencoe.
So in repsonse to some of the idiots who have posted, what would you have the England Rugby Team do? Ritual Suicide maybe, stay at home. The past should stay in the past. Some will never be able to let go of it as it is that hatred which gives their lives purpose.
The rugby on Saturday should be a phenomenal game. Yes there is a match! Ireland have had the hoodoo on England the last few years and England will have to be at their best to stand any chance whatsoever. I think it will come down to who wants it most on the day though and I have a sneaky feeling that England may just edge it by 1 or 2 points.
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some of the messages on here make me ashamed to be irish! What happened happend its long past the time to move on and let the past lie.. Saturday should be all about a great game of rugby but some stupid people just cant stop bringing up all the old rubbish talk.. I for one hope the english fans are handed a warm reception and are respected as any sports team and fans should be in a modern world.. it will be embarrasing to be irish if people boo their anthem and protest about them playing in our capital city.. I am not advocating what happened in 1920 but the point is it happened in 1920 it was different times and different things happened in lots of places around the world that people have moved on from since and some of these were a lot bigger than what happened in croke park.
I for one will be hoping for a great game of rugby and cannot see england spoiling the day out on the field of rugby as I think we will win at a canter but I can see some stupid so called irish fans ruining my enjoyent of the game with their actions.. it will delight me to be wrong on that point! Come on Ireland!!!
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As an English born chap, of predominantly Irish parentage am looking forward to visiting Dublin again, especially as it is the first time for the rugby. Have always enjoyed the preliminaries and anthems at all the internationals I have attended, they help to make the day.Rugby is a physical passionate spoort, but which also provides off pitch friendships between on pitch adversaries. Long may it continue, that is why I feel safe bringing my wife to a game. Oh and I think Ireland will shade it by 6-10 points unless they give too amny penalties away.
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JAMES 181 your post is 100 per cent spot on !! The english and the forelock tuggers just want to sweep it all under the carpet and say move on it's history...but the reality is there is still strong ANTI IRISH RACISM prevelant among a large proportion of the english people in the here and now !!! An example of this was the despicable behaviour shown by martin johnson and co. to the IRISH PRESIDENT MARY McALEESE at landsdowne rd a couple of years back.WHEN WILL THEY EVER MOVE ON ????
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The fuss surrounding the singing of the English national anthem for the first time in Croke Park is media driven.
Most Irish supporters know that GTSQ has already been played in Croker several times at the recent Paralympic Games so no precedent is being set.
Those who cannot bring themselves to respect our opponents national anthem would do well to remember that the English themselves confronted the same situation in 1966...if the English could listen to Deutchland Uber Alles at Wembley within 25 years of the Blitz then I think the Irish can welcome their opponents with equal magnaminity.
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I think that saturday should be focused on rugby and not on some incident from a long time ago, and comments like 181,
"In response to "Mark",
Every German in Germany is well aware of the dark past of their country during the wars and as a nation they have been humbled and seen to express deep remorse at a national level (not just at goverment level). Young people there are well aware of their history and they are better for it. German atrocities pale in comparison to the colonial opression dished out by the english throughout the history of their empire. I doubt many people in england had any idea that there were 2 Bloody Sundays in Ireland and that the first one took place in Croke Park under such horrific circumstances. England have never been humbled and the current generation show no remorse because they are blissfully ignorant to the other side of their countrys history. This is the essence of the notorious English arrogance and the main reason why this Saturdays match cannot shed its political overtones.
Instead of showing respect and remorse all the arrogant English are saying is "its nothing to do with me...I wasnt there in 1920...neither were the rugby team..." you are all missing the point so badly."
You are portraying england and english people as the bad guys who are in the wrong, there was going to be home rule in ireland in 1914, but then WWI got in the way and becasue of the impatience of the IRA they tried the Easter Rising in 1916 which was quickly quashed and which led to the battle for independance, which includes bloody sunday as has been talked to death in this blog. As in this post i have copied it says that england are ignorant of their history, Ireland (well irish people) started the violent uprising, Ireland killed 13 British agents on bloody sunday, everyone seems to forget that, and more importantly this was a very long time ago, and it should never be compared to regime of Nazi Germany, and its just a game of rugby!!!
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Come, come lads. There's no need for all this harsh talk, remember:
Too long a sacrifice
Can make a stone of the heart.
O when may it suffice?
That is Heaven's part, our part
To murmur name upon name,
As a mother names her child
When sleep at last has come
On limbs that had run wild.
What is it but nightfall?
No, no, not night but death;
Was it needless death after all?
For England may keep faith
For all that is done and said.
We know their dream; enough
To know they dreamed and are dead;
And what if excess of love
Bewildered them till they died?
I write it out in a verse -
MacDonagh and MacBride
And Connolly and Pearse
Now and in time to be,
Whenever green is worn,
Are changed, changed utterly;
A terrible beauty is born.
Says it all...now lets enjoy the rugby - as a nation.
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I wonder how those members of the Ireland squad who are British will take to any booing of their national anthem.
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As a proud Scotsman I don't usually say this, but after reading the backward views of many of the posters here...
C'MON ENGLAND.....
C'MON EN..GER..LAND.
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Broxibear, you are a rangers fan so who do you think you are kidding ???? Proud scotsman my a#se...you lot support england no matter what because you have absolutely no sense of your own identity !!! YOU would support anyone who played IRELAND whether it be rugby,football,tiddlywinks or anything else....GET A LIFE WHY DON'T YOU......
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Franco - you are one scarily bitter person. YOU EVEN SEEM TO NEED TO SHOUT WHEN YOU ARE TYPING. :-D Therapy would do you good as well as a history lesson. Your prejudice is blinding your view of history terribly. The Black and Tan were BRITISH not English and as my memory serves me, and others have vindicated here. I thought the officers were from NI and the rank and file from Britain. Therefore, Scots, Welsh AND English. Take deep breaths, count to ten and read all the history books and NOT JUST THE ONES YOU WANT TO READ. Perhaps then the huge chip on your shoulder will be lifted. #What is the line about Saxons in the Irish anthem. What does it say in the Scots. They are all vitriolic you numbty! And stop calling yourself a "Celt". If you read any history you would know you weren't. You are keeping your nation back. Get over it a move on.
Sad so many people show such extreme racism on both sides. This is a game of rugby not a political battle.
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i am going to ignore the political claptrap. This is a rugby match, which Ireland should win comfortably.
The one thing that is noticeable is that Englands two wins were played in a comfort zone in terms of the pace of the game. Scotland gave England far too much space and Italy were too conservative. Neither of these things will happen this weekend. Ireland should start with Neil Best for no other reason than to test Wilkinsons injury-proneness [a few hard tackles will test his body]. Also England are too slow for Ireland and lack the intensity to beat Ireland
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AD.105 ,Our respective bloody histories ????? Exactly how many countries did the IRISH invade and persecute and butcher it's population......erm......NONE !!!!!!!
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RE SEANS POST 95....LET'S GET THIS QUITE CLEAR,THE GERMAN NATIONAL ANTHEM IS GIVEN DOGS ABUSE BY THE ENGLISH AT EVERY OPPORTUNITY,SO LETS HAVE NO HYPOCRISY FROM THAT LOT !!!
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The best Rugby team will win. Then perhaps we can stop clinging on to an argument about whether the place it's played has any significance whatsoever.
Croker is a great stadium, and a real treat is in store for the England fans, win or lose. I had the pleasure of attending an All-Ireland Peile Gael final, and it was stunning.
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To Liam, number 7: just to help you understand mate...THIS IS RUGBY!! Forget your politics and your past and enjoy it, as, I believe, the head article is asking the croke park crowd to do on saturday. Its people like you who cause bitterness at these events by giving them a wider context which they DO NOT NEED!!
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Can anyone tell me when the SOLDIERS SONG has been played at Twickenham ??? Can't recall it.... can anyone else ???
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bernard trumpet post 183....was your poem written by oliver cromwell or some half wit from the b.n.p ?????
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As a GAA fan I look forward to the Ireland England match at my beloved Croker. Nick Swift(206)seems to be anticipating booing of the English anthem. Doubt it very much to say the least. Can't imagine republican extremists ever wanting to go to a rugby match. I have never actually been to a rugby match myself but enjoy socialising with rugby fans in Dublin after internationals. Never any trouble just people out to enjoy the day. The rugby philosophy appears to be similar to the GAA's although you have sadly sold out by adopting professionalism. I was shocked to read that there are only 3 rugby staia in GB with a capacity of over 20,000. I would estimate that the amateur GAA have well over 20 stadia of that size. Anyway enjoy the day and enjoy Croker! Up The Dubs!!
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rugby not politics ??? your post said absolutely nothing about rugby ??? And for your information the majority of the black and tan thugs were english....the pseudo scots in their ranks were of a particular kind i.e. anti irish/catholic violent bigots !!!!!!
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Franco - Scotland (your country is named after an Irish tribe) and N. Ireland/Britain. The 1000 years of invasion till the Vikings came. Ireland's own patron saint was a slave, most likely taken from England. I could mention the acts undertaken in the name of Ireland as part of the troubles but could bring up the big mans invasion of the North in 1922. The killing of "sympathisers" by the IRA pre 1920. YOU ARE NOT A CELT AND HAVE NO MONOPOLY ON "SUFFERING". GET OVER IT! I am finding the rantings of the bigoted, ignorant few tiresome. Please let everybody talk about rugby!
As I said, if you look hard enough in any long history you can find reasons to hate each other. AND YOU HAVE TRIED EXCRUCIATINGLY HARD. But there is much, much, much more that unites us than divides us.
So, here is to a great game and to all the great comments from the rugby loving people on this site!
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Franco - no wonder you are so full of hate toward the English if anybody you don't agree with, Irish, Scots, Welsh or English is English!
Wellington was Irish and with half the British Army during the Empirial days being Highland Regiments there was quite a bit of involvement from the other countries not just England.
So, back to rugby. For my bit, I hope the likes of you are not heard on the day and it is, as all rugby matches should be, a great party atmosphere and a great game. Sadly, I think it will be a party atmosphere but a tight, tactical battle decided by kicks. My original thought was Ireland by 10ish point but a possible England win. The key is: can Englands tight 5 dominate and deprive Ireland of ball for BOD & ROG? If they can they can kick for a close win. If they can't, can they keep out DOG etc.? Personally, it is possible but I think a lapse in concentration will let at least one try in. Thus my original prediction. If the Irish backs run rampant then it will be a bigger margin. Think that's about as likely as England depriving Ireland of ball. With England still tired from the weekend and Ireland as prepared as they should be I am now starting to think they might leak more tries than I thought and am starting to lean more to an Irish win by more points.
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RW 200...That is the whole point that you and others have completely missed....ANTI IRISH RACISM is alive and well amongst a large amount of the english race in 2007....Please stop burying your head in the sand !!!! THEY ARE THE PEOPLE WHO MUST CHANGE TO GIVE THE REST OF US A CHANCE TO GENUINELY RECONCILE !! GOD BLESS.
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Sean 209.Sorry for scaring you and calling people names on the internet is the well known act of a coward and your knowledge is suspect to say the least.Doing a bit of shouting yourself Sean and if my parents are Irish and i'm Scottish by birth then surely i'm of the celtic race....if not then please enlighten me....cheers and god bless.
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Just so you know, Bernard Trumpet quoted the entire Song of Patriotic Prejudice written by Noel Coward (I think) and made comparatively famous by Flanders and Swann. Be offended. Be very offended.
To my delighted surprise I wish to congratulate the vast majority of English and Irish posters on this thread: Well done you good and reasonable people! Of course we've got some maniacs and idiots, but on the whole it appears we are managing to move on from our violent and unpleasant past. The GAA's decision is symbolic of that. I'm glad we have you as neighbours. There is hope!
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Please stop letting Jim Stokes write about Irish rugby. At least 4 of these articles I've had to shake my head. It's not just me, every article there's at least 3 or 4 comments asking what the hell he is talking about. Especially when its not about rugby, some of his comments about croke park were ridiculous. "he hated the english enough for them to name a stand after him"
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Sean m...keep living in your own wee bubble cause you quite clearly haven't got a clue...Ireland with it's climate would naturally have been full of snakes so thank God for St Patrick eh ??? C'mon you bhoys in green at the G.A.A'S holy ground.PS my parents are Irish and i'm scottish by birth so I must be of the celtic race....if not please enlighten me....cheers and god bless.
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Post 223, surely you mean YOUR violent and unpleasant past? Ireland was a peaceful and advanced gaelic/celt civilisation before the invasions of England. All the violence and unpleasantness was brought upon Ireland.
I agree though that we need to move on, and concentrating on the bad times of the past is never a good thing. Being Irish I will admit that it is a difficult thing for an Irish person to do, since we have a lot of history that is unforgettable in many respects. All Irish people ever wanted was to live a free and peaceful existance. Now, I am not sure we will ever have that again.
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I only have two comments regarding the Political issue. This comment being bandied about in relation to OUR bloody past. Im sorry but it is not OUR bloody past as it was the forces of the Empire that came over here took our land, killed anyone caught speaking in our naive tongue and shot anyone that was found to be educating the children of the country. SO what exactly do you think should have happened? Also a lot of people here are commenting on Irish history that shouldnt be, from both sides of the pond and I suggest that both do some reading up to become a more informed human being.
As for the game,,, I think JW will cause a few issues only if we are silly at the breakdown. If our pack hold up (which they will) I think our backs will have too much for England. I think Ireland will run a lot more ball in this game as I think the English lads will be tired after the nonsense of them playing over the weekend. If the English team cant take a leaf from the Irish team then the RFU should take a leaf from the IRFU when it comes to central contracts.
Ireland by 10
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I believe Robert the Bruce led a particularly bloody expedition into Ireland during the middle ages.
Will we Scots therefore be subject to such vitriol when we visit Choke Park next year.
As for the rugby; too close to call but it would appear that the role of favourite does not sit easily upon Irish shoulders.
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Franco - glad to see you start to show some restraint at last. But it was you who called me "ignorant" at the beginning. I was tackling your prejudice with the venom with which you expressed it and make no apologies for that. If more people did you wouldn't be so misinformed. As I said, before you use your mouth, read some history about the Celts and more or less everything you said. As a Scot, with a Catholic chip, you should inform yourself about Scotland, Presbeterianism etc. Where does the sectarian problem in Ireland come from? It's not England. The CoE and Catholic church are so close many priests are still changing. I say that as an English Catholic whose priest is an ex-CoE!
Very, very sorry to those of you who have had to listen to this. Just get annoyed when people, like Franco here, pick and choose history to "prove" their bigotry. When anybody with a decent knowledge of History will see it shows that people are people and do the same things irrespective on nationality or religion. Peace and good will to you all. And may the best team win!
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Some interesting views here, both on the politics and on the rugby. Some of them beg the question as to whether the son can be held responsible for the sins of the father. Clearly that's not the case. So then you look at institutions, and whether the UK government is responsible. That would be down to whether or not you decide that the dreadful acts of Bloody Sunday were pre-planned or not. If they weren't, then it's harsh to blame the government for them.
Whatever, it's clear to me that the English rugby team has and has never had anything to do with the horrible events of back then. If people wish to heap significance onto a game of rugby, then that's up to them but I feel that they are looking for a vehicle for their prejudices.
With regard to the rugby, I feel that Ireland will just have too much for England, though the scoreline will be closer than may think as England are by no means as bad as their results in the last few years have suggested. Let's all get on and enjoy the game, with luck it'll be a cracker and everyone can have a few beers together afterwards as rugby people always have done, and hopefully always will. It'll be a sad day when that can't happen.
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Sean m...I make no apologies for anything i've posted and if you don't think that there is still a great deal of anti irish racism amongst the english in the year 2007....then you are quite clearly living in denial !!!
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Franco,
What is a Celt? The Irish "race" as you call it is a huge mix...Ireland has suffered countless waves of immigration over the millenia, some welcome, some not. There have been the Celts (who are not indigenous to ireland, but originated in E. Europe), the Vikings, the Normans, the English, and our fellow "Celtic" cousins from across the Irish sea...many of whom were probably picts.
I was born in NI of Protestant heritage...I consider myself Irish, would you?
Keith Post 226 have you read the Tain? The Celtic world it describes is not exactly a peaceful or happy one.
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Just to repeat again, the anthem issue is media driven. Remember the hoslitites that existed in the English press before Soccer matches against Germany? Its the same thing. Not really reflective of general opinion.
The Croke Park massacre did happen and their is no point in pretending it didn't. 'Moving on' does not mean forgetting. Still the anthem will be respected because the rugby crowd are generally good folk. It will be big moment for both countries and should be seen as such. Its part of a process.
In any case I was an England V Argentina game in Geneva a few years back and the English Soccer fans booed and jeered all the way through the Argentine anthem. Small minded idiots exist in every country under the sun. Don't let them dictate the agenda, don't take the bait and let the voices of moderation be heard - even if that doesn't suit the media.
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Keith - Thanks for your comments. Just have one little correction. Actually one of the reasons the Angles, Saxons, Jutes and Friesians were invited to England was to defend against the marauding Picts and Irish (amongst others) after the Romans left. The Romans also bought in troops to defend against the Picts, from what is now Scotland, and the Scotti from Ireland. That's pretty well documented, I believe. As I say, you can paint history as you like if you feel so inclined.
As an Englishman of Irish, Scots and Welsh decent I have spent a little time reading about the history of our Islands. The more you read the more you realise how futile (and contemporary) this petty nationalism is and how little vindication it really has in history. There has been constant interchange between our countries for millenia, some by force, some by migration. So, I return, we have way more in common than difference just depends on your disposition which you choose to highlight.
Sorry, again, for history lesson 101.
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The Irish will always hate the English, stop complaining, its never going to change.
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This will be my last ever post on this as it has turned from a place for some spoting banter to a place for absolute idiots to vent their frustrations.
All I will say is that as an Englishman I think it is fair to say that more than 50% of English people would rather not have GSTQ as our anthem. Secondly, history is history, I lived in dubln for four years and met many a true Irishman from both north and south who agree that what happened happened, war is never pretty, as a soldier I should know seeing as I have done 3 tours of Iraq, but it happened in the past, I would never dream of insulting a German or any other nation against whom we have fought. War is, at the end of the day, made by politians and left to decent people to pay with their lives to sort it out so please grow up and take this as the rugby match that it is.
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I think it is over-optimistic to expect Ireland to enjoy parity in the front 5, where I expect the English to dominate, even without the sidelined Julian White.
The English half-backs are superior to the Irish, which heaps enormous expectation on the shoulders of Messrs D'Arcy and O'Driscoll to create magic in the midfield where the English defence is particularly strong.
I feel that the game could be won or lost in the battle of the back row forwards. With the Irish centre pairing as effective as opensides at securing turnover ball, Magnus Lund (and Tom Rees off the bench) will need to have outstanding games to maintain fluidity and allow the English backs the opportunity to function as they have not yet been able. The absence of Neil Best is, in my opinion, an error in Irish selection.
So, England to sneak it, and then thrash France at Twickers!
With regard to the politics, I imagine that, come Saturday afternoon, neither XV will be overly concerned with the actions of their great-grandfathers. They'll probably be preoccupied with winning a fiercely contested game of rugby.
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#37
What right have you got to say it is unacceptable for people born in the isles to say that God Save The Queen is their anthem? In case you hadn't noticed, Northern Ireland is still part of the UK and therefore that is their anthem. If and when the North becomes part of the Republic, then you can impose your anthem on them. So what you are basically saying is that they shouldn't support the Irish Rugby team if they think that GSTQ is their anthem? It is a united Irish team with players from the North in as well. You do your fellow Irishmen no favours with your petty minded bigotry.
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Post 181:
Mr Hogan:
"German atrocities pale in comparison to the colonial oppression dished out by the english"
I assume you are not Jewish?
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Having read the trail of e-mail comments, I have just a few points to mention:
a) Rugby Union and Politics should never be mixed. All sides within the 6 nations can point at each other at grievances in the past. Yes some grievances are significant and involved a significant period of time however nobody should ever be blinkered enough not to move on.
b)As an Englishman I just enjoy watching rugby and if we lose I will happily say well done to any opposition supporters and share a beer or two with them chatting about the events in the match. However over the last 10 years I have started to become tired with the Anti-English jibes from the Scots, Welsh and Irish although often media led I wondered what it would be like if I adopted their attitude. i.e. as long as scotland, ireland or wales lose then I am happy. However I just dont have that attitude.
c) I hope saturday's Ireland v England game is a cracker and hope that the English (or British as it is described in previous posts) is respected. If not, well I guess that just shows that some people cant forget the past and move on.
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guys this is a game of rugby we are talking about,politics imho has no part to play in sport.(regardless of venue) so lets applaud the english team on to the pitch respect their national anthem (as we would accord to any visiting team)and then proceed to beat kick the living day lights out of them.then we can look fwd to murryfield and hopefully another triple crown
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Stokes yet again stirring things up. You quite clearly have no allegence to green jersey because any article you have ever written has always been anti Irish rugby and in particular anti southern Irish rugby which pretty much sums up the 91热爆 as a whole. As for giving the English team a standing ovation, NO NO NO.
I cant even imagine why you would suggest such a thing what are they doing that deserves a standing ovation??? Yet again Stokes you have shown where your true allegencies lie, and Im sure you will give them your own special standing ovation that is if you can see them from the terrible views as you have previously described Croker as having.
So in future no more crap articles and suggestions please!!!!
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yeah but England don't have a national anthem. GSTQ is the BRITISH national anthem and the Queen is the queen of britain and not england! so why should we play it?
And all English people remember you won't have your tanks and guns this unlike the last time you visited Croke Park
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with regard to the post no 237 liam posted "the irish will always hate the english" well im IRISH and proud of it. but i certainly do not hate the english.so please do not equate all irish people as being likened to your hate filled, narrow minded, blinkerd view of all things english. come out of the ether!
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So it's racism when the English talk lesser of the Irish but the other way round is to be expected because of History. I think there's a few people on this blog that need to take a long look in the mirror and learn to grow up. I'm looking forward to a great game this weekend and I'm sure it could go either way, but hoping that the English will just edge it.
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The athems will and should be respected.........on a lighter note maybe they can do what a pub in Edinburgh does, turn down the sound down and play Theme tune to Eastenders.
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I think it is really sad that people are going on about an event that happened 80 years ago. Yes what happened was shameful and there was loss on both sides, but these guyson the pitch were born in the 70s at the earliest/ that is 50 years after it happened.
Why should they have to carry the sins of people generations ago who were not related to them what so ever.
The media is hyping this and everyone is taking the bait.
Forget it, sing both anthems, play the rugby, get the result and move to the next stage of the compeition.
Dont ruin what will be a great match.
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Well,no suprises from Eddie on selection.I feel this was a chance to give Boss more playtime at test level and hone a partnership with O'Gara.Against England,the exclusion of Simon Best is a more fundamental error as he was the man to quell Wilkinson.Dempsey has nothing more to show while Murphy, although occasionally suspect in defence, is a game breaker and Trimble has another dimension to Hickie.
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I am Jewish.
GOD SAVE THE TEAM is what the English should be singing.
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To Ben
You cannot change how history has shaped a nations feelings toward other nations. Majority of the Welsh, Scots, Irish do not like the English because of recent troubled history, fact. The English do not like the French or the Germans and so on and so on.
As a Welshman--- C'mon Ireland, i hope you win at Croke.
It will be a very close game i reckon but the Irish will not make the same mistake as the French game. However , if Wilko is injured, the back line will suffer and you will be soundly beaten.
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paddy 81
This is a bbc website why not post your views on some other board if you find the bbc so repellent. By the way, i am irish, and would like to acknowledge that we would still all be living in a bog were it not for the english. Fact.
The germans, the japanese, have managed to forget what happened 50 years ago..but some of my 'victim' countryfolk are still bleating on about something thay happened 100 years ago...move on and grow up.. your views are an embarrassment to modern ireland...we don't hear the english demanding apologies for the terrorist attrocities they have suffered at the hands of so called irishmen in the much more recent past. and BTW it was our fellow irishmen who shot into the crowd and not the english but don't let the facts get in the way of a good whine.
Ireland expects.
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237. Dream on or come back to earth!!!
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this is great fun!
I hope the game is half as lively as the blog
As far as anthems go - do you really think the teams care?
to be honest professional sportsmen don't care about history, the songs or even (heaven help us) the fans.
they care about winning
and remember the irish don't hate the english - mostly we pity you for not being born Irish - but it's not your fault.
I for one was delighted the English cricketers finally beat the Aussies with a little help from a Paddy.
So what to say - come enjoy the game, have the craic and party on! regardless of the result the english rugby fans are great and love coming to dublin.
it's only a game, right?
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God save the queen was played 3 years ago in Croke Park and there were no complaints... it was for the special olympics...
Its rugby what happened on bloody sunday was terrible what happened over 800 years was terrible. What will happen on Saturday will be a game between two neighbours who have had there differences and by close of play Ireland will come out as winners...
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Can anyone redirect me to where the rugby is being discussed - I seem to have arrived at some half arsed political debating society.....God Save Ireland........and the Queen......and Me.......and anyone else that needs saving.
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I can't understand the people that insist on saying Stringer is a better option than Boss. Lightening pass??? Maybe 2 or 3 seasons ago, but I can't be the only one that's gotten frustrated watching him flapping his arms at referees at the bank of rucks rather than trying to dig the ball out and getting it away like he should. I think Boss gives us many more options because of the physicality of his game. In one of the posts someone blamed Boss for O'Gara's abismal place kicking against France. What????????? The blame for that is firmly at O'Gara's feet (pardon the pun) and I seriously hope it's one area that he's sorted for Saturdays game.
Sad to read abount Jason Robinson and Jonny Wilkinson being injury worries for the weekend. Mainly because I believe Ireland have what it takes to win this game with them in the side.
I also agree that it's going to be difficult to keep the politics out of this game, but I believe that Irish and English rugby fans alike with afford both sides the respect that they deserve.
Looking forward to a great game. C'mon Ireland!!!!!!!!
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Im looking forward to the game, but quite frankly bored with all the history and all the talk of its significance. I am first and foremost a GAA fan. It matters more to me that Meath beat Sligo on Saturday than Ireland beat England.
But I want to enjoy the game and athmosphere without all the painful past dug up again and agan. Its time to move on.
quite frankly I dont care what anthems are played, they could have Foster and Allen singing some awful crap from their repetoire whilst dressed as leprechauns for all i care. And they could sing God save the Queen by the Sex Pistols.
Im well aware what happened in 1920 in Croker. So ok when the games over can we all agree that the terrible past can be laid to rest. So we can move on together and let the past be the past. Is anyone else tired of letting 80 years old storeys dicate our future.
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Enda (and others) - thanks for your comments. Very much appreciated. May the best team win on Sat! And without offending Sligo fans, hope you have a good result too! Always heartening to hear people who have got their priorities right. Sport first, history later. :-)
To Celt, how many years is recent? 90 years or are you talking 300 or 700?
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Yes this has become a boring political debate when it should be about Rugby.I was born in England of Irish parents and am aware of the history.I will be watching the game in Huddersfield Irish Centre with English and Irish alike and a good time and plenty of beer will be enjoyed by all.
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Oh sod the anthems and the historical crap. Im a West Cork boy from Michael Collins country and I say "play ball".
The buildup with all that "historical" stuff will last 5 days. The singing will last 5 minutes. The inevitable 25% of the crowd will boo through GSTQ.
No big deal.
The real deal is in midfield. I'm looking forward to seeing Andy Farrell being tested at last. I'm hoping Jonny W and Jason R are fit and play. We (Irish) want to flatten the full England IV . . . no White Shirt excuses.
Regardless, no way will France beat Ireland in the WC, as long as we have BOD and D'Arcy fit, which we should. Ireland for the Final.
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Danny Boy - another great comment. Thanks for putting it all into perspective. A few more should follow your lead!!!!
My only objection comes from my nationality. I, obviously, want England to win but would settle for a good performance given our recent past. But seriously hope for a great game to promote the great game!
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What's happened to my friend Franco? Has he gone away and started to read?
Sorry, I am just teasing. Get back I miss you!
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WHY CANT WE ALL JUST GET OVER THIS SHIT AND MOVE ON!!! YOUR IRISH ANCESTOR RAPED AND PILLAGED AND TRAPPED PEOPLE INTO SLAVERY!! MY ANCESTOR RAPED AND PILLAGED AND PUT ENGLISH BLOOD INTO MANY AN IRISHMAN..... AND WE ARE ALL THE BETTER FOR IT!!!
PLAY BALL!!
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Well it is certainly better to vent here than at the match. With Wilko out I fancy the Irish by 20pts. With him in it will be an either way game. This is probably the match for Ireland to prove they had the ability and should have won the slam and also for England to prove they have turned a corner completely. Looking forward to it
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My 2p's worth:
Stringer and O'Driscoll back is a huge boost for Ireland. BOD will be gagging for action in this game after missing France. Ireland to have too much for England in the backs, are set to gain parity in the front 5 (despite all the talk of the Munster vs Leicester game) and Wally and Leamy to have the edge in the loose. Ireland by 7 points.
As for the politics, yes we all grew up in Ireland with this history in school and it's a huge part of our identity and the way we think. However, this is not the forum for it and I don't believe in holding latter generations responsible for events that happened before their time. 6N matches are great occasions wherever they're played and I've had great craic with (whisper it quietly!) England fans after previous encounters. I'll happily respect the English anthem, as ours gets respected at Twickenham and I'll try and save enough breath to get through our multiple songs!
Just enjoy the match and smugly buy any disappointed England fans a G&T or 2 after game... :-)
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Maybe we should leave it to a Frenchman
Apollinaire said 'Come to the edge'
'It's too high..'
Come to the edge
We might fall..
Come to the edge
So they came..
and he pushed them..
and they flew
Love for each other will set you free
Come on Ireland!
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Tiocfaidh 谩r Triple Crown........
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As an Irishman I can only hope that for once we can be positive about this and put sport before tribe.
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I have a question to pose to you all.
If any past Irish patriot, honoured people like James Connolly, Padraig Pearse, Michael Collins stood side by side at the top of the Hogan stand watching the match tomorrow, how would they feel?
Notwithstanding present political work in our fourth green field and all our hopes for that, I suggest that they would feel that tomorrows event, not just the game, is a manifestation of everything they wanted to achieve. They would feel proud their that country is alive, prosperous, vibrant and sovereign and would say to themselves ...Job done!!
Let the English play their anthem, win the match, if they can. We'll shake their hand at the end. It will never change what we were, what we achieved and most importantly, what we are now. That is, a nation. A nation founded on our terms.
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Was planning to pop in for a bit of banter about the match but it seems my fellow Irish folk are yet again harping of bygone days. Yes it was awful, blah, blah, blah.....some of you sound like a bunch of moaning victims that have spent far too much time gathering "facts" of history and regurgitating gripes about the English that you have over your beer.
Get over it and talk about the rugby.
Come on Ireland!
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Ps. As this is the 91热爆 website, I am guessing that a fair pcercentage of the Irish victims in here live in England....you know who you are....if the English are so awful, apologies for the cliche, why don't you all jump on the pane home?
This Irishman is very grateful to England for giving me a life that I could never have had in Ireland.
Oh, and about the Rugby, Ireland are going to trounce England. We have far too much class and the team is settled. England are now without Robinson, although Strettle is very dangerous and it's looking like Wilkinson will be out, or at least won't be able for the full match. I think the Irish team is just about right, apart from I cannot understand why Eddie keeps picking Easterby over Best.
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It is nothing short of pathetic that there are people in Ireland moaning about GSTQ. It is a sad reflection on the Irish Media that they have chosen to dig these bog monkies out of whatever featureless kip they come from in Ireland and give them voice. To all English readers I feel it is important to point out that these people barely make up enough numbers to be a minority.
At the end of the day Irish people share so much in comman with the English. We have many shared interests, shared culture, and like many of the same things such as our taste in music, food, sense of humour etc.
This weekend we get to share one major interest and that is sport. Like the teams the fans will also respect each other wholeheartedly. And that mutual respect is what the media and all of us should have our interest in.
What happened in the past should stay in the past. Every person and every country have acted terribly at some point in their existance (and will continue to).
When you stack up these two teams against each other then you have to go for Ireland. They are a more settled team, have greater ability out wide, and are fitter/better rested than the English. But the English are capable of brilliance by their fantastic ability to believe in themselves. Something all irish people can learn from if I might add......
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Terry Doyle,
nicely said.
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As an Irishman living I completely agree with post 271. Please stop bleating about the past and welcome England to Croke Park with pride. I've taken some abuse from my mates at the local rugby club over the last few days and keep on replying "oh I think it will be a close game". But what I'm really think is if Ireland click they will soundly beat a limited England side. In order to put my money where my mouth is I just popped out to Ladbrokes a put a tenner (last of the big spenders) on Ireland by 16-20. Great odds at 9/1
C'mon Ireland
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I agree with 269 (Terry Doyle); what an opportunity. Croke Park's a magnificent stadium and the Irish can be proud to show it off to the world. I'm English, went to school in England and I DID learn something about Irish history; I've grown up knowing about the crimes of British governments of the past and rather liking Ireland because I know that the majority of Irish people are tolerant, decent folk who want to get on with their neighbours and make a success of life. It's a shame to see a few halfwits trying to drag them back into the quagmire of the past.
Perhaps after the game both teams could unite for a session of tackling practice against the whingeing bigots that seem to want to spoil it for the genuine rugby fans.
As for the result, too close for call, but I think Ireland should win if they spread it wide. If it ends up in a Wilkinson vs O'Gara kicking contest, England will scrape home. Now just hope that Wilko's fit.
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Peace brothers and sisters! (you know who I mean).
There was this Irishman and an Englishman standing next to each other at an Ireland vs England match. They exhorted and applauded their teams, cheered and groaned and sang until they were hoarse. After the match they went for a drink together, relived the highs and lows, told jokes and anecdotes that made them laugh until the tears ran and generally put rugby and the world to rights. Finally, well-oiled they shook hands and parted on their ways home.
How mad is that! What could they have been thinking of?
My heart says England, my head says Ireland but here鈥檚 to the hope that whichever side wins they both play rugby to tingle the spine and stoke the story-telling of a wonderful contest.
Mine鈥檚 a pint.
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People are to quick to go for JW ahead of ROG - time and time again RoG has been questioned and more often then not he has come out on top - Munster v Sale, Munster v Leister and Munster v Leinster but to name a few. ROG has turned into a world class player and will be up for anything that Bilco sorry Wilco has to throw at him
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I have to say (being English) that I shouted like a loon when France went over in the last minute. One of my all time favourite rugby moments.
I've nothing against the Irish -- nothing at all - but the current Ireland team seems to have this very phoney humility surrounding them. Either be arrogant or don't be. No point in pretending. There's that very famous saying that seems to fit here: 'Don't be humble - you're not that great.'
All this talk of anthems and the like...Who cares? Why drag up so much messy past. Nothing to be achieved - if anything you just upset yourselves.
The chances are that Ireland should win tomorrow. I think Robinson being out is a major blow to England but if I went mad when France stole the game I hate to think what I might do if England nick it.
Should be good though.
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Nah,Seany boy I just couldn't type anymore because I was still splitting my sides laughing re your freudian psycho analysis of my posts none of which incidentally you actually adressed properly.I still stand by them because they were predominantely about the here and now and verifiabley true. Hope Ireland give John Bull a good hiding tomorrow...toodleoo
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Arse 272 said...These bog monkies...This was the kind of racist poison that regularly featured in magazines like Punch in the 18th and 19th century and still spews from the mouths of cretins like him.Get back to your sewer arse !!!
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Franco - I am pretty sure I didn't do any analysing. You said I was ignorant of history and I answered all your questions about the English with historical incidences that disproved your theories. You have remained silent. From that, I have to assume you were..... lacking in historical knowledge about a subject you professed to be an "expert" and which underpinned your arguement. You made assertions based on history, I rebutted them. You failed to reply. ergo you were wrong. Apology?
Your right, phrases like bog monkies etc. is unacceptable. Hurling insults is the last resort of an empty mind. But then, using biased, uninformed history to justify your prejudice is the first resort of a bigot. :-) Try typing "Scotti" and "Were the peoples of Britain and Ireland ever Celts?" or similar into your web browser, you'll be surprised. I've not checked but read quite a bit about this so knock yourself out. Most scholars believe they never were. Ask the Curator of the Museum of Ireland. :-) So, before making historical assertions, check your history. Have a great weekend and keep reading. Love and hugs. :-D
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You disproved nothing.I never asked any questions about the english.I stated that most of the black and tans were english which is correct and as for the celtic question...you said most scholars believe...yes it's theory which niether they nor you can prove as 100 per cent fact.Now try and address the most pertinent point which you have conveinently avoided...There is still in the year 2007 a great deal of anti irish racism in england(and scotland too)Go on son,knock yourself out.
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And there is a great deal more anti-english racism in Ireland, Scotland and Wales.... as you are NOT "Celtic" then maybe this is the shared culture you imagine?
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Just because they dislike your odious arrogance does not make them racist...have a little think about how the english regard the french,germans and just about everyone else in the world..tim nice but ...
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This thread was quite amusing up to a point. Now it's just very sad...
My girlfriend is from Italy and naturally doesn't really understand the game at all. I used to take pride in telling her that whatever went on on the pitch, afterwards you could turn around and shake hands with the other team's fan standing next to you.
And now I read this rubbish.
Anyone with any political views about this game, take them, along with all your half-baked, unworldly generalisations and disappear to your ignorant little villages wherever they may be and stop wasting perfectly good technology to talk utter utter rubbish.
It's a game. Grown men chasing a ball. Let's not forget that.
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Ignorant little villages...these people just can't help it.It's that odious arrogance again....
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One hour to go folks! Raining here in Dublin. Hope it doesn't ruin the match. Just want to make a point to English people after reading a few of the sillier posts on this. There is very little anti English racism in modern Ireland. Most of us regard England as a friendly neighbour and we don't blame English people of today for the Bloody Sunday atrocity of 1920. I will be extremely surprised if your anthem is not respected. Enjoy the game. Hope you lose!!
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Outplayed, outclassed - well done Ireland.
Maybe this destruction will quieten down the nonsense that England were going through a renaissance. You met a real team, and were destroyed. Accept this graciously.
And to think England, only a few years ago, had the arrogance to suggest they were above NH level and should play only against the SH teams - HAH !! Welcome to the harsh reality that teams ebb and flow, just like England.
If only Ireland played like this against the French - we could seriously challenge NZ with this display.
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What a wonderful Irish performance to mark a wonderful occasion. Almost totally ruined however by those two so called 'commentators' arguing like schoolboys (again) throughout the whole match. Isn't it time that the 91热爆 found someone better than Butler and his very impartial?! sidekick, they are getting more and more annoying with each game....come on 91热爆 sort it out.
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well lads , we won hand over fist and well done to the irish all said it was a very good game and the best one .up the irish and we are so proud of you all.
fantastice brillaint amazing. sorry for the english but because fo history well its a plesure and a one up on ya lads although i know thats not what the spoty is about deap down its a victory to us for all that was lost !!!!!!!!
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Have to agree a very good Irish performance, to be honest i don't think England played too badly, the english pack where outplayed, defensively, the back division did pretty well... what let us down was the foundations mainly the front 5..... But i do have to say the referee was one of the best that i've seen in the 6-nations so far... why can't we have more of these type of referees across the board.. terrific, Courtney was beyond belief in the Italy game, i'll be amzzed if he officiates an amateur game again, let alone an international...
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Great performance today by all 82k at Croke Park plus the 30 men who crossed the whitewash. In fainess Brian Moore got it right. Ireland won beacause they are the better team. From 1 to 15 they were superior. It bodes well for Irish Rugby that we have, at last, a team that is balanced and contains strenght in depth. Just look at those who did not make the 22.
As someone who was lucky enough to have played in CP a number of times the whole occasion today, left me with a glowing sense of pride to be Irish. It was a fantastic occasion as well as a great team performance.
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Franco - you talked about being a "Celt" and that you had to be, being a Scot from Irish heritage. The fact is, nobody ever referred to the peoples of Britain and Ireland as Celts, not themselves, the Celts of mainland Europe or the Romans. There is records showing this! Geneologically there is no evidence either. Studies in Wales etc. showed this. Ergo, they were never Celts. The whole "Celtic" thing is just a way of saying "we're not English" and in itself racist. You made assertions of the passive nature of the Celts/Irish. I illustrated numerous points in history that showed this was not the case. You called me historically ignorant. Apology? My understanding was that the officers of the B&T's were N. Irish and the rank and file were "British". The fact you classify anybody Scots/Irish you don't accept as as "English" (see your earlier post) is a problem in your classification, not my history. :-)
Finally, you state an obvious English anti Irish/Catholic vein. I am an English Catholic, of Irish extraction and I can say my religion and background has never, ever been mentioned in my life, except with Scots and Irish. Liverpool has two football clubs of similar history to Glasgow, but nothing like the sectarian history. Scotland and Ireland have a sectarian problem, not England and Wales! I went to Catholic schools and happily mixed with friends from CoE etc. It has never been a problem or even mentioned. I have to admit a growing anti "Celt" feeling within England. But it is a direct result of the continual abuse of the rabid anti English xenophobia of significant sections of the "Celtic" nations that you opitomise. Most English people, like me, have decendency from all of the British Isles. But they are starting to get sick of paying for the "Celtic" nations who just vent their anger in return. Scotland and Wales have been net recipients of taxes for 30 years now and even Ireland, as the greatest recipient of EU funds per person, had effectively recieved money from "Britain"/England, which has given more to the EU per person. So, effectively the Irish economic "boom" is English funded.
The Scottish claim to "Celtism" is even more laughable. The south of Scotland (where 80% of the population live) was inhabited by Saxons at the same time as England! The Saxons had huge tracts of land in Scotland at the time of the Norman invasion. Which the Scots also willingly accepted. De Brus and Balliol (sorry the Bruce) vindicate. It's one of the reasons lowland Scots so freely partook in the Culloden. Check your history!
As I stated at the beginning, inaccurately portraying history to justify your prejudice is wrong. History is complicated and shows that if you can you will. Everybody is as bad as each other. Accept it, move on and get those chips of your shoulder!
Congratulations to Ireland on a great victory today and thanks to the Croke crown who did themselves proud. All the best to you!
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The chips fell off while I was jumping up and down cheering during the demolition.....but unfortunately they were picked up by an english lad who started shouting his mouth off about us supporting them(Ireland).He was told to sit down and be quiet but he just stormed out the boozer...shame....toodleoo.
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The chips fell off while I was jumping up and down cheering during the demolition.....but unfortunately they were picked up by an english lad who started shouting his mouth off about us supporting them(Ireland).He was told to sit down and be quiet but he just stormed out the boozer...shame....toodleoo.
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The chips fell off while I was jumping up and down cheering during the demolition.....but unfortunately they were picked up by an english lad who started shouting his mouth off about us supporting them(Ireland).He was told to sit down and be quiet but he just stormed out the boozer...shame....toodleoo.
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Franco - Thanks for you rebuttles and apologies. Next time you throw around prejudice and insults you should perhaps start from a more informed stand point. As one of your greatest country men said "there is no sin except stupidity". Think you should book the confessional. :-)
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