Clubs facing tough choices
- 13 Feb 07, 11:18 AM
London - Hands up who would like to be filling John Fletcher鈥檚 shoes this morning?
In case you don鈥檛 know, the Newcastle director of rugby is facing a massive dilemma as he prepares for his side鈥檚 crunch game with high-flying Bristol on Sunday.
Does he pick star fly-half Jonny Wilkinson for the trip to the Memorial Stadium or give in to the request by the Rugby Football Union and leave him out?
It鈥檚 a tough choice.
Now, this all stems from to bring forward the team announcement for the game against Ireland on 24 February in the hope that the starting XV will be rested by their clubs this weekend.
For England鈥檚 management this seems like a logical request as their players are not guaranteed a break when league action resumes this weekend.
And while Ireland have two clear weeks to rest, recuperate and prepare for the clash in Dublin, England鈥檚 players could be battering the merry hell out of each other for their clubs.
Although the plea has been made with good intentions, some teams will find it easier to implement than others.
, for example, are currently fighting for their lives in the Premiership and are third from bottom, just eight points ahead of basement club Worcester.
Every point is vital to their chances of survival so the last thing they need for the daunting Bristol trip is to be without their talismanic half-back Wilkinson.
They have already suffered enough by having the 27-year-old on the sidelines for the best part of three years so to be asked to omit him when he is fit and playing well must be even more galling.
And who would have thought that former Falcons boss Rob Andrew, now England鈥檚 director of elite rugby, will be the man making the calls to club bosses to try and twist their arms?
When at Newcastle, Andrew robustly dismissed similar pleas from England management to rest players, so you can understand if some club coaches tell him where to go.
Newcastle are reportedly ready to play Wilkinson but were remaining understandably tight lipped when I tried to speak to them on Tuesday morning.
This problem is not solely Newcastle鈥檚 however, as England are particularly concerned that players should not feature in the three Sunday matches.
So as well as Bristol and Newcastle, Saracens, Gloucester, Wasps and Sale also face a difficult choice.
For a club like Sale, who have such a bad that coach Philippe Saint Andre must be tempted to get his boots on again, the prospect of leaving out flanker Magnus Lund and wing Jason Robinson is just unthinkable.
There are obviously clubs, however, for whom playing some internationals this weekend will not be a problem.
Wasps, for example, supplied four players last weekend but Tom Rees and Tom Palmer only came on in the last 15 minutes.
And coach Ian McGeechan said: 鈥淪ome of our players will be returning refreshed after a week鈥檚 rest, some will feel tired after the intensity of international action.
鈥淥thers involved in the Six Nations may have had comparatively little game time, we have to look at each player鈥檚 needs individually and be guided by what鈥檚 best for them.鈥
This week could be a pivotal moment in the lengthy, protracted and frankly dull club versus country row and is a real test of the thawing in the relationship between the two sides.
Meanwhile, Ireland coach Eddie O鈥橲ullivan must be looking at the difficulties facing opposite number Brian Ashton and allowing himself a wry smile.
Wales 27-18 England
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Well I believe that it is Key to rest players, although there are valid arguements for playing them especially in Relegation strugling sides. The RFU has made English Rugby a joke as this should of been solved before the Autumn Internationals. On the Johnny Situation, I think he is a key part of the setup and should be rested especially after really just coming back from injury. And I am sure this arguement will bring up the case of the Burnout.
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Simple one for me, the clubs pick the players they want. Andrew can't have it both ways.
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for reasons such as this the rfu need to bring in central contracts. that way they could decide who does and does not play. it works in cricket. however until this is done the clubs pay the players so they should be allowed to decide.
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why is this even an issue??
ALL ENGLAND 22 should not play club rugby til after the 6N
if this was in place we'd still have Dan Ward-Smith
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Agreed. I feeel sorry for Brian Ashton, but Rob Andrew would be a hypocrite if he expected teh GP teams not to want their players back
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Matt (post no. 4)
This is an issue because the clubs pay the players' wages. Pure and simple.
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What about the fans of club rugby who dutifully support their clubs and pay the players wages. I don't want our players out for the whole time the 6N is on. The answer is to perhaps stop the whole league while the 6N is on. Juggle the fixture list, drop the EDF cup and drop the Prem down to 11 teams. That would free up enough time to fit the games in.
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England is entirely hamstrung untill this situation is resolved.
How on earth can we expect to win games with such limited preperation?
Untill the RFU sort out central contracts we are tying one hand behind our players backs and handing the advantage to other teams.
Whatever it costs the RFU we must get central contracts and a wider system in place that rewards clubs handsomely for providing England with the players it requires for as long as England requires them.
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Dai - it works in cricket? Are you sure.
Vaughan & Freddie constantly injured. Anderson, Lewis, Pietersen flew home because of injury. Geraint Jones on a central contract and Nixon (36 years old) makes his debut.
Oh - and we lost the Ashes 5-0 !
And this is without the players ever playing for their County.
Do you really want Leicester, Goucester, Bristol, Wasps etc. to become the non-entities that is County Cricket.
Yes, there needs to be a balance but rugby is in a much better position than both football (where the club has all the power and the players dont care about playing for their country) or cricket (where the England boys play for Team England and couldnt care less about their counties).
I would much rather Rugby remained in the middle ground with a difficult compromise that benefits everyone.
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I think the decision should be made on a player by player basis. The great JW has not had much game time and could do with another run out to gain that edge. Others may be carrying injuries, such as Mike Tindall, and will probably be unfit anyway.Those fit should not play unless they need time in the middle. While I appreciate the dilema this puts clubs in, the big picture needs to be England's improvement towards the World Cup.
Who arranged these fixtures anyway? They should be shot!
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This isn't about what Andrew wants - he did right by his club and now he's supporting Ashton trying to do right by his country. This is a huge problem in English rugby and central contracts need to be brought in as a matter of urgency if this England side is to have a real hope of revival.
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Dai - it works in cricket? Are you sure.
Vaughan & Freddie constantly injured. Anderson, Lewis, Pietersen flew home because of injury. Geraint Jones on a central contract and Nixon (36 years old) makes his debut.
Oh - and we lost the Ashes 5-0 !
And this is without the players ever playing for their County.
Do you really want Leicester, Goucester, Bristol, Wasps etc. to become the non-entities that is County Cricket.
Yes, there needs to be a balance but rugby is in a much better position than both football (where the club has all the power and the players dont care about playing for their country) or cricket (where the England boys play for Team England and couldnt care less about their counties).
I would much rather Rugby remained in the middle ground with a difficult compromise that benefits everyone.
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The clubs should rest the players.
The future glory, prestige and financial independance of English Rugby is dependent on the national team being successful.
The current rise of popularity of the game is because England are world champions, not because a club earned scored a penalty.
The clubs need to accept this and allow the England XV to rest and with the announcement of the World Cup Squad, agree to Central Contracts
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Isn't the whole idea of playing for your team a great way of preparing for the bigger stage.
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The clubs should rest the players.
The future glory, prestige and financial independance of English Rugby is dependent on the national team being successful.
The current rise of popularity of the game is because England are world champions, not because a club earned scored a penalty.
The clubs need to accept this and allow the England XV to rest and with the announcement of the World Cup Squad, agree to Central Contracts
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There are times when players need continuity of games to build / maintain their match fitness and confidence. Some players may wish to work out some of the lethargy / bad game they had against Italy before the Ireland match. Coming to a few days of England prepartion on the back of a "Good" game could make all the difference.
Given that they are all professional players, they do not have any other work commiments I feel it could be left to the individual players and their clubs to decide on whether or not they play this weekend.
I would not be surprised if Jonny Wilkinson wants to play this weekend, not just to support his club but for his own fitness and match sharpness. Given the strength of the Newcastle backs if Flood is available it may not be so importnat for wilkinson to play. Jonny might just be needed for half a game?
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I have a great idea. From here on in we shall start to refer to Wilkinson as Wilkinson instead of Jonny which is overtly-sycophantic, childish and ill mannered. I suspect Wilkinson himself is has equally embarrassed by this over familiarity from people who have never met him.
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A compromise should have been worked out long before we reached this point. England annoucing the team so far ahead is just a stunt to put pressure on the clubs. Do England even know the fitness of Tindall and Balshaw for the Ireland game in 2 weeks time?
A good compromise would have been for England to be able to ask each club to rest up to 2 players.
Leicester - rest Ellis and Chuter but Deacon, Corry, White would all be available
Wasps - rest Vickery and Lewsey but Palmer, Rees, Payne would all be available
etc.
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Surely it's about competing with the other nations?
With the current set up, England are at a distinct disadvantage before they have even walked onto the pitch.
The solution? A moratorium on the starting England 15 (preferably all 22)playing club rugby during this time. Of course clubs should be adequately compensated financially for this. With the money, they can then maybe invest in some other quality players.
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Prior to the 6N many people suggested that Wilko needed more games under his belt before playing for England, on that basis he should play against Bristol,also the Falcons are fighting a relegation battle
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Players need rest periods not a week off between matches. Given how little rugby Jonny Wilkinson has played I can see no reason he would not player, or would not want to.
Kevin Pullien on Football showed that teams who have rested generally lose their next match more often. Ditto when the team who had a semi final started winning the Zurich premiership. Now whilst the players will not play with each other they should not be rested till after this intensive period is over.
One can be too clever and the weak minded coach will always favour resting people (Duncan Fletcher) but it does not work. Better to give a 4 week rest period than try to snatch a pointless week's rest in a run of games.
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I believe JW should play for Newcastle. It will make the trip to Bristol even more enjoyable for the fans who pay for premiership games and expect premiership players to be there.
After 3 years on the sidelines he needs as many matches as possible and the Bristol game will only enhance his preparations for the following weekend(provided he can stay fit for England)
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Matt is exactly right - a compromise should have been worked out long ago. It is unfair to ask clubs to rest players for key games with relegation or silverware on the line, but it is also unfair to ask Brian Ashton to work with one hand tied behind his back in comparison with Eddie O'Sullivan for the Ireland game.
Both the clubs and the RFU deserve blame for failing to resolve this. teh clubs need to understand that in rugby union (as in cricket) the health of the game flows downwards from the national side, and the RFU need to understand they are borrowing other people's assets.
My solution - scrap the Anglo-Welsh cup, reduce the Premiership to 10 (won't happen) but have the RFU pay the clubs to use their players to help bridge the revenue gap. You could then have a break in the league season during the 6N to put the England team on a level playing field with well run teams like Ireland
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would it make sense to have it written into contracts, or a simple agreement, that any player who plays x amount of an international cannot play club rugby for a set period of time and the RFU pay the clubs for this to be written into contracts.
e.g. a player plays 60 minutes of an international and so, by default, cannot play club rugby again for 10 days (or a sufficient amount of time to be able to recouperate).
this would stop the problem we are facing at the moment.
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Personally I feel all the squad should be rested, we don't want a repeat of Dan Ward-Smith.
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England expected all their players to play during the autumn internationals outside the agreed window.
However when they have a hole in their schedule they ask it the other way round, don't play the players.
The players are all professional, aks them! Everyone goes on about how Jonny Wilkinson should be rested. What deos he think, he has played 2.5 matches in 3 months, he may actually feel he needs game time on the pitch. Players expect to play every week, they train to play every week.
Yes players might get injured, they might get injured playing for England, they get injured training, they run that risk every time they play for whoever. Is everyone seriously suggesting that we don't play anyone picked for England the week before a test match, prehaps it should be 2 weeks, maybe 3. Why not take it to the extreme and only let them play for England and not for any club.
The RFU spends it's life putting pressure on the clubs, milking the money from England and passing the minimum it can onto the clubs, and expects them to tug their forlocks every time they speak.
It is no good for the clubs when England do badly, but when they do well, the RFU takes the money and the credit!
I say let the players and their clubs talk to each other and decide.
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Why have the clubs agreed to play fixtures at this time anyway? It would be better for everyone (including the spectators) to have a weekend off, wouldn't it?
As for some of the players mentioned, I'd give JW a rest as I don't know if playing each and every weekend is the best (for Newcastle's longer term) for someone back from a period not only of injury but also inactivity. But I'd play Robinson as Sale gave him a rest ahead of Six Nations.
I do however agree that, if England do well in this year's tournament it is the clubs who will, ultimately, benefit - it might then be in their best interests to support the England position this weekend on two fronts.
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It is all very well saying rest the players. Newcastle is close to relegation. If they do drop what will Wilkinson, Tate, Flood and Noon do? It is inconceivable that Fletcher would ignore the risk. Flood makes a competent No 10 so rest Wilkinson and play the rest.
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Two points need retifying here: 1.) If Dan Ward-Smith had not been playing premiership rugby he would now be playing for England... What do you suggest then, that he dosent play club rubgy at all? He could of easily of got injured in a period not in the lead up to an international series and even more importantly - IF HE HAD NOT PLAYED FOR A BRISTOL TEAM ON THE RISE HE WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN PICKED FOR THE ENGLAND SQUAD IN THE FIRST PLACE! And on your logic (Matt), Leicester have now lost Lewis Moody to injury due to England playing against Scotland.
2.) In answer to 13 - The reason England won the world cup is a huge result of the clubs taking English rugby kicking and screaming out of the amateur era after the RFU sat by and refused to do anything when the game went professional - if they wanted to they could of sorted out the structure in 1995 but they decided to do nothing. As a result club owners stepped in and pumped money into the game. Club rugby does an awful lot to promote rugby and fan numbers had been rising even before the World Cup success and still will after England fail in France due to the hard marketing by clubs and the huge success that Guinness Premiership rugby (and Heineken Cup rugby) has become in its own right.
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There is a point being missed here - if England insist on making players miss club games during international periods then where is the incentive to produce English players for future England teams? If you look around the Premiership you will see that there are more and more foreign players in the league every season. The last great bastion of producing English talent that is Newcastle have decided to change their policy recently and are looking at bringing in more antipodean and South African players instead of producing young English players as they cannot risk losing future Wilkinson's, Flood's and Tait's for what amounts to more than a third of the Premiership season. More foreigners means less game time for English qualified players as well as fewer numbers to choose from.
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I, as an unbiased Irishman, think Wilko should play for the Falcons.
They pay his wages and most importantly, for them to risk relegation and the financial perils that go with this to satisfy Englands need to have him fresh for Ireland doesn't hold. If he's fit for England, he's fit for Newcastle.
If he gets injured with Newcastle, then that's the rub of the green.
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When will the RFU and clubs open their eyes?
You only need to look at Ireland, Eddie O sullivan has two weeks with his players now in order to prepare for croke park, England have one day if players in the team/squad play at the weekend.
The all blacks are reportedly on a world cup conditioning camp away from their repsecitve clubs, they are also being rested from the early stages of the super 14's.
When there is such a huge gulf in the way teams prepare we cannot expect a team that meets one or two days periodically to then come out and produce the goods. I hate to say it but England will severley struggle against Ireland not through lack of committment but because they have not trained enough together to gel etc.
If this continues we will be very lucky to make the quater finals of the WC.
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Surely it's in England and Newcastle F's best interest to give JW as much game time as possible given his lack of match practice. I can understand concerns about player burn out but why do we need to treat all players exactly the same? The individual club and contracted player should be left to agree between themselves when to play and when to rest.
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Just as an aside, three Scotland players, Leicester's Jim Hamilton, Sean Lamont of Northampton and Gloucester scrum-half Rory Lawson have all been prevented from joining Scotland's get together in Edinburgh.
According to Premier Rugby, English-based players, no matter the nationality, have to return to their clubs in the fallow weeks of the tournament.
Scotland coach Frank Hadden is fuming.
By the way, Newcastle are due to name their team for the Bristol game on Thursday, so Andrew has two days to work his magic.
And it was quite interesting to read Martin Corry's comments in the Guardian on Monday.
He said: "To have a round of club games sandwiched between two Six Nations games is hardly the ideal scenario for those of us personally involved.
"Leicester are playing Worcester at Sixways, an important game which affects both ends of the table.
"We cannot just ignore the people who, as Josh Lewsey put it on Saturday night, put the bread on our tables every week."
It is quiite obvious that the players are being placed in an impossible situation.
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The situation has been made more farcical by the announcement today that non-English internationals who play for English clubs must report for duty with their clubs this weekend. However the English RFU expect the clubs not to play English internationals.
This harks back to the 1970s and 1980s when England, despite having by far the biggest rugby population, were unable to select a team which was competitive. B Ashton and his cronies must be very afraid of the lack of depth.
No other country in the Six Nations has their main league fixtures during these few weeks. As some of the previous posters have said the whole period needs to be made an "international window" - perhaps the cup competitions could be played during this period.
Some posters have referred to the central contract system in cricket. This does lead the individuals to play insufficient county cricket, there is no doubt about that. Apart from the current tour, where the problem has been more of a selectorial system (Duncan Fletcher makes Andy Robinson look sensible) the general consensus is that the use of central contracts has been a success for English cricket.
Having said all this, I would identify myself as a Scot - but one who supports England at cricket!
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Unfortunately money is the controlling factor of sport in this country. Football, cricket, rugby, no matter the sport, it's all geared towards healthy profits. We don't seem capable of looking at the bigger picture. Cricket - we win the Ashes because of the central contracts given out, we applaud you for this, however as soon as we reap the benefits of this i.e. beating the Aussies, what do we do? Sell all coverage to cable tv. All the commotion and coverage the sport generated by such a triumph disappears vertually instantly as people haven't access to the game.
Rugby - we win the WC, fantastic, do we build on this? No, the RFU (apart from this year) sell our right to watching our national rugby team to cable TV, sound familiar. The RFU do not own the Enland players contracts and because of this the players are forced to play the most amount of games per season in world rugby. Player burnout, fatigue and injuries plus poor preparations all become a majoy negative factor. All because of the determination to make the Guiness Premier division the biggest league in rugby. It all starts at the top and if the higher echelons of any sport have only money as the prime directive then the game as a whole will suffer. Thats my opinion anyway.
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Most of the comments I am reading have supported the clubs or the players making a choice whether someone should plan in the 'fallow' weeks or not. Yes, all of this should have been sorted out but it is not the RFU we should blame it is actually Premier Rugby Ltd. They delay any talks that the RFU want to engage in with the deliberate tactic of leaving any decision as close as possible to the time of the match, therefore meaning no decision is possible. After being involved for more than 5 years in elite rugby in the UK, England has to come first I'm afraid (no cake and eat it too in elite sport...!!) Here's my solution:
- central contracts controlled by RFU
(they pay the salary and take the hit when the player is injured - eg with Wilkinson; Newcastle would be circa 750k to the better....). The clubs will get an instant 2-3 million to their bottom line profit,
- players play 10 internationals and 15 club games per year (there are restricitons on when this can be i.e. not during 6 nations),
- players all must be made available for club finals/play offs,
- all fitness, strength and conditioning programmes are managed centrally at Twickenham.
Note for everybody - the players cannot be involved in setting their own programmes. Understandably, they want to please everyone and in doing so they play far too much and place unwanted pressure on themselves by constantly playing when they are not fit. Like us all they need the money! Let's protect them from themselves - this is not football....!!
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It is incredibly frustrating that the Premiership Clubs do not understand that the current England team need to spend as much time together as possible in the final run-in to the World Cup.
I appreciate that some clubs are in relegation battles or struggling with injuries but this is for the good of all of English rugby to bring these players together - after all, it is the clubs who will also benefit should we perform well in the World Cup.
Clive Woodward definitely saw the benefits of being given the players by the clubs in the run-in to the World Cup and if we are to get ourselves out of the mess from the Autumn, we need the clubs to help as much as possible.
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I as a biased Irishman think Wilkinson should play for Newcastle, and those England players who are not playing for clubs playing on Sunday should be loaned to those clubs.
Come on guys, Ireland has an advantage with centrally contracted players, pure and simple. There is no way that O'Sullivan would tolerate any of his players playing for clubs / provinces six days before an International.
However - Ireland has seen its club rugby scene suffer. Irish club rugby was never about provinces before central contracting, but about real clubs - Shannon, Young Munster, Constitution to name but three - and not Munster or Leinster, which as provinces met once or twice a year for novelty inter-pros, a kind of 'pick your favourite fifteen' kind of thing that generally is th preserve of fantasy rugby web sites and sportspersons of the year type events.
Today, you'll see the Irish line-up of players having two 'clubs' beside their name - Ronan O'Gara, Munster / Cork Constitution, for example. When was the last time O'Gara lined out for Con? I have no idea, but I wouldn't be surprised if he hadn't played for Con in two or three years.
And that's the price you pay. The Magners League, Munster's version of the Guinness Premiership, is often used to test new players, to blood them, and to rest the front line. It is not taken seriously. This is in part because the financing sructures of the game are different, and while the Premiership in England represents the core source of income for English clubs, income is divided in Ireland between the Heineken Cup and the National Team (effectively).
The exact same problem is in place in France. Of course, the French are light years ahead of England right now, and one can ask why this is, not having the excuse of club vs. country to fall back on - so instead of pointing to Ireland and saying if only we had centrally contracted players we'd be great, look at France, and ask yourselves why you are where you are, and why they are where they are.
Just some food for thought.
Still bitter about Sunday.
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Fletcher should understand the importance of Jonny to England and should rest him and play Flood at fly half.
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I think instead of complaining about the club vs country rule we should really stop all leagues games during the 6N
Im scottish and im annoyed that we have lost 3 of our players but these things happen. I fully expect the clubs to play there players as THEY pay the wages and not the RFU or the SRU yet.
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Why don't they ask Wilko, surely he knows better than any1.... Leave it in his hands. He can ask for advice from whoever he wants but ultimately why can't we let him make the decision himself?!
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Slightly off topic but having read earlier that 3 English based Scotland players will be turning out for their clubs this weekend (to the anger of Hadden). I was wondering whether Eoin Reddan, Geordan Murphy (forgive me if I have neglected anyone else..) would be turning out for their clubs this weekend?
If not, why? Do they have a clause or which allows them to miss these games during the 6N? If so, how did the Irish manage this but the Scots are unable too?
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how about the union ussing some of its much talked about money to compensate the clubs, say 10% of every
english available players pay, up to 70 or even 100% for those who play and train for their country, and take that cash OFF THE WAGE CAP so quality replacments could be bought, meaning bigger squads for teams with england players who would then naturaly be rested more through the season but play in the tougher matches like cup finnals and semies their stronger squads would reach
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Why don't they ask Wilko, surely he knows better than any1.... Leave it in his hands. He can ask for advice from whoever he wants but ultimately why can't we let him make the decision himself?!
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What would really help England rugby (both club, country, fans and individuals) would be if the powers that be made the 6 Nations a continuous 5 week competition with no fallow weeks. This would keep the WHOLE of England happy and united - by removing fallow weeks it would remove the potential for disagreement and ill-feeling. It would also definitely give the clubs and fans their best players back asap. At the end of the day, it's the TV rights that are having a massive influence on this ongoing fiasco...
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Why don't they ask Wilko, surely he knows better than any1.... Leave it in his hands. He can ask for advice from whoever he wants but ultimately why can't we let him make the decision himself?!
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Let Wilko decide! He's old enough to make a decision like that, he knows his body better than any1 else...
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I agree with Tom (8). Central contracts would bring us into line with countries such as Ireland and New Zealand. It is not an answer to everything and won't make us World Champions again in itself, but will certainly prevent this merry-go-round every tournament. Getting rid of relegation would enable clubs to plan for the future without the financial threat of relegation and would hopefully encourage a more ambitious attacking philosophy rather than the approach of "Don't lose" because we could get relegated. Whilst lower league clubs may complain about not being able to be promoted, the best players would get contracts with the premier league clubs and the only people who would lose out are those who want to turn rugby into a money-making machine like football with no soul. This really needs to be sorted out as soon as possible and not with some sticky plaster that will hold for the next year or so. It needs to be permanent!
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Although I have a vested interest as I have tickets to the Bristol v Newcastle match that doesn't hinder my belief that JW & the other England players should play their club matches this weekend. I think it outragous that premiership managers should be put into such a position in the first place. They know their own responsibilities for their players and game selection, and if they happen to be carrying an injury, they are likely to be rested or benched by their club anyway.
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When your predicament is so poor that JW will probably be the difference between losing and losing with a bonus point, perhaps we should be asking JW if his future should really be at Newcastle.
On the issue at hand though my experience of watching returning internationals is that they find it dificult to slot back into the styles and patterns of their clubs for one-off games.
Bath for example will be playing Borthwick and Short and would probably want them to get game time together for the remainder of the 6 nations period rather than play Grewcock for one game. Lee Mears however could probably do with a proper runout.
Bottom line though, its got to be sorted otherwise RFU and PRL with both be losers (along with the players and fans).
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i think the main point here is not about jonny wilkinson playing for newcastle when an england game is on the horizon. 3 scots are not being released by their english based clubs in the build up to scotland's match against italy, is this fair? would it happen if the roles were reversed and has it ever happened in recent memory? Sean Lamont is being held back by his club & james hamilton both of whom are starters for scotland and without any bias probably lamont was the best winger in the 6 nations last year. take a step back and stop going on about jonny wilkinson. hats off to the lad for everyhting he has acheived. by the way, the try against scotland from ur jonny, it wasnt, and thats fact. So play jonny for newcastle, chances are he ll just break again.
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The whole structure of the season needs looking at. We should block competitions into specific periods. Maybe something like: Autumn internationals first 3 weeks, then League for next 24 weeks, Heineken Cup for next 10 weeks, and finally 6 nations for the final 5 weeks.
Each competition has it's own time and space, and is not impacted by anything else.
Is this not similar to New Zealand? Without looking at it indepth, do they not play: Super 14, then Tri nations and finally NPC. I might be wrong and apologise if I am.
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I agree with many of the comments. However, we do have to appreciate that this is not football. Rugby is a much harder game where the body is put under massive strain. To compete at a peak level players have to be centrally contracted. This affords them the time to recover fully from international matches which are faster & harder then club level. Their training can also be timed correctly so they are peaking for big tournaments.
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What a shambles. Why are league matches scheduled during 6N. They aren't playing club rugby in France or Magners League this weekend. You must encourage league teams to produce English players but they wont do that if the players are unavailiable for long periods of time. Is it true less than half the registered pros in Premier league are foreign?
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i think the main point here is not about jonny wilkinson playing for newcastle when an england game is on the horizon. 3 scots are not being released by their english based clubs in the build up to scotland's match against italy, is this fair? would it happen if the roles were reversed and has it ever happened in recent memory? Sean Lamont is being held back by his club & james hamilton both of whom are starters for scotland and without any bias probably lamont was the best winger in the 6 nations last year. take a step back and stop going on about jonny wilkinson. hats off to the lad for everyhting he has acheived. by the way, the try against scotland from ur jonny, it wasnt, and thats fact. So play jonny for newcastle, chances are he ll just break again.
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Rob Andrew cannot refuse to release players for international duty and then expect clubs to automatically do it for him.
As mentioned the clubs pay the players wages and for some clubs like Sale and Newcastle, the players in question are vital to their cause.
Plus it is vital game time for someone like Wilkinson to play, rather than rest for a week. I can see the club's reluctance to rest players adn think it is justified.
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1. We need central contracts as rested rugby players are a pre-requisite for success.
2. When Rob Andrew was asked by mad Robbo to rest Newcastle players 2-3 years ago, he gave the RFU the finger.
3. In the current situation, can Newcastel risk relegation? Probably not.
Truly on the horns of the dilema - which will be sorted out on time honoured fashion in favour of the clubs until they are forced by central contract to recognise that without a buoyant national set up, the premiership would/will wilt ont he vine.
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Lets be sensible about this. Some players need a club match this weekend and some don't. Lets sort out a decent compensation system so that Brian Ashton can withdraw up to two players per club for each weekend of club matches during the six nations. There should also be compensation on offer to clubs when players get injured when involved in international matches. Johnny should play this weekend, as should Martin Corry who was below par against Italy. Some of the others could probably use a weekend off and it should be Brian Ashton's call. Didn't SCW say the same in a recent newspaper article ? What is the position with Perry Freshwater, I guess he's gone back to France ?
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You pay the fiddler , you call the tunes !!
They are employees of the clubs and they currently can do what they like and if I was a Director of a club that needed a win I would play my best team and would have every right to do so.
I'm not saying i agree with the above scenario but its fact and the RFU are depending on good will from the clubs. Not sure the Clubs bank managers will exercise the same good will if they are relegated and the sponsorship and gate receipts drop off.
The only way that the RFU can make demands is if they have control of the players which will mean a massive change in the structure of the game . Judging by previous blogs on the subject of central contracts I'm not sure if there is any route to an agreement and there are some strong opinions in both camps .
All I know is that I want to see the best prepared England side when they step out at Croker !
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Who has supported Wilko the last few years and paid his salary...Newcastle. If he wants to play he should play, England simply should not come into the reckoning. At another club three years injured on his salary might have meant the door, they have shown loyalty to him and they deserve to have some use of his considerable talents.
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Whats all this moaning about it being crucial that England spend plenty of time together before the World Cup? The simple truth is that come the end of May they will have all the way till the World Cup finishes in October to hug and bond as a unit. It should be pointed out that the clubs will not get access to any England players from the end of the season till the end of the World Cup. It's that simple and they can tour the Southern Hemisphere in the summer and get into peak form.
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The clubs pay the players. It is up to them whether they play. Until the RFU compensate clubs for their England players this should not change.
Why should club fans not get to see their best players week in week out?
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The people who pay the bulk of the wages should decide. Given that Wilko's been cabbaged for a good few years and hardly seen the inside of a Newcastle jumper then it's not unreasonable for the Falcons to want him to play on the rare occasions when he's actually fit.
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Am I the only one fed up with hearing how central contracts are essential and it's only the money grabbing club bosses who are the problem?
Thank god for the club bosses it's them who are protecting the game for the real fans who watch their clubs not just glory hunters going to twickers once in a blue moon.
Yes the season needs restructuring, so that the league can shut down during the 6N, but until that happens why should I get a sub standard product for the money I've paid out.
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Is this a good timer to mention the All Blacks ? they have a set season for the super 12's (or 14's as they are now),then then play the Tri-nations. This makes it much easier for people to follow, and removes any club v country issue. Something must be working for them as they are a touch better than us .......
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i think johnny is a big part to the england set up and therefore is huge for Newcastle and this is a tough match against ,top of the league, Bristol. I think Newcastle should choose to start with Toby Flood at fly-half and maybe bring Wilkinson on for the second half or part way through the second half.
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Now,I do hope that the English clubs will play fair. If they release an English player then they better release the Scots, Irish and Welsh too (and any French).....of course they will - won't they?
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A number of postings have drawn attention to various ways of improving
the balance between the club versus country argument.
Central contracts, training together to promote greater understaning,
reduce the premiership to 11 teams.
Crazy idea, combine them.
The RFU hold 40(?) central contracts and play the squad as the 12th
team in the premiership.
When Internationals come around the only 'club' affected is England Rugby.
The 6N window could then be eleven weeks with only one fixture per club affected
The squad would then train and play together often enough to actually
play as though they know one another.
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The English situation cannot even be compared to that of Ireland and New Zealand. It's all well and good talking about the RFU controlling the players and dictating when they can and can't play, but the long and short of it is that the Irish and NZ clubs know at the start of the season exactly which tournaments they will be playing in the following year. Turning round to the likes of Wasps, Leicester and Sale and saying we want you to risk not qualifying for the Heineken Cup but we don't really want to have to fully reimburse you. I can't tell you exactly what it is worth to these clubs financially, but I would imagine the extra season ticket sales and the match day ticket revenue more than pays a few of the players salaries. The fact that Sale have already lost a substantial number of players to injuries sustained in pointless friendlies that serve little purpose other than to line the RFU's pockets, should further back their case to select Robinson and Lund. And the likes of Leicester will possibly feel that after several years without any notable success, that they owe their massive set of season ticket holders a return for their loyalty. Obviously we already know that JW is being rested, but I would like to see all the other sides select whoever they want and not feel any pressure to rest anybody.
Side point: if there must be games during the 6N breaks, why are they all not played on a Friday night or Saturday. Do the people who scheduled the three Sunday games claim to have any semblance of intelligence. They really are living proof that 'Common Sense' is the definitive oxymoron.
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No question in my mind. Falcons MUST play Wilko, he is our player and we need him for our survival.
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50 >>They know their own responsibilities for their players and game selection, and if they happen to be carrying an injury, they are likely to be rested or benched by their club anyway.
You seem to have great faith in the GP coaches/selectors.....and besides the bigger issue is the risk of injury DURING the GP games (or are they such lightweight games that the risk of injury is minimal?)
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At least the Falcons are showing sense with Wilkinson - why oh why can we not have the same set up as the Irish as regards Internationals?
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Why should the rest of the six nation rest while england lose half there players to meaningless priemership matches?
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In a local paper, Dean Ryan has stated that Gloucester will play their International Stars. He says he will play whoever is fit and I agree with him. Apparently the Clubs suggested not playing any GP Rugby during the Six Nations block, but the RFU turned it down. I call this just desserts. For Glos and Sarries, both play-off contenders, this match is far too important to pander to Ashton's whims.
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As some of the posts have said, surely its a matter of getting the right fixture list. League games then cup games, autumn internationals and then 6N not - neccessarily in that order. In interviews the players always cite how difficult it is to switch from internationals to club games. The fixture list needs to be reduced generally say by scrapping the stupid play off system and the RFU needs to give more to the clubs.
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Surely the central problem here is not whether or not these players should be rested or not, but the whole structure of the domestic and international game in England
Whether the RFU like it or not, the Premiership is a huge success, with the old established clubs such as Leicester, Bath, Gloucester etc being joined by a new generation of successful teams (Northampton, Sale) who were initially bankrolled by their owner, but who have, through the increased popularity of the game and astute marketing themselves, developed their own fan base and who have become largely financially self supporting.
This situation has arisen despite the fact that there exists, not just for the 6 Nations but also for the Autumn internationals, a clear clash of interests between club and country when the clubs are required to play competitive league fixtures on the same weekends as international rugby.
If we want success for the England team AND a hugely competitive and successful club structure, then surely, some 12 years after the game went professional, its time for club and country to dismantle entirely the current fixture list, and start over, firstly and most importantly, by ensuring that there are no fixture clashes between international rugby and the domestic league/heineken cup.
To do this would probably mean scrapping the EDF cup (a waste of time when you have the heineken anyway), limiting the league to 10 teams, maybe redesigning the structure of the heineken cup to remove some of the teams (there are currently quite a few makeweight clubs for whom the second tier competition is probably a better option) and hence reducing the number of games in that competition, restrict the number of autumn internationals to 3, and play the 6 nations over consecutive weeks.
Less games, no conflicts of interest, and yet we maintain the successful club structure and fans get to see the top players.
Surely this is the way forward?
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Another Tiger Fan,
I couldn't agree more, but unfortunately the RFU isn't blessed the the brain capacity to reealise that these are the clubs who provide them with each generation of England players.
However, one slight mistake in your post.....Based on how long the clubs have been in existance, should it not read:
Whether the RFU like it or not, the Premiership is a huge success, with the old established clubs such as Sale, Bath, Gloucester etc being joined by a new generation of successful teams (Northampton, Leiceseter).
Just a thought!
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Maybe I m just a tad sensible but to be honest I think that the six nations would be a fantastic opening to the season rather than something to be accomidated in the middle when vital players for clubs would be injured for the run-in .
Five weeks of back to back International
rugby in decent conditions so we see the best skills on display . Plus Injuries could be compensated by the relevent Union .
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Central contracts with England controlling the players?
As a Wasps supporter I only have to look at what England did to van Gisbergan. He was the country's outstanding fullback for 3 years, and when he was taken into the England setup they immediately tried dismantling his game. It took him nearly 6 months to get back to his best.
No what needs to happen is a sorting out of the northern hemisphere season, in a way that isn't dictated by the needs of the southern hemisphere.
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