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The Catholic Church investigates the Catholic Church, and guess what, things have improved but we could do with more faith...and the Vatican is in the clear! One thing that concerned me about the Visitation was that Cardinal Cormac Murphy O'Connor was part of the team. His record on dealing with child abuse in his former diocese of Arundel and Brighton has been questioned. There is evidence that he failed to act appropriately when dealing with paedophile priests, so is he in a good position to judge others? This short report by Angus Stickler makes chilling reading:

/radio4/today/reports/archive/features/paedophile_priests.shtml

newlach -

...is he in a good position to judge others?

And what makes you think that you are in a good position to judge others?

On the "Estate thread" you set yourself up as a judge of other people - on the basis of a moral authority, which is, frankly, a complete mystery.

"It must be stressed that dissent from the fundamental teachings of the Church is not the authentic path to renewal."

So never mind how the individual components of the church behave - child rape, mental torture of young children - these admitted evils should on no account detract from the fact that failure to 'believe' in the overall package will result in utter annihilation of the soul - in Hell, no less.

So it's up to *you* - you who have been abused - to overlook the human failings of the component parts of the Church and concentrate on the bigger picture. You must still *believe*, otherwise - well, you ain't seen nothing yet.

What a charming institution the Roman Catholic Church has become. What a boon Christianity has been for humanity.

newdwr54, post 3,

"What a charming institution the Roman Catholic Church has become."

At the risk of depressing you further, read how they are going after the organisation that represents many abuse victims in the US, legal guns blazing:



And while we are on the Vatican, here is a story about how JP Morgon shut down a Vatian bank account:



With a billion a year passing through it and the account being emptied to elsewhere every day, now why would anyone think of that as potentially suspicious?
LOL, the Vatican gets a lesson on transparency of their business practices from a big bank. :D

Peter Klaver

I could not access the first story you linked to, but I could the second. Sadly it seems that the Vatican is not obliged to answer the questions asked, so will it just find another account with another bank that will ask no questions for at least 18 months before taking effective action? When the Pope visited Britain it cost taxpayers millions, well, it would seem the Vatican's finances are in better shape than Britain's!

Here is a depressing story from the Netherlands concerning "serious and shocking" allegations that boys were castrated on the instructions of Catholic priests. One man has claimed that he was castrated when he reported that priests were sexually abusing him.

/news/world-europe-17453849

Three old men.

I was just thinking about the physicist Richard Feynman's comments regarding uniforms as I was re-reading the thread here: I was looking at the picture of the three old men above.

Feynman believed that a uniform was used as a disguise by a man to project a false air of authority. The real man is just the timid, naked thing underneath. So what we have in the photo above is three old men sitting up there dressed in disguise to give an illusion of authority.

Take away the uniforms. What do you have? Three old men. Three old men who believe in the authority of, ultimately, a ghost.

It's this illusion of authority that gives churchmen of all persuasions their power. But underneath, the 'emperor' is well and truly naked - even a child can see it.

newdwr54 (@ 6) -

Take away the uniforms. What do you have? Three old men.

Got a problem with age, newdwr? I wouldn't want to think you are guilty of ageism, now (to rival newlach's tattoophobia). Given that the youngest person in the photo is 52 years old, then I assume that you dismiss the views of anyone of that age or older. Good, I'm glad you pay no attention to the stuff Richard Dawkins and Daniel Dennett come out with - clearly "old men" with just "an illusion of authority".

By the way... how old are you?

Three old men who believe in the authority of, ultimately, a ghost.

Supporting evidence? (Don't make assumptions about what other people believe, otherwise Peter Klaver will call you "arrogant" - assuming he's in an honest and morally consistent mood).

It's this illusion of authority that gives churchmen of all persuasions their power. But underneath, the 'emperor' is well and truly naked - even a child can see it.

Oh no. A child couldn't see it - he or she is too busy being brainwashed by those nasty "religious" people - if your unsupported assertion on the other thread is to be believed (not that you bother to provide any evidence for this, despite being challenged and reminded about it).

(By the way... on the subject of uniforms, I assume that you will be campaigning for the police to dress in casual wear from now on? After all, we should go with what Feynman said, shouldn't we? : a uniform is used as a disguise by a man to project a false air of authority.)

Tim Stanley in the Daily Telegraph has a good post on the Dutch castration story

Key bits from the summary of the report on Church for me are, the reference to dissent and how this isn't the way forward, failure of Catholic education and need for lay people to do their jobs in the public sphere.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Cardinal Brady seems to believe the fiction that he is the leader of the Catholic Church in Ireland. He should look again at the Code of Canon Law (there are some good things in there too): the Bishop is supposed to lead his Diocese and the Parish Priest his Parish.

Cardinal Brady does not have the intellectual brilliance of Rowan Williams. Who cares?

Cardinal Brady does not have the spiritual depth of Rowan Williams. Who cares?

Cardinal Brady does not have the common sense of Rowan Williams. That's the problem. It's smart to go when the game is up. Even Bertie knows that.

After listening to today's edition of Sunday Sequence I think alarm bells will be ringing with everyone who wants to see children fully protected. Although a 200 page report was produced, it was made available only to the most senior figures in Catholic Church. Not even a bishop who appeared on the programme has seen it, but a priest who has seen one part of the report (and who was not named) described the part he saw as a "devastating critique" of the Church which is not reflected in the summary.

Cardinal Brady made it clear that he is not for resigning, and the extent of the fury expressed by listeners who contacted the programme on this point was, I think, without precedent. Of course I will not discuss why people might so strongly object to Brady's leadership of the Catholic Church in Ireland for fear that my post will end up in the reject pile.

I think Cardinal Brady should resign for a number of reasons, not least because he is permanently tainted over the Brendan Smyth criminals acts.

From good sources I have heard the report was a devastating critique of the Church, but not in regard to child abuse issues but other issues. Anyone who is familiar with Catholic education over the last few decades will know that it has been a disaster in passing on religious education. The Alive-O programme is a laughing stock and there is nothing in secondary schools. The so called well educated laity know hardly anything about the faith and that fault lies with the bishops who have allowed the programmes to continue despite all evidence of their failure.

The bishops as a group have failed to give leadership, or even speak out, on a whole range of issues. Please don't flood me with comments when I say this, but the roll-over of Catholic bishops on civil partnership was a disgrace.

Just one remark about the physical separation of seminarians. I think a lot is being made of something which should be clarified. I attended a conference in Maynooth last year and you could wander round unhindered past the seminarians bedrooms, into their bathrooms, their TV room. It's really a question of privacy and space. Lay students who live in halls or hostels or houses don't have strangers or other students wandering around - really that's what it's about in Maynooth - the buildings which used to be for their use are now swamped with outsiders.

@8. Fionnuala,
You might want to check out this article related to the subject:

"Hare, hunter, field 鈥� Castration for deviancy"
GEORGE CONGER

Excerpt:
"An article entitled "Eugenic and sexual folklores and the castration of sex offenders in the Netherlands (1938鈥�1968)" published in the journal Studies in History and Philosophy of Biological and Biomedical Sciences, Vol. 39, No. 2, June 2008 by Theo van der Meer states that castration of sexual offenders was part of the Dutch state's eugenics program. Pedophiles were castrated to prevent them from re-offending as were those adjudged to be mentally deficient."

Full Text below:

mscracker, post 13,

As a Dutchman I was shocked to read your post quoting the bit about a government eugenics program in the Netherlands. But then I read the page it was quoted from, and then read some of the journal paper that page is about. It would appear a most disgraceful attempt at Catholic pr spin after the scandal about castrations of boys in Dutch Catholic institutions. Did you read the article? From the bit you quoted, I strongly suspect your post was no more than an ignorant parroting of some very distasteful Catholic spin.

For starters, the castrations of 400 or so sex offenders that did take place, were voluntary according to the article. True, some doubt is expressed about certain cases as to whether they were 100% voluntary, but the doubts not are not very specific.
Voluntary agreement to castration by convicted sex offenders is rather different from young boys being castrated by the Catholic church to 'cure their homosexual tendencies', isn't it?

Even more disgraceful is the idea that mentally deficient were castrated as part of a government program. There is mention of that in the article, but that refers to the situation in 1930s nazi Germany (see e.g. page 200), for goodness sake! On page 201 it states about the situation in the Netherlands

"Surgery was not recommended in men under the age of twenty five and in persons suffering mental disorders (primarily schizophrenia) or who were very resistant to the surgery."

Your post reads very much like a bad-smelling 'Them too!' defense. Did you read even a single page of the journal article from which that dreadful bit of Catholic church excusing was constructed?!

And since this thread is about thr Catholic church, I might as well 'do a newlach' :) and point out this article about the Catholic church snatching babies:

@14. PeterKlaver,
I looked at the journal article briefly but will go back & look again.
Here in the US, numbers of individuals were sterilized,most without knowledge or consent,right up through the 1960's. I don't think it's unique to any nation or culture.

@15.PeterKlaver,
I looked again & the article-a PDF-does not appear to be from a Catholic publication.Perhaps you may have more knowledge of the author, but I don't see a connection so far:


"Eugenic and sexual folklores and the castration of sex offenders in the Netherlands (1938鈥�1968)" published in the journal Studies in History and Philosophy of Biological and Biomedical Sciences, Vol. 39, No. 2, June 2008 by Theo van der Meer

The article above states a majority of castrations were performed after the war,I assume WWII.
I think the point of the author who provided the journal,and who is featured through a Catholic educational site,is that there is strong evidence castration was practised in Holland but so far not hard evidence it was practised outside of mental institutions.
And again, America has a long history of this for eugenic purposes.We are in no position to be self righteous.

@14. PeterKlaver
PS: I saw this also through a link :


"Dutch bishops react to report of castrations; commentator offers context '
March 22, 2012


"Reacting to reports that ten boys were castrated in Dutch Catholic psychiatric institutes in the 1950s, Eric van den Berg, who runs the Catholic internet portal katholiek.nl, notes that electroshock therapy and castration were 鈥渘ot uncommon鈥� forms of treatment for homosexuals under the age of 21 in the Netherlands. Some 400 men were castrated in the Netherlands between 1930 and 1968, when the practice ended.

鈥淭rue Catholics and Protestants 鈥� were against the castration practice,鈥� added van den Berg .

鈥淚f these stories, as they now appear in the media, indeed are true,鈥� the Dutch Bishops鈥� Conference said in a brief statement, then the incidents are to be 鈥渟trongly condemned and mourned.鈥�

Again, I'm not Dutch, though a couple of ancestors were, & am not expert on Dutch history.You are surely in a better position to research the background on this but I think there's more info needed to put it all in context.

mscracker, post 17,

"I looked again & the article-a PDF-does not appear to be from a Catholic publication.Perhaps you may have more knowledge of the author, but I don't see a connection so far"

My criticism of doing a very distasteful Catholic pr spin is not aimed at the author of the article, Theo van der Meer, but at the guy who wrote that page on the 'education' website, George Conger. It does seem like nothing more than a dreadful 'Them too!' diversion attempt.

mscracker, post 18,

Fine for the guy who runs that catholic internet portal to make these statements, but please read the article about those 400 cases of castration. According to the article, these were cases of convicted sex offenders and the article also states that operations were not recommended for people under the age of 25. So the journal article and the statement by the catholic internet website guy are in disagreement.

And call me biased if you will, but I tend to take the word of the journal article author over the catholic website's guy.

@20. PeterKlaver,
I think there are a number of persons in disagreement on this topic & hopefully presenting more information from differing sources will shed more light.I have to wonder as well what constituted a sexual offense during that period of time.
Again, here in the States we had decades of sterilizations carried out on the poor, racial minorities, the mentally disabled, etc. It's a disturbing history & many facts are still just coming forth.

Will, extraordinary that the Bishop of Dromore on Sunday Sequence hasn't seen a copy of the Visitation Report and yet he's expected to somehow implement. Did you get from his tone that he was less than happy with this situation and with Cardinal Brady for blocking access to it?

Since the Catholic church is so resistant to letting priests marry, how is this for a proposal for 21st Century priests. How about all new priests submit themselves for the painless procedure of chemical castration, as a mark of their commitment to the Church, their spiritual marriage to Christ in their time on earth, as what would be an outward avowal of celibacy and chastity? I would have thought it a very solemn, very sincere declaration.

Oh hang on, I forgot. That would diminish desire wouldn't it. It's not supposed to be nice and easy. You're supposed to be sorry, in perpetuity, for your natural urges. There wouldn't be nearly enough hand-wringing without the old cojones. But then again, it wouldn't be easy, would it. What man doesn't wince even at the thought of how we treat male calves?

Just a thought...

Not much thought went into that thought, AboutFarce

I thought it might separate the men from the boys, Fionnuala.

Cardinal Brady intervenes in fresh controversy surrounding priest who showed gay porn images to a group that included a child.

/news/uk-northern-ireland-17582542

Tyler Durden got his memory stick. Again. I'm sorry, but LOL!!!!