91Èȱ¬

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I think he is right. They should foot 50% of the bill.They should also have their control of schools removed. I mean, can you imagine any other organisation publicly indicted for outstanding cruelty to children being allowed to still run youth organisations and educational establishments.
I notice that a lot of the comments on this blog have been about child sexual abuse but the Ryan report covered the whole sadistic spectrum including, concentration camp style beatings, starvation, financial exploitation, and psychological abuse. The Irish Times summed the whole thing up as torture and slavery. When you add to that the churches continual denial and obstruction ( the first chairperson of the investigation resigned in 2003 because of the lack of cooperation) then I think that some sort of retribution is fully justified.
I would also support the idea of a memorial to those who suffered, so that future generations would know what had been done.

I'm sure that those victims who have received or will receive financial compensation for the abuse perpetrated against them will find the payment helps in some way to address the deep wounds caused by the abusers. (Unfortunately, it is too late for those people who committed suicide or who are too frightened/broken to step forward and apply for compensation.)

However, the real issue for most of the abused is to see that the Catholic Church has put its house in order - which can only come from the top - and that it finally acknowledges its part in denial, cover up and protecting offenders. (They are still refusing to identify offenders.)

I dont know how to put a link on here (maybe someone would be kind enough to do it for me) but on 91Èȱ¬ iplayer you'll find yesterday's broadcast of the 91Èȱ¬'s The Big Questions.

Five minutes into the programme you will here Fr John Owen, the Catholic Press Officer for the Diocese of Cardiff claim that "Most of the abuse was committed by homosexuals."

Have a look at Colm O'Gorman's face and the reaction of the studio audience and you might get some idea of how it felt like for abused people to listen to such an obnoxious comment coming from a man who is in such a high position in the Church.

In the face of such obtuse denial and guilt transference which is obviously still alive and well in the Church, money just doesnt enter into it, no matter how large a payout.

I'd write to the Bishop of Cardiff and demand this odious man's resignation but what would be the point? It was the Bishop who made him the Press Officer for his Diocese in the first place. That says it all...

#3 - RJB - "In the face of such obtuse denial and guilt transference..."

Guilt transference

I like that expression. I think those two words sum up and describe more aptly than any other phrase everything that is wrong with religious fundamentalism, whether of the Catholic or evangelical flavour.

Hello romejellybean,

"I dont know how to put a link on here (maybe someone would be kind enough to do it for me) but on 91Èȱ¬ iplayer you'll find yesterday's broadcast of the 91Èȱ¬'s The Big Questions."

If you look at the program via 91Èȱ¬ iPlayer in your web browser, it will show the url in your browser. Select and copy that text, you can then simply paste it into the comment box here on the blog. For the broadcast you mentioned, that gives you the following url:

/iplayer/episode/b00kpyc7/The_Big_Questions_Series_2_Episode_19/

That broadcast will probably won't work for viewers outside the UK.

Thanks Peter. I recently moved from using a mouse to a touch pad and am only getting used to how it operates. Thanks again.

Decided that I would complain after all and have contacted this guy's Archbishop at arch@rcadc.org, for what its worth.

What puzzles me in both Ireland and in the US is why any Catholics would donate money to the church knowing it is going in part to pay compensation for the crimes of priests and the coverup that perpetuated it when this could all have been prevented had the church been concerned about the welfare of its parishoners instead of caring evidently exclusively for protecting its own heirarchy and its public image. I'm surprised that there isn't a rift in the church creatig a segment that would deny it any more money until it comes clean and opens up about a whole host of issues it is likely criminally complicit in such as helping Nazis escape to South America through forging documents after WWII. Surely Catholic priests in America and Ireland are not alone in this kind of child abuse, I'd bet if it were fully investigated and the truth revealed, you'd see it all over the world where the Catholic church can be found. Do other religions hide similar dark secrets on such a widespread scale? We don't know but so far the evidence for pedophilia at least isn't there....yet. Does the Catholic church's insistence on celebacy among its priests attract the kind of people who exhibit this type criminal behavior or somehow create conditions that lead to its development? We don't know that either. If the church has studied it themselves, I'm not aware of any findings. It seems to me that the church's heirarchy lives in a world all its own disconnected from the real one. Ususally people and organizations that do that eventually find the walls crashing in on them from all sides at once. It seems headed that way for them.

As regards celibacy being the issue, I dont' think so

I listened to Williams piece on this yesterday morning. Interesting that Mary Raftry feels (quite strongly it seems) that the celibacy rules should be scrapped ASAP. As I have said, is there a debate on this within the present Catholic hiararchy or are they going to turn a blind eye to what seems to be a major problem with the church's clergy (i.e. the priests and nuns) ?

I think it's more than a coincidence that the denomination that insists on a life of celibacy has a far higher rate of abbuse than all the other denominations, which allow their ministers/pastors etc. to marry.

ph

What about the infrastructure of priests already ordained all over the world? How many ticking time bombs are out there just waiting for some particularly egregious revelation and then an outpouring of many others to detonate them?

I think it would be ridiculous for Religious Orders to offer to pay more. They could easily have refused to take part in this process at all and taken their chances with the courts - the vast majority of these cases would never have seen the light of day. This process was set up to reduce the burden of proof so that people could tell their stories. There were a lot of balances built into the process, including victims not having to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt as in a criminal case or even on the balance of probabilities since many of the accused are dead - which is why they aren't named. Having collected all the "evidence" people want to go back and change the agreement to get more money out of the Orders. Where does that leave the law? The State was foolish leaving themselves open to these cases. I know you will all attack me for this, but for a large number of those claiming, its been like the army deafness - everyone is claiming and you'd be a mug not to.

As to why Catholics continue contributing, well it's still our Church. The priests in my parish, the parish sisters, the catholic schools, abused no one. Let's try and get some perspective on this.

And can I mention in particular the nonsense references to "Ireland's holocaust" and "concentration camps". If I used those terms in reference to abortion Jews and liberals would be down on me like a ton of brick, on the one hand for denying the uniquness of the Holocaust and on the other for calling people Nazis.

And on the homosexual issue - it is simply a fact that the majority of sexual abuse was men abusing teenagers. That doesn't make it better or worse, but as a matter of fact it means its not strictly a paedophilia issue. Obviously if the person is under the age of consent then it is still "child abuse" but in terms of dealing with it, the response from a psychologist will be different.

I've given links in other threads so I won't repeat myself that celibacy is not the issue - many abusers are married and most abuse takes place within the family.

Mccamleyc

You, and people like you are exactly why this evil has perpetuated. You are, in essence, an oxygen thief.

Insightful as ever, jellybean.

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Mccamleyc

I will write it all again in the morning, you are not getting off with what you have said above.

I have been afraid to post on this topic: afraid of what I might say, afraid that no matter what I said I could not say enough.

I recognise that the Catholic church brought education, prospects and advancement to generations of the poor in Ireland who were oppressed and disadvantaged by their Protestant landlords and employers. I recognise the work done by organisations like SVP to alleviate hardship and promote social justice. I recognise the holiness, devotion, and spirituality of many individual priests and religious for I have seen Christ playing in the features of their faces and living in the work they do.

However, speaking as someone intimately acquainted with man's inhumanity to man, when I learned of the extent and nature of this abuse I was drained of every joy in life, what happened in institutions like Artane was the purest evil: the word Satanic does not even begin to convey the horror of it.

I have spoken to two former inmates of Artane and listened at length to their stories. I have no resources to express what I felt never mind convey anything of the emotional desolation in those lives. I am practised in clearing my mind of the distress I encounter but I have never been able to purge those stories from my consciousness.

This was evil by individuals on a mass scale but it was also institutional evil, it is an evil that reaches to the very top of the church and contaminates it through and through. The hierarchy knew what was happening and concealed it, they added to the suffering of the abused, they dismissed and denigrated those they should have pastored in love.

The Catholic Church can have no vestige of moral authority, indeed can make no claim that is not utterly risible to be a Christian institution until it addresses this issue adequately.

For many it is already too late, for many who still live the grievous reality is that nothing is likely to repair their lives, I cannot speak for the survivors, I cannot only say that as a concerned outsider I do not think sorry is remotely appropriate as a response. I have not yet heard anyone in authority say Mea maxima culpa but even that would fall far short of meaningful. The Catholic Church understands the importance of symbolism, it endorses the penances of Lough Derg and Croagh Patrick; it might be a start if the Cardinal donned sackcloth and ashes and crawled on his hands and kness from Artane to Armagh, it would be better if the Pope joined him, but they would need to throw open the coffers of the Church as well and say to the victims "whatever it takes we'll give".

Mccamleyc

- I was abused by two different priests at two different seminaries when I was 12 to 14. Do you have any idea what that did to me? The first occasions were traumatic enough. For it to start happening again after I thought I had escaped, and by the Rector of the seminary - well, suffice to say I have never really recovered from it.

- Three of my classmates took their own lives. Three others attempted suicide. The rest, that I know of, have lives which have been scarred with nervous breakdowns and severe pychological problems.

- I have never asked for and never will ask for any money from their order.

- One of the priests involved pleaded not guilty until the very last moment and consistently lied through his teeth to the police and the courts.

- The effects on my family when it all came to light were devastating. My dad wanted to commit suicide saying that he couldnt cope with the knowledge that at the moment I needed him, he wasnt there.

- None of it would have come to light had I not gone to the police in later years.

- I thought the church would have supported me given that I was a priest. Instead they turned on me. The innocent priests you mention shunned me. They said that I had "let the side down", called me a traitor, a gold digger and that I had jumped on the band wagon.

- When one of the priests got out of prison he returned to the order and now lives in a cosy house where he has no financial worries whatsoever. I cant even afford the rent in the accomadation I'm forced to live in.

- Because of the treatment I received from the "innocent" clergy and "good" catholics, I ended up with a nervous breakdown, had to leave the priesthood and now languish on the dole.

- Every time I hear someone express the insensitive (to say the least) comments which you have expressed, it all comes back. Flashbacks, profound depression, thoughts of suicide, of whats the point of carrying on with this life.

- They were paedophiles not homosexuals!!

- The church paid no-one voluntarily. They were ordered to by the courts. They have very rarely offered any sort of help and only did so when forced by the courts, public opinion or on the rare occasion when a man of integrity was in charge.

- In this country one priest admitted to abusing up to 120 victims. Around 6 came forward. The rest couldnt because they didnt have the strength to put themselves or their families through the trauma of it all. Many have children and feel shame at what happened.

- I'm so glad you still have a church to contribute to. I dont, they stole my church.

- How you can conveniently ignore the hierarhcy's complicity in all of this is beyond me. Well its not actually, there are still thousands like you out there living in denial.

I could go on but, is this insightful enough for you?

Post # 14

This was an honest, if angry, response to Mccamleyc. I guess I know who complained about it. It struck me as indicative of what has been going on in the church over all these years. Unpallatable truths not being allowed to "see the light of day."

Well it wasn't me who complained. I never complain about postings.

Of course I can't share any of your pain or experience, but nor can I change what I've written, for it was written in the knowledge that of course there were people like you who have been abused and suffered greatly.

BUT - your story does not change the fact that the recent report includes people who didn't suffer the way you did, who've thrown their names in like the army deafness claim. I know that for a fact. For some reason my stating this is always greeted as if I don't believe in abuse.

And the innocent people I mentioned remain innocent - they didn't abuse you and they didn't turn on you. And while obviously there were cover ups, all this attempt to drag down the entire church in some great conspiracy is just that, a conspiracy theory.

So I'm afraid I will keep defending the innocent, keep making the same points. Pope Benedict had nothing to do with this, nor had Cardinal Brady.

Pope Benedict had EVERYTHING to do with this. He was head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and was JPII's closest advisor. His contribution to my situation was to send a letter to my Bishop to tell him to silence me and get me out of the media!!

He also was responsible for the appalling decision to allow Cardinal Law of Boston refuge in the Vatican and then allow him to say a funeral Mass for JPII on the steps of St Peter's. He protected him from possible criminal charges in the US.

And tell me, is Cardinal Brady a member of the Bishop's conference in Ireland? If so, then he shares in the guilt of the appalling handling of this whole situation.

You seem to have this image of clergy abusers as if they just picked on one victim per institution and that all the rest of the kids escaped their clutches and are now jumping on the bandwagon. I told you above, one abuser had 120 victims. 120 VICTIMS!! Do the Maths!!

In any case, to look at this situation then come to the conclusion that the main problem here is that some people have made false claims is simply ludicrous.

Your opinion is worthless and serves only to open up wounds for any victim who may unfortunately read your comments. Why dont you take Peter Morrow's advice and just keep quiet?!! You obviously dont know what you are talking about.

[Y]our story does not change the fact that the recent report includes people who didn't suffer the way you did... I know that for a fact. How do you know that for for a fact? Are you privy to information about this report that would call into question its credibility? I doubt very much if senior church figures such as Father Bartlett would be making the comments they have been, if there was any doubt about the reports reliability.

I'll try that again.

'[Y]our story does not change the fact that the recent report includes people who didn't suffer the way you did... I know that for a fact'(#19). How do you know that for 'for a fact'? Are you privy to information about this report that would call into question its credibility? I doubt very much if senior church figures such as Father Bartlett would be making the comments they have been, if there was any doubt about the reports reliability.

RJB, I hear you and I want to send you in whatever way I can my love.

I read your recent comments and, taken in the context of the history of your other posting on this blog, I can see you exemplifying what Okri said of humanity "The most authentic thing about us is our capacity to create, to overcome, to endure, to transform, to love and to be greater than our suffering".


I burn with indignation that there can be those who do not see how suffering may persist even when we have overcome its raw power and I curse those who add to it with their callousness.

I am so fearful of the damage that this stirring of the pot of memory will do; I am especially concerned for those who had buried their pain beyond consciousness. Any of us who has strength to spare at this time will not in life come closer to Jesus than we will by offering unconditional support to those who may feel alone or abandoned in their pain.

Romejelly - while I am sorry for your own personal experiences, the discussion was about the Ryan Report. In this case I know individuals who have applied on the basis that presence in a named institution constituted abuse. No where, no where did I deny the reality of abuse, nor say that lower level abuses lessens the reality of abuse for others. If people chose to willfully misread me, I can't help that. Nor can I help in an online discussion there are people who have been abused and others who haven't. How can we have a discussion if people simply say you have no experience of this and therefore should remain silent.

As regards the institutions named in Ryan, the Holy Father had nothing to do with them, nor had Cardinal Brady. As for describing Fr Timothy Bartlett as a senior church figure, well if PAs are senior church figures then I suppose he is.

Perhaps I'm cynical, but bishops trying, especially Archbishop Martin, to attack religious orders to try and ensure the attention doesn't switch to them, leaves me cold.

Portwyne

Thank you for your oil, balm and wine. And for post 16 which I found extraordinary in its balance, sensitivity, strength and wisdom.

Today I did a funeral of a woman who had eight children. Three of them died while she was alive. As I spoke about her, using the widow's mite, the anger in me from last night dissipated and was replaced by shame. Here was a woman who knew suffering. Overcoming, enduring, transforming were things which she seemed to do with ease.

I say shame because every now and then, like last night, I still hand power to others. After everything which has happened, after all the therapy, all the advice, all the example of heroic people like the woman in the coffin today, I am still not in the place I want to be. And when I think I have made progress - which normally means I havent thought about it for a while - bang, back it comes with a vengeance.

I see the church to which I belong haemorrhaging brilliant men and women, Vatican II being systematically dismantled, church leaders becoming no more than glorified diplomats - not a man of courage amongst them, seminaries producing dressed up choir boys instead of men with a bit of backbone and a church which complains about who everyone else is sleeping with, while it sleeps with the biggest whores of all - authority, power, privilege, unquestioned adulation.

All of these things were in place when the abuse was rife.

I find it difficult to accept the resurgence of fundamentalism, to see orthodoxy being rewarded and prophetic witness being persecuted and stamped out. Smells and bells are back, big time.

Jose Escriva being made a saint, Romero being airbrushed out of the picture. Opus Dei spreading their tentacles into Universities and colleges of further education.

The abused dont want money, ultimately. They know it is actually an accumulation of widow's mites, given for the poor, by the poor. I would love to see the hierarchy and the clergy walking from Artane to Armagh. I would join them, support them, stand shoulder to shoulder with them. It would be something which would I think reduce me to tears and it would be a day when I could truly say, "Its over." It would be a day when I could say, "Now there IS hope."

But at the moment, all I can see is cassocks and lace albs and birrettas - the uniform of the abusers - multiplying on a daily basis.

The least of the Catholic Church's worries is the abused. It is a very, very sick animal at the moment.

MCC

I am too drained to even be angry or hurt at you anymore, you wont let it rest and ten out of ten for effort.

The discussion is about abuse in the catholic church, not in families, not on farms, not on the moon. The Ryan report is about abuse in the catholic church by priests, brothers and nuns - not homosexuals - a report which called the problem "endemic" in the catholic priesthood.

No one is accusing you of denying that the abuse took place - but everyone is accusing you of being insensitive and quite callous in your comments. (Whether there are abused people on this blog or not is largely irrelevant. If you made such comments in a pub, there would be a good chance that there might be an abused person listening, such was the extent of the abuse. A point which you have clearly not taken on board.)

Also, I believe that were I not challenging you, other guys on here would be. You dont have to have been abused to find your comments objectionable.

I did smile at your use of the term "the Holy Father." I can hear some of our Protestant brothers and sisters on here saying, "My God, is there only one left?!!"

I have a letter in black and white from his "Holiness" written in 2001 where he showed absolutely no concern, compassion or understanding what so ever. In fact, he attacked me. This Pope has supported the Primacy of the Papacy, infallibility and Petrine authority ever since his days in University in Germany. With that authority comes responsibility. He has shunned responsibility while enjoying position and status, in this matter.

I did not describe Fr Bartlett as a senior church figure.

And if any church leader has come out of this quagmire with any integrity and credibility at all, it is the very man you attack in your post - Diarmud Martin!! He took on his predecessor to get the relevant church documents released to the authorities and won.

And, finally, you're in no position to accuse anyone of shifting the blame on to the orders when you yourself attempted in another post to shift the blame on to homosexuals.

The only positive thing I can say for you is that in some circles your blind loyalty might be admired. I think it is totally misplaced and damaging.

Finally, I emailed the Bishop of Cardiff on Sunday to complain about comments made by his Press Officer on The 91Èȱ¬'s Big Issues programme in which, like you, he claimed that the abusers were homosexuals not paedophiles. I received a detailed reply from the Archbishop today stating that the Press Officer's comments were not representative of the Archdiocese nor of himself. He made a Press release on Sunday night to say so.

The Ryan Report was about specific Industrial schools and other institutions - it was not about the Catholic Church nor the Catholic priesthood and nowhere does it say the problem was endemic in the priesthood. It used that term in relation to a specific institution. I appreciate that that means the Ryan Report doesn't cover the abuse you suffered. I can't help that.

How is it possible to have any sort of discussion if any form of disagreement is taken as insensitive or callous? Am I supposed to say, "you've been abused therefore I agree with everything you say"?

The suggestion that I have attempted to shift the blame to a group called homosexuals as somehow distinct from the religious abusers is nonsense. Why do you have a problem with the fact that most abusers were homosexual? It's just a statistical fact.

Would you call a man who raped a thirteen year old girl a heterosexual?
Is that how you would refer to him?

The Order of Christian Brothers are named hundreds of times in the report. You seem to have difficulty in saying those words even once. But no difficulty in calling the abusers 'homosexual.'

The report states that sexual abuse was "endemic" in Catholic run institutions (250 of them) - not one particular institution.

Have you conveniently forgotten the Ferns report? Do you think the up and coming Dublin report is going to be about homosexual priests?

You are painting a picture of an institution which had a few 'bad apples.' The Ryan report, the Ferns report and the up and coming Dublin report (according to Diarmud Martin) paint a very different story.

You'll find the same conclusions in investigations carried out in the USA, Canada and Australia.

Many of the thirty thousand survivors in Ireland (and I'm only talking about catholic run industrial schools here, not parishes, seminaries etc..) said that they had no safe way of telling their stories because much of Irish society regarded them as liars.

Much of Irish society is now facing the horrendous truth and coming to terms with it. To your shame you are still defending the indefensible under the guise of standing up for the innocent.

Your innocent parish priests and nuns do not need your protection. They need you to face the truth.

RJB thank you.

You have spoken openly of your experiences, how you felt as this story was reported, and how you feel as you read the reaction of commentators. You are very self-aware. Your engagement with humanity and your love for Christ's Church burn brightly when you write and must, I suspect, at some level help sustain you now.

There will be, however, others reading this blog, but silent, who also suffer and who may perhaps lack any kind of comfort. I hope you will not think me presumptuous if I pass on a couple of reflections on your comments which might amplify them for their benefit; perhaps you will disagree with me where it would be useful to do so or add any further thoughts of your own.

I often think, and I am sure you know, that apparent ease in dealing with the pain of life may reveal a grace but it usually conceals a struggle. I see no shame in that struggle, no shame in defeats or set-backs, no shame if one occasionally stands back from the fight.

I think we humans have two pre-programmed responses to danger: fight or flight. I find some therapies can be very macho, I don't know if you would agree, and one can come to feel that one must always confront, always battle, always win. I think sometimes flight answers the bill much better - sometimes it's good to turn away and acknowledge that one needs just to escape, just to forget. That wouldn't be weakness, I would think it common sense.

mccamleyc

I recollect two commands that our Lord gave to Peter, the Father of His Church.

The first was: "Feed my sheep, Feed my lambs" - Sustain. Nurture. Build-up. Care.

The second was: "Put away your sword" - the only defence Christ requires from His church is to live His life in the world.

I tell you, mccamley, PUT AWAY YOUR SWORD! You are not defending the Church, your words and the blindness from which they proceed dishonour Christ and disgrace the Church.

It was me, I think mccamleyc was referring to in describing Fr. Bartlett as a senior church figure. I did so because that is what I have been led to believe. My point being that if he is (as is claimed) destined for high office in the Catholic Church, he is hardly likely to have made those comments if he had any doubts about the accuracy or credibility of the "Ryan report". Add to that the fact that he, himself (I am reliably informed) is a former "Christian Brother", makes his intervention all the more relevant and insightful.
Anyway, leaving Fr. Bartlett aside, mccamleyc did not answer my questions about his claims. (i) Are you suggesting in this comment, '[Y]our story does not change the fact that the recent report includes people who didn't suffer the way you did, that individuals fabricated or over exaggerated their evidence to the commission? (ii) If so how do you know that for a fact'? (iii) Are you privy to information about this report that would call into question its credibility?

Thanks again, Portwyne, for your further insightful and caring comment.

In 2001 I spent 4 months in one of the top psychological/wellness/treatment centres in North America. I went there of my own choice (in fact I had to 'pass' a very detailed screening to get in!!) The lead up to me going there was me going public about the abuse, a protracted police investigation, a fight with the Vatican and all the things you would imagine that might happen surrounding such a messy and sensitive issue. I had to get away, I just couldnt go on.

Throughout my life, up to that point, I had heard people very glibly talking about abuse and making comments like, "Why didnt they just tell their parents, or a teacher or go to the police?" (Such people didnt know what had happened to me.) The effect on me was that I grew up thinking that I was a coward. I hadnt had the guts to go and report what was going on. I was in my late thirties when it all triggered off and I was eventually able to see and accept that actually, quite the opposite was true. I had actually been trying to protect those I love from knowledge that I knew would devastate them, not just about what had happened to me, but what the church that they love, had done. Maybe I wasnt a coward, maybe I was actually a very brave, but misguided wee boy.

I published a book about it all in the hope that other victims might be helped. That those who were suffering in silence might be prompted to seek help. The result was anger, ridicule, ostracization from many of the clergy, and many abuse victims landing at my door to seek advice. I didnt cope with any of it well, in hindsight.

One of the powerful memories from that time was one particular letter sent from a man who said that he was a former priest from my diocese. He said that he had left years before and was now a very broken human being. He said that he had no strength left to speak out and that his life was effectively over. He thanked me for fighting on behalf of people like him and for shouldering the flack that was flying. He said that he just couldnt go public about what had happened to him, he just couldnt face it. He didnt sign the letter and put no address.

That letter affected me deeply. I knew there was someone out there who desperately needed help, but I had no way of finding him.

Two months later, one of my best friends in the priesthood, who had attended a different junior seminary from me, was found hanging from the ceiling in his presbytery. He was only in his thirties. I have been haunted ever since by the thought that this priest was the letter writer. There is always the thought, as with most suicides, could I have prevented it? This dread on top of the desperate sadness that my pal was gone.

Today, I always react when I hear what I perceive to be nonsense talked about abuse. I know it would be better for me, for my health, to just let it go. But I cant or wont. Isnt it crazy, when I was young and should have spoken out, I didnt. Now that I'm older and should let it go, I wont.

One of the reasons I have taken on MCC so aggressively is that I have a deep sense that no one is blame free in all of this. Everyone shares the blame at some level. The authoritarian church, Irish society, parents who, against their better judgement, allowed their pregnant daughters to be taken from them or who sent off their eldest sons to become priests, those who saw what was going on and said nothing, those who protected the abusers, the police, the government, those who gloat at it all, those who just walk away and shake the dust from their feet..... I have watched so many people, so many groups shout "not me" as they point a finger at others. How can we become healthy again if none of us recognise we are ill?

It is such a mess, such an enormous social sin.

I spoke to someone today about this thread and my reaction throughout it. I made the decision that I need to get a bit of 'stillness' back. I'm going to attempt to do that. To look at a post which might make me nauseas - and make no reply. We'll see how I fare. Me sinking my teeth into the laptop is not a healthy place to be - for anyone.

Portwyne

One of the legacies of suffering can be humour and I discovered that I often used humour as a defence mechanism. It was at times a barbed humour. However, upon realising that about myself, I'd like to think that I can laugh now, just for the sake of laughter itself and not as a defence mechanism.

Last night in bed I suddenly found myself roaring with laughter over one of the sub-topics of this thread, namely homosexuality, and something which you said in post # 30 - the two commands which Jesus gave Peter.

There was actually a third command which Jesus gave Peter, but I'll let you work that out for yourself. It was this third command that had me smiling.

Portwyne, I dont know who you are, your age, gender, background, occupation, or much at all really. But I'll tell you one thing about yourself. You, my friend, have the tenderness and love of God at the core of your being. AND post #30 does not emanate from a person who "could find grey areas on a zebra."

When the thread started about the BNP, I found myself unhappy about some of the comments being posted. I was proud that these church leaders had spoken out and challenged these odious racists using Jesus to attempt to draw support for their racism and I felt that some of the comments were way off the mark. I was quite frankly surprised at some of the them. I am no stranger to criticising the hierarchy, however, on this occasion felt that they were to be commended for their stance. They werent "telling" people how to vote, they were simply challenging a gross lie.

I was so immersed in this thread that I didnt post on that one and express my feelings. You did and you were spot on!! Again, you did not strike me as a "grey area" person.

I think your pal needs to make a reappraisal of you - or zebras!!

Here is a link to one man's experience and why he, like me, believes that culpability is far broader than some would have us believe.

Portwyne (post 29)

This last paragraph of yours which ends, "I think sometimes flight answers the bill much better - sometimes it's good to turn away and acknowledge that one needs just to escape, just to forget. That wouldn't be weakness, I would think it common sense." is, I think, one of the most freeing (that's not the best word BTW) comments I have ever had the pleasure to read.

I found this youtube clip which puts a face on the people who went through it:

You can listen to a counter point too, from William Donohue, head of the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights. The interview is posted in two parts, here



and here