91Èȱ¬

YES it was our finest hour!

Inn historical terms, and despite our Empire still existing at the time, this was a clash between good and evil and evil nearly prevailed. Would the US have been able to resist the Nazi's and the Japanese? It would certainly have been much tougher.

It is still pertinent today as this page has borne witness to those who would try to argue National Socialism still has a lot to offer - such as jaded_jean/statist/?. They are usually very vague about which political party they would support but tend to refer to the smaller "radical" parties.

So this is an ongoing battle although today there is virtually no chance of losing the physical battle and the battle of ideas was won seventy years ago as the true horrors of the Nazi regime were realised. There is no debate about whether the Holocaust happened as some would suggest.

But the battle goes on, to a minor extent, because some may become infected by the false ideas of Mein Kampf and that can then lead on to violence. The Aryan Strike Force have recently had people jailed and of course there have been ex-BNP members like Lewington (tennis ball bomber) and the guy whose act was so cowardly I can't recall his name but he blew up the London gay pub.

The BNP supporters would probably dispute that their party is a Nazi party but the general view of them is certainly that they are there or there abouts on the political spectrum.

This is Cameron buttering us up to live in wartime austerity.

I gather that the control orders ruling mean that two suspects can now sue for damages as there was no case against them.

I am surprised though that apparently the 91Èȱ¬ Secretary was refused leave to appeal as I believed both the Tories as well as the Lib Dems were against the control orders - it may be a technicality I suppose.

It can be argued as Lord Carlile may that we are less safe if we stand by our principles of justice. But I would rather than that than think about somebody who suffers a loss of liberty and mental anguish for no crime and when there is no obvious solution to the dilemma of suspicion regarding very serious terrorist activity and the lack of evidence for a prosecution.

I can only agree with the Liberty line:

"We look forward to the new counter-terror review scrapping these orders and replacing them with a policy that is less expensive to public safety, finances and fairness."

Personally I hope that review will take a broad look at the pragmatic returns on association with torture and renditions as well to see whether, as I suspect, they were distractions that distorted the efforts of the free world to defeat the hideous threat of al Qaeda and their fellow travelers.

Is 1940 when UK became the junior partner to the US?

"No 10 declined to say whether other elements of the Pakistan state – the ISI service or the military – export terrorism. Cameron said in his Today programme interview that he was choosing his words carefully because Britain believes there is a distinction between the government of Pakistan and some state agencies."

Do the Pakistan experts think the external pressure will help or hinder the presumed internal battle between elements of the ISI and their government?

It is certianly true that when the US started talking about nuclear recator technology the ISI arrested numbers of people very quickly - though some were set free later.

Obviously they do have their legal standards to conform to but then as a Channel 4 documentary suggested the LET, as an instance, appeared to be guarded by the state as opposed to being very closely watched.

There remain, I believe, questions regarding the Benazir Bhutto assassination.

On the other hand Pakistan lose more soldiers and civilains to the Talibs and al Qaeda than the allies in Afghanistan I believe and I seem to recall that the deaths of some North West Frontier police were truly horrific. So would a patriotic organisation dabble in Machiavellian manipulations where their own country paid such a heavy price?

In my view I have never seen how the AfPak startegy could work when the issues driving Pakistani domestic politics were not addressed.

Obviously though we want to be known to be acting as concerned friends with strong mutual interests rather than would be neo-colonial masters.

It was the hour that Great Britain can and should be very proud of? But, did it stand really alone in 1940? How about Poland?

By then it was occupied by the monstrous enemy of mankind but Poland never gave up its resistance either internally or forming the Army abroad and ultimately the Polish pilot squadron played a vital role in defeating Hitler and his 'cronies', whether German, French or of other cowardly national leaders at the time.

mim

On the main topic for tonight I will be so interested in the phrasing of those who post on this page quite often and are .... pals ... of the old Jaded_jean entity who for instance complained about the de-Nazification of Europe post 1945.

Will they be very careful and oblique or will they come out of the shadows and declare their views?

Many of them declare their respect over the race "realism" views of that person and are very hazy about how far that philosophical overlap goes.

Some also get quite touchy about Hitler and his activities with Geli Raubal.

Shame really.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

#6 mimpromptu

I do hear what you are saying on the pilot side and in particular it is a shame that after the war we did not acknowledge the heroic efforts of the Poles due to the cold war reality and our need to rebuild. Sadly we did leave the Poles in the grip of tyranny for many more decades.

But, with respect, if Britain had folded at Dunkirk - and many would have - then there would have been no external resistance.

Britain did not win the world war - but Britain could be said to have been alone when it did not lose the world war.

No doubt knowledge of the Nazi behaviour in Poland helped make surrender unthinkable.

On an unrelated topic barring national pride I was so pleased to see Mo Farrar deservedly win with Chris Thompson getting the silver also with a fine and gutsy run in the 10,000 metres.

It has been so long since we did well in that event and now two medals in one race.

#9

Thank you, Gango. It has been a contentious issue of Roosevelt, Churhill and whoever else was involved, to make a pact with Stalin, the other monstrous enemy of mankind, and thus making Poland being 'controlled' to a large extent by the Soviets. But, Poles being Poles have always known how to preserve their identity, won ultimately with their oppressors as I've written earlier.

mim

If its any help, I think its fairly ridiculous to devote an entire programme to one throwaway sentence.

BRITAIN'S FINEST HOUR?

Surely when 'Rule Britannia' was sung without irony. NOW the double irony is that we sign up to everyone else's rules and don't have the backbone to waive them.

POLISH PILOTS - EVEN MORE LEGENDARY THAN POLISH PLUMBERS! (#6)

Legendary for scaring the proverbial out of Gerry AND scaring our lads at the same time!

Fair point Mim.

THE ADDICTION THAT DARE NOT SPEAK ITS NAME

At #57, on the Tuesday thread, I listed the addictions of our civilisation. I knew I had missed one - LYING.

Where would Westminster-style democracy be without it?

1940....was a very good year especially September 15th when we defeated the German airforce and made them abandon plans for the invasion and turn their attentions to the invasion of Russia in Operation Barbarosa. We were lucky, lucky at Dunkirk and I will never fathom why Hitler didn't push forward in those vital three weeks when he could have taken the BEF out and not give us a chance to get off those beaches. I had two Uncles who got off those beaches and they couldn't understand it either so much were they, the Germans, in command. Years later German commanders said they could push home the advance because of the terrain not being suited to their heavier tanks, some believe Hitler thought that we would throw in our lot with the Germans and form a front against Russia and with friendlies like Lord Halifax and certain memebers of the Royal family seventy years on it is still a mystery.....

I would have thought it was VE Day (8th May 1945)....

We need to have our own rules to make us different from everyone else

So why is the Chair of bloated quango British Council on David Cameron's
trip to India instead of being culled? Something to do with BAE Systems?



And why the 'confidentiality clause' over the sale of their library in
Mumbai for an 'undisclosed sum' to Indian magnate Anand Jain in March?

Has Cameron actually gone out and read some history then?

This was not Britain's finest hour ... closure of The British Library in Kerala ..... and ripping out the barcodes of the books:

#14 FEARLESS POLES, though obviously, like in any nation or group, with exceptions

Thank you, Barrie.

By comparison to the other Easterm Europen countries, after Stalin finally died, Poland was givem relative freedom by the Soviets as they were scared that my countrymen might cause too much trouble. So, for example, most of us could travel to the West on holiday with no strings attached though occasionally people were allowed to go to a conference abroad only under the condition of doing some 'spying' and reporting back on their return.

Luckily, I was not approached this way at all. However, I, like anybody else, had to fulfill certain conditions, i.e. have somebody specific to come to /a proof of invitatiom was required/ or have enough Pounds or Dollars for the duration of the holiday and/or a course at a college.

When I first came to the UK at the age of 19, I had an invitation from a Scotsman whose adopted son had a Polish father and who'd previously stayed with me and my mother. In 1978, as far as I remember, although I may have had an invitation from distant relatives who came here during World War II, I managed to get enough Pounds to prove I could look after myself.

On arrival, from Heathrow, I went straight to Queen's Ice Rink. A few days later I enrolled on course of English at a school by Cambridge Circus, Our teacher was an interesting young man from New Zealand.

mim

2003 neocon war must be our coarsest hour?

the iraq inquiry continues to show the british state under tony blair was dysfunctional. which is the result of institutional incompetence and some vanity.

Jon Snow, tonight, felt it necessary to correct his snap reference to "Muslim terrorism", with the alternative, "Islamic terrorism".

What's the difference, Mr. Snow?

Do the Loony Lefties now deem "Muslim" to be an offensive term? How ironic.

COURSE IT WAS (#23)

But you forgot to add - 'so far' Jaunty. And let's not forget dysfunctionals: Maggie (Poll Tax) Major (Cones Hot Line) Brown (YouTube pantsonfire dance).

'Definite Dave' has shown himself to be every bit as much a believer in his own rightness (and righteousness) as Bonkers Blair. Dave long ago lost his virginity in matters of war, having signed up to Tony's Folly. It follows, he will feel no pain offering himself up to the next ill-advised coupling.

Did we all see Dave 'doing statesman'? He really thinks he is that great-looking guy on the poster. Dream on Dave.

We have got another one.

#18

Lightoftruth

Just for the sake of being 'differemt' or out of vital necessity and does 'we' refer to the UK as a whole or is it something personal?

mim

TERROR ERROR (#24)

I thought Dubya had established (and Tony confirmed) that 'Terror' like Evil, is a pervasive FORCE that resides, potentially, wherever hearts do not own Jesus as Lord. Hence it is neither Muslim nor Islamic but ubiquitous. Mr Snow take note.

Singie

I've been taking note of your problems with the educationalists. Is it them who've turned you into a rebel?

Re: lying

It ain't only the elected representatives in Westminster who lie, is it? My grandma tried to instil in us the idea of avoiding lying but she did think that keeping quiet about the truth did have its place in special circumstances.

AMBASSADOR or EMBARRASSER DAVE

Don't you just hate those countries that 'look both ways'? Rendition, illegal wars, dodgy banking, secret talks with Terrorists etc.

Nick'll fix it.

25

yes dave on pakistan is out the neocon handbook. what about our 'terrorism' aka as liberal interventionism or 'democracy' [not the monarchist soft corruption model with unelected upper house the uk has you understand but some vestal virgin cromwellian purity we don't meet] through military means upon muslims who want shariah? in a moral relativist west why is our model 'better' and for whom that we must export it through violence? if our model is so much better wouldn't people adopt it naturally?

does the ipod need to be forced into people's pockets at gunpoint or do people choose it because they can see the good in it? did the iranian mullahs come about because of fundamentalism in iranian society or because the west usurped iranian democracy that wanted to nationalise the BP [that great satan again which seems at the root of many of the worlds problems?] oilfields and so gave power to a marginal group of exiled clerics who spoke against the puppet shah reign of terror?

yes dave seems to be [naturally perhaps for all new PMs] in a state of ego inflation which ones hopes will be burst soon and he returns to earth without committing us to more wars.

The 91Èȱ¬ 10 o'clock news report on the Arizona immigration law was a disgrace. The 91Èȱ¬ spun it as though the state law was unfair. Arizona is over-run with illegal latinos but today some lib judge overruled the Arizona state law; apparently it goes against Federal law...(yeah, when it suits, throw in the Fed laws) The 91Èȱ¬ and its reporter did its usual best to suggest that the Arizonians trying to stop illegal immigration and firm up their borders was a horrid and nasty thing to do.

Borders ,language and culture. Lose that and it all goes wrong.
Jesus! doesn't anybody bother with history anymore.

Yo! gango, hows it going buddy. I see your giving your take on sporting events now, very good. All you need is to include a comic strip and a crossword on here and you'll be complete. I better warn Rupert he's got some serious competition coming his way. In the meantime why not set-up your own web site -like the Huffington post...I'll happily contribute, you know, for balance; every Libbylefty needs a rightwinger, I mean, if it wasn't for the likes of me, you'd be an unknown secondhand book seller in some quaint little market town. Chairman Mao's little red handbook, well thumbed, 50p..a bargain.

Without doubt 1851 and the Great Exhibition was our proudest year. It was an act of supreme confidence and strength to showcase everything great in Great Britain. Furthermore it was a symbol of growing democratisation where we clearly were leading the world. And it was arguably one of the catalysts that enabled GB to grow in strength for the next 50 years. I also choose it because it is not directly linked with war, although one has to concede British power in the Victorian era was indivisibly linked to military power.

It was an interesting take by Kate Williams to mention slavery's abolition as our finest hour and it is a good point but we could not mention abolishing it without considering we had been engaged in it - and thus that does not sit so well.

But whilst there are very few "differencists" or race "realists" and so on these days - with their roots in the National Socialism of the nineteen thirties and an inability to see its utterly flawed racial outlook - its curious that the same theme does in fact apply between 1940 and the abolition of slavery.

With the abolition of slavery there was a public understanding that the mistreatment and subjugation of peoples from other races was entirely wrong and the Nazis were totally absorbed in race - possibly as a cynical device to gain and maintain power through provoked social hysteria.

Perhaps the big idea should be that the best hour for any country is the realisation that we have in common with other peoples and to prevent strife caused by ignorance.

There will always be the few aberrants though - just as, for instance, there were bound to be a few who could look at Raoul Moats acts and say " there but for the grace of God go I".

The Labour attitude on AV is one of total cynicism and its quite clear that they will use any excuse to not give up on the existing advantage that led to them needing 35,000 votes in average per seat and 44,000 for the Tories.

The geography probably won't make much difference to the Lib Dems as their vote is not geographical.

But I think the current Labour strategies of trying to rock the coalition during National Crisis and their take that their way on the economy was the only way combined with their attitude to electoral reform could play very, very badly with the public in a years time.

I also doubt that anybody will care much who said what about AV to whom during the negotiations as it was the agreed outcomes that everybody rightly focused on.

May I suggest some of these required houses are built in Scotland.

A third of Britain but with only one tenth of the population, I'm sure people would love the bracing air of the Highlands.

#31 kevseywevsey

"The 91Èȱ¬ and its reporter did its usual best to suggest that the Arizonians trying to stop illegal immigration and firm up their borders was a horrid and nasty thing to do."

As ever wild accusations and no specific example as I don't think that they said or implied that. Some parts suggested that people were going home who were illegals for instance - that would be a positive for the law.

Do you think that they should go what that chap you mentioned .... "the Griff" whoever that is .... and offer them 50,000 or so to leave. But of course he is not talking about illegals but also people of race.

"Borders ,language and culture. Lose that and it all goes wrong."

That's deep man, real deep. Were you going to mention the rubber bullets in Belfast again and how important they are to you in your fight against "prozac liberals"?

"I'll happily contribute, you know, for balance"

Yessss! So you would be the man who also spoke of embracing religious hatred and social divisions and stuff.

Balance.

You know when you declared war on me as I was "always saying things about the BNP" that may not indicate somebody who is seeking balance in the views of many.

So no, given that I am utterly against racism I would not be looking for contributions from you were I to set up on my own.

Sometimes I try to help those who may, for instance, obsess about an alleged "Jewish hegemony" by trying to get them to explain their views and where all of the evidence is.

But then there are the debtjugglers of the world who only need to see a Jewish name in finance to "know" the truth.

"I mean, if it wasn't for the likes of me, you'd be an unknown secondhand book seller in some quaint little market town. Chairman Mao's little red handbook, well thumbed, 50p..a bargain"

Mao really isn't my thing whilst your old pal jaded_jean used to try and sell National Socialists as being radical lefties more or less - Hitler did rob Lenin of some ideas - and your pal often spoke well of the old China in the past.

Interesting really that you say you are a right winger - most would describe you as far right - when somebody of that ilk would "explicate" that they were far left.

Are "nationalists" left or right?

Anyways I suppose its time for me to say dakka dakka dakka and leave you to spin slowly down towards the ground.

#32

It's interesting you mention the Great Exhibitiom at the Crystal Palace as Britain's finest hour as partially inspired by the great love between Queen Victoria amd her Consort.

Ah, the power of real love, inspiration, imagination and recognition of the greatness of the times one lives in, rather than 'living' in and harking back to the past.

(^_^)(^_^)(^_^)(^_^)

Brightyangthing

I don't know why you've decided not to send any posts to this blog. I guess you've either decided not to bother any more or just having a rest. However, I hope you're well and that you do actually throw a glance every now and then at what's being scribbled on here and, if so, you don't mind addressing some of my posts, including rhymed ones, to yourself.

Here's one for you:

It's amazing what can be accomplished while listening to 'Moonlight Sonata'
Combining the pleasure with 'dealing' with persona non grata
Who lost all their sense of reality,
Not speaking of any sign of dignity
That's obviously lacking in their identity,
If they have any, I might as well add.
As for myself, I'm recovering well and am glad
To be cycling around twirling and glide.

mim

It sounds like a very good idea for the new government to stop forcing capable and very much with it employees of 65 to retire. If one can be a politician, or a member of Royalty perfectly fulfilling their duties, as is the case with The British Queen for example, at the age of 70, 80 or beyond, why can't 'ordinary' people?:



mim

On some of the ongoing consequences of World War II started by the deluded and self/sex obsessed little Adolf:

Isn't it the fact that the above monstrous despot and murderer can be blamed for the creation of Israel, for the Palestinians to lose their own country and for so many Jews to have become intransigent on the question of Palestine, for example, out of fear of facing the attempts at further annihilation of the Jewish nation?

mim

PROTECTING THE BULL IN CATALONIA

/news/world-europe-10798210

I'm happyy about that!!!!

lET'S HOPE MADRID FOLLOWS SUIT????

On the importance of dentured speech:

/news/uk-england-norfolk-10795088

and the man who had the courage, i.e. Winston. Rather approprietly named at birth, wasn't he?

The woman last night who mentioned The Abolition of Slavery.

Who is she trying 2 kid, Pull the other one, it used 2 have balls n chains init/onit

For my mate gango, a quote, from someone whose name escapes me, could be a Roman poet..and maybe not. But who every said or wrote it had good common sense:

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.


There you go Gango, you can cut-n-paste that one into your blog. That Marxist, Leninist, Maoist, Pol Potist and Bob Crowist blog you got going on here.
Its time to raise your profile now Gango, I see lights, red carpets and literary awards on the horizon and slipping in a good quote now and again never did any renowned wordsmith harm.
Quote interpretation:

Its gone pear-shaped, we only wanted to help and be inclusive to all creeds, race and cultures.

A Sting in the Tale

Stinger Missiles/Hittiles in Afghanistan

Now where could they have come from.. us?

A stinger up the tailpipe.. they dont like it up EM

WOMEN WEARING SUITS AND BEHAVING LIKE MEN?

What's wrong with a woman becoming a politician or having intellectual predilections and naturally thinking in big terms/ideas? More pserceptively, in fact, than many a suffocating tedious, full of pretentious demands, male.

And regarding women wearing trousers. Perhaps they can't boast of legs like those of the beautiful Claudia Schiffer? And if they do, perhaps they 'hide' them from time to time in order to draw attention to their other attributes? And there's comfort as well.

mim

146 incidents of children being children napped bye bye fathers

dozy mothers fault, marry stan at your childrens pearl

please your self, I would never marry stan

Newsnight looked a bit sad to have travelled half way round the world at great expense to cover a demonstration of only five people in Arizona. It didn't look like a popular cause with anyone other than your reporter.

The historian was funny on this programme. He obviously phoned David Cameron up, and found out he meant the 1940s. So I take it, that was 46, 47, 48, and 49.

There was never a partnership, except in certain projects which the US benefited from. If it's not this historian, another historian used troop numbers as measurement of this relationship, stating 4.5 million from GB to 13 million from the US, when in fact it was just under 10 million from the Empire to just over 11 million from the US. I mean for example, Japan had 4 million personnel in its navy, compared to the Royal Navy that had around 1 million, yet the Imperial Japanese Navy was no where near the size of the Royal Navy. Who would be the junior partner if the RN and IJN were on the same side. In fact we could possibly be the senior Navy of the world nowadays, in terms of numbers of Captains and Admirals we have. Who needs ships.

If it's in terms of who spent the most, who we owed money too, then we are probably junior partners to many more Countries, even some in the Empire, in particular the British Commonwealth part (not be confused with today's Commonwealth), India and Canada for example, were creditor nations I beleave. If that was the case, now that we have paid off these loans, are we now not a junior partner. We are just junior partners to the City, money markets and banks. Recent military conflicts make us a junior partner, or smaller partner. Regarding WW2 some political entities could contribute more in certain areas, but less in others. it cannot be measured by todays eye's in any way.

We just need to make sure we are not a real junior partner in today's world. Whether people like it or not, but in terms of making nuclear components, and renewable energy machines and installation/servicing ships for ourselves and for exports, we should not be a junior partner in this field, unless we decide that's all we want to be. Reversing the loan to Sheffield Forgemasters (three years in the making)is a huge mistake, and points the way to us being an importer of components we should be making, exporter of GDP and a junior partner to others.


Two great days in Britain's history happened in Clydebank, Scotland, in 1934 and 1938. That was the building and launching by a Sheffield company of the RMS Queen Mary, and RMS Queen Elizabeth repectively. Apart from being the greatest ships ever built, they represented a united Britain, with her industry, emerging from depression. Built from loans to be repaid, not subsidy, they benefited many companies through out Britain and the rest of the Empire, they made money and were a huge succes. They also helped a tiny bit in the war too. America would of not emerged from depression for many more years, if it had not been for World War Two.

Great moments in a Country's history can mean endevour in other fields, not just war. Engineering achievements in design and build do not mean much in this Country at the moment. I hope this changes soon.

It has to be said that we weren't alone in 1940; we had our friends and allies from the Commonwealth with us. So lets not forget the ANZAC's, Canadians, Indians and others.