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think I'll skip skule tonight as Michael Gove is on and he scares our cat.....

How about asking them about home education? They've clashed on that in the Commons, with Balls adamant that 95% of consultation responses against is a majority in favour, and Gove and Laws both declaring that it will all die in the wssh-up.

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Education equips what is basically already there genetically but which is maturing with age/development, it does not create or instill de novo. The great myth is that good education is the product of good schools rather than good pupils. Few of our politicians in the liberal-democracies appear to appreciate this subtle point. One wonders why?

Listen to them and shudder.

Perhaps Newsnight could ask Mr to feature as an edgy satellite guest? He could ask our politicians some direct questions, even on education.

I am interested in whether student numbers, particularly from poorer backgrounds, has changed and how vulnerable the universities are right now to volatility in foreign student applications.

If there is not the money for facilities and research they might all clear off elsewhere.

I have to say that I am surprised that numbers applying in general appeared to go up - that was contrary to what I would have expected.

Talking about schools 'eh?

How have we come to be such a barbaric country?

#4 statist

"Education equips what is basically already there genetically but which is maturing with age/development, it does not create or instill de novo."

You are at least more modest than the head banger jaded_jean who used to rant on about Hitler and National Socialism and why couldn't Newsnight cover the BNP more.

That is just as well as in fact as the science shows that there is no genuine difference between the races then the general genetic makeup of students is irrelevant. As the Channel 4 "Race and Intelligence" showed where there are IQ differences they are well explained by environmental issues like educational infrastructures in Africa and cultural factors like the Chinese work ethic for study.

As Jones and the Incredible Human Journey showed there is incredibly little difference between the races and what is different is generally just cosmetic climate adaptations.

'The BNP's new membership rules "indirectly" discriminate against black and Asian people, the UK equalities watchdog has told a court hearing.'

If Simon Darby told an Asian businessman on the radio that his memebership application would be blocked then surely there is nothing indirect about that.

It is certainly true that the BNP have not provided any reason why their racially discriminatory polocies should be tolerated to the courts. None of the "science" that they claim exists has ever showed up there.

It is also true that the far right demi-god Hitler would have had all of his oppenents shot and so the whining of those devoid of intellectual reasoning and social empathy does not persuade.

But as I have said many, many times the UK has been too tolerant of far right bombers. They are incompetent and they are probably lone wolves but are they operating totally alone and its clear even from this page, quite often, that there are those using the internet to try and create the internet cultural conditions to encourage such acts of terrorism.

Lewington the "train station tennis ball would be bomber" looks like a typical headbager and probably lied when he claimed to be part of a larger numbers of cells.

But lets not take tolerance too far.

Everybody - such as Hunt of the Tories - is saying how volatile the electorate is. Tactical voting will surely be an issue.

That is because they are dissatisfied with the two party system and a first past the post system won't allow them to achieve the granularity of voting approval that they want.

PR would allow the end of defference and safe seats and would lead, via fairer voting, to a more engaging political apparatus. The end of an inevitable two party pendulum where its a question of turns rather than the strength of the political ideas.

Politicians hungry for power that may be disproportionate to their support don't like coalitions or hung parliaments. The markets don't like the uncertainties of a hung parliament and a potential policy void.

But surely the will of the people acting on their own individual interests and the overall interests of the nations if so expressed should be respected.

Instead of the usual hogwash where politicians are found to be saying that they are "listening more" - and then as with the Nattional Converstaion follow it up with an act that shows they aren't where they try to push through GM when consultations had shown 80+% of the UK are against it.

By the way Newsnight as an aside is the EU decision that some GM strands of potato and maize can be grown in Germany and elsewhere irrivocable?

Anyway if the Tories did an electoral deal with the Lib Dems for PR would they have to compete on an uneven playing field where tactical voting means it is quite likely that they too would not have the seats that reflectedc their support? Probably there is no time to woo the party in this campaign but it would change all.

The only thing about PR is it would make it more likely that the BNP would get respresentation and they being a party that does not promote democracy they would obviously try to disrupt the process.

But I say keep your enemies where you can see them and can monitor their threat. It is a disgrace that nearly a million people voted for them when they exist in perpetual lies and distortion and want fascism to replace democracy.

Given the way Alistair Campbell used his Sky interview to try and head of the "villification" of a non-partisan organisation asking reasoned and obvious questions are we likely to see more James Brown style emotional collapses in the election campaign?

Will Gordon break down and decry those who won't accept he saved the world but suggest he helped to nearly wreck it via inferior regulation when the financial services are a giant part of our national economy and helped knock the global economy in no small part? Will it distract?

Will Cameron move smooth upper class poise to a lower class emotional response to those that try to use class warfare to divide him from the floating voters?

Will the dramatic media responses infect even the media?

Should Paxo break down in mid interview and say how hard it is to get a damned answer out of a politician? Sob a little to the camera and so on.

I think not and the media are generally too easily distracted as Blair showed with his "ten year" question that circumvented the issue of what would have happened if we had continued to show faith in Hans Blix and found out in good time that in fact Iraq had no WMD.

Keep asking the questions.

@ Ecolizzy #7 - I suspect another reason the school has gone outright "Halal" is because Halal meat is cheaper than the non-Halal variety.

Perhaps this article may also help tonight's panelists

A question for each of the politicians:

'To the best of your knowledge, are children/pupils from a 'poorer' backgrounds also less cognitively able (according to official tests of ability such as the CAT and SAT and HMG CVA regression model). If so, is there any evidence that education raises pupils' ability?

Put another way, is there any evidence that children/pupils in better, say Independent, schools (as opposed to Maintained Schools) do better because they come from more able backgrounds? I understand the SATs distributions are disjoint.

If there is evidence for this, what are you all talking about please?

Go on, Newsnight - ask them. It's not as if I'm asking you to ask 'when did you stop beating your partners'......or is it?

Also, you could ask:

'If we have open borders and loads of low skilled people come to this country and have lots and lots of kids, whilst smarter people have less and less kids because such women are out of work making money to buy stuff, what is going to happen to educational standards on average. Will they have to come down to meet market needs, or will they go up?'

Perhaps you could ask that chap Jason from Dancing on Ice to ask the questions? or Mr Ahmadinejad? Whatever, you need to ask these politicians some smarter questions like this to see what they propose to do about the mess which they've allowed to develop over decades.

Second question, third line: 'are out at work making money' (e.g. to buy big, or lots of, houses even though they have small, or no families).

I hope such questions aren't considered 'offensive' (it's so hard to judge these days).

SCHOOL IS NOT WHAT NATURE WOULD DO.

I we MUST school our young, let it be predominantly for COMPETENCE in life as currently configured. That ahieves (as far as is reasonably practicable) program them for Mammon, with the motivated-bright simply provided with the means to self-teach, and the bulk of educational effort put into meeting the needs of the disaffected and dull.

'...to debate the big issues.'

Bet they don't. They never do. Instead, they'll argue about trivia effectively from the same point. What's always missing is any contrast, so the audience is lulled into witnessing what is in fact a faux-debate. There's no choice really. That's how liberal-democracy works. The audience, like the electorate, is offered a pseudo-choice. It's a one-party anarchistic system.

Some questions.

Why is Mr Gove a product of the Scottish education system talking about the English system. Does he think the Scottish system should be introduced in England or the Welsh?
When did the panel last use algebra or geometry in their daily life?
Will Chris Woodhead's company be allowed to run 'private' primary schools?
Should schools be worker co-operatives or consumer cooperatives?

I note that Newsnight is conducting a debate on education tonight so may I ask if any your esteemed journalists can ask the very obvious question - "why is the state providing any schools at all?"

Whatever, one's opinion of public services at least they can be argued to serve all of the citizens. The NHS serve the whole population be they young, old, rich or poor and the MOD serves the defence of the realm, etc.

Who do state schools serve? Only those irresponsible parents who make the personal life style decision to have children that they clearly cannot afford to have, at the expense of everyone else in society (be they single, childless or those responsible parents who are paying for their child's education already, etc).

If children want to have children then that it is up to them but I do not understand why the state is actively incentivising people (by providing paternity pay, state schools, council houses,tax credits, etc) to over populate an over crowded, resource-drained, polluted planet in general and our over congested little island in particular.

This is surely madness but the issue doesn't so much as warrant even the vaguest mention by politicians who are far too busy trying to buy the votes of the irresponsible to remember that there are others voters who have an entirely different view.

What's worse is that state schools seem to be where children go to learn to be stupid and they systematically fail the majority of children that attend them. This has been pointed by the Directors of Tesco and this is obvious to anyone who bothers to check the stats so not only are state schools immoral but they simply don't do what they say on the tin. So the question that really needs to be asked is why are any of us actually paying for them?

Even before the country was bankrupt, there was never ever enough money or resources for the state to provide education (and certainly not a decent one) but now isn't it time that we all faced the stark fact that the people who should be responsible for them and coughing up the money are the very "parents" who have chosen to have them?

The idea that parents cannot afford to pay £15,000m - £20,000 a year for a private school but will take £250,000 mortgage to purchase a house in a catchment area for a state school would be frankly laughable (for all the reasons I have given above) if this activity wasn't so common.

I shall watch your programme with interest but doubt that any of your journalists will dare to ask the question that increasing numbers of us are now thinking.

This is all about schools and privatisation (anti-statism):

Look into the history of Christine Gilbert, current head of OFSTED (both her and her husband). Then consider Tower Hamlets, which is where she worked last as CEO. This is now 23% White British at 7 years of age. Look at the rank order of achievement at all Key Stage SATs and GCSEs. Where does the British Muslim population come in this rank order? Now ask where the highest birth rate is in the country. Now ask why a school may deteriorate year on year? Might it be a function of its changing pupil intake via its composition?

Now, by raising inspection standards (as they have been), one increases the number of schools which one can put into Special Measures. When that's does, staff tend to leave. When staff leave one can 'rationalise' staffing complements, as that's where over 80% of a school budget goes, i.e on staffing. If a school fails in Special measures and is turned into an Academy, that's great for PFI, as it means its effectively on the way to being privatised.

It doesn't help to let people know that the evidence now suggests that ability is largely nature determined, as that flies in the face of holding teachers and schools responsible for low achievement, but if this were not the case, why is the best predictor of achievement at KS3 (14) and KS4 (15) a pupil's performance at Key Stage 2 (11) (or their CAT score)?

How about asking our politicians this? It's all evidence-based after all.

Take two:

Looking for a Stranger...

My God, Newsnight you didn't put much effort into the item about 'Chatroulette'. An opening sequence that Nationwide would have been proud of thirty years ago. Drop the casino analogy next time.

I think I would have 'nexted' someone in a mic and headphone gear that looked like it came from the Radio Museum. There was an interesting article to be mined there but obviously you only had thirty minutes of research time.

A freelance film maker on Paid Content made an excellent film about the new web site. His film looked like it was inspired and made by Woody Allen.
Your film was barely out of reach of a Carry On film. Will you return to the item in a year or so when people are using that service in a totally different way to how the designers intended? I doubt it.

If there is anything we have learned from the Internet is that users will use any service in a different way from how it is used in the early days.

Twitter has increased its membership by 1500% in the past year as multinationals have found it is the best tool for customer service.

Maybe Coke or Apple will find a way to promote a new product on Chatroulette. A prize to the first fifty to land on the Apple site gets a free iPhone.

I see by the end the company running the video link to the USA had enough of all of you and 'nexted you'. How embarrassing and in front of your 500,000 audience.

On my thirty minute 'test' of the site.
Brits and Americans not keen to talk.
French, Arabs, Koreans and Turkish - fine to talk.
What does that tell us about the British and Americans?
______________

18. cping500 'When did the panel last use algebra or geometry in their daily life?'

That's like asking when they last used logic in their daily life.

That's what algebra and geometry really teaches you know.

19. Jason Mead 'Who do state schools serve? Only those irresponsible parents who make the personal life style decision to have children that they clearly cannot afford to have, at the expense of everyone else in society (be they single, childless or those responsible parents who are paying for their child's education already, etc).'

The function/purpose is child-minding whilst their parents are out at work earning money to pay for their mortgages and other debts. Their progeny will then grow up to do the same. They serve banks and investors. The banks and retail businesses need consumers. The dumber the consumers the better - see sub-prime.

That's the main function of state schools. Privatisation of them will be even better for those making money out of consumers.

I'm not joking. It really is that ugly in liberal-democracies, and only vanity/stupidity/the human condition stops many from seeing this.

Gove must have a NN season ticket.

shall we ask what Justin is for?

we do not have a state education system but a child minding service. if education happens then it is by accident. Indeed the education act merely says a child [unless home learning] has to attend a place called 'a school'. it does not mean they have to learn or behave.

moral relativist philosophy [the pig society model] that dominates schools means they deny anything called the good. if you deny the good how can you have excellence? Because excellence for the moral relativist is a form of 'discrimination' because then not everyone is 'equal'. This is reinforced by the culture of praising ignorance by calling anyone keen on a subject an egghead or anorak. name calling NN journos regularly use. Remember JP's 'not another chart Steffi'?

how many editorial meetings have there been where there has been a requirement to sacrifice excellence and dumb down?

so we have a culture that hates education and the excellence it brings because it is seen as making 'inequalities'. Thus bright kids must be sacrificed upon the altar of the moral relativist's false idol of 'equality'.

24. jauntycyclist Are you stalking me? (bit of 'Polish' humour...;-)

24. jauntycyclist 'so we have a culture that hates education and the excellence it brings because it is seen as making 'inequalities'.

Hey that's nothing! We now have products of this culture who not only don't undrstand what they see and hear on TV, but who use what they misunderstand from watching TV to dismiss the very sources which TV uses!

At least Sir J is in the chair, so there is still hope that we can be spared the electioneering and party directives.

Until Schools get over the Ultra PC - translate to 'we're scared of being accused of upsetting anyone' - policies and practices education, under any party, can only remain on a downward spiral.

Let's stop pretending, and thereby giving feint and false hope to many, that everybody can have everything all the time .... A dream can only ever be a dream even if you put it in a manifesto!

As for the questions hoped to be asked ...... Carry on with 15 to 20 breaths per minute.

Don't waste your prayers!

THE DARK RIDERS ARE GATHERING

What manner of evil is afoot when Brown/Mandelson/Campbell call to their side the Darkest of them all - Tony Blair - AS AN ASSET IN AN ELECTION?

Do they not remember that, having stood for a full term in Sedgefield, 2005, Straight Guy Tony just DUMPED his constituency, to follow his (dark) star?

Is this the model for future Labour MPs?

25

its no secret the dominant religion in the uk is 'equality'. you can do all sorts of crimes against humanity in the name of equality?

Labour are psychologically unable to work for excellence because it contradicts the false idol of equality which they see as the highest idea of the mind.

so they hate universities [as excellences] unless everyone [or at least 50%] can go. exams have to be so easy no one fails.

i remember watching maoist films in the 80s about china where if one basketball team was beating another they had to let the other team score. the perfect ideal outcome for them was a draw. games were not about counter revolutionary ideas like competition by harmonious team building and healthy exercise. The teams had to clap each other at the end. clearly things have changed since then but that thought process is still at work in the uk.

i remember trying to find the leading authors and thinkers pushing multiculturalism and non competitive play and study so people are don't have hurt feelings as underachievers. To my surprise [at the time] these texts and authors were to be found under teacher training and education. that is their homeworld.

so school training is designed to hold back bright kids so that the slower ones do not feel bad. it is more important to have everyone not feel they are failing than to encourage people to be the best they can be.

having been to both state and private i was astounded at the state school to find teachers who did not believe in exams. naturally most people who listened to them and followed their methods failed their exams in a subconscious pleasing the teacher way. There are few rewards or social status for excellence at the state school.

this all goes back to the assumption equality rather than the good is the highest idea of the mind.

the equality religion penetrates everything in society. they say there is no highest good. So one can say there isn't much 'good' in the pig society model.

Paxman has become a caricature of himself. Is he trying to chair a debate or does he think he is the headmaster grilling naughty school children? Get rid of him or knock him down a peg or two. He is now the Jimmy Hill of political debate. Out of date and time to be led off stage by an understanding nephew. These issues are too important to be left in his grumpy old man hands. If he was in school he would be expelled for bullying. Its not big and its not delivering intelligent debate. For the record I am not a member of any political party.

Sorry
Just turned it off!
Another panel of three all talking over eachother.

I got my basic education from Estonia, University education (BA and MA degree) in Finland and facing dilemma in UK that I do not have a education from England.

Went to get my education from College and I say that the education what I'm reasiving now is not worth even penny. Finland I got my education for free and it was the best educational system where I ever have been!!!

I am on the fast track teaching programme and sincerely agree that Good teachers make the biggest impact to pupil achievement. But I have been dumbfounded by the amount of politics and bureaucracy that gets in the way of teaching.

Schools are there to help children find out what they are good at, how they can benefit society and give them the means to this and become life long learners.

We must have a system and curriculum that engage both pupils and teachers in learning that is relevant to their futures.

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One of the advantages of knowing something about behaviour is that one usually knows what to expect.

Look up LYSENKO.

He was wrong.

Everyone on the programme was a Lysenkoist.. but didn't know it.... ;-(

27. JAperson 'Until Schools get over the Ultra PC - translate to 'we're scared of being accused of upsetting anyone' - policies and practices education, under any party, can only remain on a downward spiral.'

Yup.

Excellent Jeremy tonight, and an interesting panel too. Out of all of them, Claude Littner spoke the most sense. I was surprised to learn from Justin's report that before school education was made compulsory, Britain was the most literate country in the world.......

TRANPARENCY AT THE BEEB?

Having purchased the software to make London buses semi-transparent, Newsnight is CLEARLY saving money to pay for it by firing its blog-logs aka up-loaders.

What a timid Tory. When the guy (with a 3rd)complained that the Tories had said only people with a 1st or 2nd class degree should teach, Gove should have rammed that home. Who would want any dunce with a 3rd teaching their kids? What was he doing at Uni - sleeping? Poorly educated people in a dumbed-down system are now teaching - is it likely they will teach better than they were taught - no ! Get real. We are reaping what has been sown and no one is brave enough to challenge the likes of the guy with the 3rd and tell him it isn't his 'right' (or the right of anyone with a 3rd) to be in a particular profession - they never earned the right. the word 'twit' suited Mr 3rd and Mr Gove. Ed Balls is pathetic - not much hope for education is there?

EDUCATIONAL VIDEO TO BE SENT TO ALL SCHOOLS BY THE 'MINISTRY OF BALLS'.

The video will show Big Ed behaving like an unprincipled little kid, on Newsnight, as a lesson to children HOW NOT TO BEHAVE.

@ Grocergirl #30 - Jeremy was asking the relevant questions to the relevant person regarding schools. He examined each panelist fairly and thoroughly. He is one of the top journalists in the world, and certainly isn't "Jimmy Hill!"

Why do I suspect you may have been cross examined by Jeremy in the past?

Spineless Paxman : was this the Ed Balls show on education ? Balls ran rough-shod over everyone inxcluding Paxman : motor-mouth talked over everyone as is his deliberate habit , and Paxman folded . Utterly pathetic . Paxman , get a grip of your programme and contol Balls .
If you can't , I will happpily do it !

BRILLIANT JEREMY ALWAYS RELIABLE - A PREDICTABLE PERFORMANCE (#30)

Not only am I without party affiliation Grocergirl, I keep writing 'SPOIL PARTY GAMES'!

As for Paxo, he is NOT a caricature, he is a very naughty boy. He has reached that media position where he would get paid (prodigiously) if he only picked his nose. To caricature himself, would require far more energy than he is prepared to put in.

Do you sell much Paxo? Word is it's not as palatable as it was?

Pretty good Sir J, A lot better than I thought it would be, but still a fair way to go.

Perhaps future 'specials' will get further thru' the waffle, let's hope so?

Question: Just what Galaxy is Mr Gove from?

Pedantry over reality, not much different from most of the other Nu Con promises stroke policies!

Re-establish discipline (No, not corporal punishment! ) and set the three r's sic in stone before leaving primary (Sorry what's that word again? .... Primary, what does that mean? Something essential, and essentially, before secondary perhaps? ) and the system will be sorted!

Period.

Education is about broadening peoples minds and horizons. By being introduced to more things i.e. learning about why and how things work. Schools should be places where questioning should be encouraged and a place where questions can be answered. Schools should be a place of encouragement, motivation but most of all a place of discipline and respect. A recent TV programme where misbehaving students were sent to a 1940s style school (look it up). This social experiment showing proof that our school pupils can be saved.

The problems we see with regards to lack of respect towards teachers and any authoritative figures, is due to the failure of our penal system whereby there are too many laws protecting the youth from adults. This therefore creates a barrier between adults and children, where children can do what they want, when they please, to whoever they wish and it prevents effective communication in areas such as classrooms and the workplace.

Nobody wants to see our schools fail or wish our children to be considered uneducated. Nobody wants to see our country look 'dumb' and useless.

Media governs young peoples lives. Adverts, pop idol, music videos, Americanisation, etc. These encourage the way young people talk, walk, dress and feel as though they have to behave. BUT, while we have the youth in our schools, WE govern their lives.

Therefore the most effective way we can solve the problems faced with regards to schools and education, is to CHANGE the methods of discipline, taking a leaf from the book of 1940s style schooling.

PLEASE NOTE our children in schools WANT DISCIPLINE, they want direction, they want to be told and want to be spoon fed information.

With regards to teachers, they should all be experts in their field with thorough understanding enabling them to reiterate the same teaching differently (giving more than one interpretation), thereby catering for different student at different levels of understanding.

Come on!! we can do this! People in other countries admire us, the way we talk, our courtesy, our manners and etiquete. Let's prove that we are the best educated! :o)

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QUESTIONING AND THE INSTITUTIONAL ETHOS (#45)

To control the many with a few, you must institutionalise. This obviates questioning. I questioned teachers and 'school' itself, both as pupil and parent. They didn't take kindly.

#39 I have no degree. When my boys were stuck on maths, I not only taught, them but devised the techniques from scratch. Intelligence is not schooling (at any level) and certainly not qualifications. I was instrumental in the founding and running of a viable business, through several recessions and decades. Orthodoxy can seriously constrain.

Ed Balls was a little too smug for my liking. It's a real put off when a politician speaks with a smirk on his face probably thinking: 'Look at me, aren't I clever, am I not on to something much better than the man next to me?, etc'.

Michael Gove and Jeremy managed somehow to make him lose that smirk with the discussion subsequently becoming a little more reasonable. One wouldn't expect politicians from opposite parties to sudenly become all friendly but why do they so often fail to listen properly and then respond with thought out criticism? Even the bloggers, as evident above, carry on with cheap scoring arguments having a go at either Ed or Michael or Jeremy for that matter. I can just imagine them writing their cheapos with a smirk on their face.

Apart from the squabbling whereby the squabbling parties lost out on making their points across as one couldn't fully hear what they were attempting to say, all in all I thought it was a good programme which pointed out the worst failings of the current education system ase well as some positive achievements and positive ideas about the future as expressed both in the studio and by the pupils.

I've written a ditty about education but will not be able to post it until April although I doubt it whether anybody is really interested in my ditties anyway.

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#47

Barriesingleton

I can well believe that you were able to do all those things you describe. But then you seem to have been born with natural talents, obviously for business, working things out for yourself and poetry shining through without you having had to obtain any specific qualitifications in them. But, how many people are endowed with strong enough abilities not to have to bother with too much education?
.
The other day I spoke to a new friend who, it turns out, has a real talent for painting. I've some photos of some of those and they really do show precision of her brush but also depth. The first ever painting she did was of a horse which, I understand, is one of the animals most difficult to 'transfer' onto canvas. On her mobile phone, I've also seen a few faces she painted and these looked almost as if she had snapped them with her mobile camera.

Auguste Rodin never managed to get to the Beaux Arts Acadmie in Paris and look at his achievements with his Thinker and The Kiss being one of the widely known sculptures in the world.

So, I know what you mean but I wouldn't so readily knock out the need for a sound and encouraging educational system for all.

Mad Madame Mim

#52 correction

She showed me some photos of a few of those and they really do show not only precision of her paint brush but also depth, etc

Barrie Singleton

I wonder whether you could enlighten me on why you take such pleasure at knocking Jeremy Paxman?

Why not, instead, share with us more positive things which are not fuelled by jealousy?

mim

#52 No need for edcuation if one's got it

I think I've failed to mention that my new friend with a REAL TALENT FOR PAINTING has not even attended one evening class 'instructing' her how to use her paint brushes....

mim

The best antidote for a crackpot
Is not to give them a TV spot
And make them all spotty with shame
As well as send them well on their way

mim

Mr B Singleton

Coming to think of it, what I'm trying to do above is to encourage you not to see things only from your own narrow perspective.

The issue of seeing things from different angles and not being restrained by one's own 'nature' and sociocultural background has dominated my thinking for a very long time indeed. I would even dare to say that it all started in my childhood. This may be the reason why it is impossible to pigeonhole me down, etc.

I know how to be faithful to a close group of friends and family but otherwise I'd like to think I'm free spirited though well anchored in reality.

mim

JUST POSSIBLY (#52)

Many go into the school sausage-machine 'sharp' and come out 'blunt'. Perhaps my particular 'skill' was I didn't 'let them get me'.

#55- Would you care to inform us who your new friend is so we can inform her about what she can expect. That may sound flippant, sarcastic and down right wrong but should be taken seriously and considered on a more wider level. The other side of the coin for care in the community.

According to my wall calendar, the First Day of Spring falls on my birthday. I thought it was the day after.

mim

I was a teacher for 20 years some, but when I read the 1988 Act and saw the damage it's intoduction wrought,I realised that there was no point in my remaining involved.I was interested enough in last night's program to want to read blogs and post a comment.I now see there is no point in my further involvement here, since the debate is dominated by people who obviously know far more than anyone else about human nature, society, the meaning of existence and the function of education than I do.From the comments above,it is clear that we should now adopt policies designed by the Third Reich.What a shame my dad's generation sacrificed so much to defeat fascism, when so many of their grandchildren now appear to wholeheartedly support that ideology.Good luck to you if you really want what you say you want.You have already got the mess you deserve because you prefer ignorance and prejudice to education and enlightenment anyway.

#58

Well, then it's a case of making sure it doesn't happen by 'building it' into the system.

In fact, last night's programme pointed it out several times though not putting it the way you are.

mim

Three things became clear from last night's show:
1. The sorry state of (a lot of) our teachers - who was that barely comprehensible little man on the end? A teacher? And Mr 3rd that saw himself as more than qualified for teaching - you are hard pushed to become a lawyer with a 3rd, but you can take control of our country's future!
2. The lack of political will power to do the necessary root and branch reforms of weeding out poor teachers, instilling discipline and focusing on 3Rs.
3. The current levels of red tape. A good friend of mine applied to Teach First to teach maths. She has a 2.1 in politics and economics from Oxford. She was accepted, and got the whole way through the process before being told at the last minute that she could not teach maths at GCSE as she did not have a maths A level, despite having the (harder) IB!! Crazy!

#58 again

I don't know whether you realise but 2 of my London University lecturers are still, after apr. 23 years, are still after me trying to clobber me down and blunt out.

It looks to me Barrie that you could further sharpen your wits with regard to my situation, with my 'philosophy' laid out as above and already commuted heart wise.

mim

The education debate was a complete waste of time for viewers outside England. The only reference to the other countries of the UK was when Paxman said we could get info from the web. ... tantamount to saying go away if you are not from England. Surely the more appropriate thing to say would be to warn viewers outside England that as the topic is a devolved item , then it would be a waste of time watching it. With the General Election fast approaching I hope a better effort will be made to draw viewers attention to what is irrelevant to them and what is not.

#61

What a shame you seem so overwhelmed by opinions you perhaps do not understand that your only course of action is to behave like an MP. ie denounce all that you believe is wrong (with what everyone else does or thinks) without having the courage to offer any positive options in detail.

I would be interested to hear what you think is needed to bring Education in the back on track. Who needs educating, where, by whom and to what level and how this should be measured?

29. jauntycyclist 'i remember trying to find the leading authors and thinkers pushing multiculturalism and non competitive play and study so people are don't have hurt feelings as underachievers. To my surprise [at the time] these texts and authors were to be found under teacher training and education. that is their homeworld.'

It would have been implicit in their 60s through 80s training alas. It was absorbed without their seeing this, as teaching and learning was taught as a 100% empty bucket filling vocation. This is of course a very old, vulgar Marxist, idea, which has nothing to do with the evidence. It's bad teaching in fact.

Even today, and as was seen by those really able to pay attention last night, most people today are still Lysenkoism. They think they can change people with words and 'experiences'.

They really don't understand that this is not how learning works. learning is just what happens when behaviours are emitted, selected, and shaped/reinforced by the environment (including teachers) but those words are chosen carefully, and have a technical meaning. Behaviours are emitted at rates, i.e. they are expressed, like eye and hair colour.

Have a look for the old Standards Site in Google ( is a modified modern version, sadly, they have edited it down).

Newsnight did a very revealing FOI piece a few years ago about 'Institutional Racism in schools' as an alleged explanation for high Exclusion rates in some BME groups. This was a forced release from the DfES. What was most interesting was who was being cited as an official guru. Look into it, a Caribbean Marxist convict.

The problem is that these cadres of educationalists (and as I say, nearly all in the professional even today naively think like this even though it is empirically wrong), don't see how biased they are because the other side of learning, as selection, i.e. the one which is actually based on the evidence, isn't taught very well, if taught at all.

Charter Schools in the USA, as the young teacher said above the noise - only appear to work because they dump their failures through the back door. They doctor their reports which are models of spin. If anyone wants to see (so called) 'loony left' ideology, look there, but it's note - it's being used to nobble state education as in the USA that's called Public School education. It's being done to create private schools, in order to make money. What sort of leftism is that? In fact, these are right wing anarchists (Trots). Unless I'm very much mistaken, that's what the Groves of this world seem to be up to. This is also how the original, Bolshevik revolution in Russia was waged in the early years on behalf of Germany, i.e. as a means to replace a statist (Tsarist) regime, and for the benefit of the disgruntled regime changers. Most people still don't appreciate that Stalin was the one who stopped that in the late 1920s - he was essentially Old Labour!. he made himself very unpopular with the people who were behind the original revolution. Both at home and abroad in the USA.

Finally, we wary of how films about China were presented in the West.

32. mette 'Went to get my education from College and I say that the education what I'm reasiving now is not worth even penny. Finland I got my education for free and it was the best educational system where I ever have been!!!'

It shpws up in the OECD PISA figures too. Do you know why that is? Clue: it has nothing to do with teachers per se although they too are a product of their 'environment'. If you can, see if you can find the audio file 'On Having A Poem'.

45. vote me in change the world 'Nobody wants to see our schools fail or wish our children to be considered uneducated. Nobody wants to see our country look 'dumb' and useless.'

Yes they do!

The state asset-stripping farmers of consumers do. Really. They don't want bright people in any great numbers as these make for far too discerning consumers. There is no UK anymore as it has largely been devolved (reginal Development Agencies next, see Scotland, Wales, NI). Power has also moved to the EU since the Lisbon Treaty (Miliband's baby).

Wake up, 'nationalism' is a dirty word just like 'protectionism'. What Gove and Balls are doing is lowering population mean ability whilst raising school inspection standards. This will privatise more of the state assets.

OK?

47. barriesingleton 'Intelligence is not schooling (at any level) and certainly not qualifications.'

True. But here's a thought: given that this is true, and given that the evdiednce to endorse the statement is now so readily available to anyone who wants to see why it is true, why do so many people seem to think otherwise, and why do our educationalists and politicians all talk as if it were not true?

can you ask someone to tell Jeremy to sit up straight. I have noticed that in studio discussions he tends to sit back and then it becomes a sort of 'sprawl' and it doesn't look very dignified and well, they bore him a bit and that applied last night with Gove, Balls and the other chappie droning on, well, they sent me to sleep so maybe Jeremy's sprawl spoke for most of us.....

61. novalidopinion 'I was a teacher for 20 years some..I now see there is no point in my further involvement here, since the debate is dominated by people who obviously know far more than anyone else about human nature, society, the meaning of existence and the function of education than I do.'

Perhaps you were just badly trained? Your opinions seem ill-formed indeed.

Perhaps what was missing from your education was research into Individual Differences and how learning works. That research was done largely by British and US behaviour orientated psychologists. It is why we ende dup with the three streams of education (although the technical colleges faltered). The introduction of the National Curriculum and SATa (via the 1988 Act) was in fact a sound effort to re-establish something sensible given the available evidence. That evidence is largely the work of British psychologists (who gave us most of the statistical techniques we still use today). You might like to think about that instead of bandying about intimidating words like 'Third Reich' when selection and reinforcement of behaviours is mentioned, as it was generally those who undermined good education in the past who did that. Education is about skilled selection and shaping of behaviours, i.e. making the best of what people are born with (See SEN for a clue). It is not alchemy.

61. novalidopinion 'What a shame my dad's generation sacrificed so much to defeat fascism, when so many of their grandchildren now appear to wholeheartedly support that ideology.'

The hallmark of ideological thinking is that it is irrationally resistant to . The point is that after decades of projects like Head Start and now Sure Start, the results are damning. The reason why is now pretty well understood, but it was understood pretty early in the C20th too. Now, most research scientists ignore ideologues and just try to get on with their work. The general public doesn't hear about this issue anymore, mainly because the scientists prefer to avoid emotional people, and because those in publicly funded institutions (like universities) subject to Equality etc legislation risk being hounded out of their jobs .

That's why we are in such a mess. Ideologues rule the roost at the expense of truth. It's why science is in trouble too.

Here's a sad bellwether of just how corrupt our system has become.

There was a time when if an educated person put forth an opinion and someone else offered something which highlighted what was wrong with that opinion, the former would say 'thank you'. That was, I suggest, because educated people knew that the opinions which they proffered were in fact objective propositions, i.e. independent of themselves, and that if they thereby ended up with more informed opinions, it was like receiving a gift from someone. Today, it seems, ever more people just argue to preserve their prejudices! They actually resent being better informed i.e educated!

#30

75. mademoiselle_h 'His promotion of the Swedish style free schools sounded rather patchy, maybe he should be given another chance to expand on the details of the concept to show he had a plan to make it all work under the current system.'

Have you ever been to Sweden or Finland? Their tend to be either White Europeans or bright people from elsewhere. Think about it, why else would anyone want to go and live there? They didn't have a Commonwealth. The problem which the UK and USA now has is that they encouraged lots of low-skilled immigration at a time when future manual jobs were going into decline because of a) automation and b) outsourcing abroad.

That is the truth. Clear the fog.

76. mademoiselle_h Paxman doesn't ask the really crucial questions (anymore), the closest he came last night was in referring to the Head Teacher as not just being polite! The latter knows that there is a major problem. To give credit where due, I have seen Maitlis, Esler and Sopel all do that, and at times, against what could be perceived to go against their own ethnic self-interest. For that, they all earned my respect. But I wish all NN presenters would ask more penetrating questions, as there's enough evidence out there, as many well educated people will be all too aware. Newsnight would be regarded with greater respect if it faced/aired the facts rather than capitulated to populist/Cowellist opinion. The cost of not doing so is to encourage ignorance by omission.

'Forget high-speed trains, we need local services that work
Fast trains are like fast food: the wrong diet for healthy growth'

.

Might he be onto something?