91Èȱ¬

'UK forces are likely to operate more closely with France and other European partners in future conflicts, a defence paper on military reform suggested today.'

Interesting. Does that mean that since ratifying Lisbon, (what little is left of) the UK can no longer legally go it alone in support of the USA, as it did over Iraq?

UK needs to work more closely with fellow EU members in more than just the military sphere; the European "project" will need be more cohesive as a unit and in some areas such as energy, become supra-national.

The globalisation of economic activity renders narrow "national" interests obsolete.

The "special" arrangement whereby the US barked and the UK wagged its tail is clearly now dead and gone.

Vive l'europe!

"Able people tend to specialise."

Like Wittgenstein, Da Vinci, Cantona?

"British Defence."

Against what, exactly?

This is doublespeak for punching above our weight and failing, interfering in other countries' internal issues and deluding ourselves that an Empire is at risk.

The terror argument is bunk. We are not keeping our streets safe by messing about in Afghanistan.

On the contrary, we're fuelling the fires of one issue zealotry by not, for instance, asking questions at the UN about the resolutions Israel has flouted for years.

Building aircraft carriers when British troops still buy their own desert boots kinda says it all.

Let's keep it real.

Sorry, am I allowed to mention Israel?

WHY DO YOU TERM CHURCH DOGMA 'PHOBIC'?

Is it not simply dogmatic?

Perhaps religion-based getinal mutilation is 'phobic' in essence; those who cirmucise, being dickophobic and mothers who butcher daughters, fannyophobic, perhaps?

A phobia is an IRRATIONAL fear, like thinking Ethical Man has moved into your neighbourhood. PLEASE try not to get phobia mixed up with anathema and distaste. There is stuff being espoused, in the land of my birth, that I find neither looks, nor smells, right. On having it thrust at me daily, I discover it makes little biological sense either. On this basis I choose to avoid it - real, portrayed, or described, AND I WILL NOT BE CATEGORISED 'PHOBIC' ON THAT ACCOUNT. So be warned: implying that I am irrational, fearful, or both, is defamatory. With a bit of legal chicanery, I might even manage DISCRIMINATORY! At a further push I reckon it will stretch to BARRIEPHOBIA. Tread carefully.

PS Anyone found out who, in our halls of legislative idiocy, put degrees of separation into the Civil Partnership rules? Did they not realise there can be no progeny? NOW THAT IS IRRATIONAL.

4. kashibeyaz 'Sorry, am I allowed to mention Israel?'

Only if you have something flattering to say. Anything else is anti-semitic.

Rule:- Imagine you're dealing with a woman and you won't go wrong.

#5

barriesinglephobia

It's not clear from your post who it is exactly that you're warning/?/

mim

Statist, the military need human shields from other countries, and I think the female reference is completely wrong, remember we are dealing with 'The Chosen People' though I know it's easy to get them confused with 'The Master Race' so think of it like dealing with Tony Blair, any insane belief or excuse that is given for what they are doing equals legality and morality, either you agree or you die and it doesn't matter if you're some poor Palestinian kid, an Iraqi family, David Kelly or Robin Cook.

'Britain is one of world's most unfriendly countries towards children'?


What complete and utter rubbish - if only.

The truth is that our entire society actually encourages as many people as possible to become parents and pump out as many unwanted children as possible. This is true even if the people in question are good parents or not (think Baby Peter, Shannon Matthews, the recent case in Edlington or the vast legion of so-called "parents" paraded on Jeremy Kyle).

Let's nail the myth that we have anything like equality in this country.

We do not have equality - if you're a parent then you are far more equal than those hard working mugs who responsibly choose not to over-populate the planet or our tiny, over crowded, congested little island.

For example, if a working person makes the personal life style decision of bringing another human being into existence then they will get paternity pay or maternity pay. In other words, if you're childless, an employer or one of the poor employees who have to pick up the slack, then you will pay tax (or in the case of the employer, pay from the company budget) for an individual, personal decision that is supposed to have nothing to do with anyone else.

The parent will then demand that there are schools provided by the state, again at the massive expense of the tax payer (even if they are childless) because that "parent" is irresponsible enough to think that everyone else in society should be paying for their child's education.

And let's not mention, council houses, the benefits and welfare dependents.

I yearn for genuine equality where someone who is single or childless are treated exactly the same as those who choose to get married or have children or get married and have children but I see no political party that is remotely interested in our vote.

People will have children regardless of what others think but I do not understand why people are incentivised by the state to have children through the use of paternity / maternity pay, tax credits, child benefit, council house or providing them with schools. Especially when we live on a resource-drained, polluted, environmentally degraded planet with an exponentially growing and unsustainable population of 6 Billion+.

This way of life cannot continue for the several reasons given by David Attenborough on an excellent Horizon documentary that closely examined the issue of over=population. There is absolutely no reason to listen to environmental lobby and reduce our consumption if politicians are not prepared to deal with this particular elephant-in-the-room and reduce the number of consumers there are in the first place.

I, for one, will do absolutely nothing until this has been properly dealt with first.


BTW, Here's a little known fact - a massive 25% (lion's share) of land fills are taken up with nothing but baby's nappies? This is due to their disposable nature and because of the way nappies are made, they are not bio-degradable. Shouldn't families, therefore, be paying more for the disposal of their rubbish?

Is that child unfriendly? Probably, but it also happens to be fair.

2. kashibeyaz 'Like Wittgenstein, Da Vinci, Cantona?'

You left off Stephen Fry.

Polymathy is probably, and there are many who are overly eager to take credit where it just is not due.

#2

kashibeyaz

Let's not exaggerate. It's good to hear that the UK and EU are going to cooperate more closely but this should not undermine our links /whether you call them special is not particulary important/ with the USA.

mim

P.S. Expansion on the 'special links':

Sometimes they are specially close but not all of the time. It depends not only on this or that President. Sometimes the links can be superficially 'special', like Tony Blair and George W Bush 'praying together', whatever the reasons for TB attacking Sadam Hussain.

It looks like my ditties do have some impact
Although I cannot claim 100% this is the fact
But it does seem that they are quoted
Here and there into speeches converted

P.S.

Occasionally I choose not to use punctuation marks leaving it for the presumed readers when to pause, etc, and feel the rhythm.

And one other thing. I know that some people do try their best to undermine me and 'put me in my place'. But, have I ever demanded anything for them, apart from asking Jeremy whether, if they are worth anything, he could possibly do something about the copyright?

I post them to share them, that's all, and if they are enjoyed, provoke thought or quoted, as above, it's already a form of reward in itself.

mim

9. Jason Mead 'This way of life cannot continue for the several reasons given by David Attenborough on an excellent Horizon documentary that closely examined the issue of over=population.'

Some of what you write above is true, but some is not. For instance, as I understand it (having been an avid NN blog reader), whilst it is indeed true that there is a growing world population, this is not true of many countries close to home. All countries are not in fact equal. Exactly the opposite is the case in fact. I respectfully advise you to look into this more closely and to think again.

Tim Whewell has travelled to Uganda where an attempt to punish "aggravated homosexuality" with the death penalty has led to outrage across the world. What lies behind the homophobic campaign?'

It's illegal in .

So, at least in some countries, there will be no outrage. That doesn't make for edgy reporting, but it does wonders for Islam and anti-liberal bashing.

How about a little more 'transparent' reporting, and less hyperbole/campaigning, Newsnight?

I'm not sure whether the attached link will be judged commercial or not but, having seen 'Avatar' I've found a London press conference with J Cameron and the main actors which I think is interesting to read:

Avatar Press Conference In London
Posted on December 15, 2009 at 12:04 am by lkeddie | Permalink

#16

It turns out not to be the link itself but it can be easily found on the internet.

mim

ironic, isn't it?

JP asking how Hannan would feel re Britain using the Euro, immediately followed by what if if the French were to run Britain's defense.

LOL.

btw Mr Hannan, get real; I've a German passport and live in the UK, and can state with some confidence that you're talking straight out of that orifice which I cannot name here because of the moderation.

Is the whole European project at risk because the Greeks are drinking retsina, ouzo and metaxa brandy? Of course not! What a load of tosh ..

Almost as stupid was Justin Rowlatt's suggestion that the Irish Celtic Tiger was doomed because they had been splurging out on Guinness .....

You then lined up a bunch of appalling anti-European dinosaurs led by the incredibly right-wing Ruth Lea to pronounce the Euro dead .......

And then Jeremy started kicking the French .... Christine Lagarde
would not be amused guys and Greece does not have nuclear triremes.

Greece has however had to cope with two years of serious drought -
curious that the man with the green tie never mentioned that cost?

Portillo is wrong.

We did not fail in Basra.
He needs to listen to the evidence given at the
Iraq enquiry by Sir Jock Stirrup.

What planet is Camila living on?
She is talking nonsense.

'I want a child. It's my right.'

'I can't raise it (that's your job) and don't have any money - so give me some.'

'If he does anything wrong; it's your fault.'

'Touch him and I'll have you arrested.'

Late-30s, single and clucky? Here, have some IVF. Late-30s, lesbian and clucky? Here, have double the IVF.

CAMILLA ON PLANET MAMMON (#20)

Very astute of you Ron, to spot that Camilla is on the wrong planet. She really should adjust to the reality that all life is gifted from Mammon and must be baptised into educational commitment, then confirmed through a degree qualification. If she cannot adapt, she should ship out to some planet where childhood is an end in itself, and people like her just love kids until they mature into stable adults. Thank Mammon it won't happen here.

iraq inquiry

after watching the evidence of Sir Kevin Tebbit there should be a root and branch purge of the FO otherwise these wars will go on. they are just so commited to the neocon rot that they are unreformable. i have always said the FO should give up its empire buildings and be moved into a modest modern office to reflect the current realities. spend enough time among the oil paintings of empire and its bound to send you dipsy lala and think you are some kind of imperial roman in a toga.

as for Reid. what was he on about. He says there are always doubts about intelligence yet the country and parliament was told there is no doubt. he says it was thought through. which is why we are losing?

what has become a theme is this secret doctrine of getting rid of 'fascist dictators' through military means agenda that labour have. He even brought up the nazis as if these are the same kind of wars. I suppose it makes sense when you understand many in cabinet were some kind of communist. an ideology that would blind them to common sense if they thought they could indulge their lefty fantasy as if they were actors in some 1940s soviet war film.

john reid definitely had some kind of war movie going on in his head. he even admitted to be incompetent not knowing how a government should be run.

why the inquiry let him ramble on with his irrelevant trotspeak can perhaps be put down to that they wanted a quiet session in which to sleep.

I've learned a few interesting things on tonight's programme in particular although they may not be true as expressed in some of the posts above.

First of all, the suggestion that if the Greek economy collapses the whole Eurozone countries my suffer consequentially leading to the collapse of the Euro. Personally, I thought this a bit of exaggaration but perhaps this is true.

Then the suggestion that the divergencies between the former enemies of the UK and France were still significant and perhaps irreconciliable at least in terms of military cooperation between the two countries./?/

With regard to whether the majority of children in this country are disliked and maltreated one way or another also seems completely exaggerated which does not mean that the society as a whole shouldn't make more effort into protecting and helping the 1.5 million kids in vulnerable situations.

mim

Sitting in front of and looking at a quote from Shakespeare which features on a pencil case that I bought at the Globe and which reads: 'I'll call for pen and ink and write my mind, I came up with the following:

Give me some music on iTunes
And I will express my soul,
Moving in tune with my body.
One of my favourite hobbies
Whether on ice, floor or resting
And not just my nature’s calling
As sex without mind is nothing.

mim

Outstanding debate by Jeremy with Portillo & Durand and also Hannan & Kamm.

I was shocked at Tim's report - the death sentence for being gay? In the 21st century...according to



"Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, United Arab Emirates, Sudan, Nigeria, Mauritania - gays and lesbians are punished with the death penalty."

All these countries have Islam as its most dominant religion, with Sharia law in the majority, hence they have the death penalty. I had not expected Uganda (with about 12% of its population as Muslim) would give a death sentence for being gay. Wake up Uganda - it's 2010!

As for Camilla B - I think I have sustained retinal damage from her dress. And yes, she was on another planet :p

23. jauntycyclist 'what has become a theme is this secret doctrine of getting rid of 'fascist dictators' through military means agenda that labour have. He even brought up the nazis as if these are the same kind of wars. I suppose it makes sense when you understand many in cabinet were some kind of communist...why the inquiry let him ramble on with his irrelevant trotspeak can perhaps be put down to that they wanted a quiet session in which to sleep.'

Some kind of communist is spot on - they are mainly the type which believe in power from the bottom up, i.e wreckers who would have Britain tuned into a bunch of Soviets and run like (i.e. anything to keep regulators i.e. the state) out.

In other words, there would be more of what we've had for years, more of the deceit which was fueled and hidden by securitization and spin.

Stalin would be spinning in his grave faster than Bevin, but few will grasp what that means these days as they were 'evil-doing tyrannical dictators' as you the Campbells of this world would have us say.


20,22 - Yes, she appears to be on a mission: - if one states and defends aspirational thoughts, one is onto a winner with dreamers, and can make realists look bad.

mosquito ringtones-haha so funny.

test out your age by trying to the hear the 3 different sounds. i can only hear the first one.

Mosquito ringtone

defence

the current model of foreign policy is 'getting rid of fascist governments' also know under its mask as 'liberal interventionism' or bringing democracy' so they now want to bend and twist the british armed forces to fit that objective rather than defending the uk and its nato responsibilities.

they do not seemed bothered that 'liberal interventionism' also means bankrupting the uk through decades of what they call nation building. There is no science of nation building. The govt's only model is to destroy places and then get the UN to put humpty back together again.

the role of the british armed services is to defend the uk either on its own or in an alliance not be the plaything for fanatical crusading ideologues with a bias against islam.

the uk should not be planning for further crusading wars. JP had it right that the uk needs to give up the tramlines of monarchist imperialism. which is why moving the FO out of carlton house and into a sober modern building would begin to set the tone for where the uk really is in the world.

the MOD needs closing down and starting again. it is unreformable. It's continual sabotage of the uk military has gone on for too long [decades] for it to be an accident.

Re Ugandan gays potentially facing the death penalty.

Absolutely shocking.

They should all be allowed to relocate to the UK for 'sexual asylum'!

Maybe Evan Davies could take this up with HMG here?

The bit where the Ugandan vicar proposed sending missionaries to the West and the UK in particular was truly priceless!

Oh dear, a slip up (or two) in 27. - I had meant to write 'as you might say' and then meant to change it to 'as the Campbells of this world would have us say'. No disrespect jauntycyclist.

Continuing with the theme of trouble-makers as foot-soldiers/activists for political/economic change, .

Whilst subversives come in many guises, and invariably work to the same agenda, do they always serve the same masters?

The death penalty for being gay: thats a bit strong. Britian needs to send that human rights activist and gay campaigner Peter thatchell to tell the Ugandens to embrace the gay life style...he'll be alright over there, as long as he dosen't stand under a tree whilst surrounded by a crowd. Why do we insist in telling other nations how they should govern themselves? Can we not leave them to evolve their own ideals. Uganda is a Christian country operating at a fundemental level. I always try and see the good in things I don't even agree with. The gay lifestyle keeps the numbers down...there is enough babies getting dropped into the world anyway.

THE NON-STICK FRYING PAN SPIN-OFF OF CHILCOT (#29)

I got the distinct impression, from at least one senior military gent, that, when the squaddies haven't had a fight for a while, ANY WAR WILL DO! Even if all they have is flip-flops for footwear, and frying-pans strapped fore and aft for body armour. Such is the gung-ho quality of the British fighting hero, he can't wait to be at 'em - any 'em!

The inescapable truth is that, in civilised Britain, we have a feudal leadership and a barbaric underlying nature. Good 'ere innit!

33. barriesingleton 'Good 'ere innit!'

Is Newbury (or are you) a 'Strange Attractor'?

I'm still musing over a recent post from you which asserted that there are lots of smart/articulate etc females in your vicinity. The image I have is a hybrid Strange Attractor/Black Hole - a bit like my conception of The House of Lords.

As to WarkNight - perhaps turning the volume down and using subtitles might mitigate your viewing displeasure?

Efendim, but I did not miss out Fry baby. He is not fit to lick the cheeks of the examples given.

why do we have it in for the French? We have more in common with them than we do with the Yanks, the Americans get us involved in unpopular wars but they do bail us out a few times 1917 and 1942 but the French are with us against the Germans in two world wars and apart from the unpleasantness at Agincourt and Waterloo and a few other minor skirmishes we should be standing firm with our French brothers, they invaded us in 1066 so a little of that mixed blood must still be coursing through our veins so now we are to throw in our lot defensively speaking with the Gaulls so let us welcome them with a hug instead of a shrug....

#33 barrie

Possibly the UK could do with more gays in the army???

...maybe even a new regiment, the 'The Ugandan Lancers' perhaps!

HAVE CAR WILL TRAVEL - HAVE SUBTITLES WILL SAMPLE (#34)

60 mile radius of Newbury yields a good catch - includes one CAB volunteer and a Churchill Travelling Fellow. Add Southern Scotland, and I can claim a couple more. Not that I am bragging of course.
'Strange' I acknowledge freely.

Success will depend if the subtitles are using speech-recognition software. Other programs throw up some prize errors; Kirsty should be able to fuse the circuit-board. Thanks for the tip.

barriesingleton - Having said that, the subtitles to the 91Èȱ¬ 14:00 News (covering the Toyota recall because of the faulty accelerator pedal), went something like this:

Anchorperson: 'So, in the meantime, should owners still drive their cars?'

Toyotaperson: 'Yes, unless they are worried about their pet dog'.

Subtitles do reduce my viewing displeasure these days, for one, it cuts out the whining/emoting, and often substitutes material which makes far more sense!

Adapting our defence to a dangerous new world": AIR POWER FROM THE SEA- THE CASE FOR CONVENTIONAL WEAPONS' TRIDENT SUCCESSOR SUBMARINES

PART 2:

Members of the US Congress have indicated in a recent report that they want the design of the Common Missile Compartment (CMC)- intended for use in both the UK's Vanguard SSBN successors and the US Navy's Ohio class SSBN/SSGN successors- to be such so as to enable CMC's to cheaply, efficiently and relatively easily switch between the SSBN and SSGN mission profiles:



- "Navy Attack Submarine Procurement: Background and Issues for Congress", October 21-2009:

[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

Page 14-

"...The committee believes that it is in the national interest to maintain the submarine design industrial capacity to begin development efforts for a new class of submarines which could either continue the mission of the current Ohio-class strategic submarines (SSBN) or serve as the next generation of tactical guided missile submarines (SSGN).

"The committee is also aware that the United States has agreements with the United Kingdom to jointly design and develop a common missile compartment (CMC) module which would be used by both countries for construction of next generation submarines.

"The committee supports both the development of the CMC and the cooperative manner in which research and design costs are being shared by the United States and the United Kingdom.

However, the committee is aware of the combatant commanders' desire for increased presence of the recently converted SSBN to SSGN submarines due to the significant tactical strike and special operations capability those platforms can deliver.

"Therefore, the committee strongly encourages the design of the CMC module account for a non-strategic use with minimal back-fitting...."
---------------------------------

- "China Naval Modernization: Implications for U.S. Navy Capabilities- Background and Issues for Congress", October 21-2009:

[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
- "Navy Irregular Warfare and Counterterrorism Operations: Background and Issues for Congress", October 08-2009:

[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
---------------------------

Strategies for maintaining the UK's submarine- & other military vessel types & related technologies- innovation, design & construction capabilities several decades into the future should prominently factor into decisions made regarding the Trident/Vanguard submarine successor issues...

Similarly, decision-making processes regarding Trident/Vanguard successor design issues should be considering the UK's global 'industrial, technological and military competence and capabilities' profiles and how whatever decisions are made will effect these profiles...




_______________
Roderick V. Louis,
Vancouver, BC, Canada

"Adapting our defence to a dangerous new world": AIR POWER FROM THE SEA- THE CASE FOR CONVENTIONAL WEAPONS' TRIDENT SUCCESSOR SUBMARINES

PART 1:

The (Trident missile carrying) Vanguard submarine successor programme provides a cogent example of a UK defence spending issue that, if done right, would provide the UK with hugely increased capabilities to project deterrence and prosecute conventional and irregular warfare/counterterrorism operations around the world...

Labour's policy to substantially reduce the UK's (Trident or Trident successor) submarine launched nuclear ballistic missile capabilities doesn't require building only 3 Vanguard submarine successor subs to 'replace' today's 4 Vanguards since the new subs- at least today- are intended by the Labour govt to each have 25% less nuclear ballistic missile-tubes than each of today's 4 Vanguards (12 versus 16):



If 4 Vanguard successor subs are built (rather than 3) their total number of missile tubes will be only 48 (4 X 12) which equals the total number of missile tubes of 3 of today's Vanguards: 3 X 16= 48...

But why build only 4 Vanguard successors?

At least 8 are needed...

And these new subs are needed to be 'full-sized', IE: 24-missile-tube vessels (similar to the US's Ohio class and Ohio class successor subs), instead of the strategically-foolish 12-missile-tube models relatively recently 'decreed' by Labour...

If 8 Vanguard successor subs were built, then 4 could be tasked with a (Trident successor) nuclear ballistic missile submarine (SSBN) role with the other 4 fitted as conventional-warhead Tomahawk guided cruise missile subs (SSGN's)..

Experiences of the US have shown that 'dual tasking' of this type of submarine can be very productively facilitated:

Between 2003-2008, 4 of the US Navy's 18 Ohio class Trident nuclear ballistic missile subs (SSBN's) were refitted, converting these subs into SSGN's...

22 of each Ohio sub's 24 Trident nuclear ballistic missile tubes were each fitted to accomodate and fire 7 Tomahawk conventional warhead cruise missiles, instead of their previous configuration allowing for 'only' one Trident II nuclear ballistic missile to be accomodated per tube...

As a result, each refitted Ohio can be armed with up to 154 Tomahawk cruise missiles (each one carrying a 1000 pound warhead) as compared to the barely 1/2 a dozen maximum number of Tomahawks that current Vanguards and entering-service/undergoing construction Astute SSN's can be armed with...

The other 2 missile tubes on each refitted Ohio sub were converted to serve as lockout chambers for Special Forces personnel. Each of these two missile tube chambers has been equipped to connect to an Advanced US Navy SEAL Delivery System (ASDS) or Dry Deck Shelter (DDS).

Other spaces on each sub have been converted to berth and support 66 Special Forces personnel.

As a result of their retrofits, for over 2-years the 4 refitted Ohio's have been usefully deployed as conventional warhead Tomahawk cruise missile-armed/special forces' units-carrying (SSGN) subs:

"The (US) Navy's Premiere Counterterrorism Tool":



"Navy Trident Submarine Conversion (SSGN) Program: Background and Issues for Congress" October 02-2008:

[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]



8 Vanguard successors coupled with the 7 Astute attack subs (SSN's) very belatedly being built/undergoing sea trials for the Royal Navy would provide the country with force-projection capabilities that would legitimately give serious pause to known and potential state and non-state aggressors in the future and would at least partially make up for the egregious damages done to the RN's surface combatant strength and capabilities over the last 12-years...

Damages that won't in the least be rectified by the 6 Type-45 Destroyers and 2 aircraft carriers that Labour has begrudgingly committed highly inadaquate funding for the construction of: these urgently needed warships are being built without basic, industry-standard weapons, sensors, communications, ship self-defence and damage control systems- due to Labour govt design-interference and in order to save money...

CONTINUED



Roderick V. Louis
Vancouver, BC, Canada

For those who do wish to keep driving their Toyotas, rumour has it that pending a call to take their car in for adjustment, simply print out an A4 sheet with the word 'BANZAI!!' in 36pt, and afix to windscreen!

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

"'Britain is one of world's most unfriendly countries towards children'?"

how come no ministers ever get asked the reasons for the UKs various EU 'exemptions'.

Such as the non-signing of the Child's Rights Charter.

or why alone of all other north European countries, our children have no legal right to express an opinion about their own schooling.


compared to Scandinavia, the UK quite literally brutalises vast numbers of its young, - and that's not even counting the effects of mass poverty.

mim, dearest NN poetress,


sex without consciousness is nothing,
sex without mind is sex without ego,
just being there, just loving, kissing,
sweating, giggling, tickling, ...hugging,
emotions intense, emotions relaxed,
to act react act until it is not certain the one the other,
the pleasure held, increased, waves, floating together,
floating together, floating together, floating together.

mind is not required, for consciousness is greater, nobler, more ecstatic.

gnu.

@9 Chaos Magick - the nappy situation is pretty terrible at landfill sights. They just get incinerated, huge amount of waste.

We switched to , purchased 10 - which initially cost us quite a lot (£250ish I think) but we've made that back easily now.

My partner was really enthusiastic to make the switch, I was initially a little reserved about it due to the thought of baby crap going around the washing machine, it really makes little difference though.