91Èȱ¬

As far as I am aware, Prime Ministers have being exempted from the same thorough ongoing secure checks and monitoring that have been considered necessary for some time for many other senior figures in public life,

but the question I would like to pose on this website is what would happen if say a politician was deliberately compromised while for example on an overseas trip, or perhaps one of our leaders was leading a 'double life' what would the security implications be of this?

Such actions could conceivably come from countries who in most other regards could be considered as 'friendly' but who might want some extra leverage in for example in trade negotiations, or even as an extreme example at the other extend of the spectrum secure the support of UK forces in a military operation?

Its just a thought, I would be interested in the views of other bloggers on this

GODFATHER PMs AND SUBSERVIENT MINIONS. (#1)

The Mafia-like heirachy of political 'courts' affords plenty of servile minions to do the dodgy stuff under some sort of diplomatic cover.
In recent years we have seen rendition flights and Dr Kelly's death, while details of what went on at our atom bomb tests, and Porton Down, serve to illustrate our elastic scruples as a purported, civilised, Christian democracy. Nevertheless, I suspect most PMs would avoid dangerous games that others could play for them.

To my mind - as posted - we need, rather, to be alert to other madness in PMs. We have had the obsessive, the delusional, the desperate wannabe and a mixture of these. With the voters mostly made up of a dim rump of the electorate, and the media 'playing games', our PMs get to the top unvetted. And just look at the things they then do at our expense!

The exception would be the psychopath PM for whom the thrill might be so seductive, they would personally pull some mad stunt. Maggie in her last days perhaps?

WHAT IS BRITAIN'S GIT?

I have often argued that a country should be judged by the contentment of its population. Government loves to trumpet our GDP, but as prison is one of tonight's subjects: how about assessment by 'GIT' - Gross Imprisonment Total? Am I right in thinking that Norway (for example) would rise from around 27th under GDP to near the top and the UK would sink, dramatically, to some ignominious depth?

I am not at all sure that graduate nurses make for greater caring; what might the same ethos do for 'wardering'? Are we getting our priorities right here, anyway?

Michael Crick is in Brussels...



And so is someone else we could mention...

Oh, how we laughed..

All I could think of while listening to Rupert Wingfield Hayes's report is the use Pushkin Square in Moscow had been put to by the paparatchik to stage demonstrations in support of the African American struggle for civil rights during the hot and heavy '60s. Not only because the media here in the US was inexplicably unaware of the great Russian poet's African ancestry but, more importantly, the way he deployed it as propaganda against the slave system and the racism of his own times, the subtlety of the put down the Soviets were directing at our government went completely over our heads. Interestingly enough, the descendants of Alexander Pushkin's youngest daughter are today an integral and invaluable part of your Royal Family, precisely because of what their African heritage can do to support the de-racialized ideals of a British Commonwealth. Cannot help wondering what a simple tactic like wearing T shirts, buttons, or arm bands printed with the celebrated national poet's name or image might do to help Africans living in Russia turn such a frightful and historically ironic situation on its head.

#3 Barrie

LIKE SOME MORE MILK WITH YOUR PORRIDGE?

Could it be that UK prison population is so high, simply because there are many people who like the lifestyle, and are suited for no other?

From the recidivism rate, and many 'insider' documentaries, it would appear that prisoners in UK are fed better than hospital patients (and don't get MRSA),seem able to continue snorting drugs, have their own macho language (a great favourite of TV dramas, which they can watch most of the day), get to meet others of their ilk, and don't have to worry about unemployment or signing on.

Doesn't need a degree course to 'understand' them. Penal reformers need to concentrate less on the reforming, which isn't getting results, and more on appropriate treatment for criminal activities. I was going to say punishment, but that wont do, now that we live in no-discrimination wonderland of equality.

ITS A FAIR COMMENT GUVNOR (#6)

And one I can't judge either way, directly. (I have not 'been to prison' - just visited an open one.)
But if we have created a culture in which a significant number of individuals prefer prison, may I just shift my ground a bit and make the same point? Perhaps GIT becomes PIT - Preferred Imprisonment Total? Still doesn't look too good does it! Further, as we excel in teenage pregnancy, drink problems (social and medical) and 3Rs failure, I have to own up to seeing the prison population as part of that spectrum. Then I look at Straw, Balls et al - and I lose all doubt (and the will to live).

PS I have water with my Crunchy Nut, does that disqualify me? (:o)

On the Hedge fund debate: Mr Chukka (missed the surname) is clearly not even remotely qualified to even touch on the hedge fund debate. It is such a shame that he was given any air time. On newsnight's part, it is shocking that you deem Stanley Fink's 50k donation to the Tories as even worthy of mention. Does anyone even realise how much he is worth? Disappointing handling of the debate in terms of the material Jeremy was given here... Jeremy did a good job balancing things here, but overall pretty poor coverage as nobody on Newsnight seems to be familiar enough with the hedge fund/alternative investment world to prepare a good discussion. Shame (Chukka, especially was terrible.. never allow him on the air again please!).

Michelle Dewbury may herself prove that you don't need a degree to be successful, but to suggest that you may as well not bother with one is absurd. To 'just read a book' if you want to learn something is simply not sufficient for any scientific subject, and is fairly pointless for the humanities & social sciences unless it is backed up with expert knowledge gleaned from academics.

In any case, it is less about the qualification gained at the end of a degree course, and more about the personal development of students in a university environment.

#67 from mimpromptu
gangofone
I take your point about Sylvio Berlusconi but to be honest I haven't had a chance to follow his politics closely so am not aware of his connections to far right political movements in Italy. One of my main concerns remains the truth about Katyn. As Mr Wajda's film has had such difficulties to make it on to the Italian screens, I was encouraged by the fact that Mr Berlusconi stood on the side of the truth regarding Katyn.
My family lost an amazing man there, a man who could have become one of the outstanding pioneers of research into cancer. He was also a very kind man who was ready day and night to go out there onto the streets of Warsaw and deal with emergencies affecting poor adults and kids, including Jewish ones. He did all that for nothing. A carriage was always waiting to pick him up in case of any emergency of this sort.
My Grandma was so affected by his brutal death that she gave up writing wonderful poetry for which she had a real nack.
So, any effort made on behalf of those Polish Officers who were brutally assassinated by Stalin gains my support and appreciation.

Brilliant interview with the Afghani UN Ambassador - particularly as Jeremy pointed out that the recent elections had over 2000 allegations of fraud and was close to point where the elections almost have no credibility at all. Is it any wonder that public support is shrinking for the war in Afghanistan? 300 troops killed this year - and for what? The government should bring back the troops now. Excellent report by Peter Marshall on Afghanistan too.

Excellent report by Michael C - interesting to see that a certain person pulled out of an interview with him on the train! Well, you never know, there may be a black Russian politician in the pipeline....great report by Rupert.

#6 - Indignantindegene - actually it's true - some people prefer to stay in prison as they see their friends, get whatever substance they want, don't pay rent and get all other mod cons. This costs £40,000 per prisoner per year.........

from mimpromptu
I was very pleased to see Jeremy much more relaxed tonight, long may it continue, and hope that my e-mail to Sir Michael Lyons has helped, though I feel further work needs to be done to get rid unwarranted outside, non-journalistic, interferences by the manipulators.

#13 continuation from mimpromptu
I would like to add that it is absolutely nobody's business whether I meet up with Jeremy and what we talk about, etc. I know how to respect another person's personal life and another person's family. This comment is obviously related to the unwarranted interferences I'm talking about in my e-mail to Sir Michael Lyons and at #13.

Sarah:

We have a film on the man known as Russia's Obama - a watermelon seller and former student from Guinea Bissau who is attempting to become the first black man ever to be elected to public office in Russia. Read more about that story here.

I am very glad, that you are doing this story about the Russian version of Obama...

=Dennis Junior=

from mimpromptu
Those who would like to do some research re: the reasons behind Hitler's and, in fact, Stalin's, invasion of Poland on 1 September 1939, may wish to read Viktor Suvorov's thoughts on the subject. There is quite a bit about it on the internet.
What's prompted me to make the above suggestion is an interview I've just read with Mr Suvorov on a Polish website wp.pl. In it he claims that because Russia is in such turmoil internally, with so much capital moving out of the country, etc, there is a need to find an external enemy in order to keep the Russian people distracted from their own problems. He also confirms that it is a well known fact that even eductated people frequently get up to such scandalous tricks for the sake of their own propaganda.
The title of the interview I would translate as: 'How Stalin duped Hitler'.

from mimpromptu again re: historical truths
I have also read another article re: the truth about the reasons for the aggression against Poland on 1 September 1939. In it, the author states that already 16 years ago Polish and Russian experts at the highest level were cooperating closely re: the subject and that Borys Jelcyn forwarded their report to the Polish authorities in 1993 which confirms the thesis presented by Mr Viktor Suvorov. A Polish historian, Mr Antoni Dudek, says that he is not surprised by the contents of the document and adds that privately Polish and Russian historians are in agreement about the truth regarding the pact between Hitler and Stalin and Katyn and adds that the problem is the fact that history is manipulated in Russia by politicians. Nevertheless, I think progress is being made towards the acceptance of truth and that Mr Putin has made first steps in this direction, however tentatively. Overall, in terms of his composure, etc, he acted with dignity and respect towards the Poles during his recent stay in Poland, at least in my view.

Well mim I took the time and trouble to look at your flickr site, I like the arty shots. I don't mean to be rude but you are much older than I thought, I imagined you about 20. Love this photo... [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator] but in case they mod it the picture of Jez and Micheal Howard sitting at the meal together.

mimpromptu (#14) "I would like to add that it is absolutely nobody's business whether I meet up with Jeremy and what we talk about, etc..."

It is if you post it on a 91Èȱ¬ public blog.

Please look at your behaviour more self-critically - in your own best interests. It seems to me that you sometimes become vaguely aware of the outcome of your behaviour and then find fault with others instead. It's a common human failing.

mimpromptu (#16) "He also confirms that it is a well known fact that even eductated people frequently get up to such scandalous tricks for the sake of their own propaganda."

Yes, governments throughout the world are prone to this. So are political groups in general. In fact, if you look through past posts you'll start to see that Public Relations and advertising companies do this all the time for a living. Even individuals. Those who tend to be least prone to such behaviour (because the scientific commnity punishes it) are scientists, but even .

C'est la vie? All's fair in love and war?

mimpromptu (#17) ..and adds that the problem is the fact that history is manipulated in Russia by politicians."

May I remind you of the '45 minute dossier', the search for WMDs, the 9/11 controversy? You might also look into what the Germans are recorded as having asserted the problem for Europe was (repated by Hitler in 1945 in his political testament, and what the demographics/statistics of NYC and elsewhere highlght in terms of a departure of observed figures from the mathematically expected. Are we not trained to demand explanations when we find such statistically signficiant relations?

Is it now 'discrimination' to do so? Is intelligent behaviour per se now discrimination, and to be frowned upon? What must the consequences of that be? Is this why so much of ? If one makes something which is working to one's group's advantage by giving it a very bad press, does one's group prosper? (cf. Madoff).

Is this venal or is this politics?

I've just read a column from today's Evening Standard



about the the live televised debate between Cameron/Brown/Clegg for the upcoming general elections......and Jeremy may well be the one hosting the debate! He did it fantastically for the London Mayoral elections and also for the Labour leadership one, and I have no doubt he would be outstanding here too.

#18 from mimpromptu
ecolizzy
Thank you.
Re: my age, well, I do sometimes write in a light-hearted way /though frequently dealing with very serious matters indeed/, if that's why you thought I was about 20. In fact, I'm 55, though a fit 55. Never had a problem about getting older though for a long time was bothered about having to waste too much time. This I have almost completed dealing with.
The photo of Jeremy & Michael Howard is one of my favourites of that evening. It reflects rather well the atmosphere at the table as I observed it from mine. There seemed to quite a bit of giggling going on over those glasses of wine.

OBLIQUE BUT PERTINENT? (#23)

"There seemed to quite a bit of giggling going on over those glasses of wine."

How much SUPPOSED rational thought and decision taking, in Britain, is actually enacted 'under the influence'?
The NN forum purports reasoned comment and exchange - but how many posts are alcohol (or other substance) modified?
Britain has an acceptance - even espousal - of the drinking of industrial solvent (ethanol) by its citizens. (Inhalation of other solvents is, oddly, illegal.) However, apart from improved confidence (bravado?) gained from an initial, small amount, all other accruals are negative, painful and costly.

Alcohol is characterised by disinhibition. The first drink makes the second more likely - then the third . . . Our culture permits giggling WHEN SOBER about what alcohol does to us when in its grip. This is the 'civilisation' we export through invasion, oppression and death.

Perhaps Paxman and Howard were discussing this very problem?

THEY WHO PAY THE PIPER..

Mistress76uk (#22) "..the the live televised debate between Cameron/Brown/Clegg"

Like the NN Political Panel, there is no substantive political differences between the three of them. They're all Liberal-Democrats aka deregulators ,aka free-marketeers (technically, Austrian/Chicago School anarchists - see Libertarians). They have had to be, as we've been 'indebted' to the USA for both our economy and thus our foreign policy, for decades. WWII cost us that.

If the peole of this (now Balkanized) country are happy about this that's fine by me, so long as they see this sham for what it is. We see it's a sham by the way that radically different (only like Old Labour if you look very closely enough) parties like the BNP are treated. All parties star having hissy-fits! This hostility to anything 'extreme' drives the 'three' main parties so close together that their differences are so minor that nobody looking at their policies critically will see any substantive differences worth voting for....Which appears to be the idea generally in the Liberal-Democracies? Centre-left and Centre-right is really nonsense talk and is all a sure fire route towards ever greater deregulation aks anarchism.

Liberal-democratic politics is nonsense, but it's clever nonsense.

CLEVER NONSENSE - THE 'NOUGHTIES' CAPTURED IN TWO WORDS (#25)

"Liberal-democratic politics is nonsense, but it's clever nonsense."

As I posted recently: I have been reading Tony's 'Rimini Address'. It was certainly nonsense, and struggled even to be clever. What does this say of the world-culture in which this bogus sage moves, and is so lauded? The noughties are characterised by the dominance of 'zeros' in every walk of life. Science has sold out to business, education has sold out to PC, media has sold out to 'edginess' and politics has sold out to money. (!)

Here in Britain, useful idiots have been breeding useful idiots for long enough to lose track of fundamental reasoning. I would expect unemployment+alcohol+multiculture to equate to carbon+sulphur+saltpetre - only needing a spark. But perhaps all spark has fled these islands in horror or shame, and all will be 'well'.

Disneystan?

given the fiction on western tv Afghanistan must be like a disneyland? We have been training afghans for over 7 years already and people are trying to say they need another 5 years given these are people who fire guns as soon as they can walk and are brought up in an expert military minded culture so how much 'training' do they really need? It's like saying spartans need extra 12 extra years of british training to fight? And who is defeating the British Army now? the Girl guides? or afghans?

Russian Cowards

Brave patriotic russian gangs of young men attack alone migrants in the street? Heroes they can be proud of?

Fiddling on the Roof

a look at the maths shows the city is a net drain on the uk who only make money on a privatise the profit and socialise the loss model of 'business' where too big to fail is the best way to secure your job. If the public did not prop up the financial system with a ruinous public debt the hedge funds would have no business to operate in. As long as the financial industry is liquidised through public debt all those participating in that market should have a 70% tax on profit till the public debts have been paid off and the public compensation for the lost years.

TV Careers rather than an education?

Competing for Tv games shows is the model for a career? Why not playing scratch cards?

Risk takers are not the same as the educated. Bill Gates dropped out of college. Its a different psychology.

JP snobbery rises again? what is the state of his lawn? Getting a good lawn is a real skill. Is it anymore of a bimbo course than media studies?

"Live televised debate between Cameron/Brown/Clegg"

Just 3 people discussing the same narrow extremist view.

#24 from mimpromptu
Mr Singleton
As far as I'm aware the contents of those wine glasses didn't provoke any outrageous behaviour either on the part of Jeremy or Michael Howard and when at the end of the evening I walked up to Jeremy to say a few words he didn't display any disinhibited behaviour. (^_^)

barrie (#26) I second that! ;-)

if you can endure a couple of hours of rolling 91Èȱ¬ NEWS without throwing something at the screen, watch some of the interviewees and reporters as they talk about quite serious matters whilst smiling, if not flirting, with the interviewer. It's quite bizarre. Instead of providing factual information (no doubt deemed too dull to be presented raw), the material is delivered with smiles, and the odd little laugh here and there. In fact, it isn't just odd, it's sinister.

Neuroscience 101 (with licence): The brain structures and chemical systems subserving e-motion are very old. They comprise what's known as the paleostriatum and paleocortex (old). They subserve quite crude, evolutionary old, ways to deal with the world. More evolved animals have new (neo) structures on top, quite literally. These are the neostriatum and neocortex. Those subserve more refined sensory discrimination (vision and hearing) and fine motor movement, instead of crude, emoting/wailing etc based on smell, taste etc e.g.. 'that smells fishy, or that's sweet' (and similar behaviours).

Will we see people gawping like fish in pursuit of egalitarianism soon? ;-)

'I often wonder what the vintner buys, one half as precious as the goods he sells’ Ancient Arab Wisdom

Come on Barrie, have one on me on my birthday! I’ll be at my club on Monday lunchtime if any other NN bloggers want to join me. (see previous posts)

I’m not an alcy, just love a pint of English Ale when a good excuse presents itself.
Even slippery Salmond had a smile on his face when announcing his new anti-drink measures for Scotland this morning: probably had a wee sip of their best export beforehand.

As an even older sage, I share your regrets at the degeneration of our society, and will soon emigrate to a less ‘developed’ society. One thing may persuade a return: if Scotland gains independence, then we can finally drop the anachronistic Great Britain or United Kingdom, and England might be reborn again? We could perhaps get a few more English Nation Party members elected to our English Parliament with similar agendas to the Doncaster mayor. This could be a better option than present parties.

Your shout!

YET MORE ON 'THE CREDIT ASSIGNMENT PROBLEM'

bookhimdano (#27) "Bill Gates dropped out of college."

He was at the right place, at the right time, when wasn't.

Good post at #27 though. A lot of sensible people will agree with you. Isn't it odd that this has absolutely no visible impact in our liberal, allegedly representative, democracy?

22. At 09:46am on 03 Sep 2009, Mistress76uk wrote:
and I have no doubt he would be outstanding here too.

Indeed. That said... all that's required for a glittering career would seem to be to ask the same question over and over again when it doesn't get answered, and give up after more evasions than the previous record.

Seems to add to the reputations of all, if not serving the cause of edification much. And with three such craven dissemblers given the opportunity to say less than they already do (which is 4/5's of b-all already) in the current seen2bduntrumpsdoing, offend-nobody boxtickocracy, I'd say it would run the test card for interest levels.

However, having a paid servant of the outfit dependent on the current government agreeing to our money being used to fund it might not be the most placatory move, balance-wise, IMHO.

There are many questions that may be posed (or not), and depending on which get asked in the first place, the clearing of a throat, and/or the cranking of a well-tended eyebrow to any answer can always steer even the most stenographically-neutral moderation.

The hunt for one of competence, but without rampant agenda, will be as interesting as the choice.

#2 barriesingleton

"In recent years we have seen rendition flights and Dr Kelly's death, while details of what went on at our atom bomb tests, and Porton Down, serve to illustrate our elastic scruples as a purported, civilised, Christian democracy."

But I thought you wanted an "end to party games" and an end to democracy.

People certainly don't want the tyranny of National Socialism and I seem to recall that Hitler's Holocaust was a state planned "solution" consistent with the twisted racial values that they held.

On the Russian Nazis.

Apparently in Russia they surprisingly have many neo-Nazis (as the Nazis killed thirty or so million Russians) so look out for anybody trying to spread that rubbish (National Socialism) over here.

For instance there are those who would say that I "paint Hitler as darkly as possible" are "anarchists and Trotskyites" and do so "for party political reasons" even on this page!

We have our problems on the streets too though nowhere near as bad as Russia.

Its like the Roma beaten in Belfast recently - a woman with a four day old child - beaten by teenagers induced by far right ideologues it is assumed.

Also more obviously the Luton situation.

Also the Muslim man kidnapped in London from his home and taken to Epping Forest at knife point.

In that area there had been BNP leaflets protesting against Mosques and suchlike.

But we are not anywhere nearly as bad as Russia at the moment and the worry is that they have had this problem for some time.

#32 jaded_jean

"Isn't it odd that this has absolutely no visible impact in our liberal, allegedly representative, democracy?"

But you are always saying that we should learn from the National Socialism of Hitler and he was a dictator. I can't recall exactly what he did with those that did not toe the line ..... wait ... they were shot and gassed weren't they?

Yes of course the Holocaust where Jews, who were seen as you say as an "internal political and economic threat", Roma and political dissidents killed many millions.

You are I know "agnostic" on the Holocaust.

Meanwhile there is no Nazi Party in Britain. Only the BNP who are a "modern and progressive party".

Haven't you encouraged Newsnight to give them greater coverage?

I CAN OUT-STUPID MANY, SOBER - WHY WOULD I DRINK? (#31)

Buy your own, IDG2 and I'll buy mine. For me to join you in the alcohol ritual, is to be party to negligence and incitement (thus, one with government). But a hearty 'Happy Birthday' nonetheless. (:o)

Q. How did you find out you are 'not an alcy', IDG2? As JJ might say: "What does your answer tell you?"

#19 Jaded_Jean

"Please look at your behaviour more self-critically - in your own best interests. It seems to me that you sometimes become vaguely aware of the outcome of your behaviour and then find fault with others instead."

This from the Holocaust "agnostic" and race "realist"!

#17 mimpromptu

"Nevertheless, I think progress is being made towards the acceptance of truth and that Mr Putin has made first steps in this direction, however tentatively. Overall, in terms of his composure, etc, he acted with dignity and respect towards the Poles during his recent stay in Poland, at least in my view."

I agree largely and think that while there is a lot that needs to be done Russia is heading in the right direction.

I am surprised that Putin who clearly did not like the Nazis is not doing more to reveal the truth about the Nazis to the neo-Nazis in Russia.

By the way I would be careful about saying too much about yourself on the blog as "they" are not benign.

Tried to say something similar yesterday but the moderators seem to be having a naive patch and will accept any complaint.

#23 mimpromptu

I forgot to add ecolizzy is a Jaded_Jean fan and stated recently that she did not like visiting London due to the racial mix ....

On Afghanistan/Pakistan I don't like aimless futile wars - or any war. But this isn't really like Vietnam where the US heaves a sigh and goes home and gets on with life.

If Afghanistan slides back to the Talibs and Pakistan then becomes a failed state or a Talib state then there are 60-100 nuclear weapons allegedly. The Talibs still have a functioning relationship with al Qaeda.

How will the Chinese or the Russians or India or the US feel about that?

Perhaps that is a question for Mark Urban - would Pakistan become quickly destabilised and the "loose nukes" international response?

If not then are we actually fighting to win or just fighting? McChrystal inspires confidence and has ideas.

Pakistan has the capacity to stand alone but perhaps not sufficient will to fight a messy civil war with no quick outcome. Then again if they have agreed to get some training from Sri Lanka (hopefully without human rights abuse excesses) that is their aim. A big country and difficult terrain.

So it seems to me that whilst Pakistan continues to confront the Talibs/al Qaeda with a view to total victory the war, and the sacrifices are worthwhile.

It would be unfortunate to walk away from a war and then realise why it should have been continued.

the Party line used to be...'Russia is playing for time, as the West won't help' as the news filtered through of the political pact between Russia and Germany. No one should cast aspersions on the Russian motive least of all plucky little Britain standing against the might of Germany. Germany would have sailed virtually unopposed into the vast tracks of Russia had they, the Russians not bought time so they could re-arm as they knew deep down it was only a matter of time that Germany would attack. One of the mysteries of the second world war is that even days before Operation Barbarossa Stalin believed that Germany would not attack, another mystery is why the Russian people held Stalin in such high regard when his military nouse was suspect. It was fear of a monster who had millions of his people shot and no doubt along with that figure were the cream of his intelligentia and officers. Russia paid a heavy price with a death toll of 27 million so for me, it was Russia wot won it not the Allies with their 980 thousand, still a terrible price but history never judges the vanquished only the victors....

AS OTHERS SEE US

barrie (#37) Oddly, (and just how odd it is can be appreciated if one gives just a few self-critical moments' thought to this) it comes as a major shock to many people when they are told that many people, when asked to give an account of themselves, provide an account of how they would like to be seen by others, rather than providing an accurate summary account of their past behaviour. Some will openly ask or assert, what's the right thing to say at interviews in order to get a job - partner etc etc !! Oddly, people seem to think they have absolute and accurate insight into their behaviour. They don't have such insight into anything else about themselves, so why this the case? It's the most complex of all..

Those who are most confident hat they know themselves are often the least accurate too! Yet they get the jobs. Is it any wonder we're in such a mess?

ODD THINKING: DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME..

thegangofone (#38) "..race "realist"

I'm also a dog breed realist and a bird species realist too. It's zoology.

The Government uses a 16+1 ethnicity classification system across departments. Broadly, there are Black Britons and Asian Britons and White Britons. Is this racist?

I think you should explain to us all why you keep posting assertions which read to me as similar to:

'x believss that orange are different from lemons.. so is an evil fruitist'

or

'y believes that rats are different from rabbits, so like x, is a mammalist and so probably supports the BNP and does things with sheep in fields... in the North'.

as prima facie your posts appear rather odd, to say the least.

OUTCOMES NOT INTENSIONS

leftieoddbodd (#42) "One of the mysteries of the second world war is that even days before Operation Barbarossa Stalin believed that Germany would not attack, another mystery is why the Russian people held Stalin in such high regard when his military nouse was suspect."

We never know what other people 'believe'. Beliefs are not observable (even by those who allegedly have them), they are just imputations. They are therefore best left out of accounts of historical events. Be wary of accounts which traffic in such idioms.

That two National Socialist (allies seemingly) went to war in June 1941 is indeed still an enigma. But look at where they fought (mainly the Pale of Settlement, and look at where Hitler didn't go when he could have..), and look at what Stalin was doing in the 1930s to the Old Bolsheviks including those in the Red Army. What was going in is Russia was similar to what was going on in Spain where two factions of 'communists' were at odds. Who won WWII, and with whose help? What was the outcome in terms of the expansion of National Socialism (Socialism in One Country/Stalinism)?

PROBABLY

mademoiselle_h (#45) One has to to look/listen carefully at the language used. Assertions are usually already expressed in the language of uncertainty (probability/statistics). It is not about being smart per se, it's a matter of behaving intelligently/carefully - here, verbally.

PS. typos don't count ;-)

BY THEIR TYPOS SHALL YE KNOW THEM (#47)

Oh nooooo JJ, you don't get away with that assertion! I have been reading ALL SORTS OF STUFF into your typos - snigger.

But you redeem yourself with post #44. HILARIOUS! Even funnier than Hilary himself!

I am a typo realist AND a typist - but a poor one.