91Èȱ¬

The cynicism of the Gaza war is encapsulated in the 'end-game'. The war was shaped by two timescales. The first was the Israeli elections due in a few weeks time. With the coalition partners fighting each other as much as with Likud, this was a game of chicken; with the difference that it was to be the Gazans whose 'life' was to be put on the line.

The most cynical aspect of the timing, however, was the US linkage. The war was timed to slot into the gap where Bush was so weakened, as the lame duck departee who could though still be counted as favourable to Israel, and the gap until Obama takes a more balanced approach.

I think the Israelis as always thought it was a shoe-in, guaranteed win, but Hamas wisely has played the long game.

Accordingly it has now become a gamble for Israel, already probably embarassing Obama (their upcoming paymaster), and offending world opinion, whilst not actually destroying Hamas.

So far its government has had the Israeli electorate (and the Jewish diaspora) behind it, but that is always the case; 'my country right or wrong'. But that will soon evaporate if the adventure proves to have been a losing strategy - even if only in terms of its own goal of an unachievable publicised target of no more Hamas rockets.

Triumphs in Diplomacy, Condie's last ride...

"The US and Israel have signed a deal to halt the smuggling of arms into Gaza, in what Israel's foreign minister said was an important step towards peace."

""We know that the Wehr Elbe, a German-owned cargo ship left the USA on 20 December 2008 with a large consignment – 989 containers - of high explosives and other munitions destined for Israel," said Malcolm Smart, Director of the Middle East and North Africa Programme.

"Hired and now legally controlled by the US Military Sealift Command, it was heading for the Israeli port of Ashdod and was due to transit via Greece, though its latest reported position indicates that the shipment's route may have changed."

Tenders for two other arms shipments totalling 325 containers of US munitions were approved by the Pentagon on 31 December, four days after the start of Israel's current attacks on targets in Gaza."

Sir Gerald Kaufman is a major spokesman for British Jews and a longstanding Member of Parliament.



May God Bless him

I agree, Ed.

Shalom

Sir Gerald Kaufman is a major spokesman for British Jews and a longstanding Member of Parliament.
In Parliament




ed

#3 Ed Iglehart

Sir Kaufman is honorable indeed, here is his speech in full:



Peace and Truth....

HYPOCRISY AND HEGEMONY

"The present Israeli government ruthlessly and cynically exploit the continuing guilt among Gentiles over the slaughter of Jews in the Holocaust as justification for their murder of Palestinians. The implication is that Jewish lives are precious, but the lives of Palestinians do not count....
//
"It's time for our government to make clear to the Israeli government that its conduct and policies are unacceptable and to impose a total arms ban on Israel. It is time for peace, but real peace, not the solution by conquest, which is the Israelis' real goal, but which is impossible for them to achieve. They're not simply war criminals; they're fools."



It's all been said before, will make little if any difference and he'll be subjected (at least publicly for show) to ad hominem abuse as a self-hating Jew. It's how this nasty game has always been played for advantage - induce guilt, take advantage of trust, benevolence and self-doubt.....treat all that as weakness, yet play the victimised.

The Mods (who are as Gods) seem not to like me providing an access by which members of the public can send messages of\encouragement (or disapproval) to a prominent member of Parliament, but I'm sure those moved to do so can find their way from

Second time lucky?
;-)
ed

I don't understand, given the terrible things that happened to them under the Nazis, indeed what's been happening to them since Paul put the hi-sign on them, why those Jews who live in the state of Israel are so determined to ape the actions of their erstwhile would-be exterminators.

What the world sees today is a million plus people herded into a small area- in some parts walled in - blockaded, deprived aid - because they are who they are.And when a small group of those people react to their treatment with violence, then the whole population is deemed guilty and attacked with ruthless, unforgiving and indiscriminate force of arms.

Despite assurances of help for the Jewish uprising, Soviet Russia let the Warsaw ghetto burn.

We can only hope the innocent people of Gaza are not similarly betrayed.

Someone asked on "Questiontime" last night why the world reacts with anger whenever Israel defends itself?

I think the global reaction is more one of deep, deep horror.

Watch this, another MAN of words. What a pity Newsnight will not show this to the British people IN FULL!

George Galloway MP.



Peace and Truth...

kashibeyaz (#9) "I don't understand, given the terrible things that happened to them"

What terrible things happened to them? It's 2009. No other group on the planet bangs on so much about how hard done to they have been whilst being the major economic and hegemonic beneficiary in the USA, USSR, Middle East...well everywhere actually.

Either you're being disingenuous, haven't been paying attention, or you're very naive.

This is ruse, it always has been.

A PARABLE

When British husbands, of military age, were called up in WWII, many did not return for several years. Meanwhile, their wives took on erstwhile 'male duties' and became used to free expression in the running of home and kids.
British husbands, amid the privations of war, kept alive a dream of home AS IT HAD BEEN when they left. They generally made no mental adjustment for the changes described above. On return, many could not accept the new world reality. Both husband and wives were caught out by each other's assumptions and a lot of grief ensued.

The Jews were desperately unlucky to have a myth of god-gifted land - theirs for eternity. The supposed gift has proved a curse. Add to that their other myth of 'chosen status' which (I presume) informed refusal to assimilate in countries and cultures of intervening residence, and you have a double curse. On returning to Palestine, the curse came with them, and the whole story reads like Greek Tragedy.

As I have said before, such an impasse cannot be resolved by immature individuals, no matter what high-flown organisations they install, and only maturity mediates against innate human nastiness. Maturity on planet Earth is declining. I have no quip to end this . . .

JadedJean

Reading this interview



with this sad fantasist, I noticed the similarities with many of your arguments. You may take that as a compliment - I don't mean it as one.

Using the word game when referring to Gaza is deeply offensive.

In Gaza, all government building have been systematically demolished. Other so-called 'targets' have been hospitals, UN schools, UNRWA depots, journalists' offices, police stations and medical clinics.
Aid ships trying to relieve the brutal siege have been rammed and threatened.

Vast swathes of Gaza have been demolished.
Children have been shot in the head by snipers.

The US/Israeli 'deal' is meaningless and completely unacceptable unless the borders are opened. A Greek cargo ship is bringing over 400 40 foot containers of munitions to Ashdod.

Israel has done itself an incalculable amount of damage from which she may not recover.

A programme free from Israeli talking points would be welcome. If it was really about rockets, then the summer cease fire was a model Israel refused to accept.

Fliegel (#13) If you look a little more closely at what I've posted, you'll see that I've raised a number of questions which need to be answered. Instead of doing that you resort to the ad hominem. Why is that? Is it because you have nothing valid to say in response? The Holocaust only really started to get mass public attention from the mid 60s onwards - around the time of the 6 day war. Why was that do you think? Why has anti-Nazi propaganda appeared in so much that has come out of Hollywood since?

After WWII many people were led (by the Psychological Warfare forces) to mistakenly believe that the (typhus) deaths at Belsen were a critical part of the Holocaust. This initially served the allied de-nazification programme quite well until they realised that they were being played by the USSR. Footage of Belsen/Western Camps was used at the IMT when the prosecution's case was flagging, but what did that have to do with the Germans, wasn't it down to successful allied bombing of supply lines?

You should start asking some serious questions just as Abbas did. Politics is a ruthless/dirty business (see the Soviets and Katyn) and the world is populated with people who behave far worse than you imagine David Irving does - see Gaza for starters, but that's the least of it.

Maybe I'm just a little more attuned to criminogenic/psychopathologic risk than some, but I suggest those who don't like what I've had to say here in recent times give it some serious thought for precisely that reason.

Whoever is hurting whom it's people hurting people. Race and religion are subsidiary to our common humanity. When we get Peace films instead of War films we might have woken up to our inability to comprehend anything outside our own skin. Hitler did what he did to Jews on the grounds that they were different and inferior as he tried to project. The Middle East activity suggests Hitler was, as we know,wickedly wrong on the evidence over the years that we're all the same. We have the same needs as each other. The majority of times we are shown loving families on film it's just before some disaster is coming to destroy it all. The vision's lacking.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

THE MCDONNELL MOMENT

For a moment we seemed to have a hero.
But listening to John McDonnell, since the incident with the mace, I sense that he lives within the Westminster lie, and fails to realise that uncomplaining presence in that corrupt institution, speaks of de facto acceptance. Mr McDonnel says he boiled over. It is apparent that he soon damped down the heat, and fell back to respectful subservience while, paradoxically, talking of representation. It seems that those of us outside the walls have no influence, and those inside, across parties, are inhibited from dissent by the malign magic of that place.

No hero - try Harry Potter.

got2write (#17) "Hitler did what he did to Jews on the grounds that they were different and inferior as he tried to project."

What do you beleive that? What Hitler (and Stalin in the USSR) was fighting was Jewish Bolshevism, i.e Trotskyism (which is close to anarchism, economic and social). This was a political fight, and in the 20s the (largely Jewish led) German communists and National Socialists (the latter were close to Stalinists if you look into it) were fighting in the streets of Germany as democracy and the economy was collapsing. The Tripartite Pact of the 1930s between Germany, Italy and Japan was against International Jewish Bolshevism, i.e the COMINTERN. As Jews were so actively involved in both communism and anarchistic (de-regulated) international finance, they were seen by the German National Socialist Workers Party as a major threat to the political stability of Germany. The German race laws were modelled on Jewish race laws, Jews regarded themselves as superior to gentiles (and in terms of hegemony, they were - it was just that Hitler saw this as destructive force - Stalin and his successors came to believe this too - see VENONA).

barrie (#19) "No hero - try Harry Potter."

Perhaps that's why parties (perhaps just one?) are necessary. As social, linguistic, animals, we find true independence frightening, if not impossible.

As I've said before, I suspect the PRC will ultimately lead the way, but maybe you're further down this route than many (or even you yourself) realise? Duty to others figures in the PRC constitution, it still figures in the Rusian one too. We have 'rights'. We're like adolescents.

I've just heard on Iranian TV that there are around 150 US Citizens currently in the Gaza strip.

Doesn't the United States have some sort of moral obligation to evacuate these people?

Just a thought...

A lot of protests, a few breaking diplomatic relations, and notable heat from Pakistan, but not a lot else from the . Still, if Israel unilaterally stops later today (Saturday) maybe Rice read Livni the riot act?

Re . #18 My comment Referred to Mods. It doesn't surprise me.

It was critical of another poster. I wonder how many other posters on this site agree with my criticism? (I wonder if others will see it to know?) At least a few (several perhaps) have criticised the same poster before. Possibly more wanted to but didn't bother.

If there is to be moderation it must be based on criteria "reasonable" people would consider "reasonable". That may seem rather fuzzy. Real life often does. There is a poster on this blog who is unreasonable. Harmless but irritating. Can you guess the one I'm thinking of? . A couple of weeks back someone suggested s/he (and perhaps others) deterred would be other posters. Mods. isn't it time you dealt with this obvious problem? YOU WORK FOR US. WE PAY YOUR WAGES.

Goodnight.

I am glad to see the Israelis using the tools we Americans gave them to defend themselves. I'm equally happy to see them standing up to Europe and the UN who don't give one whit about their survival or safety. I hope they stand up to Obama if he gets out of line. He'd better stick by what he said in Israel about how he'd stop rocket attacks on his daughters whatever it takes or his lies and hypocricy in what he said just to get elected will be his legacy. With rockets still being launched at Israel by the Arabs, now is no time for a unilateral cease fire. Would Hamas consider a unilateral cease fire if the situation were reversed? Not on your life. Time for Europeans to get over it and move on. With One one thousandth as many civilian deaths as in Darfur and having lasted about a thousandth as long, this story has gotten a thousand times more coverage by the European press. Time to send it to page 6 where it belongs now, it's old news.

OUT OUT DAMNED LDOs!

Now that worldwide pre-emptive defence (aka attack) collective punishment and state torture are all acceptable to the civilised, democracy-about-town, is it not time to add authorised genocide (perhaps group-identicide) to the correctional menu?

Let's have the UN decide on who, out of Israel and 'Palestine', is in the wrong, and then pronounce the death penalty.
A 'coalition of the complicit' could circle the legally designated offenders (LDOs) and simply exterminate them. (Not unlike the Crusades?)

An attractive spin-off would be that the next time some oil-less tyrant wants to annihilate a million or two 'others', we can relax - its 'acceptable'.

13thMan (#26) 'Play the ball, not the man' is the way that one is popularly encouraged to avoid the ad hominem (in all its guises). Criticising the logic of a post is legitimate because it's rational and constructive, challenging the content is fine as that's empirical, but personally abusing a poster for correcting one's posts isn't as it doesn't inform or correct. There is a fine line, and wierd though it may seem, intension is at the heart of this as is the science and technology of behaviour as a corrective.

What about an Israeli and Palestinian version of Wife Swap, the hit TV documentary series about family feuding.

Namaste Barrie,




ed

PARABLES AT TEN PARSECS

Two parables don't make a Swallow Ed.

Ed Igelhart (#29) They'll keep doing it, both here and there, as it's a risk already factored into a ruthless,(perhaps unwitting, as most group competitive strategies are in evolution) battle for hegemony. One has to look at two measures - population base-rates vs. representation in positions of influence/power i.e competition for resources. Where one funds discrepancies from what's expcted by chance, and where those discrepancies are not explicable in terms of IQ advantage etc (as they are not, given the same base-rate (0.5%) and attainment level for British Chinese in the UK), there is something to be rationally explained, which as yet, hasn't been.

Rational refutations, challenges welcome.

ROGER THAT 13thMAN (#24)

Are you SURE you want to emasculate this blog? Have you seen some of the others??
When PM instigated the 'Furrowed Brow' (is it still going?) I assumed it would be a place for gravitas - I was even prepared to drop flippancy - believe that if you can! Then I took a look at the level of discourse and RAN.

Eric Berne was mining gold when he divided our behaviour into Parent Adult and Child. (Sorry JJ - I know the resonance - or worse - with Super Ego, Ego and Id.) If the PAC approach has passed you by 13th, I can recommend it as a way to approach most blogs, forums etc on the internet. Even one so evolved as I (:o) can fall into the traps of 'being right' 'self indulgent tripe' 'dogma' 'prejudice' and 'just being a prat'. Indeed, life is pretty dull without! Berne called P A and C 'ego states'. You can spot them a mile off; don't get the red mist -feel superior. Do a bit of subversive bating - very cathartic. A link if interested.

[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

"WHEN THE killing and destruction in Gaza were at their height, something happened in faraway America that was not connected with the war, but was very much connected with it. The Israeli film ?Waltz with Bashir? was awarded a prestigious prize. The media reported it with much joy and pride, but somehow carefully managed not to mention the subject of the film. That by itself was an interesting phenomenon: saluting the success of a film while ignoring its contents.

The subject of this outstanding film is one of the darkest chapters in our history: the Sabra and Shatila massacre. In the course of Lebanon War I, a Christian Lebanese militia carried out, under the auspices of the Israeli army, a heinous massacre of hundreds of helpless Palestinian refugees who were trapped in their camp, men, women, children and old people. The film describes this atrocity with meticulous accuracy, including our part in it.

All this was not even mentioned in the news about the award..... "

"
The Gaza Bombshell
After failing to anticipate Hamas’s victory over Fatah in the 2006 Palestinian election, the White House cooked up yet another scandalously covert and self-defeating Middle East debacle: part Iran-contra, part Bay of Pigs. With confidential documents, corroborated by outraged former and current U.S. officials, the author reveals how President Bush, Condoleezza Rice, and Deputy National-Security Adviser Elliott Abrams backed an armed force under Fatah strongman Muhammad Dahlan, touching off a bloody civil war in Gaza and leaving Hamas stronger than ever.
by David Rose April 2008"

ROGER THAT 13thMAN (#24)

Are you SURE you want to emasculate this blog? Have you seen some of the others??
When PM instigated the 'Furrowed Brow' (is it still going?) I assumed it would be a place for gravitas - I was even prepared to drop flippancy - believe that if you can! Then I took a look at the level of discourse and RAN.

Eric Berne was mining gold when he divided our behaviour into Parent Adult and Child. (Sorry JJ - I know the resonance - or worse - with Super Ego, Ego and Id.) If the PAC approach has passed you by 13th, I can recommend it as a way to approach most blogs, forums etc on the internet. Even one so evolved as I (:o) can fall into the traps of 'being right' 'self indulgent tripe' 'dogma' 'prejudice' and 'just being a wally'. Indeed, life is pretty dull without! Berne called P A and C 'ego states'. You can spot them a mile off; don't get the red mist -feel superior. Do a bit of subversive bating - very cathartic. A link if interested.

[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

JadedJean

Yes, you've raised a number of questions, and you've answered them for yourself too. There is no view contrary to your own that you give any credence; you regularly insult posters who dare to doubt your own 'evidence based' views. You're no stranger to ad hominem attacks yourself.

You say: After WWII many people were led (by the Psychological Warfare forces) to mistakenly believe that the (typhus) deaths at Belsen were a critical part of the Holocaust.

Someone who died in a concentration camp of whatever cause was just as dead. Their death was caused by their being imprisoned there. For being a Jew, or 'undesirable' in some other way. Such sophistry reflects poorly on the humanity of anyone who would make such an argument.

Of the almost 7 billion people on the planet, if you could remove the 13.3 million Jews I dare say you wouldn't be happy. Doubtless the legacy of our existence would still be a problem.

The horrible irony is that the appalling suffering in Gaza is perhaps less felt by those who discriminate against Jews than by Jews who protest against it. While it fuels your prejudice you can't truly regret it.

I'm weary with this. Comment until eternity; you won't change anything.

ROGER THAT 13thMAN (#24)

Are you SURE you want to emasculate this blog? Have you seen some of the others??
When PM instigated the 'Furrowed Brow' (is it still going?) I assumed it would be a place for gravitas - I was even prepared to drop flippancy - believe that if you can! Then I took a look at the level of discourse and RAN.

Eric Berne was mining gold when he divided our behaviour into Parent Adult and Child. (Sorry JJ - I know the resonance - or worse - with Super Ego, Ego and Id.) If the PAC approach has passed you by 13th, I can recommend it as a way to approach most blogs, forums etc on the internet. Even one so evolved as I (:o) can fall into the traps of 'being right' 'self indulgent tripe' 'dogma' 'prejudice' and 'just being a wally'. Indeed, life is pretty dull without! Berne called P A and C 'ego states'. You can spot them a mile off; don't get the red mist -feel superior. Do a bit of subversive bating - very cathartic. A link if interested.

Blogdog seems not to like the link – so: no link

LIFE IS NOT LIKE IN THE MOVIES

Fliegel (#36) "I'm weary with this. Comment until eternity; you won't change anything."

Despite my advice not to impute, i.e. speculate on other people's frames of 'mind', but to stick to empirical facts as these are best known, you persist. The fact is that none of your personal assertions can be substantiated by reference to physical evidence, and that's why I advised you not to make such assertions. This is at root a rather profound logic of language point, and it's one which I have made to others (e.g. 13thMan). I suggest you look into this in your own best interests. There is, you might like to take on board, a group difference in the frequency with which one encounters resistence to this correction.

One further point:- people did not die just because they were put in concentration camps. The Americans interned Japanese-US citizens but those did not die, at least not at any rate higher than people usually die. Perhaps you didn't understand the point I made about Belsen. These deaths occured at the end of WWII and continued after the British took over for several months. Thousands died after the liberation. The allies were heavily bombing Germany from the West, is it any surprise that epidemics broke out? Zyklon B was used as fumigating agent, specifically to kill the vectors of diseases like typhus.

I take it that you understand that the camps were internees were alleged to have been homicidally gassed was in the Eastern territories, that these were liberated by the Soviets and that these areas became part of the USSR, i.e off-limits to the Western allies? The Soviets provided the evidence for German atrocities at the IMT, some of which was known at the time to have been fabricated, as was the Katyn evidence. One also has to recall that many of the internees were communists, some were just criminals, all of whom would have hated the Germans (as I suspect many disposessed Jews did - under such circumstances, people do not tend to tell the truth, they want revenge). It is also worth bearing in mind that in the Moscow Trails of the 1930s when the original (largely Jewish) Bolsheviks were purged and allegedly executed, they 'confessed' too. It's worth looking into those confessions, and those at the IMT. Normal rules of evidence did not apply at the IMT. Even these days the Americans get up to some quite odd things with extraordinary rendition, water-boarding etc.

I have no particular vested interest in believing or not believing the extent of the alleged Holocaust, I'm just not happy at all about much of the evidence which has been presented, and I don't think anyone else whould be either. I fear events and lack of evidence has been used for egregious political purposes in order to promote free-market, i.e anarchic, Liberal-Democracy, which in terms of the consequence to TFRs and crime I fear may not be in everyone's best interests.

You will find that my concerns are evidence based/driven if you look carefully into what I say. If you refuse to do that, and persist in resorting to personal abuse instead, I think you should consider whether you are behaving rationally.

Look up negative-reinforcement (it's not obvious what this is and how it works), and ALSO, take on board that many people will not readily affirm propositions if doing so makes them feel uncomfortable. Why do so many Jewish people seem to want there to have been a Holocaust and refuse to consider other rational explanations for loss of relatives at the end of WWII?

A father's grief

Re: End-game in Gaza

It’s impossible to have the end to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict without justice.
Diplomacy has to be backed by credible International Law.
The UN has to have a reliable mechanism for brining to account the leaders of those countries who perpetrated aggression or war-crimes.
In the case of Israel, if there is evidence of Crimes against Humanity, the Israeli leaders have to be brought to trial in The Hague. It will set a good example for the next Israeli Government.
If they know that they can be prosecuted then they may think twice before starting another war.

WHAT DRIVES DESPAIR

visualLiliana "In the case of Israel, if there is evidence of Crimes against Humanity, the Israeli leaders have to be brought to trial in The Hague"

How do you suggest that's legally pursued?
Israel (like the USA ironically) appears to have carefully avoided most of the pre-requisites for any prosecution to be brought.

In the meantime, in response to UNWRA's assertions of 'war crimes' Israel simply asserts that there is no evidence....

This is what one is up against. if they're not doing that they're playing tu quoque.

There's no reasoning with people who behave this way, and that, sadly, usually leads to violence - cf. Hamas.

PLEASE CAN I COME AND LIVE IN YOUR HEAD?

Oh visualLiliana, do you still enjoy a concept of Justice? You are blessed. For me, justice was 'the first casualty of coming down from the trees'. Since then, the human mind has devised religions, schooling, politics, diplomacy, money, torture, 'law' and a host of other delights to the baser side of our nature. (I forgot tourism.)

The world is a kindergarten out of control.
The cunning, the bullies, the thieving and the predatory are having a ball. I doubt the Israeli government will come to 'know' anything they don't already know now. Any more than Tony Blair will be asked pointed questions about war, money and 'beliefs'.

Once upon a time there was a hotel in a big city that got bombed by some people who didn't like the people in the hotel. About 90 people got killed, some were people the bombers didn't like, some were people they did like, but that didn't matter so much to the bombers.

Sixty years after the hotel was bombed and the people were killed, the bombers and some of their children and friends had a big party where the hotel had been, to celebrate that it had been bombed and that people had been killed; they put up a sign to tell people what they'd done.

And nobody did a thing because the bombers had BIG pals; maybe not for long, though.

JadedJean Memsahib/Sahib,

"Zyklon B was used as a fumigating agent, specifically to kill the vectors of diseases like typhus."

Evidence, please? And have some Largactil while you're at it.

kashibeyaz (#43) Sure:

and . Try Googling 'typhus Zyklon B' yourself and see what you come up with.

Incidentally, Largacyl isn't used all that much anymore, Haloperidol and other anti-psychotics are somewhat better.

That you think that people who tell you things that you don't now, believe or like should take old anti-psychotics is a little worrying don't you think? Are you a fan a censorship in general? A lot of Jewish people appear to be.

JadedJean Memsahib/Sahib, you get your information from newspapers,please?

Baba use Largactil all time with Anusol for treat his haemorrhoids - very small now.So I think maybe you need tip too, but maybe is not help you want.

Let's see if we can have some dialogue on who will make the first move to talks; US or Iran.

My bet is on Iran, for no other reason than I think it so.

See, I'm learning.

I wonder about Ms Jean or is it Monsieur Jean? Has she been placed here as an Agent Provocateur by Newsnight to stir the blog! ; )


Hhhhmm looks as though I could be right. : )

C'est la vie

"My bet is on Iran, for no other reason than I think it so."

REPREHENSIBLE WONDERING (#47)

Careful Lizzie. I don't think wondering is a permitted function - might even be 'intenSional' for all I know (just about everything I do seems to be). You pop off now and do some PROPER STUDYING of peer reviewed literature. Anyway, you surely don't think Newsnight's bunch of narcissists could be as on-the-ball as Jaded Jean do you. I doubt JJ is an agent but, as for the provocateur factor, I think it 'goes with the territory! (;o)

While everyone is watching the Israeli's and the Palestinians meanwhile back on the home front.



Just in case the link wont work its all about Ed Milliband suggesting that there is a " broad consensus " in the country for nationalizing the Banks. Likewise stronger regulation on the City.

LIMITED ED (ELVIS) MILIBAND (#50)

Can one say 'Elvis' as a nickname? I just followed the link and I'll swear I saw Elvis in the photo.

Reading that Limited Ed was adviser to Gordon (Goferbroke) Brown in matters monetary, I begin to understand how the UK got into such a mess. As for Peter (Matelot) Mandelson, I see he is still exceedingly relaxed about excellent folk being paid for excellent work. Hurrah!

ecolizzy (#47) That came perilously close to an ad hominem ;-)

kashibeyaz (#45) I get information from all sorts of places, you should try it. You might try some of the references at the end of the first link.

As to whether you're learning, time will tell ;-

With Ed's communist parental history perhaps some right wing commentators will attempt to portray that Labour gave the stock market parasites enough rope to hang themselves in order to have the excuse to nationalize the banks.

Barrie

you may need your eyes testing

#52 JJ

I guess at least some people agree with me.

( I reckon quite a lot..but I don't have evidence. The real world is such a b. of a place, what with people having to deal with reality and stuff. Be so nice if we could live in a land of pseudo-science and psycho-babble where reality was never problem. I find red wine helps.)

I am reminded of the story of little Charlie. He joined the boy scouts. One day while on parade, as he marched along with his friends, who were marching Left, Right, Left, Right, Charlie marched along... Right, Left, Right, Left...

His proud mother, watching on, cried with joy "Look at my little Charlie; he's the only one in step!"

I never knew her name. Perhaps it was Jean, mother of a Charlie.

THE CHUTZPAH AWARD OF THE YEAR GOES TO:

"We feel the pain of every Palestinian child and family member who fell victim to the cruel reality created by Hamas".

Jadedjean

I've worked it out.

"You are Lobby Ludd and I claim my £5.00"

#55 Well said, it was sickening to watch.

13thMan (#54) Still smarting instead of learning? Truth doesn't lie in folk psychological consensus, it's just a refuge for the incorrigible.

"#55 Well said, it was sickening to watch."

13thMan (#54) "Be so nice if we could live in a land of pseudo-science and psycho-babble where reality was never problem. I find red wine helps."

I'm sure it does, is that why more and more people appear to live in a land of pseudo-science and psycho-babble these days? I thought it might be dysgenesis. That's been a theme of mine for some time. It's also why I suggested that you abandoned the intensional and looked into the link on Behaviour Analysis instead, but I'm not sure my advice is helping.

I'm sickened

PROPAGANDA, CENSURE AND/OR OPPORTUNISM

Since providing the second link in #44, the vendor appears to have made most of the article subscription only. So here it is from the author's own site. [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

For modern spin, see Olmert/Regev.

can you ask Regev why his hasbara fellowship band of state trained agents are targeting uk news boards with misinformation?

is that something a 'friend and ally' would do?

#59 JadedJean

You may find people don't take your advice because somebody who thinks "Hitler did good and bad things" (very specific) and that people portray Hitler in the darkest light possible is a pariah. Thats before they take into account your views on the Holocaust and race and IQ.

But thanks for making me smile! You really believe that you are influencing people?

I think all you are doing is waking people up to the fact that that the Baby P batterer, the paedophile would be nail bomber, the Lowestoft SS manual bomber only represent one face of the evil you represent. Personally I would follow Germany and Austria and would lock up Holocaust deniers.

You know didly squat about genetics, behavioural analysis, history and any other intellectual discipline. You are without credibility.

But carry on with your "resistance is futile" logic and you could try "you are all inferior pig-dogs!" who will all be shot when the revolution presumably comes.

Or increase your medication.

THE INCORRIGIBILITY OF NARCISSISM

thegangofone (#63) "You know didly squat about genetics, behavioural analysis, history and any other intellectual discipline."

That sounds like fighting talk. OK, let's see you provide some evidence from the fields of behavioural genetics and Behaviour Analysis (to start with) which shows what you assert to be true. That seems like a fair challenge does it not? Otherwise, I think maybe an apology is in order if only to show that you have learned something positive from the exercise.

It is clear to me that you (and one or two others posting here) are not familiar with this research. That your prejudices have been challenged does not entitle you to abuse those who inform you of your errors.

I think a great diservice has been done to education and our culture in general over recent decades by encouraging people to anarchically argue when they don't even know what logical argument comprises, and when they don't have sound empirical evidence to base their arguments upon.

ed

ed

One for the Memsahib/Sahib; "It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the ones most responsive to change."

"Ticking away, the moments that make up the dull day, fritter and waste the hours in an offhand way."

Not for me no more; enough with the poisonous claptrap and the pseudo-wisdom; I'm off to Istanbul for some FUN!

Iyi akshamlar!

FIGHT/FLIGHT EXTREMISM AND OTHER ATYPICAL BEHAVIOURS?

Have a look at the DISCUSSION section of , and bear in mind a) 1/3 Ashkenazim are heterozygous for NCAH (an autosomal recessive 'disorder'/polymorphism) of 21-OHD synthesis) and 1/27 are homozygous (see New for this) b) the stereotype made famous by Woody Allen c) the centrality of psychiatry in this group d) the notorious stress responses.

Might this go at leat some way towards explaining others having to 'walk on eggshells', and the disproportionate stress (fight/flight) responses which we have observed recently? I obviously suspect a convergence of evidence suggests it might do.

I have remarked before on empirical reports of subtle (overcompensatory?) atypical shifts on sex-steroids in this condition and how this MAY bias cognitive function in brain-gender tilt (where males are usually higher spatial than female, and vice versa for females). Other atypical gender behaviours might also be more prevalent in this group as a consequence. This is the most common autosomal recessive disorder in mankind generally, it is just more common in the Ashkenazim (see other phenotypic consequences). The genes are in the region of the Major Histocompatibility Complex on chromosome 6 (C6p21).

#68

You may be right. Most people would not know. Some time ago I commented on the 91Èȱ¬'s failure to communicate. You (rather stupidly) suggested people should use google (or wiki, I forget).

My suggestion that you go for a walk was so you might meet people. Meeting people might help you learn the importance of communication. If you present even simple ideas in such esoteric language as at #68, most people will, at best, ignore you. Many will treat you as a fool. Even if you are technically correct, the latter will be right.

Your posting shows why I asked were you autistic; you seem to lack any understanding of people (as whole people, even if not at the molecular level) and you are obsessive about trying to impress with your "cleverness" (but not wisdom).

In asking "am I smarting?" you display childishness.

As politely as possible I suggest you stop posting on this board. So far as I can tell you are widely regarded as an irritant. I think your abuse of freedom to post (that is not too strong) deters others. If that is what turns you, on I feel sorry for you. But not so sympathetic I wish to tolerate you.

kashibeyaz (#68) "enough with the poisonous claptrap and the pseudo-wisdom; I'm off to Istanbul for some FUN!"

Thanks for letting us all know.

I'm disappointed to learn that you value fun above reason nonetheless.

IGNORANCE

13thMan "My suggestion that you go for a walk was so you might meet people. Meeting people might help you learn the importance of communication. If you present even simple ideas in such esoteric language as at #68, most people will, at best, ignore you."

Just more (arrogant) PRESUMPTIONS/assumptions and imputations. Can you see why I have said that?

*Some* people may not be competent to read scientific papers, but that does not make the langtuage of science 'esoteric', it just shows us that *you* are not a scientist or are not able to understand the paper. You appear to assume that nobody else is, and that THAT others are like you. Which group are you tacitly identifying with?

There will indeed be others who behave like you, but I suggest you should not take much comfort in that, even if the number of people who *can* work at something by themselves in order to understand it are a relatively small group in the population - populations are Gaussian distributions.

Is your behaviour (initially expecting 91Èȱ¬ Newsnight to explain terms which you do not understand rather than look them up using Google) somewhat egocentric/narcissistic?

It's a rather sad sign of our dumbed down times if those who behave intelligently (in a flagship News discussion forum serving a 91Èȱ¬-2 programme) are abused as a minority by a member of an alleged majority which is prone to ignorantly descibe what they don't understand as 'esoteric', 'wierd' etc.

Get my drift?

PAEAN TO PAIN

As I posted recently, this blog gives two bites at the cherry. Firstly: it is a wonderful display of the workings of very disparate minds, comprising a sub set of humanity who (a) think (b) are prepared to risk exposing their thinking (c) have a distinctive 'angle'. Secondly: the content of those minds ranges widely from (allegedly) deep prejudice to deep scholarship; with a wide range of content in between and some diverting mixtures.

I am opposed to the idea that anyone should be judged 'beyond the pale'. Let the Blogdog have the occasional bone (it would be another fascinating study if we could see what is chewed off - and know why) but let's not pre-judge.

Without going into detail: Some of the major tenets of cosmology are now under serious threat of being found WRONG after long years of CONFIRMING OBSERVATION/CALCULATION/EXPERIMENTATION. Some gods of science are wobbling on their pedestals. It does not pay to sign up too fast to anything. Even science 'lives within the lie' to a substantial degree.

I think Montaigne said we should be our own philosopher, while Buddha said to seek your own truths, and Lau Tsu asserted that to be SURE is a sure sign of being wrong. Oh - and Douglas Adams said: "keep banging the rocks together guys" (or was that George Bush?)

Hope to see you ALL Monday.

barrie (#72) The only thing I have to say about all that is that there are always those who say that the core constructs are under threat, but the way that the sciences work on a daily basis is that whilst each published paper tends to only offer very tiny contributions to that areas web of what's known, the core constructs tend to be those which are used daily to push the web out to unchartered territory, and those core constructs are so reliable that they are almost treated as analytic truths. In biology these will be basic concepts like that of the cell, that the nucleus contains DNA, that DNA codes for proteins etc. It's cumulative, and most important of all, it's pragmatic, where the question that's always asked is whether something new actually improves upon what we did before, and that improvement usually has to be a quantiable improvement in 'prediction' (i.e management/control of variables).

Sadly, these days, real researchers and the general public rarely communicate, for reasons which I've tried to explicate in the past. Any researchers reading this will know what I'm talking about. I think a great diservice has been made to both the public and science by trying to popularise science.

I don't think it can be (at all easily) done, as research hurts - bigtime.

ARE THINGS GETTING BETTER?

yet not long ago the 91Èȱ¬ Affairs Select Committee was reporting on the disproportionate rate of offending behaviour amongst what ostensibly should be the most integrated elements of the non-white British community, the British Black-Caribbeans. Meanwhile, whilst the USA is getting very excited about the inauguration of Obama, he's making it clear that there are major problems to deal with.

The bottom-line is that there is no rational basis to either what Trevor Phillips says, or the euphoria in the USA - as romantic egalitarian (essentially Trotskyite communist) policies and sentiments drive these populations in the same direction as the Third World countries from which many of the immigrants groups once fled for a better life, is it not inevitable that the havens to which they fled are becoming more like the places they fled from as their numbers grow and the others shrink?

Who would engineer such a thing? Who'd celbrate it in the face of all the evidence? The promises fly in the face of all that we know - so why do so many people promise impossible dreams? ....... Hollywood.

#73 JadedJean

As has been identified to you in the past mainstream science rejects you utterly. But as you have said in the past "they are all Jews".

"real researchers and the general public rarely communicate".

That is the usual sleight of hand for racist neo-Nazi "scientists" don't have a leg to stand on.

As for the Barrie Singleton analysis of #72
"Montaigne said we should be our own philosopher".

So thats a bit different to Hitler killing millions of people who varied from his required norm racially or intellectually?

If somebody makes a pretty (and vacuous) argument and they advocate mass murder what the hell?

"Some of the major tenets of cosmology are now under serious threat of being found WRONG after long years of CONFIRMING OBSERVATION/CALCULATION/EXPERIMENTATION"

Thats called the scientific process by the way.

You apparently read books now you just have to understand them.

Barrie (72),

"I think Montaigne said we should be our own philosopher, while Buddha said to seek your own truths, and Lau Tsu asserted that to be SURE is a sure sign of being wrong. Oh - and Douglas Adams said: "keep banging the rocks together guys" (or was that George Bush?)"

"Who so Hath his minde on taking,
hath it no more on what he hath taken.
MONTAIGNE, III. Vl"

I don't know why the link to the article in #61 was removed. of the article has featured in controversies with Dershowitz and others who have been interviewed on Newsnight, and there *has* been a lot of propaganda 'sloshing about' in recent weeks has there not? No doubt interested readers will be able to look up the full article for themselves.

Newsnight does the Ed Miliband comments on the need for regulation square up to the Brownian "global problem" analysis? A recovering housing market?

Denial?

13th Man, Fliegel, Go1.

Coming fresh to this thread this morning and being able to read it all as a contiguous exchange it is startling that each of you, in your responses to JJ, exhibit exactly the behaviour you are denying!

Go1 particularly, "You know didly squat about genetics, behavioural analysis, history and any other intellectual discipline. You are without credibility.".

Go1, I read the above quote with nothing short of astonishment at your arrogance. Do you actually know who JJ is? Do you know JJ's qualifications for saying such things? For you to make such unfounded statements is irrational. Notice that JJ generally goes to some lengths so any critic may easily verify (and learn from) what is being said.

For someone who claims two masters degrees (science subjects) your language is a little less than scientific - "didly squat". It appears to me that you are the one without credibility.

ARE YOU SERIOUS, MR PRESIDENT?
When the president speaks about environment, and cutting pollution, is he really serious?
We will find out soon if he is not. If we hear the news that Mrs is expecting, then NO WAY! With 2 kids, it's not time to copy the Camelot era. As role models, they need to be responsible and not bring into the world more reasons to increase pollution.
We are still waiting to hear someone who can associate failure to cut emission with the baby production machine. Those extra kids will need to be driven here and there, to have an extra room requiring heat and machines electricity, and when teens, naturally a car........... and we can go on and on with the consequences of only one more kid coming up for the next 20 years, and beyond that, they will start reproducing a few too.
NOW, DOES THAT MAKE SENSE OR NOT?
I will certainly listen for the double standard that will be brought up by one more Obama family member, while WE will be asked to cut on our usage. RIGHT?
I rest my case, appropriately speaking, to a couple of lawyers.