91Èȱ¬

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I agree with Ken Thomson and add that youth rugby should be a summer activity to get away from those frozen, wet, windy and dark nights.

John, I think that your comments about Alain Rolland are wrong and ill advised given the ban handed out today and the statements from the IRB on the subject.

I can recall that in 2010 when Phil Godman made contact with Lee Byrne those Welsh fans were baying for his head on a plate, and they got it in the form of a yellow card. If that incident warranted a yellow card, what makes anybody think that the Sam Warburton tackle did not warrant a red card?

Just because other referees did not apply the law and the zero tollerance directive correctly does not mean that all referees must act with similar negligence. Two wrongs do not make a right.

Not sure there’s a hardness issue, but the thing that stands out for from the NZ performance was the explosiveness and foot work of all NZ players and the lines they hit. Kevin Mealamu was fantastic today as has Jerome Kaino for the whole world cup for footwork. When it comes to McCaw and Read they just know how to pick a line to attack to get into the space between defenders at speed which is probably the same as our guys. For evidence just watch the gym video on the all black website, the ladder work and standing jumping is outstanding.

On the high ball catching there is also a video from last year’s tri nations with the all black backs practicing this specific skill. They had purpose built pads for the chasers to protect themselves when putting pressure on the catchers who have to reclaim the ball jumping into the air above the chaser. Great stuff and really inventive. Is the SRU attached to a sports science department of a university to isolated these skills and develop techniques and equipment that will improve the skill development?
For me we need to put far more time into coaching players how to attach space in a defensive line either by last minute footwork of picking the correct line into space based on gap size and direction of defender momentum. Show a typical club rugby player a rucking pad and they will t bone it at will. I blame rucking pads for a lot of poor technique going into contact and then presenting the ball.

With the red card the IRB rules are clear and must be supported, red card all the way. The anger comes from the fact the Sam Wharburton comes across as a great player, great captain and all round good guy. He is class and will hopefully captain the lions in 2013.

A directive was issued to all Unions and Match Officials in 2009 emphasizing the IRB’s zero-tolerance stance towards dangerous tackles and reiterating the following instructions for referees:

- The player is lifted and then forced or ‘speared’ into the ground (red card offence)

- The lifted player is dropped to the ground from a height with no regard to the player’s safety (red card offence)

- For all other types of dangerous lifting tackles a yellow card or penalty may be considered sufficient


Moving forward I would like to see clubs across the board invest heavily in U18 teams at clubs to rival private schools. The U18 calendar should have a league integrated with district setup, international development, 7s and cup comp. We need to get our best coaches operating at this level because it is a real opportunity to improve players for the rest of their playing careers. How many clubs have their best coaches coaching week in week out at U18 and 16s? I guess that comes down to money.

J.B. - You are indeed correct- I do believe there is a gulf between between the Northern & Southern Hemispheres. However I do strongly feel it's not as big a gap as many folk suggest. That said, even if Wales had rightfully won yesterday's match, I remain firm in my conviction in what I said several months ago in one of your previous blogs ( "ARE THE AB's BEATABLE"), that there would only be one winner in this WC. After we prematurely bowed out, my weight of support was wholeheartedly behind the other 91Èȱ¬ Nations sides. I would so much have loved to have had Wales there next Sunday;- sadly the half French / half Irish Alain Rolland had other (arguably correct ideas).

My main argument is we (SCOTLAND in particular) but also the other 4 home nations) are not that far behind. Let's continue to try & get our children off the couch/ computers, and on to the playing fields. Let's also as a nation get behind whatever Scotland team takes to the park (Rugby/ Football/ Tiddly Winks) - win or lose.

Hi John

Never thought that I'd have to say this but the ref saw it as a red card so it is a red card as, to paraphrase the late Bill McLaren " he is sole arbiter of the law".
If you don't like that then you can complain to him, oh no thats soccer!! Its what makes our game so great that officials are not remonstrated with, although I do think it was a red card personally as he lifted the player then dropped him to the ground.

On another point when is a ref going to pull up the feeding at the scrum, today both teams were terrible and not a single ball was "hooked" just rolled in to the second row. As an old hooker it was a joy to pinch one against the head, now you would need 10 foot long legs to drag it out of the oppositon second row!!!!

Of course it was a red card and it's becoming extremely boring to read how Wales were robbed. Even after Warburton's dismissal Wales had the opportunity to win the match and they failed.
The same can be said for South Africa in their failure to beat Australia in their QF match. The constant carping about referees really needs to stop.
Have to agree with you JB on the difference between the North and South... the semi final last night between NZ and Aus was played at an intensity and speed that the NH sides very rarely reach.

Agree with you John. I think they're seen as harder cos they'll take more flak from the nation if they fail; Rugby has a higher status; competition for places is upped and the nation refuse to suffer fools gladly.
As a Scot, there's only one team that can represent me on the pitch and when they fail, I'm annoyed. However, try to vent criticism and you're deemed not to be 'a true fan' or 'not backing your country'. No sooner had we been knocked out of the RWC then the twitterati started with the 'We're soooo proud of you' tweets. I was disappointed but as a nation there was no outcry...this wouldn't have been kept off the front page in the S.H. They'd have been up in arms. So I don't think our team is soft...but the nation's attitude towards them is.
I remember Gary Armstrong saying if you'd had a poor game, you knew all about it when you walked down the street in the Borders. Has that passion and expectancy gone from the fans?
We're still not trawling the net far enough to get kids involved from all backgrounds. As a teacher, I know that kids being exposed to rugby is not good enough. Sorry, but we haven't seen hide nor hair of any development officer in our school and there was zilch publicity to schools about the RWC.
Re the red card, with you 100% on that. Very few of us have the talent to have made it as an International and considering the high number of our past and current players who disagreed with it, I'll go with your and their expertise. 'Letter of the law' applied to all situations would indeed confirm our game as 'soft'.

The main reason the Scottish rugby team fail to deliver ( in my view) is the level of competition that exists just below International level. Plug into the internet and have a look at the Super 15 final between Melbourne Reds and Canterbury Crusaders. Any of the six nations teams would be hard pressed to compete in this speed of game.
Also, do you remember what happened when the Scottish players on the disastrous 1983 lions tour to NZ came home? A 25-25 draw with The All Blacks at Murrayfield followed by a Grand Slam! Beattie Snr. may even have been playing!!
I would send Edinburgh & Glasgow across to NZ every close season to play some Super 15 sides and even Inter-provincial sides. I believe Argentina will progress unbelieveably in the new 'Quad-nations' when it gets going.

Philip "2" - agree totally with what you wrote
" John, I think that your comments about Alain Rolland are wrong and ill advised given the ban handed out today and the statements from the IRB on the subject."

It is so easy to comment on incidents after looking at "X" number of replays from "Y" angles
Rolland had a split second to judge what happened and he " read it as he saw it "
The ban handed out surely says it all !!
JB . Wonder if there would have been so much hype if this incident had happened in say a Rumania V Georgia match ?
Doubt it very much !!

To 123-a-Leary

I was lucky enough to play rugby in both Oz and NZ for a short while , albeit back in the 1960's , and their " hardness" then had nothing to do with the media .
It was down purely and simply to " application" and a will to succeed regardless of the level you played at - I believe the same applies to-day
I had played here at a decent level , probably equivalent to to-days Premier 2,
but training,coaching and encouragement were on a completely different level to Scotland.
The " six weeks without a win but what a social life " culture just did not exist , especially in NZ.
If we want to become a top rugby nation the game here has to be built FROM THE BOTTOM UP , not from the top down .
Do SRU have the ambition to do/attempt this ?
Not a " snowballs chance in H..l " - at least not as long as the present incumbents remain

I agree completely with "jdships" @ 12.17 on 17th Oct.
Total change is required from the bottom up.

To JDships: Do you really think the IRB would do anything but back their man in such a high profile game? Are you really that naive? Also the ref chose to make a 'split second' decision as you put it. He has the option to consult. Again, I'll go with the lads who play at that level and face it.
Agree re the set up of SRU. Was the point I was trying to make about it being better rolled out to all youngsters. Disagree that the higher importance placed on rugby elsewhere doesn't contribute to pressure on the boys to perform consistently.

Correction to my previous post @ 12.14 on 17th.- Super 15 Final was between Queensland Reds and Canterbury Crusaders NOT Melbourne Reds. It makes great viewing!

John,

Regarding Scottish rugby's development and the improvements sought regarding our professional teams and international performances, I've got a couple of points and ideas I'd like to share:

1) I think Andy Robinson's doing a grand job and I'm relieved we've secured him through to 2015.

2) I thought - as is perhaps typical - that we were incredibly unfortunate not to progress into the quarter-finals of the World Cup; our boys had great attitude and were terrific ambassadors for Scotland.

3) I think Dodson, the new Chief Executive's ambitions are to be commended, particularly to have rugby as the number one sport in Scotland. It can be done, especially as Scottish Football dips further into the doldrums.

4) So many of the teams at the World Cup have commented on how, in their preparations for the tournament, the players have felt closer, better prepared and more instinctive of one another. Obviously, training and playing together over the course has galvanised their abilities and group mentality. Scotland players have said the same. Therefore, if this truly is the case, can't we use these experiences; the strengths of playing and being together more often, and incorporate them into a new national model, rather than only being able to capitalise once every 6 Nations and World Cup...

...how's about a 'Club Scotland' team; a choice first XV that's cherry picked by the national coach, Mr Robinson, reviewed half-yearly on performance, and plays in the leagues and competitions, week in and out. I guess it would be a third professional side but essentially, it'd be an elite team which operates as the Scotland XV out with the international windows. Players would be on 6 month contracts and train and work with the national coaches, daily.

I'm not sure how the finances would be worked out between sponsors, clubs and the SRU but I'm sure it's possible.

Edinburgh could play out of Goldenacre or somewhere smaller - as is needed anyway - and the 'Club Scotland' team would utilise Murrayfield. Maybe then, we'd build up a truly unique model in Scotland, win competitions in the leagues and European competitions, and improve internationally too. We'd breed success, create a buzz around rugby and players; it'd become attractive, marketable and interesting to follow.

Just a thought.

I am really surprised at the opposition to the correct application of the law of the game in accordance with the zero tolerence directive issued by the IRB in 2009, re-issued in 2010 and reminded to the coaches just prior to the RWC by Alain Rolland on Saturday.

Do that many people really want to see a player have their neck broken before accepting that what Sam Warburton did was dangerous and warrants a red card?

That being the case then I would not encourage anybody to take up the game, never mind aim to play at the highest level.

As for Rolland's decision not being "in the spirit" of the game, I don't think that Vincent Clerc thought that being tackled like that was "in the spirit" of the game.

123-a-Leary

Why shouldn't the IRB back Rolland ?
He did nothing wrong as far as the rules go.
Never let the truth get in the way of a good story
You speak about " I'll go with the lads who play at that level and face it."
I have spoken with three ex internationals since the game
They all admit they thought " red card" when they saw it live but only changed their minds after watching "X" replays from "Y" angles - something Rolland was not able to do.

Re
" Disagree that the higher importance placed on rugby elsewhere doesn't contribute to pressure on the boys to perform consistently."

In my experience , certainly in NZ, allbeit a long time ago, pride for their club/town was instilled into youngsters from around 11/12 and this was built on to create a performance standard which they were encouraged to achieve .
They were coached in such away that they even enjoyed coaching nights .
As they grew older all sorts of methods were used to make the game attractive .
Forwards playing as backs /backs playing as forwards once a month on practice matches to improve skill/ball handling levels'
Of course there is pressure there will always be in sport to improve but if the coaching is handled properly that pressure can be productive.
boys thrive on success !!

For jdships
Think you're missing your own point about Rolland being backed. I'll let you read over your initial comment and work that out.
The twitter feed I saw showed many current and passed internationals call it wrong pretty soon (within minutes) after it happened. Rolland didn't have replays but if it's a red, he wouldn't have changed his mind anyway. I think it looked worse in slow mo and defo warranted a yellow. However, the kicks were missed and the drop goal bottled too.
I see you're still comparing NZ to here. Alas I doubt Rugby will ever have the profile it enjoys there. Wander into any P.S in NZ and I bet they can name their captain; how many of our P.S kids could name ours?
As a coach, I'd argue that our kids enjoy the sessions too. Maybe a change to summer would make a difference...but something needs to be found to help us soon. Alas those truly interested are themselves becoming disheartened.
Apologies for the spelling mistake but it won't let me scroll back on my phone. :-)

I'd say I agree with you, but the French don't use their fowards because they don't need to so much, their back play was astounding against England and if they play like that again they have a shot against New Zealand.

3.AHR. I disagree with you because I do not feel that Sam showed a disregard for the player's safety. It was dangerous, but not intentionally so. I think referees need to be allowed to use more of their own initiative and discretion when making decisions. As far as I am concerned that decision has ruined the World Cup and we, the rugby viewing public, have been deprived of seeing the side that deserved to be in the final from playing there. We have also been deprived of seeing the exciting prospect of the young improving up and coming stag Sam Warburton against the great exciting established Stag Richie McCaw.
Personally, I agree with the pundits who said that in what was such a huge decision in the context of the whole World Cup, that Rollands should have bought himself some time by calling his Touch Judges over to consult them before making the decision. And frankly if that is a red card offence then the Law is an Ass and needs changing.
Indefence of Allain Rollands, though he is generally one of our better refs. and apart from two ridiculous decisions (the kickable penalty against France when the Welsh player did not release on the floor) he had a good game.
I do think it makes a difference that it was a Semi final that had a major influence on the outcome of the whole World Cup rather than Georgia v Romania in a pool match for minor placings. Because it has ruined the World Cup for rugby viewers the world over and it has potentially had a major effect on the outcome of the whole tournament.

I hope to heaven that NZ close out the final, hopefully convincingly, because France have got to the final without turning up at all ( apart from about 15 minutes against England) which is a great shame for the tournament.

All a matter of opinion as usual. !
Let's hope we do not get to a situation where foul play is ok as long as it wasn't deliberate
Why should I not compare NZ to here ?
Of course we will never reach the standards of NZ but is it wrong to aspire to better things ?
Surely you agree we can learn something from NZ/OZ/SA et al or is your coaching manual the be all and end all ?
I too have coached and would agree that at least up to 12/14 changing to a summer/spring format could help.

As fantastically as the Welsh played, and they should rightly be proud of themselves in this World Cup, they actually had the opportunities to win that match and should have done. It is staggering that they missed so many kicks at goal and then having played so wisely, failed to engineer a good opportunity for a drop goal at the end of the game.

Silverhooker - I so agree with your comments about feeding into the scrums - so frustrating to see that art being lost from the game.
I have been encouraged that teams have been given the opportunity to play the ball away from a collapsed scrum rather than just resetting it. I think this is great. If the ref does not see an obvious infringement he should allow the attacking side to move the ball from the base of a collapsed scrum, provided they play the ball immediately. That way everyone will get up straight away from the scrum and if there is an injured player as a result of the collapse it will be immediately apparent and the game can be stopped.

jdships & Phillip,
I am sure nobody is saying that foul play is OK as long as it is not deliberate, but a penalty or at worst a yellow card would still have been punishing foul play. If we are going to make rugby 100% safe I will not want to watch it and I would not have wanted to play it. Unfortunately life has risks and if you risk assess all risk out of life it will be so dull it isn't worth living. As players we recognised that risk every time we went out to play and accepted it - at least most of us did.

I honestly don't think it has anyting to do with ferocity, skill levels are what separates north from south.

I remember going to all the matches at the '91 WC at Murrayfield. In one of the matches against Romania i believe Scotland had a scrum in the 22 about 15 yards in, Gary Armstrong span a pin-point pass from the base of the scrum to centre-field where big Gav Hastings hit the ball at top speed and rode 2 tackles to score under the sticks.

None of our current squad scrum-halfs could deliver such an accurate pass and none of our 3 quarters could hold such a pass or break the tackles. What does this tell us? well skill levels in our current players are nowhere near good enough and when you consider that they're all professionals and the '91 boys were amateurs then that's an embarassing regression in skill levels.

Results that Scotland have had against South Africa and Australia show that we have the ferocity to match them but we don't have the ability to match their skills. The movement and pace of the NZ vs Aus game was a joy to behold - if Scotland tried to play rugby like that then we'd be knocking the ball on constantly and presenting turnovers all over the place.

persius
Sorry if you misunderstood what I was saying .
Agree totally , otherwise , with what you have said.
I believe this was a particular "type" of foul that could have had horrendous consequences .
There is foul play and there is foul play !
We have all put ourselves about a bit if we are honest !!
I played the game from age 10 until my mid 40's ( when I found it was taking eight days to get over the knocks instead of the usual six! ) and enjoyed every minute of that time
Agree with this 100%
" If we are going to make rugby 100% safe I will not want to watch it and I would not have wanted to play it."

Am just introducing my youngest g-son ( 10) to Sunday mini and he is right up for it and his mother is pleased for him !!

Great news - I hope he gets 1/4 of the fun we got from playing the game, (whatever level he achieves) and the friends we made in the game and I hope you and his family get alot of pleasure from follwing his progress. Because that's really what its all about.


However, I honestly do not think Sam's tackle had any malicious intent and he just happened to time the tackle spectacularly well. The player was dropped and not "fired into the ground". I doubt if Vincent Clerc in the cold light of the following day would have had a serious issue with the tackle.

Previous comments were addressed to jdships, of course!!

persius

Thanks for that !!
The great things about rugby are the pleasures of playing/watching/making friends and the unending memories one has.
Wish I was 70 years younger and starting out again age 10 !!!!!!!!!!!!!

John

Completely agree with your observations about the abrasiveness and skill levels of SH players. The problem is what to do about it? NH players (well some of them) are at a similar level, but for most International players in NH they are behind in skill and in, well, hardness. The 80/20 rule applies here, so that to get the 20% improvement, they really do need to put in 80% more work. You make the point about Kieran Read and Ritchie McCaw not being supermen, but when you look at all AB teams, they are all athletes, fast, strong and able to give and take a pass, make a tackle or join a ruck, so they are well able to play a 15 man game. It is also clear that they have the confidence and patience to hold on to the ball until the chance comes for a break, instead of trying to make something happen in 2 or 3 phases.

I have to say the AB v Aus game was great viewing, intense rugby, and I just can't see past NZ for the Final. I can't imagine how Wales and Aus are going to get themselves up for the 3rd place play-off game though!

I actually think Wales might be seriously well up for that play-off game and for that reason I think they might just nick it. I think they will be fired up to do it for Sam and also to prove a point to the world what might have been. My only concern is who they will have at open side and how that person will cope against Pocock. I think it might be an entertaining match and Wales will have loads of support.

Your point about hardness and skills is very valid. I played in SA for a few years and everything they did was at pace on hard ground and rarely wet (on the highveld that is). Their mentality was different, lots of the teams had prayers before the game and focussed on their rugby all week. People in their towns/dorps knew many of the players. The pace and power came from full on practice sessions, no holds barred.

If we want to get there, summer rugby would help with conditions and hopefully numbers. Not competing against football in the same season would help too.

John,
"we are not on the same planet as Australia, New Zealand and South Africa at the moment."
Sorry I do not agree at all (exception the ABs).

Ireland V Australia 15 - 6
Wales V SA 16 - 17

Not the same planet??????????????

What an embarassement "to be" French after the game last Sunday...
15 players V 17, one only try from the team of 14 men...!!!????

After the performance of New Zealand (top level), I fear for France next Sunday.
However, with my pals we thought, after losing two games in the pool and being in the final, what a strange destiny...

It would be great to do something special to make excuses to Wales.

Made a mistake,
"15 players V 17" 15 V 14, and only one try in the game, and from the welsh.
How are we going to score a try against NZ, a magic...

The crux of your question, you articulated earlier in the week, when you stated that West Coast of Scotland/Glasgow Rugby players did not have the same mind set ergo commitment, attitude as the rest of Scotland. Given this is Scotland's most populated area, and then by default the country is already well behind in numbers.

These "guys" can look the part, can play the part but don't deliver consistently, with enough intensity or physicality. It's more than attitude it's a lot to do with being lauded far too early, getting rewards far too early and in effect being all but molly coddled.

When I worked in Glasgow early 80’s the Glasgow teams had the sobriquet “when the tough get going the Glasgow boys go skiing.

Whereas the NZ players may not look like Supermen but really don't have to be to play Scotland/Ireland/England/Wales and perhaps France in competitive games.

They can keep their "strength" for the games v Australia, South Africa and shortly Argentina.

So let's instigate a cultural change in the Glasgow/West Coast area for starters? Scotland needs more players with a mentality like Kellock, Gray, and Strokosch.

#32

Let us start with parity of funding for both Professional clubs, etc. Which I have said many many many times in other post in other JB blogs.

Until we lose the old school tie SRU, we're going nowhere.

just read this blog, but I am getting tired of the ref bashing.......silverhooker you clearly know the game and I totally agree with you.......we all know that there was no intent and no motion to drive Cleric in to the ground but the rules state clearly....
Rugby Law 10.4 (j) Lifting a player from the ground and dropping or driving that player into the ground whilst that player's feet are still off the ground such that the player's head and/or upper body come into contact with the ground is dangerous play and as such a red card is recommended...........and whilst the majority of people would disagree with it why should a top ref be slated for abiding by the laws.just because other refs chose to ignore it in earlier games ...........joubert got the final cause he is a top ref and very laid back and will not make dramatic calls for the sake of it, but check out who the touch judges are.........I would love Wales to have been there but the truth of their defeat lies closer to home and the small matter of multipile phases in the French 22 late in the game and nobody making the correct call