91Èȱ¬

John, isn't squeeze ball illegal, i recall this being done a few seasons back and a lot of club referees cracking down on it? The long lay off is good but given it exposes more of your body to shall we say, errant feet, especially soft flesh bits like the back of the knees etc, I know , myself as a player, i might just stick to the technique i was shown a season or so ago, jackknifing into effectively a U shape, thus reducing the size of the gate for the opposition and making yourself as narrow as possible.

By the very nature of 'squeeze' ball, it is illegal surely not? You have to play the ball with your hands on the floor!

It is also not without risk to the player, as you go head first, and push your hands under your body, giving you no protection to your neck and head.

I thought squeeze ball was illegal because it puts pressure on the neck? Or am I thinking of something else?

John - I think the answer really depends on the fitness of your players. Also I think it is extremely important for players to have a plan b if for any reason the referee doesn't like plan a or your are getting a lot of balls nicked.

I still like to see players when they are going into ruck knowing what is happening around them. If the player realises he is a bit isolated he needs to make sure that he continues to drive until support arrives. Providing support gets there and drives over quickly I don't actually think it makes much difference as to what method is used when the player hits the ground. Good rucking technique is the key and a good understanding of what method of presentation of the ball is going to be used.

4 weeks to go! I've got 7 weeks where I hope that the club have enough front row so I can be a replacement for the 2nds (I'm getting too old!!!!)

Squeeze ball is illegal at amateur level (i've been penalised for it several times these last few seasons!!) but for those able to utilise this, it is an excellent option for presenting ball on your own side after contact.
However, given the changes in the breakdown laws, and the adjustments made by players when making tackles, it is more difficult to be able to get to the position to present a squeeze ball, within being penalised for holding on (unless you get tackled in just the right way!!)

I always prefer presenting the ball whilst forming a U shape with my back towards the defense, place the ball back with hand, then protect head with hands. Its the way I was taught to present the ball, and still seems the most effective.

Wasps were disappointing at the breakdown last season as were Ireland. The All Blacks weren't neither were Scotland.

It is quite simple - from the RFU Youth Variations "UNDER 13 TO UNDER 18 INCLUSIVE :
Squeeze Ball - Law 14 and 15
No player involved in a match at any age level from under 18 downwards shall use in training or in a match the technique known or referred to as Squeeze ball."
It is regarded as dangerous as young necks are not as strong as the professionals, and the risk of a heavy forward landing on someone only resting on the head whilst squeezing up their body is regarded as too much. Once you are grown and still playing rugby from 19 onwards then you are considered as being stronger.
However as a grass roots ref - if it looks dangerous and someone is going to get hurt, taking into account thier age / strength and experience I will stop the play - and always always give a penalty if under 18's do it - sends out a quick and positive message.

I agree that the squeeze ball does provide greater protection of the ball. It may be more useful if the ball carrier has become isolated. On the other hand, if support is there jack-knifing/u-shape on the ground and lying across the pitch makes it so much easier for supporting forwards to then ruck-over and clear out. They can step across the prone body rather than over.
I agree with post #4, if your players are fit enough and will be there in support, jack-knifing and getting the ball recycled quickly will surely be better for you.

I'll summarise nice and quick, Squeeze ball is illegal in youth rugby, however it's perfectly legal in men's and women's rugby. It doesn't matter if professional or amateur level it is allowed to take the place, the only time I'd personally when refereeing stop the contest by blowing up is if I saw someone's neck or head trapped (as mentioned above) or if players joining the ruck are preventing the defending team from fairly challenging for the ball. Obviously with how the rucking laws have changed in the last 3 years it is growing difficult to referee in the lower leagues but as long as you are fair across the board and interpret the rules fairly you generally don't get any complaints.

John, I think you choosing whether to play squeeze ball or not comes down to your team's abilities and whether you want to play a forwards or backs orientated game. Slow it up and pick and drive with the forwards will result in playing safe with squeeze ball, however it will affect your backs ability to play wide.

Personally I'd advise trying to play the first 2 phases tight, if you use squeeze ball you can usually commit a few opposition players, then from the third phase let the ball come back and make some space and quick ball to let your wingers get their hands on the ball.

The player taking the ball into contact has to decide what he needs to do in order to try and keep the ball. Players are taught to try and keep themselves up in the tackle to try and give their support more time to get there, then you go to ground and set it up.

The "squeeze" ball is worth doing if you know you cant achieve that, as it does allow, as you have said, the time for support players to get there. The referees are the ones that decide if you are going against the laws of the game in that instance. As long as you have pushed the ball back, you have released it. It is a bit naughty but as far as I am aware as a player, there is nothing concrete in the rule book that says we as players in contact cant push the ball under our stomachs and out from under our hips. It does mean that the SH may have to dig a bit, but better that than losing the ball if you have managed to get away from your support, in the first place. Coaches will 100% prefer that possession is maintained, rather than lost and the job as players is to maintain possession and put as many points on the board as possible.

From the 2010 edition of the IRB rule book

15.5 THE TACKLED PLAYER

(a) A tackled player must not lie on, over, or near the ball to prevent opponents from gaining possession of it, and must try to make the ball available immediately so that play can continue.

Open to interpretation I admit but would this not mean that if the squeeze was not done instantly then it would be viewed as 'lie on or over the ball to prevent opponents from gaining possession'?

John,

There are quite a few laws in youth rugby that are different due to health and safety concerns, especially when the neck and head may be particularly at threat. For example the scrum laws only allow for the scrum to move up to 1.5m, in the instance that one team is getting a huge push on the other team you have to stop play there and then. No pushover tries in youth rugby I'm afraid. But it's for the best. That's why recently when all the calls were made to get rid of scrummaging there was a bit of an uproar from all corners of the rugby world, as the IRB has already made a great deal of considerations.

Other scrum rules include the wheeling of the scrum illegal in youth rugby, as well as this the ball must be released from the back of the scrum as soon as it comes to the back. This is to cause as minimal contact time as possible and prevent sustained pressure on the necks.

Regarding the US, I am certain they will be a major force in Rugby Union within the next ten years. Now that olympic gold medals can be won in the sport, it will be only a matter of time until they have a much larger playing base. Their 7s team has already come on leaps and bounds in the last 3 years and that'll only work wonders for the 15 a side game.

P.S, wish your son well and a speedy recovery from his surgery.

Is there a case to use both tactics during a match based on the field position when the player goes into contact?

If you're 10 metres away from the opponents try line then presenting the ball as far back as possible and allowing the scrum half the best opportunity to recycle the ball quickly would be the way to go. Conversely, if you're camped out in your own 22 then ensuring you retain the ball in contact and clear your lines would be the priority, so perhaps the squeeze ball is the better option.

Regardless of which way the ball is presented, the key thing is still supporting the man at the breakdown, I've lost count of the number of times I've been tearing my hair out at Scotland not having numbers quickly enough at the breakdown after a line break. Although last year was very encouraging as this wasn't so much of a feature in Scotland games.

John,

The 'long' reach would appear to be the trend(?) this also narrows the 'gate' yes? (ref's)

Regards the US, I have been living here for 5 years down in Jacksonville Florida. Played for the first year or so then/now coaching....they have great big, strong, athletic guy's and when/if Rugby can crack it here, they will be a force.

Please give Dunc a nudge.

Almost sounds like overcoaching to me John, if you go with one way of play at the breakdown then other teams can easily crack how to defend against you and also their best option to steal the ball.

Better off making sure your support players are getting to the rucks quick enough to allow either option to be employed depending on the scenario. Also, no reason why they can't drive into contact and still be able to turn to present the ball so the squeeze ball option to me has little benefit, I'd take good presentation over an extra few cm's any day of the week.

Post # 1 - Coully, I happen to know for a fact you'd just stick your head down and run into the opposition!!!

I have always been trained to beleive that the squeeze ball is illegal at amateur level.
Are there perhaps any variations in the laws of the RFU to the SRU with regards to this?
Post # 17 - Agreed, Coully definitely would just run directly into the opposition!

As many posters have already pointed out, the "Squeeze Ball" is not illegal at Adult level... this does not stop a lot of refs in am-level from penalising for it, I got pinged at least twice last season for this.
Rather than favouring one style maybe you should be teaching 2 or 3 different methods of presenting and what circumstances to use each. A varied game plan is going to help adapt to how the opposition are defending and any ref that doesn't like the squeeze.
I suppose this does depend at what level you are coaching?
I guess it is horses for courses... If your driving into a thicket of forwards and expect to be stopped, putting your head down and driving in is an effective way of staying on your feet and waiting for support. It also has the advantage of sucking in a few defenders. Good for hard yards but not fast ball.
If you know your support is with you then possibly the quick drop and present is the right and fastest option.
If you think you can sniff a gap put your shoulder down and go for it!!

JB, the rule quoted by Leith1297 is quite clear as is your interpretation of it. However, placing the ball away between your legs in contact is not 'squeeze ball'. 'Squeeze ball' is when the tackled player frantically pushes the ball from under his body to down between his legs - as the Irish mid-field did all 6N this year. It is hardly immediate and certainly not one move.

Referees fooled again!

One comment I'm not sure I saw mentioned concerns game awareness, namely finding that you may not have been tackled.

I was always a lumbering prop, but I've seen several quick thinkers pick the ball back up before a ruck has formed and make a second dart. Generally these people had two things in common: great wherewithal and lying jackknife or u-shape across the pitch.

They just planted their hand on the presented ball, sprang to their feet, picked it up and went. I don't think the squeeze position allows this as easily; it's difficult to spring with just the power of your neck and even if you did, you're generally having to backtrack to the ball, and assuming that it hasn't squirted off somewhere or rolled away.

Don't know if it tips the balance, but that's my two pennies.

I agree very much with the blog.

Pressure at the point of possession is vital in attack as well as defence. It is also what makes rugby work, because it makes it necessary for players to concentrate at the point of possession, and in consequence creates space for the backs. "Squeeze" rucking is not the only way to force the defence to commit numbers to stop the opposition at the point of possession, but it is one, and I'd be sad if the legislators ruined it.

That would compound a situation which they've already contrived, by which the premium on getting in after the ball has diminished, and the field is cluttered with forwards. In times gone by, a team could only do that if in effect it relinquished the loose ball. Now, it is a rare thing to see backs "stretch" an opposing defence with well-timed passing at pace and effect breaks as one did in days of yore, because there are forwards all over the pitch, and the only hope is to try to wrong-foot a particularly dopey one.

Whether the squeeze ball is illegal or not is a moot point to be honest because so many laws are broken in this aspect of the game it becomes a lottery of which offence the ref might penalise or choose to ignore. In the Southern Hemisphere, refs tend to ignore all but the most blatant offences in this area, whilst Northern Hemisphere refs tend to be a bit more strict.

Of course, the masters of this area have always been Leicester Tigers. They get away with it most of the time but in every game I have seen involving the Tigers, there are a plethora of offences being committed at ruck time by thier forwards, most of which they get away with. Good luck to them. Coaches through time have always sought ways of beating certain laws, and many of the most astute do manage it, but they will call it 'stretching' the law.

As far as I am concerned, when a player is brought down, the law is quite succinct in that the tackled player MUST release the ball. However, at professional level, most do not do that and you will often see a ruck being formed, with a numbers of hands from the floor slowly pushing the ball back to their side. TV cameras catch this action at almost every ruck. Technically, this is illegal as it is 'hands on the floor', but for the continuity of the game, most refs will turn a blind eye.

So John, as former international, you should be well aware of how to 'bend' the rules ;)

If you can coach your players to do so subtly and without risk to their health (ie. exposing 'tender' parts to being stepped on on 'passively' rucked), then you could produce a very effective forward unit.

You are an intelligent and clued-up guy and am sure that you can analyse many things that could be 'stretched' in regard to ruck-law, then try it out to see how often (if at all) a ref picks your players up on it. Well drilled packs (a la Leicester) can do it so smoothly and effortlessely that the refs simply fail to see it, or believe they saw it.

Lastly John, would be good to hear your views on the coming season with the Italians in the Magners. Might be a good subject for your next blog. Personally, I think they will struggle this season, but (as is the idea) they will get stronger in the coming seasons and I expect them to improve year-on-year and eventually become a strong addition to the Magners (it took their International side a few years to settle in the 6-Nations after all). I do expect them to spring a few surprises this season though, especially when they are playing at home !!

Hi, I'm a referee in league rugby in Yorkshire and my interpretation is as follows: squeeze ball is LEGAL as long as it is IMMEDIATE. This is to say that the ball must be moved from underneath the ball carrier's body in short order.

Why? Because if he moves the ball promptly, and his support players are not there in time, then the ball is presented (between his lower legs) and is available for a defender to come (through the gate) and collect the ball - just as he could if you were presenting the ball in a 'traditional' fashion.

It is perfectly legal at adult amateur level, but is prohibited under the laws at U19 and below, as has been observed above.

Why are some of you reporting getting 'pinged' for it at amateur level?
Well, firstly, as always with our great game, different referees interpret different areas of law in different ways. Without seeing individual incidents it's impossible to comment specifically. However, some referees may be penalising you if your squeeze ball is not instantaneous.

So if a ref believes that you are delaying moving the ball under your body and 'presenting' it between your legs until you are certain that your support players are there to protect the ball/clear the ruck, then that IS illegal. Leith (#13) is bang on - if it's not immediate, then it's the equivalent of 'holding on'. Philip (#21) interprets the Irish midfield play of last season similarly to me!

Wingman (#18) - the laws are set by the IRB so I would be very surprised to find any SRU variation in this area.

Rikbroon (#16) is absolutely right about the long reach narrowing the gate. If you fall horizontally in contact (i.e. sideline to sideline) then the gate is defined from your two widest points - head to toes - thus giving the McCaw's of your opposition's back row a big target to aim at. If you fall vertically (goal line to goal line), then the gate becomes extremely small - the width of your shoulders - which SHOULD make it much harder for defenders to approach the ball legally, and more likely for penalties to be forthcoming for 'side entry'.

Speed is the essence, whichever method you use. If there's a delay in presenting the ball (quite common with squeeze ball at amateur level) then you run the risk of being 'pinged'. I am often asked in pre-match "is squeeze ball okay?". The answer, invariably, is "Yes, as long as it is immediate".

One final observation! For those of you playing at amateur level, try (it is hard!) to disassociate the match you are playing in on Saturday afternoon with the professional game you saw on the TV. There are vast differences in terms of what is seen (TV cameras, assistant refs, 4th official, TMO) at that level to what is seen in your game (one pair of eyes), and refs at amateur level are simply looking to apply the laws. Some may be better than others, but the VAST majority are not being 'biased'. There's a slightly worrying trend of dissent creeping in, a la football, based on the fact that people see it happening on TV. Professionals tread the line between 'query' and 'dissent' very effectively. Amateurs are less refined at it and it can leave a bad taste for refs who are also giving up their Saturday afternoons so you all get a game!

I, like HarrogateWasp, am a referee in league rugby in Yorkshire. All I would add is that if you play the squeeze, refs will straight away be thinking - squeeze ball -> slow play -> tackled player under pressure -> look to penalise tackled player.

Playing it away from your body, and the tackled player can usually gain a second or too for his team by holding on with his hand so long as not too near his body, with the ref's thought process being positive play -> look to penalise defending team.

Re dissent - I usually carry a simple solution in my right shorts pocket. And it comes in a choice of 2 colours.

HarrogateWasp, well said. Especially the final paragraph about refs and dissent, I think that's something that people might be beginning to forget.

In terms of the original discussion, I agree with rickeo's first post (#10). Presentation technique should, at least in part, depend on the type of game you're trying to play. A forwards-oriented game with lots of pick-and-go, crash balls etc will probably be more suited to squeeze-ball, as speed is less important. If you're trying to get the ball out to your backs fast, and expecting loose forwards to get there quickly and clear out, the quicker methods are probably better suited. Of course it's situational as well (e.g. a few slow phases then out to the backs might require both types)...

Overall it's probably more important to ensure that you're getting the ball back, and maintaining player safety, so you'll have to judge based on your players' abilities.

John,

You need to teach and train your players to use a variety of types of presenting the ball, not only based on the fitness and the contact situation they find themselves in, but also for the referee you may have for that particular game.
Most referees at amateur level will allow the squeeze ball only if they are able to see the ball presented almost immediately, some may be a little more lenient but its rare, however there is one particular referee at our level who always begins his team talk with "..as the for the squeeze ball, i didnt like it as a player and i wont tolerate it as a referee, i dont care who was doing it on TV last week! The only game you need to worry about is the one today which i am refereeing!"

Teach you players a wide variety of ball presentation, teach them to assess their situation and use the appropriate technique, but always check with the referee when he turns up for his interpretation on certain aspects of the game. if you know a certain referee wont allow it or wants an immediate presentation of the ball (thus negating the whole point of the squeeze ball in the first place), you know not to use it in that game, or only at certain times and your team talk prior to kick off can reflect that.

as far as I am concerned, squeeze ball is not illegal per say, as long as the ball is played immediately. that is to say, the player must fall onto the ball and play it between his legs, and not fall on his side and roll over. I also beleive what some referees term "triangle" ball is illegal in which the player raises to his knees and plays the ball between his legs, creating a trangle and creating a situation in which serious neck injury is possible.

In my opinion it is a judgement call by the player, if he is over the gain line and has plenty of support, jacknifing is most effective, if however support is not there, or it is from a pick and go, then squeezing is the most effective.

To clarify, I am coully!
@ WingManMike_Aberdeenshire- I may run straight but i also catch and hold onto the ball too, you may wish to take note!
@ abzrugby, simple stuff 1st then flash later!

John,

Yes your Bro. He's a good coatch too BTW!!

Very interesting debate and I've read all the comments with interest.

My take on it is that squeeze ball is an essential skill for players to be coached but using it regularly means some part of the game is not functioning as it should.

Squeeze ball is effective when ball carriers get isolated, turned in tackles or hit front on which makes it difficult to present the ball cleanly. However possession from these situations will always be slow and difficult to attack from.

To play "good" rugby we want fast possession with the ball cleanly placed back as far as possible. To achieve this players need to fix defenders and attack space to force side on tackles. This gives the oppotunity to either offload out of the tackle or present the ball back cleanly. We also need support for our ball carriers. NZ aren't the best team in the world by accident - their support play is so far ahead of every other team at the moment that they are rarely turned over and more often than not win quick possession.

In summary, I think squeeze ball is a necessary evil and needs to be coached (the how and especially the when) but players should be encouraged to develop the skills so it is not necessary to use it.