91Èȱ¬

Great blog!
I think you have covered all european teams well. Though I would like to add that despite the large percentage of leinster and munster's teams consisting of homegrown talent, finances still have a huge part to play!
This is reflected in the fact that a few season ago munster signed doug howlett, whereas ulster signed timoci nagusa, an amateur player who spent his time as a policeman in flip flops in Fiji. Obviously munster's recent success compared to Ulster has a big part to play, but those two irish provinces along with the likes of the ospreys and the blues have a significant financial advantage over the likes of Glasgow, the scarlets, ulster and of course connacht. I would also like to add that the attendance figures and fan base sizes do inevitably contribute to financial strength, but ulster have proved that this isnt neccessarily the case.
With the previous 4 teams mentioned able to attract foreign players at the peak of their careers and be able to put out 2nd string teams brimming with quality, i think a divison in the magners is likely in the future, even with the brilliant performances of glasgow and the dragons!

And I agree that its unbelievable the number of great teams in the top 14, and that there are so many new strong teams that haven't been powerhouses in recent years. If french teams had performed well in last year's heineken cup i would completely agree with you, but I agree that french dominance is a real possibility!
Bryn, do you think not participating in next year's heineken will have any great implications for Stade?

You journos are all the same. I know you have to write something, and an analysis of the final is clearly beyond you, outside of mentioning the English players and ref taking part, but why not remember that last year there were no French semi-finalists. One data-point does not make a trend. Yes, Toulouse are the most successfull in the competition, but very closely followed by Leicester, Munster and Wasps. I'm sure i can make an argument from that single data point, without opening my brain cell box, to suggest that England dominates the competition.

Valid comment mrskellysson, although to be fair the article offers more than that one point.

I happen to believe the French will dominate for a while yet; partly for the reasons already mentioned, but also for a reason that struck me very clearly last autumn.

Did you notice how dominant the French tams were in the first few group matches? They were blowing away teams that should, by rights, at least have made a game of it (as an example taken at random, I remember Biarritz-Gloucester). It was in those early games that the French team assured their qualification and the English teams fell by the wayside.

The reason for this is extremely simple: the French Top 14 starts fully one month before the Premiership. By the end of August teams like Toulouse and Biarritz have already played 3 Top 14 games, while the clubs this side of the channel are still in preseason. It's hardly surprising that when the first round of HC games comes along, the French have a massive fitness advantage - match fitness and conditioning.

Money partly explains things but I for one think the real edge comes from the earlier start to the season.

Once again we see the english teams whinging. Haven't they learnt after the Tigers pathetic attempts to get the Ospreys thrown out that no one like a sore loser. There is a more serious note that was not included in the peirce:

THE FRENCH SALARY CAP

This comes into force next year, as well as restrictions on the number of foreign imports, which will have an impact ion the French teams. There have only been three all french finals since the cup started so get off your backsides, play a better brand of rugby and stop whinging.

Quite why this is French domination? Perhaps we should look at the 6 nations post the last three British and Irish Lions tours and see who has won the Grand Slam on each occasion? Granted the same trend is not true of the HC winners but surely this is likely to be a factor.

Ultimately the bulk of the squads of British teams are going to be made up of british players. Granted, only a minority of these will have been on tour but it still disrupts pre-season preparation and these are likely to be key players for these teams i.e. the O'Driscolls etc who have suffered effectively long bag to back gruelling seasons. Granted if this becomes a consistent trend it might be worrying but please, lets not turn one year into the end of the world. Perhaps you're being a touch melodramatic

its good i think as long as english players get contracts allowing them time off for internationals that they are getting the big bucks abroad.

players like lund and balshaw will be keeping french players out of the team while young english players will be playing heinikan cup with our poorer clubs next season

Goranth,

As a fan of the Blues, I am tired of the Ospreys supporters "Victim" attitude to everything that has happened to your side this season. You seem to be sore at everyone taking exception to your teams failings this year on a number of issues, including failure once again to perform at your self-perceived levels of excellence, even with 16 players on the park.

Change the record.

The european scene is great, we go through phases where one country seems to dominate more than others, and I'm sure that this will look different again in a year or two - maybe even Welsh or Scottish representation in the semi's or final!

I think you have also got to consider the fact that home advantage plays such as huge role in the HC. Had both Leinster and Munster had home advantage we may have been looking at a completely different final. Certainly in Munster's case (And I am a Leinster fan). Also the OSpreys were very unlucky in the quarters.

The Lions test also took it out of the Irish contingent (as it did the British teams too). IF the trend continues I'd start to worry but to me it is only natural the French have a few all French finals and I believe they have won a grand slam in most of the years after a Lions tour.
(From an Irish perspective I am very worried about some of our star players and their fitness for the world cup next year). Some of our guys will have been playing for 2 - 3 years straight,

I can't believe bryn has failed to neglect the fact that most of the players in the guiness premiership and Magners are finishing the season off the back of a Lions series!! the UK and Ireland teams have always been competitve in the HC, it's just a long season with injuries has hampered some clubs. Yes ok, the French clubs do have financial muscle but i dont agree that because there are two french clubs in the final we should be pushing the panic button just yet.

Ride that band wagon!! Really, French Rugby is ruling the roost for sooo long. all of 11 months. scary. Especially when you consider the margin's they've better the other teams by. a few points. scary. again.

To your credit though you do have an uncharacteric (for journalists) look past recent months at why English teams have not done well. (I'd say now that Irish teams can be "happy" with two competitive semi-finalists).

Yes, two of our form teams from last year were taken out at the knees by scandals. Bath have recovered well but Quins, who were a better team IMHO, are still gasping for air. Injury meant that Leicester played academy players in the early encounters (and still nearly made it out of a pool of death). Only London Irish should be shamed. Winning against the current champs to throw it away... Northampton did well but were outclassed by one of the great european teams in the quarters.

That's all. Nothing to worry about the French taking over the world.

Okay, well do the NZ, AUS and SA sides need heaps of money to produce the incredibly talented players they have? Bryn, I think you're failing to realise that greater focus on academy players and having a conveyor belt of talent coming through the ranks is far more important if ya wanna compete at the highest level. Look at Munster, Leinster, Glasgow, Ospreys, Blues etc. 91Èȱ¬ grown talent comes to to the fore!! There could be positives to come out of this salary cap for the English clubs no?

the fact of the final taking place in paris seems to have made the difference this year and of course both french semi finalists receiving home draws was very important...that said next year could be very different...as a leinster supporter i am fairly optimistic....felt the loss of elsom would be big but heaslip has stepped in to fill the breach...i expect both scottish clubs to improve and the ospreys will always figure...regarding the english i think they have too much on their plate and like the french the home leagues in their respective countries seem as important if not more so....

I agree wholeheartedly with comment #12 from Alex. The salary cap could be a blessing in disguise.

French rugby is certainly going through a purple patch as regards their homegrown players but I think it's important to understand that this has happened despite rather than thanks to the unlimited resources of their clubs. The current young generation of French internationals are very good but it's no thanks to the way the Top 14 works.

If you look around the top French clubs (and some of the bottom ones too) you will see that a great many of the key players in each team - the playmakers, the decision makers, the numbers 8, 9, 10, 15, are in fact non-French.

This will eventually do a great disservice to French rugby, in much the same way as it is currently doing a disservice to English rugby. It won't happen yet but maybe in a few years time the tables will be turned - in the HC but also in the 6N.

Bryn, first and foremost - you either had an extremely large ladle in one hand typing this or you are trying to find excuses for the english public to focus on for the apparent lack of success both at club and national level.

stade francais were bad this year due to lack of cohesion, management structure, player squabbles and disciplinary problems - nothing to do with their budget. in addition to that the likes of racing, toulon have come and upset the cream of the crop in france of toulouse, clermont, biarritz, perpignan. brive and castres are rollercoaster teams of developing young french players more than being continually successful.

with all these teams mentioned, yes some of them have big named international stars, but then toulouse - are 90% french. perpignan, are almost the same. clermont last time i checked have a handful of stars that are from overseas. toulon, maybe an exception but its taken them just over 4 years to climb the heights of the top 14 and went out in the playoffs last weekend and i believe will challenge well next year.

racing, in my opinion were a real team this year, a solid group effort from the main team to the understudies, helped enormously by steyn obviously but also a man in the background who everyone knows as andrew mehertens who has become instumental in guiding toulon and racing through the proper channels of creating a successful TEAM.

rugby is more prone to human frailties than football. so i think the top management of the irb erc etc will stamp down on the lavish amount of spending and wages that can possibly be spent. but to have a group of stars bought in like racing did just now, bergamasco, hernandez, fall, durand and brugnaut i believe they will inevitably fall short next year of this seasons promise. they will not have the same cohesion and mental awareness of each others game plans.

munster, leinster, toulouse, leicester, wasps, biarritz, ospreys have started to look at the real winning formula of creating the solid team first, then bringing in a few individuals of worth to bring fill a particular weakspot between 1-15 and give them that little bit more. john langford jim williams shawn payne trevor halstead brought it to munster, elsom contepomi nacewa to leinster, brennan brought it to toulouse initially, leicester and wasps need no explanation - ospreys have worked immensely hard to get to where they are and are finally starting to reap the benefits - magners league final this year and im my opinion definately capable of winning it. all these teams are mostly filled with national stars and then the odd gap is filled by a foreign 'international'.

its my opinion that even if you have the biggest budget some of the biggest stars - rugby will still not get you anywhere near the success levels of soccer with the same backing. one man can make a soccer team with a lot of average individuals, you would need at least 11/12 out of 15 performing above average to have any sort of success in europe in rugby. the teams that have won the tournament are a testament to that fact.

there are so many things wrong with your article thats its almost impossible to comment on them all. at least you have a good opinion of the english teams that were extremely unfortunate in my opinion.

oadbywygg1 if you had checked my profile you would see I am a BLUES fan not a tweety birds.

My complaint was about English teams Whinging - get the record straight before you attack someone.

Did you notice how dominant the French tams were in the first few group matches? They were blowing away teams that should, by rights, at least have made a game of it (as an example taken at random, I remember Biarritz-Gloucester). It was in those early games that the French team assured their qualification and the English teams fell by the wayside.

The reason for this is extremely simple: the French Top 14 starts fully one month before the Premiership.
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We had the Lions tour remember.

A great article Bryn. A really good read.

Bryn, I understand the debate, I, personally just would hate to see the UK open the reins for a financial frenzy, all it does is seperate the rich from the poor and as we have seen in the premier league the past 15 years, it has been dominated by 2-3 clubs and been tarnished boring. Can you imagine a sheik turning up at the stoop? Unfortunatly like everything else and money talks, so im afraid we will be going down that route and very very soon. Goodbye Rugby

the problem is that the english teams may have a smaller wage bill, but they don't use this to their advantage. the irish and welsh regions will have 5 or 6 top foreign players, homegrown internationals and then youngsters that they are looking to bring through. some english clubs will have a match day 22 with 16 or 17 non-english players in it.

yes ireland & wales condense their players into 3 or 4 teams, but then their player base is 20 or 30 times smaller than england's. england should be able to fill 12 teams with english talent, with 5 ot 6 foreigners per team, without any real worry.

in this sense, relegation proves to be a problem. why develop a young player if it will take 2 or 3 years for him to come good? teams like leeds, newcastle and next season exeter/bristol--- these teams are fighting relegation right now. they havent got 2 or 3 years to develop a player, who will be snapped up by a bigger club anyway.

GP clubs need to get around a table and dicuss limiting foreign players. the french are bringing it in, the irish and welsh have their limits.

i also refute this idea of relegation having an impact--- it doesnt seem to have hurt the french teams or national team this year. really, what are the chances of leicester being relegated? pretty slim.

the top premiership clubs, who can affrd to spend right up to the salary cap, are not going to be relegated. the day they suspect otherwise is the day the league gets pushed up to 14 teams or ringfenced--- both options they are already said to be looking at.

Bryn, thanks for the extra comment. I had sincerely thought you were of the opinion that the money will envelope the European rugby teams like it has soccer so much that France will continuley be champions.

i think these fears of the coaches are excuses to appease failures to top management. i cant agree with the fact of substantial monetary backing has the same impacts in rugby at all.

an additional valuable comparable statistic to take from this years h cup semi's to the super 14 playoffs, a home team has not lost a semi in the last 8 years in the southern hemisphere. if the Irish teams had played at home, i think we would definitely have had a split final.

i quite enjoy your blog's and this was in fact a great read as usual. Looking forward to being in the Stade tomorrow for a great match between two great teams of pure passion, heart, strength, teamwork, ethic and the majority homegrown talent! What rugby is all about


ps compare that to tomorrows champions league final. how many foreigners on each team????

The introduction of the Italian teams to the Magners should shift the balance of power, not just strengthening them, but making all the other league teams stronger on the strength of the product. The Irish and Welsh teams will have a bit more money, and crucially, as hinted at, a more solid base of continued involvement to work from. The three Irish teams in particular have never been displaced from the tournament start sheet by Connaught, get good home crowds, and have massive talent pools to draw from (although Ulster seem intent on watching theirs disappear). In the end, the combination of factors should be enough to keep them competitive even the face of Gallic wealth.

There will be an advantage until the big two in Ireland don't get such a leg up from the IRFU and the lack of competition in the ML - too easy to qualify, too easy to stay up......

MrsKellysson fails to pick up on the most important fact in Bryn's blog and that is the escalation of finances that are pouringIN to French rugby. Yes, Leicester, Wasps, Leinster and Munster have had dominance at times and this side of the trench has enjoyed considerable and well earned success. BUT with money going out of the game as quickly as it's coming in the 91Èȱ¬ nations clubs are going to find it tough going to keep players. Already we are getting some real talent taking the silver to France, Sackey, Haskell, Wilko, etc etc and with Saracens operasting a revolving door from SA the Premiership is getting to look less like it used to.
Let's come clean we do not posess the money rich extroverts that seem to emerge every year on the continent; so let us ensure we play within our means keep the players fresh, reduce the number of games they play and that way we will enjoy a higher standard of rugby, less feuding within the ranks of the RFU and the Clubs and if that means we do not win European Cups, so? 17 years ago we didn't have them and we still loved the game.

PJL wake up mate Munster and Leinster are running on a budget similar to that of the Premiership (rumored to be around 450k Euro (abour 400k Stg). Granted Munster fills TP to the brink and in a year or 2 our 2nd Stadium will hold close to 20k spectators too that provides some extra cash but our success isnt caused by money... Wake up and smell the roses! Also Ulster has some high level players too (didnt they just sign a certain mr Rush?_)
Also 4 teams in Ireland for about 4 to 5 million inhabitants compared to close to 50 (FIFTY) million in England...

And

All not irish qualified players contracts HAVE to be approved by a comity.

Bottomline is that the biggest advantage Ireland has is that it's players want to fight for their team (look at Connacht).

Hermmy wrote "If you look around the top French clubs (and some of the bottom ones too) you will see that a great many of the key players in each team - the playmakers, the decision makers, the numbers 8, 9, 10, 15, are in fact non-French."

Whilst agreeing with your point that the salary cap should help bring through home grown talent, you need to have a look at the key positions playing for the top french teams (Toulouse, Biaritz, Perpignan & Clermont)
8's - Picamoles, Harinordoquy, Vermeulen/Bonnaire
9's - Parra, Yachvilli, Elisalde/Michalak, Durand
10's - Skrela/Michalak/Elisalde, Peyrelongue/Traille/Courrent, Laharrague
15's - Poitrenaud/ Heymans, Brusque, Baby/Floch

Even Stade Francais have Dupuy and Beauxis. Every major French team apart from Clermont has a french hooker. This depth of home talent in crucial positions must be helping the French National team develop. The French strength is in their pack and the depth and class of forward they have is phenomenal. It wouldn't be unfair to say that probably only a fully fit Andrew Sheridan and Simon Shaw would come anywhere near making a french team.

Compare this to the premiership, where the final will be contested by a team with an entirely foreign 8-9-10, along with Bath who have a Springbok 8-9-10 axis and practically every team having at least 1 non-english hooker.
What I have enjoyed seeing this year, is genuine QUALITY english players coming through and playing alongside international stars. The likes of Saull, Goode & Cato will have learnt from their colleagues at Sarries, and Barkley, Banahan & Mears will develop from having people like Watson and Butch James around.

The crucial thing is balance - English rugby won't improve if we keep seeing talented young English players left out of teams for Non-english players of dubious quality - Tom 91Èȱ¬r/Peter Hewat at Irish or Goode/Houghaard at Sarries, and if we keep expecting our players to play far more games in a season than Tri Nations & Magners players with no summer break.