TRANSCRIPT
William Hague - Conservative Party Leader
and John Humphrys
John Humphrys
When William Hague won the leadership of the Conservative Party four years ago the party was reeling from its worst defeat in modern political history - shattered, totally demoralised. He warned that it would take a long time to put it together again and restore its popularity. Well, it has been a long time and the opinion polls today suggest that the party is every bit as unpopular as it was four years ago, Mr Hague himself more so. Mr Hague is with me. How much of this is your fault as leader, Mr Hague?
William Hague
I don't accept what the opinion polls say. I think we're doing far better than at the last election. I think we've had a cracking good start to our campaign. The feedback that we're getting from around the country is very pleasing from our point of view and so I think we're having a very good campaign, and of course in that time that you're talking about - the last four years, we have won most of the elections that we've fought - the European elections, most of the local elections, these have been Conservative victories.
John Humphrys
You say you don't believe in the opinion polls. Why do you spend money on them then?
William Hague
Well, I don't spend a lot of money on them at all. We spend very little money compared to the Labour Party that run everything by focus group and decide every opinion they ever put forward by consulting a focus group, we do not spend a lot of money on opinion polls.
John Humphrys
But you do spend money on the opinion polls and if you didn't believe in them, that would be a terrible waste of money.
William Hague
They are never more than one guide to what is going on and they're a very very fallible guide. In three of the general elections since 1970 the party that won the election was not the party that was ahead in the opinion polls.
John Humphrys
And there has never been a period in political history where the polls have been as consistent as this, and when they have shown such a disastrous set of results for the party in opposition.
William Hague
Two years ago I was on this programme and many times in the run-up to the European elections we talked about the European elections, and every time you or your colleagues asked me about the opinion polls, which showed us 30 points or more behind, now what was the result of those elections? A Conservative victory, so I don't think we ever have to be side-tracked or put off by opinion polls again. This election is about the opinion of real people. It is not about the statistics of opinion polls taken among 1000 people and as the Labour Party found out yesterday, when you actually go out and meet some real people around the country, they are not enthusiastic about the government and they want to know what the alternative will be.
John Humphrys
Let us assume that you have, if not a major problem which you deny, at least a little bit of a problem, and to have this sort of poll rating is not something that you cheer about in your bath every morning, I suspect, though I may be wrong about that, but let's assume that that is the case. There are three things, four things we look for really from our political leaders, aren't there? They're integrity, intelligence, judgement and firm leadership. Can I suggest to you that on the question of judgement you have shown time and again over the past four years that you get it wrong - too often, small things like saying let's have Princess Diana Airport after the death of Diana instead of Heathrow Airport, but an awful lot of very big things. You got it wrong originally, you changed your mind and now it's part of Conservative policy and people say if he can do that so often, why should we trust him?
William Hague
Well, obviously I disagree with that analysis.
John Humphrys
Which bit of it?
William Hague
Well, the whole of it because I think the Conservative Party is in a far stronger position today because of the judgements...
John Humphrys
...far stronger position today?...
William Hague
...well, there is no doubt that it is in a far stronger position today because of the judgements that I and my colleagues have made over the last few years. The Conservative Party at the last election, as you remember, had a certain difficulty over the European issue and that was the talk of the whole election campaign. In this general election the Conservative Party goes into the general election committed to being in Europe, not run by Europe, committed to keeping the pound and with an overwhelmingly united party. Now some people have made a lot of judgements along the way and a lot of people have told me I am wrong in what I laid down on European policy four years ago, but the result is that this party is in better shape to fight this election.
John Humphrys
You did not believe in a minimum wage. You said it would destroy jobs. The next Conservative government will not repeal the national minimum wage. That is now the position. You offered us a tax guarantee. We pledge that taxes will fall as a share of the national income. That was what you said last week. You told the Financial Times that we are not saying no tax will ever go up, it depends on the circumstances.
William Hague
Periods in opposition are when parties do change some of their policies and yes, we have changed our approach to the Bank of England, to the minimum wage. Yes, of course we acknowledge that.
John Humphrys
And we can add on to that. I asked for a little list the other day. I've got four pages of it.
William Hague
But if politicians are not allowed to re-evaluate their policies and update them in opposition, Tony Blair would never be allowed to open his mouth at all because he has changed every single thing, or claimed to change everything the Labour Party stood for and argued that black was white...
John Humphrys
And he ran as New Labour. Maybe you should run as New Conservative.
William Hague
Well, we don't have to disown our past. We do not have to say everything we stood for was wrong.
John Humphrys
But you're just having to disown all the policies that you had. I mean, explain away the tax guarantee. We pledge that taxes will fall. That was an absolute rock solid guarantee and one year ago it stood, today it no longer stands. Indeed, you're now acknowledging that taxes could go up.
William Hague
Clearly, our plans are to reduce taxes. There is no doubt about that. That has been, what all Conservative governments are trying to do and it has been the whole direction of this Conservative opposition over the last four years that taxes should be lower.
John Humphrys
In the ideal world, but maybe not.
William Hague
No, not just in an ideal world. In this world, in the practical real world we live in today - in America, Germany, France, Italy, these governments are reducing taxes. The competition for jobs and businesses in the world is with countries that are reducing their taxes and one person's tax rise now is another person's job loss.
John Humphrys
Well, we know the arguments for it, but what you once said was there will be no tax rises, that taxes will fall as a share of the nation's income. You're now telling us that maybe - you don't want it to of course, but maybe they could go up. The two can't be true, you see. That's the problem, isn't it.
William Hague
What we say, and it's very clear, is we have a clear plan. We have set it all out in our manifesto to reduce taxes.
John Humphrys
But you had one a year ago and it's changed.
William Hague
No, no, no...
John Humphrys
...no?...
William Hague
...we did not have a clear plan then...
John Humphrys
...what?...
William Hague
...we do have a clear plan now.
John Humphrys
Your pledge that taxes will fall?
William Hague
Because the plan has been fed out over the last year by Michael Portillo
John Humphrys
I'm sorry. You didn't have a clear plan? We pledge that taxes will fall. What's the audience, the voter, to make of that?
William Hague
The difference is that in the manifesto we've set out eight billion pounds of public spending changes.
John Humphrys
Or seven, depending on who you listen to in your party.
William Hague
No, no, eight. Anyone who reads it knows that it's eight...
John Humphrys
...well...
William Hague
...eight billion pounds of tax changes. That is a clear plan. That is what we've set out over the last year and so yes, we have developed our position on taxation into a clear plan of what we will do.
John Humphrys
Well, developed is an interesting word, isn't it. I mean some might say that's a sort of weasly politician word. We look at the situation, we think we're not going to get away with that, Michael Portillo comes in, says this plan is absolutely rubbish and the first interview he does he says, we've dumped it, we've dumped the guarantee. That's what actually happens, isn't it?
William Hague
Well, some might say, but developing a clear direction and commitment to lower taxes into a clear plan of how you do it is the absolute common sense straightforward way to do it, and then to present that plan to the electorate...
John Humphrys
...common sense? That's...
William Hague
...and that is what we are doing and we're the only party that has a plan for doing that, and it is the most detailed plan ever produced by an opposition in a general election.
John Humphrys
But again, you know, who do we believe because we hear another of your men saying 20 billion, and then he gets locked away for 48 hours while you apply the tweezers to his toes or whatever you did and he comes out and says actually it wasn't like that at all. I mean, we don't know what to believe, do we?
William Hague
Everybody says in the Conservative Party, including him, by the way, that 8 billion pounds is our commitment on tax reduction in the first half of the Parliament. Yes, we would like to make other tax reductions in the future, but they depend on the state of the economy, they depend on the money available at the time. We've set all that out, page 16 of the manifesto has it all set out. It is not a mystery to anybody that that is the plan of the Conservative Party.
John Humphrys
Well, married tax allowance. Another mystery to people because you attack the government for abolishing the married couples' allowance, pledge to reintroduce recognition of marriage into the tax and benefit system and what did we see eventually? A revised version of the allowance giving a tax break only to married couples with children under 11 years old where one party stays at home with the child and presumably, they live on the left hand side of the street and their surname doesn't end in F or something. I mean, again you had a clear policy. You persuaded us or some of us that it was a good one and then you dumped it.
William Hague
Clearly, we are bringing back in married couples' allowance. There is no doubt about that.
John Humphrys
Well, sort of.
William Hague
Yes, it takes a new form, but we want their help.
John Humphrys
Well, it's a pathetic version of what you had.
William Hague
Well, it isn't a pathetic version to married couples today with young children under 11, who will be up to £1,000 a year better off because of our policy. These people are being clobbered by the Labour Party. This is why when Labour finally go out and meet some voters, they find a different reaction from the one they expect. People have been hit on their petrol, their pension, their marriage, their mortgage. They have been clobbered by stealth taxes left, right and centre and at last there is a party saying we are going to do something about that, but we are going do something about it and we have a clear proposal to do so, the plan we've set out.
John Humphrys
Let's talk about your leadership then because those are policies which I suggest to you have been changing right, left and centre. Let's look at your leadership. You've had a number of tests of your leadership. The most recent was when John Townend stepped out of line over you signing the compact with the Commission on Racial Equality. You waited for several days until all sorts of threats were made from other members of your party before you took firm action against John Townend. We were therefore invited to believe that this wasn't a matter of principle for you. You weren't saying I am going to deal with this man firmly because of what he has said, which was absolutely unacceptable. You said, well I don't agree with John Townend, but there you are, if he wants to say it, effectively let him say it. It took a very long time for you to come down on the side of principle.
William Hague
No, it didn't. My position with John Townend was always very clear. I repudiated from the first moment some of the comments that he had made. I also asked him not to say such things again and now he did say similar things again, and that is why I then took firmer action against him but remember, John Townend is not even a candidate.
John Humphrys
That's not the point. He's a member of the party. The point is that he's a member of the party and as a member of the party, as a member of parliament, he speaks as do all the others presumably - we have to believe this anyway, presumably - for the party, so when he said the things he said, you didn't say I'm going to kick you out of the party if you do that again. You said look, I don't agree with you. That's it, full stop. End of it.
William Hague
I said, I don't agree with you and shut up, and he didn't shut up, so I next said I don't agree with you and if you say it again, you're out of the party.
John Humphrys
No, it took Lord Taylor to say I'm going to resign from this party unless William Hague does something.
William Hague
It wasn't easy saying those things to John Townend. So I think we handled that in exactly the right way and I think we made it clear what sort of party we are. John Townend is not a candidate and indeed, no longer a member of parliament. There are many people who are Conservative candidates now from all communities in Britain. I was in Bradford three weeks ago. Most of our candidates from the Asian community, most of our councillors there are British Asians, the first two British Asians elected to the European Parliament are Conservative members of the European Parliament. I'm proud of what we're achieving bringing people into politics from many different communities.
John Humphrys
Why did you allow yourself to get suckered into signing that particular compact in the first place? If you talked to a few of your people you would have realised that it was a daft thing to do. You can't say that I promise not to beat the wife up tomorrow morning. I mean you can't make people do that.
William Hague
Thank you for the nicely unloaded way of asking why I signed the compact, because I believe in the compact, because I am against racism, because I think parties in an election should commit themselves.
John Humphrys
But you can't say on behalf of my members I am going to say they are against….surely that's down to them if they want to do so...
William Hague
...of course I can say that. I,m the leader of the party and I have committed them all to that and I will take action against any candidate who defies that and it is entirely in my right to commit the party, saying we are against racism. That does not mean we are not going to debate the asylum issue because that is an entirely separate issue and the people of this country know it is a separate issue, so we have every right to debate that issue but we are against racism and we welcome people of all races, origins and communities into the Conservative Party.
John Humphrys
If the Conservative Party had one the last election would you have stuck to the spending plans that you had put forward, your party, had put forward before the election?
William Hague
Well those spending plans only went two years ahead...
John Humphrys
...indeed, would you have stuck to them for two years?
William Hague
...for two years and I imagine that John Major and Kenneth Clarke would have made those decisions, of course they would have tried to stick to those plans, as would the Labour Party.
John Humphrys
I say that because Michael Portillo on this programme last week said there's been a failure by this government in the first two years they've tightened the noose on the health service and on education. Well that's a slightly bizarre thing to say isn't it? Since you would have stuck to those plans yourself.
William Hague
Well, they've tightened the noose on, in many ways...
John Humphrys
...they've stuck to your spending plans...
William Hague
...on many people...
John Humphrys
...they've stuck to your plans...
William Hague
...they've tightened the noose in many ways, because what did they do? They wasted the money in the Health Service by, first of all by reorganising GPs costing tens of millions of pounds when they could have spent it actually on patient care...
John Humphrys
...they've stuck to your spending plans...
William Hague
...and they have allowed bureaucracy to grow but they haven't been spending all the money on the actual patients.
John Humphrys
All right.
William Hague
Do you know they are spending millions of pounds on the Health Service preparing an accounting system for joining the Euro, would you believe, at the moment. That money should be spent on patient care and that lady who was giving Tony Blair a piece of her mind yesterday, the money that is being spent preparing for the Euro could be spent on her partner's operation. That would be a better way to run the Health Service.
John Humphrys
Talking of the Euro, a slightly elliptical way of getting at it, are you fully committed, fully committed to Britain's independent nuclear deterrent. Is that a policy for only the next parliament, or are you fully committed to it in to the future?
William Hague
All of our policies are policies for the next parliament.
John Humphrys
So after the next parliament you might get rid of Britain's nuclear deterrent?
William Hague
It's our policy for the next parliament, for the following election we'll say what our policy is for the coming parliament. That's all any party can do.
John Humphrys
And you're clearly committed to a Britain remaining a monarchy or maybe after the next parliament we might have a republic.
William Hague
Yes, of course I'm in favour of remaining a monarchy...
John Humphrys
...but only for the next parliament...
William Hague
...of course, I'm in favour of the monarchy and I'm in favour of an independent nuclear deterrent and I'm against the Euro...
John Humphrys
...but only for the next parliament...
William Hague
...but I am standing for election for this parliament and for this government and there is no ambiguity about my position on the Euro. I am against it.
John Humphrys
...but there is exactly. In principle you mean...
William Hague
...for the next parliament...
John Humphrys
...but you are against it in principle, you are against the Euro in principle so you have said in the past, and so most of your members say.
William Hague
You of all people are familiar with my position because we have discussed it...
John Humphrys
..indeed...
William Hague
...about 150 times...
John Humphrys
...and I am still, as many people in this country are, puzzled by it...
William Hague
...and I will give you the same answer, which is that I am against the Euro. Partly because of the economic risks involved, I also think there are great political and constitutional risks and people say to me you don't have to worry about that. Actually we wouldn't loose our right to run our own affairs in this country if we joined the Euro so I say well, prove it to me. Let's see what happens over the next two years.
John Humphrys
Why move your position?
William Hague
To all the...well you do know my position...
John Humphrys
No no, I know your position. What I'm saying to you is this, since you are opposed to it in principle, since you think it poses risks to the British constitution - than which there can be nothing more important in your eyes - you are still not prepared to say for reasons of expedience you see, for reasons of expedience, we will hold on to the pound forever. We may dump the pound next year, or next time around, is what you're saying?
William Hague
No, expedience is sheer logic. Some people say you don't have to worry about the political or constitutional risks. I say well, let's see what happens to all the countries that have joined the Euro over the next few years. We will find out what happens to their political constitutional right to govern themselves. Now that's why our position is keep this, to be committed to keep the pound, for the coming parliament, for the coming government. And again, it's a fundamental choice being made at this election, the Conservative Party will keep the pound, the Labour Party by hook or by crook will do away with the pound.
John Humphrys
What should happen to John Prescott as a result of what happened yesterday? One of your candidates has said that he ought to resign. Should he?
William Hague
I think he should learn to keep his cool. I think if he was in my party I would be demanding and requiring an explanation of what happened yesterday.
John Humphrys
Well the explanation was that somebody threw an egg at him, he thought he'd been hit, and he lashed out.
William Hague
Well let's see all the detailed explanation and I think that given that there may be legal processes that will be followed here that we shouldn't all get into the fine detail of it. But we're all, in public life, put in positions where people try to provoke us. It happens to most of us on the election campaign trail every day and we all have to learn to keep our cool. So I think it is very regrettable, I think he was no doubt rattled. And at the end of the day when Tony Blair and Jack Straw came face to face with real voters who, no longer, who just do not accept the endless spin and flannel they get from the Labour party. That lady was very upset.
John Humphrys
Given there were a vacancy - would Michael Portillo make a good leader of your party?
William Hague
There are very, very many people in the Conservative Party who one day would make great leaders of the Conservative Party.
John Humphrys
Including Mr Portillo?
William Hague
There is no vacancy.
John Humphrys
...ssiluding...you'd include Mr Portillo?
William Hague
I'd include a great many people.
John Humphrys
...ssiluding Mr Portillo?
William Hague
There is no vacancy.
John Humphrys
You would include him?
William Hague
There is no vacancy.
John Humphrys
But having said you would include a great many people, he would be included in that?
William Hague
I'd include a great many people.
John Humphrys
...ssiluding Mr Portillo?
William Hague
...a great many people...
John Humphrys
...as well as Mr Portillo?
William Hague
A great many people.
John Humphrys
Well that's it, I tried five times, William Hague.
William Hague
Well done.
John Humphrys
Thank you very much indeed.
William Hague
Thank you very much.
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Please Note:
This transcript was typed from an on-air broadcast and not copied from an original script. Because of the possibility of mis-hearing and the difficulty, in some cases, of identifying individual speakers, the 91Èȱ¬ cannot vouch for its accuracy.
