TRANSCRIPT
Tony Blair - Prime Minister
and John Humphrys
John Humphrys
When Tony Blair invited us to make him Prime Minister four years ago, he was a relatively unknown quantity. He'd been in politics for a long time but he'd never served a day in government. He told us at his victory party that a new dawn had broken, his would be a different kind of government - Well has it been? Mr Blair is in our radio car in his constituency for the first of our Leader interviews this week. Good morning Prime Minister.
Tony Blair
Good morning John.
John Humphrys
You said that your government would be purer that pure - has it been?
Tony Blair
Well I think where we haven't been, where people have fallen down then action's been taken against them, but I think on the overall record of the government in terms of economical stability, investment and public services, the measures we've taken to make this country fairer and stronger, then I think that even though there is a very great deal more to do, we can be proud of what we have done.
John Humphrys
Purer than pure is a very high standard though isn't it, and if you have in your government still, a minister about whom very serious questions have been raised, then you have to wonder whether that very high standard has been met, don't you?
Tony Blair
I think what you've got to asked is, if there are questions raised well what are the answers to those questions, are you actually on the answers not the questions.
John Humphrys
Well difficult in the case of Keith Vaz to know what the answers were if he failed to deal with allegations against him from the Parliamentary Standards Commission and Miss Philkin. Eight times he did that, did you not say to him look you should have done this?
Tony Blair
But he did deal with those allegations and you'll remember that the actual committee that investigated this recommended that no disciplinary action was taken, and all I say to you about Keith Vaz is that each time one of these allegations is made they are looked into very carefully, there turns out to be nothing in them and people then just simply move on to the next allegation. You'll also recall that where all this began which was the so-called passports for cash affair when that was looked into by an independent inquiry by Sir Anthony Hammond QC, he looked into it very, very carefully found there was absolutely no substance in it whatever, so I find it very odd if you are saying that he should be dismissed from government, when the allegation made against him was inquired into and then found that there was nothing in it.
John Humphrys
Well you're telling me that if nothing was found to be in it, the fact is he was rebuked by the committee for failing to co-operate therefore we cannot know whether there was anything in it can we?
Tony Blair
Yes we can because they looked into those allegations and they recommended that no disciplinary action be taken.
John Humphrys
Mr Vaz's behaviour was not in accordance with his duty over accountability under the code of conduct that's what the committee said - Is that being purer than pure?
Tony Blair
Yes but John, as I have already explained to you, and I have to say I do find it absolutely extraordinary you've got one of the two people here who could be Prime Minister of this country on June the eighth, and you've got issues to do with the economy and schools and hospitals and crime and Europe and issues of fundamental importance to the country. What you are raising are a set of allegations that were made, which are a stream of allegations that have been made against this particular minister, all of them were looked into. In respect to the vast majority there was found to be no case to answer, in respect of one aspect, there was found to be a case to answer but the Commons Committee recommended no disciplinary action should be taken.
John Humphrys
No, can I tell what I am trying to do...
Tony Blair
Hang on a minute John, in those circumstances to say that the man should be dismissed I think is a little harsh.
John Humphrys
Can I tell what I am trying to do, it was your ambition to restore trust in politics in this country, to clean it up. What I am saying to you is that nothing is more important than that. It happens that after four years, and I am not suggesting this is your direct fault, the fact is trust in politics in this country, is according to all the measures that we have lower than it has ever been. You said that you wanted to be purer than pure, on that basis all these questions should have been addressed, I'm suggesting to you more directly and more firmly because it isn't only Keith Vaz, there's the case of Geoffrey Robinson as well, against whom many charges were found to be proven.
Tony Blair
Well hang on a minute, in respect to Geoffrey Robinson the committee has given him time to respond and in respect to Geoffrey Robinson I may remind you he left government, but when you...
John Humphrys
He did, but other allegations had been raised against him and proven before he left government.
Tony Blair
No hang on a minute, the allegations raised against him were not proven, there are a fresh set of allegations and he's been given time to respond, but he is actually a back-bench member of parliament. But when you raise the issue of trust in government surely the most important aspect of trust in government is whether we deliver on the promises that we set out, on the issues that really concern people, on the issues that I'm sure your listeners would like to hear about.
John Humphrys
It's all sorts of things surely...
Tony Blair
But hang on a John let me just finish this, because when you talk about trust in government, I think questions of course have to be asked from the politicians, maybe some questions should be asked from people like yourself as well. Surely the question of whether we delivered economic stability in the way that we promised, we said that we would be a different Labour government from previous Labour Governments matters. Surely the issue of whether we've delivered on the pledges that we set out in schools and hospitals and crime matter. Surely the pledge as to whether we could lift a quarter of a million young people off benefit and into work which we've actually done. Surely that question and whether it's been delivered upon is also of relevance to trust in government, so when you talk about trust in government, of course you guys, your agenda want to focus on the individual conduct of individual people, but I think for the country far more important is whether the government is pursuing the big aims and objectives that determine the future of this country, and the future of this country is not going to be determined by Geoffrey Robinson or Keith Vaz, it's going to be determined by whether we do what we've said we would do on the economy, we make the investment in public services that is necessary, and we set about creating that fair and decent society, where everyone, not just a few, get the chance to see, so surely that is the issue.
John Humphrys
Does that bother you?
Tony Blair
Of course it bothers me.
John Humphrys
Well, let me finish the question if I may because that was a very full answer. Let me point out to you what people say when they are asked about this issue, and this isn't just got at by the media, when you were in opposition Prime Minister, when you were in opposition, you made great play of these matters so let me remind you what people say when they are asked about it. Forty-nine percent of the voters think financial sleaze in government is a major problem. Sixty-six percent think government ministers not being truthful is a major problem. Forty-four percent think that Labour gives the impression of being very sleazy and disreputable. Now whether they are or not, and what I am saying to you, what I am saying to you, is that you set a very high standard and I'm asking you whether you believe that you have met that standard, and whether you have now, because they are both candidates for next, for the coming election, whether you have absolute confidence, trust and support for Mr Robinson and Mr Vaz.
Tony Blair
I would suggest to you that until the allegations against them are proven, and they have not been, then it is very unfair to say that they should not to be allowed to stand as candidates.
John Humphrys
I ask whether you have trust in them and total confidence in them?
Tony Blair
Of course, and what I am saying to you is that until allegations are proven against people, the mere fact that people raise allegations should not be a reason why people should not be candidates. But to go back to the question you were raising about trust in government, whether we have done the things that we have said that we should do, and incidentally I believe that British politics is probably freer from financial problems in relations to individuals than virtually any system of politics in the world.
John Humphrys
That's not the point, purer than pure...
Tony Blair
I would also suggest to you that in the changes, for example made in the funding of political parties, for the first time ever in this election as the result of the changes that we have made, there are a complete set of rules that govern the funding of political parties. But when you go back to the question of cynicism in politics I simply say to you, the big issues for people are the issues I've described for you...
John Humphrys
Yes you have explained this.
Tony Blair
…and then if you actually ask questions about those issues, for example we came into office, and we said this was going to be a different type of Labour government, the worry that people always had about Labour governments would we be a party that could work with business and run the economy well. I think the biggest change in the last four years is that the mantle of economic competence has now come onto the Labour party, a new and reformed Labour party, and you have a choice between economic stability, low mortgages, low inflation, high employment under Labour, or return to boom and bust high mortgages, high inflation, and all the problems of recession under the Conservatives.
John Humphrys
The point I'm making to you is that trust in politics is about more than competence, is about more than managing affairs.
Tony Blair
Of course, it's about more than competence, but surely the big questions in this elections, I mean John really!
John Humphrys
There are many big questions are there not?
Tony Blair
Yes, well let's…we dealt with one that you said are big questions, let's deal with some more.
John Humphrys
Well let me just before we leave that one, let me just be absolutely clear about that last one. You would be happy to go to the constituencies of Mr Vaz and Mr Robinson and campaign on their behalf, you are proud of them?
Tony Blair
I believe that Labour candidates should conform to the highest standards, but it is only if allegations against them are proven that they should be disciplined.
John Humphrys
So was that a Yes or a No?
Tony Blair
Of course, I have already said to you, I have confidence in them as Labour candidates.
John Humphrys
Yes you did, but you didn't say that you would go and campaign for them.
Tony Blair
Well if you want my campaigning schedule.
John Humphrys
No no, I'm asking you if you would be prepared to do so?
Tony Blair
I support them as Labour candidates, whether I'd go and campaign in their particular constituencies is a matter for my campaign schedule, but I support them as Labour candidates because, evidently contrary to you, I believe that unless allegations are proven against people, then they should not be disbarred from being candidates. Now perhaps we can get on to discuss some of the big questions that I think your listeners would probably like to hear about.
John Humphrys
Well those questions, the big questions as you put it, are discussed all the time, as you know Prime Minister, but let me...
Tony Blair
Well really they are not discussed here I may say, because what we've been now, I think almost ten minutes into the interview, you've not asked me a single question on the economy, on schools, on crime, or welfare or Europe, or any of the things that I would have thought your listeners would have like to have hear about.
John Humphrys
I have dealt with a subject that you yourself said was vitally important, restoring trust in politics and I make no apology for that, and I am told by many people as you well know yourself, that this whole area of trust in politics is crucially important, and one of the reasons why I have raised it this morning is that there is a feeling on the part of many people that yours has been a government of spin, and that they can never be quite sure that those things they are being told are actually what the real situation is, or have they been turned and twisted by some of your advisers perhaps, perhaps yourself, perhaps other ministers, who try to present a picture quite the way it appears at the time, and that worries a lot of people.
Tony Blair
Well I think that is a different point, that is a perfectly fair point to make and to raise. I mean on the question of the individual conduct of individual people, all I say to you that when people do something wrong they go from government, but I do just emphasis to you it is not enough for allegations to be made. I mean I shouldn't be doing the job of Prime Minister if I dismiss the ministers simply on the basis of an allegation made. They have to be looked into and found to be proven before the person has disciplinary action taken against them. In respect to the whole issue of spin and presentation, well I agree with you it's an issue for us, but in the end...
John Humphrys
Do you agree with Peter Mandelson this morning, who says we shouldn't rely on the well-worn methods of campaigning, message delivering, rebuttal and all that sort of thing, that's what he is saying in the Independent this morning.
Tony Blair
Well I think there is a very strong case for us to try and get to the substance the whole time. You see what I feel about the election so far if I can say so, is that in a way there have been two elections going on. There's been a process personality election and then there's been policy. Now, I think for example that the policy questions that we have to answer on things like the economy and public services are very, very important for us and we feel very comfortable on it. By contrast you have got a Conservative manifesto totally uncosted, totally lacking in detail, eight billion pounds worth of tax cuts one day, today apparently they are promising twenty billion pounds worth of tax cuts at the same time as saying they are going to spend all this money. They still haven't said, for example, where one and a quarter billion pounds they're taking out of the university budgets, where that money could come from or the five hundred million pounds from single mothers. So I think those big policy questions, the substance questions, I think are the issues upon which we're strong. So in a sense I agree it's far better, never mind all the presentation and all the rest of it, lets get on to the policy substance.
John Humphrys
So the rest of this campaign can we see a bit less of the stage management that we have seen thus far?
Tony Blair
Well, I think it would be a good idea if people concentrated occasionally on the substance of what I say rather than all the trimmings and trappings, but I...
John Humphrys
Well have you delivered that message to your spin doctors and managers?
Tony Blair
Well I don't think all my spin doctors and managers… I mean I tend to sit down myself and try and worry about, as I say, the substance of what I'm saying and I think that, you know, if you take the last few days for example there's been a big argument going on about the state of the economy. Today we have many business people coming out for the Labour Party and saying that Labour today is the Party of business and enterprise. We're running a stable economy, mortgage is low, we've got inflation low, there is the chance now of this country enjoying a stable economic future for the first time in decades. I think that is very important in contrast with the Conservative Party, where, as I say, I think most people believe that their policies are uncosted and unspecific, and on those issues I feel we are very strong. The answer to your question is, well, spin and presentation really, I agree… you know… the thing that matters for us is substance.
John Humphrys
Alright, well lets compare your delivery on tax and spend with what you promised. You had said we have no plans to increase taxes at all. You had said our proposals do not involve raising taxes. You had said there will be no concealed tax increases, no evasions etc. etc. The reality as we all know now is that there have been very, very substantial tax increases since you came to power.
Tony Blair
We made specific promises on tax actually. We said we wouldn't raise the basic or top rate of Income Tax...
John Humphrys
I've just told you what you said.
Tony Blair
We said we would cut… Well I'm telling you what we said in our manifesto… we said we would cut VAT on fuel and we said we would introduce a utilities tax in order to fund the new deal. Now it is correct that in the first couple of years of Government we took some very tough measures, necessary measures, in order to get rid of the huge overhang of debt that we inherited, and we remember when we came to Office we had a double national debt, twenty eight billion borrowing requirement. I was paying out, in my first year of Office, more in interest payments on the national debt than I was spending on the entire school system of the UK. So, you know, I think in respect of all those things it was necessary to take that action, but one of the main reasons why the tax revenue take of Government has gone up, of course, has been the strength of the economy, the numbers of people in work.
John Humphrys
Yes, but you see the problem is if the last time around you said we have no plans to increase tax and we are not going to raise taxes, the tax burden isn't going to go up...
Tony Blair
No actually what I said John was that in the manifesto we...
John Humphrys
I'm not talking just about...people don't only read the manifesto do they, they read...
Tony Blair
No but it wasn't just in the manifesto...
John Humphrys
…they read all sorts of things that you say, and I believe from comments that you've made to the Financial Times and The Daily Express, and to a Press Conference in January '97, all those things add up as well, don't they.
Tony Blair
Well of course they do, but in the manifesto, and I remember this was a feature of the last election campaign. In the manifesto we set out very clearly what the commitments were on tax that we could make. But it is only as a result of taking the action in order to get rid of the large deficit and borrowing that we've managed to get inflation low and interest rates low. And after all, for the fist time virtually in my adult lifetime, long term interest rates are now the same as those of Germany and the United States of America, if not lower. That's a huge benefit.
John Humphrys
And more people are now paying income tax than ever before. Forty five increases, tax increases, have been introduced since 1997. These are things that matter to people as well as interest rates.
Tony Blair
Yes, but if I can just answer those points. I mean the first reason why there are more people paying taxes, there are more people in work than ever before. We have got the highest levels of employment in this country ever...
John Humphrys
...and more people paying income tax at the higher rate, that's gone up by thirty five percent.
Tony Blair
Yes but we have raise the thresholds in the normal way on the higher rates of tax. The reason why more people are paying it, is again because more people are in work and more people are earning more and as for the so called forty five extra tax increases the Conservatives go on about, that is including every single, you know, upward indexed rise in Customs and Excise and all the rest of it. If you took a similar number for the Conservative time in power in 18 years, you would run into several hundred. Now it is correct, I mean I fully accept, there are certain tax changes that we've made, we kept the fuel duty escalator, for example, that the Conservatives introduced. Indeed we increased it from 5% to 6%, we subsequently got rid of that and I would simply point out to you again even on fuel duty that there have been a less of a rise of fuel duty in this Parliament than in the last Parliament, never mind under the last Government. But it is correct, I make no bones about it, in the first couple of years we had to get the deficit down, we had to get national debt down but that was to create the circumstances of economic stability that allowed the Bank of England to cut interest rates.
John Humphrys
You see, why didn't you just say to us before the election and indeed after you came to power, look we are a redistributed Government, we want to tax some people more so that we can give some other people more money. That's what Labour's always done, we may be New Labour but we're sticking to that, because that's what you've done, isn't it, in reality.
Tony Blair
Well I don't know that it is what we've done but in any event it is more important for me not to level down but to level up. And I think some of the measures we've introduced like the working family's tax credit, and the child tax credit, the minimum wage, the additional help on child benefit that we've given to people, I mean, yes those are measure certainly designed to help those people who are in middle or lower income families. But I think that even people on higher incomes have seen great benefits of a Government that's producing, you know, economic prosperity and stability.
John Humphrys
So do you not want to see the gap between rich and poor narrowing, because it's widened over the past four years and if all you are doing ever is levelling up then the gap can stay the same can't it. You're happy with that?
Tony Blair
Well you've got to be careful of some of those figures because they are often based on statistics from two years ago. I mean, actually when you take into account the working families tax credit, and child tax credit, and other measures recently introduced, then I think you'll find that those figures are some what out of date. But to deal with your basic point though, it is of greater importance to me frankly that those that are poor or unemployed are lifted up rather than those who are successful and wealthy are brought down.
John Humphrys
So the gap doesn't matter, if there is to be a widening gap between rich and poor that doesn't matter to you?
Tony Blair
I'm not saying that it doesn't matter...
John Humphrys
But it doesn't matter very much.
Tony Blair
No I'm not even saying that, what I'm saying is the important thing is to try and lift those at the bottom up and provide opportunity for people, and that's the basic difference. What I set out yesterday in my speech in my constituency was really an attempt to say look the defining rationale of today's Labour Party is nothing to do with equality of outcomes or incomes it is about equal worth and developing the potential of people, and that is why education for example is such a huge priority. That's why having raised standards in primary schools, you've got to raise them significantly in secondary schools, why we've got to invest in University's, and science, and technology, and enterprise for the future. So you know, for me the most important thing is to give everyone the chance to succeed rather than saying that I'm against the successful entrepreneurs that we have because I'm not, I think it's a good thing and we need more of them.
John Humphrys
Can I just finally clear up one thing that puzzles many people still, not the standard of the interview you gave to the Evening Standard last week about Gordon Brown and any agreement you may or may not have had, you said you didn't have a written agreement with Gordon Brown to, as it were, hand over the Leadership of the Labour Party to him at some point in the next 4 or 5 years or whatever it may be. If not a written agreement did you have an unofficial agreement? Did you talk to him about it. Did you say well look Gordon I'm sorry you didn't get it this time around, but you know, next time, something like that?
Tony Blair
Well I think I have answered this question...
John Humphrys
Well I'm not sure that you have.
Tony Blair
No, there is no agreement at all...
John Humphrys
...at all? did you talk about it to him?
Tony Blair
I stand for the full Parliament and that's what I do and he's concentrating on the Chancellor of the Exchequer, I'm concentrating on being Prime Minister and all I would say about him is that I think that as probably one of the most successful post war Chancellors this country's seen he is someone that we can be very proud of, and I think the country is very lucky to have him as Chancellor.
John Humphrys
Did you talk about it to him?
Tony Blair
I'm not going into what I talk and what I don't talk about with people and this is back to the old personality and process rather than...
John Humphrys
Personality's matter in politics, don't they?
Tony Blair
Of course they do John, of course they do, but this is not a discussion that we have, what we discuss is how we try and do the jobs that we've got.
John Humphrys
Well I hope we covered both. Tony Blair, many thanks.
Tony Blair
OK, thanks.
Back to May interviews
Please Note:
This transcript was typed from an on-air broadcast and not copied from an original script. Because of the possibility of mis-hearing and the difficulty, in some cases, of identifying individual speakers, the 91Èȱ¬ cannot vouch for its accuracy.
