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Except for Pietersen and maybe Ian Bell, England's batting line up is not really full of attacking strokemakers like an Australian or Indian batting line up. Andrew Strauss seems to have lost confidence since his debut series 4 years ago and Michael Vaughan only seems to score quickly in perfect batting conditions like he did in the 02/03 of Australia.
Batsmen like Collingwood and Alastair Cook hardly strike fear in the opposition. They need to follow a gameplan, maybe bat Pietersen at 3 and hope he can take the attack to the bowlers and put them on the backfoot

I want to give an honest crititcism of the English Cricket.
Firstly I think Englands traditional cricket does not work anymore, New Zealand has an explosive style game and good team ethic no star players like KP Vaughan. the main thing is that they perform and England cricketers are all talk. As well English players are overpaid and overrated. And recently the speculation about KP to join IPL on really big bucks next season, no one in India wants him.
I think the English media over rates their cricket team and they probably can only competete with teams below 4 or 5 ranking and I think they are far from winning the ashes next year, maybe in 2016.

Anyways these comments might hurt some, but this is what I think is true. I am Indian fan and can say this proudly and I am open to any criticism about the Indian team(cause there isn't any)

As Hoggard has pointed out English batsmen can fail repeatedly knowing that their places are safe so I don't believe that it is fear of being dropped that makes them play with such a lack of adventure. Perhaps it is the lack of match practice in the County game and selection of those players who can combine class and form in the County game instead of the current placeholders might motivate players more. So drop those who are struggling and bring in Ramprakash, Butcher, Sales or Key to get some oomph into the English batting. The class players who are left out could return to the County game, get some runs and confidence and win their places back.

sukaranmehta

What are you on? No-one in the IPL wants to sign KP? The wealthiest teams (who are struggling at the moment) would break the bank to sign him. Yes, he is having a bad patch, but who doesn't. Yes, England are not playing well at the moment, but there is still potential there. And by the way, at least we don't have a spinner who has been banned for slapping a teammate! And Sreesanth isn't a Saint - so there you go - two criticisms of the Indian team.

Just a thought - where are the successors to Tendulkar, Dravid, Laxman etc? The Indian board are addicted to ODIs and in the next 5-10 years, that will mean that your Test match rating will deteriorate. So Indian cricket is perfect??

England's problem is every player is playing for themselves and not for the team. The constant chopping and changing of the top order hasn't helped but i feel the selectors need to make a decision soon. Finally i think our test team has been on a steady decline since we lost Graham Thorpe and Collingwood has come in. Collingwood offers nothing with the ball and i can't remember a single time he has won a test match for us.

i cant wait to c flintoff back cos he adds some much needed aggression to the batting wen hes on form however flintoff alone isnt goin to make a difference we need to stop relyin on pitersen to score quickly we need an explosive openin batsmen e.g trescothick hu could take the game away from the opposition from the start the problem is there isnt many of them about in the current game. i would suggest bringin in spearmon hu if i am correct is know eligible for england either that or get a wicketkeeper like mccullum and move him to the top of the order which would make room for bopara or wright in the team

CovBoy
I like your criticism, what I need to say is what counts is on the field- Bhajji is an idiot and so is sreesanth with their behaviour. But it is the performance that counts.
And to be honest I think you need to watch a bit of IPL to see the replacements for our legends. Did you not see the recent Australia series. There are so many players in India right now that our A team could beat your National team and you know it.

Common be practical man!!
Anyways I think English fans are so passionate and over rate their team that they forget the practical side of things. The county cricket sucks and does not produce any good cricketers, half the team want more foreign players to help them.

Just finally I cant believe Collingwood said before New Zealand tour that they were preparing for Ashes 2.5 yrs ahead of it. HMM may be try and win with NZ first.

England's batting failure is bewildering, I struggle to understand why Bell and Pieterson have not kicked on to become world class batsmen. I can only imagine it is due to mental weaknesses - Bell, a lack of strength of mind and concentration, KP, overconfidence and complacency (maybe also too fond of the celeb lifestyle). Neither is short of natural ability.

I'd hate to see either dropped for a less able batsman, but I'm starting to think it would be justified. Maybe would give KP the kick up the backside he needs - or might alienate him and nudge him towards the IPL (of course they want him sukaranmehta, try not to be so one-eyed)

Welsh resistance is right in his comments, was a bit over board there, but is all good cause it raised a good debate. Cov boy seemed to enjoy it.
Anyways English cricket needs a change of coach and staff, I don't like Mr Flower as your batting coach, bring back Allan Donald and hire a new foreign coach maybe Australian. Even a change of head coach and your CEO/Chairman of ECB who seems to be anti IPL. If English players can get more exposure playing hard cricket not county cricket and not be afraid of Allen Stanford's offer.

As well stop relying so much on Freddie, find more players who are fit and consistent. I hate every time Eng loses the answer is Freddie was missing. Then maybe Eng can win the ashes in 2016(only messin) NO hard feelings guys.

Fatigue, lack of confidence, lack of form - could be any one/all of these. If a player isn't confident and is out of form then negativity sets in. However, there is no place in test cricket for people to regain there best form. Form players from county cricket need to be brought in. The best teams in test cricket are not so fragile but being soft with the players will not work and breeds and namby-pamby cricket culture. Many of the England batsmen do bot have the talent to be able to suddenly reproduce their best form, which they need to provide to be test class, their up and down averages from test to test and series to series indicate that, coupled with the lack of consistently heavy scoring.

The joke of an Indian fan is off his rocker.

Your country is on the rocks, Tendulker, Laxman and Dravid are nearly finnished, Dhoni will never be test standard, you're best spinner seems to want to become an offspinning embodiment of Shoaib Akthar.
You managed to scrape a win against a terrible England side (as you're so eager to point out) and got a thwatting in the ODI series.
Kind of ironic since your board is obsessed with ODI's.
Your Pace bowling is worse than ours, your best prospects are a cry baby and Sharma. You better hope nutcase doesn't do something that gets a long ban, because otherwise your not going to be able to take 20 wickets.

Oh, and your IPL "hard cricket" routine is hillarious. The only reason it's not laughable is because it's packed with Aussies.

I wont even bother commenting on the Flintoff comment, on form he's the best all-rounder in the world, any team would miss him.
Maybe Indian fans should concentrate on there own poor showings of late before they criticse ours, Sachin wont always be there to drag you out of the myre.

As a Dutchman I have been following England since the late eighties and this batting line-up is probably the best I've seen. The top 6 all average above 40 whereas in the nineties England only got Gooch and Thorpe in a whole decade (maybe I forgot 1 or 2) . Except for the last ashes series England did all right lately, let's say from the moment they beat SA away and not many countries were able to beat England on home soil. They probably lack some confidence and form right now and off course you can't compare their line-up with the Indian or Australian batsmen but I really can't see why one of the reason for their below par performance lately must be a so called wait-and-see cricket. Apart from KP (and Bell) they simply don't have world class one day players but they still score around 3 an over which is still way better than the likes of i.e. Athers or Crawley. I think that one of the reasons for this modest 200 performance is the extra pressure of a big 1st innings total by NZ, not to mention that Vettori is simply a world class spinner. If they would have taken it to the NZ bowlers they probably would have scored 150 and everybody would have given them stick for going out playing silly shots.

DION,

I am Indian Fan as well. You must be having a laugh. Indian cricket team beat Australia in Australia. Firstly we have the class of sachin. do you even have anyone,KP is the biggest over rated player england has. To be honest you haven't paid for Setanta Sports to watch the IPL, stop being jealous and enjoy IPL. It is the best cricket around. I would openly ask people if they would watch IPL or Eng Test match. You know the answer.
I cannot wait for England to play in India later this year and get thrashed. Good Luck India.
I think the other Indian fan is right. Ashes 2016 should be englands mission

england looked at the weather forecast for this match and concluded that there wasn't a hope of a result. so they've approached the game without a positive mental attitude - thinking that there was no pressure to really perform - and they didn't.

India got baled out by Sachin in Australia, that being in ODI's. Lets not mention the tests?
KP is over-rated and I've never tried to defend Englands batting line-up, it hasn't fired like it should. Sachin is one of the best batsman of his generation, but he's "getting on" even Bradman couldn't bat until he was 75.
The IPL isn't "the best cricket around" I've watched about 8 matches (Yes, I do have Setanta) it's a lot of players playing for money, with the odd foreigner turning up and showing the hosts up. The Indian test players have had a nightmare anyway, Gambhir is the only one who came out of it with any dignity... even Shane Warne, who's retired, has out-performed the Indian bowlers.
Considering only 4 overseas players are allowed and they make up the bulk of the leading wicket taker/highest run scorer table is a pretty good indicator of the state of Indian cricket.
Of course asking people what they would rather watch, the parade with a slog side show or the long drawn out tactical battle (implimented very badly in this case). They don't have 5 days free to sit and watch. IPL doesn't rely on quality, it's just a condensed ODI.
The SA tour is Englands next aim, after scraping a win against NZ. India and they're fans should concentrate on their own test team, or if they cant manage that at least watch your domestic players getting a pasting from the Aussie second team in the freak show.

The problem with English cricket at the moment is that they are trying to make players into something they are not.

When KP first came into the team he played with a flare that was totally uncharateristic in England. This is what made him so succesful. Now he's trying to adapt his style and the England coaches are trying to turn him into something that he is not.

These players need to embrace what they are good at and accept that they are not all going to play with the flair that KP does, but at the same time that they too can be vital to the team. People with the grit of Collingwood have always existed in the came and are an integral part of the game.

I would not suggest replacing Andy Flower with Alan Danald, by the way, as it would leave England short of a batting coach and with 2 bowling coaches. I do, however agree with the comment about getting an 'Australian in'. Under Troy Cooley we had one of the best , if not the best bowling attacks in the world. Unfortunately for English cricket the ECB do not seem willing to make sacrifices to retain the best backroom staff. For example loosing troy Cooley because they refused to give him a 2 year contract instead of a 1 year one was ludicrous!

I wonder how many batsman have only one ey on test cricket and the onther on the IPL. Even if they dont want to admit it. I feel 20 20 has its place in cricket like rugby sevens. I do not think you can mix the 2.
International rugby would suffer if 7s suddenly became a major money game. Too many established international rugby 15 players would leave the arena.
I do not think 20 20 will last if it is just a slog game. Its like a slice of fruit cake compared to a good meal. Nice but you can have too much of it.
Its time for England players to decide which type of cricket they want to play. I would rather have a commited youngster playing test cricket than an established player always thinking how much money he has lost not playing the IPL. Just my opinion.

I'm not usually one start pointing fingers at individuals as soon as things start going badly, but i am surprised that Moore's role has not been questioned. He has been in charge for well over a year now and as far as i can tell this team has only gone backwards. I don't buy into this 'overrated' argument. Whilst the media have been giulty of over-hyping many england sporting teams in the past, most of this team have shown they can perform at the highest level against the best in the world. Why then are we heading into a test match against an average test team at home, apparently devoid of any sort of confidence particularly in the batting department?

I rate every one of those top 6 batsman extremely highly, so for me you have to ask the question why the coaches aren't getting the best out of them.

All coaches need time, but for me the standard has been slowly dropping ever since he came in.

Vidic4ever

Flintoff for England with the bat had one or two fine Test series but generally is poor with it in Test Cricket, since India away and Ashes 2005. Maybe there were more before but the most recent series where he has fired with the bat was 2006 in India. I suppose Collingwood has teed off in one dayers at a good rate, maybe he should try that in the Test team and KP to get back to his old self.

However, Spearman's batting in One Dayers is very good, 346 runs in 5 Innings I think and his battiong has helped to lead us to victory from tricky positions in 3 or 4 of those games.

sukaranmehta has made a valid point, but his suggestion that Indian Cricket is flawless is quite simply stupid and comes from a person that is quite obviously blinded by his teams heroics

When India win, they receive millions in all forms of inflow, cash or prizes etc. The media also bigs them up as if they've suddenly won a massive war but when they lose they come crashing down (Star News, program called 'Match ka mujrim'

Furthermore, if Mehta has any idea into what overpaid is he should yet again look at his own cricket team, Yuvraj getting paid 100,000 US dollars for hitting 6 6's in 1 over is not overpaid?

Lalit Modi making billions through IPL and not letting ICL thrive is not a flaw in the Indian system?

Regarding England, I think Bell should be dropped, Shah coming in and bring back Prior, Ambrose is distinctly average. England's run rate is abysmal and certainly needs to be re-looked into.

Any comments from Mehta would be welcome

I used to think that the negative batting was dictated by Fletcher (who incidentally I thought did a fantastic job and a defensive batting approach was probably required for the first few years after he took over the reigns). But Moores has been in the role long enough to change the mindset.

This problem has been exacerbated ever since we lost Tresco. Vaughan's knock in the first innings is a case in point. There was a time when he would have shown almost total disregard for this kiwi attack. Instead, he made a distinctly average 30 with a strike rate of about 25. By getting into this mindset we build pressure on ourselves, the batsmen don't get into a rhythm and we hand over the impetus to the bowlers. I am sure this is why we have suffered so many mid-order collapses over the years. The aussies have an attitude that sooner or later you will get a good ball that will have you, so you may as well make as many runs as possible until that ball arrives. I'm sure with a more positive outlook, Vaughan could have turned that grafted 30 into a 60 or 70.

And I don't know what they've done to KP -he seems to be holding back his natural penchance for taking the attack to the opposition. Maybe he feels that he is so heavily relied upon he needs to guard his wicket more carefully. But it was refreshing to see someone take on the bowlers when coming in at 20-3 (when he began at 5 in the test team) and giving the opposition something to think about. Bowlers didn't know how to bowl at him. Now he appears to have had the shackles put on many of his shots.

English teams have always lacked that crucial little bit of arrogance and I suspect this defensive batting approach is symptomatic of a lack of confidence. Remember in the 3rd test of 2005 after the confidence boosting win at Edgebaston earlier in the week when we scored 408 in a day against the aussies at 5 an over? I wish we could see that ruthlessness a bit more frequently when the wicket permits.

Silentdemon:

I agree about Prior - the guy was doing a decent job and is scoring runs for fun at the moment. After giving Geraint Jones 9 lives, Prior deserved a longer run.

However, dropping Bell? In the last 2 years he has arguably been our most consistent batsmen, and behind KP, I would say is our next most talented batsmen. His strokeplay is fantastic. I feel sorry for him having to bat at 5 when he clearly merits the 3 or 4 spot, but we have a captain who picks and chooses what he wants for himself as opposed to what is neccesarily best for the team. You cannot criticise Vaughan for having unfaltering belief in his own ability, but I do feel sometimes more input is required from someone set outside the team as to the team selections / orders - he seems to have a little too much control.

As for Shah, his one knock in India of 80 odd is not enough for me to forget the countless times in an england shirt he gave his wicket away. If the likes of Ramprakash never got a reprieve, he certainly does not deserve one.

mr pop

the fact that flintoff has failed to perform to high standards could b put down to injuries and his lack of form with the bat has been more in one dayers and 20-20's cos he hasnt played many test matches since 2005. however i am not expecting him to come in and hit a 100 every test but he could take the pressure off collingwood and bell as they are under pressure to score quickly. the person hu will benefit the most will b pietersen as all the pressure wont be on him to score at a very high runrate and hit sixes. if u look at most of the strike rates in the england team they are quite low and pietersen is deterioratin is dis a coincidence that it is doin dis at the same time as flintoff is not in the test team or is it that pietersen feels he mus adapt his game to avoid bein critiscised for bein unorthodox watever way u look at it england have to score at a higher rate than 2.5 an over and flintoff is an ideal candidate to help the cause

I share Gooch' concern.

I have made the same comment for the last 3 years re. Kevin P.....the GREAT Pretender!

If he was that good he would be playing for SA. Look at his record over the last two years and ask whether it justifies a place in the team.

I agree with another comment about the England team being over-paid, pampered and able to get away with consistenly delivering NOTHING of value. They have the best of everything and still don't feel they need to deliver a team performance.

Get rid of the dregs and bring in players from the coiunties: if that is the structure to deliver talent then it should be supported by giving non-Kolpak players a chance!!

I agree wholeheartedly with Graham Gooch.

I think our problem is attitude. I go back to Dermot Reeve for the correct attitude, in my opinion. His fantastically successful Warwickshire side of the 1990s was basedon positivism ie. players were given the freedom to bat freely without the fear of criticism if they got out playing an attacking shot.

How often do we hear batsmen slated when they get out playing a sweep, a pull, a cut etc. but not when they dabble at it and get an edge to the keeper. batsmen are afraid to attack in case they are out and then criticised. Do you think Andrew Ross Taylor, Andrew Symonds etc. face this? Do you really believe that any of ur team would have hit five 6s as Ross taylor did in the first innings given the same situation?

Although I love cricket, watching England drift into the same old routine, is a real turn off. I feel there are some drastic changes needed.
I am a big fan of Chris Read, a proper keeper who can bat, and has been trated poorly as we search for our equvilant of Gilchrist, an enigma. Ambrose looks out of his depth at this level.
We are calling out for a quality left hander to bat at 4 or 5. Ever since Graham Thorpe eretired we have missed the ability to bond with the tail and add something a little different in the middle order. We have a batting order from three of right handers, who are all quite similar in type. As for who could step up to the plate..........?
I am an optimist and look forward to welcoming back Freddie to the fold at some point. He has the aura to intimidate the opposition as well as being one of the best exponants of aggressive line and length. He is missed and the re-introduction of Simon Jones who seems to be finding form and fitness again would be a boost.
Not too much to change then, but I did say it was a drastic change needed!!

Personally I think both Collingwood, Bell and Pietersen are all in bad form (just look at Collingwood's foot movemenet or lack of it against Vettori). Regarding Collingwood and Bell I am not too worried at present, form will return and they are both proven performers at this level.

However I am starting to get worried about KP, when he literally exploded onto the scene against the Aussies in 05 and continued his imperious form against Sri Lanka I was among many who thought that, come the end of his carer Pietersen would be remembered, not just as one of England's greteast batsmen but be regarded in the same bracket as a modern day batsman as a Tendulkar or Lara.

But recnetly even though he has been scoring hundreds, and big ones at that, KP has seemed an altogether differnet player. What worries me is that he seems to be turning himself into just another orthodox English batsman.

When was the last time we saw the flamingo shot? When the Sirils tried to tie him down with a heavily weighted offside field and bowling outside off stump Pietersen simply took a step down the pitch and wipped the ball through midwicket.

We rarely see the extraordinary talent that KP posses shine through any more. When he made 226 against WI we only perhaps saw one shot that showed how great a batsman he can be, a cover drive for six from the off spin of Chris Gayle an unbelieveably difficult shot to play off that type of bowler.

The innings he played against Australia at the Oval was among the very best. Taking a hammering in the moring session KP and England were on the ropes, if KP had gone cheaply we were in big trouble. Brett Lee was pellting the ball down at over 95mph and KP was just about hanging in there.

After the Lunch break something changed, Pietersen came out and played certainly the best innings i have ever see.

Brett Lee bowled ferocious bouncer after feroucious bouncer, Pietersen hunkered down as low as he could, Lara esque, and proceeded to hook and pull him into the square leg stands. It was insane, the sheer bravery and genious of it, a legendary battle between bat and ball.

After that particular battle had been won KP had the easy task of dealing with Shane Warne who he proceeded to swat and smash into the Oval stands.

The game safe, The Ashes won.

Weather permitting I hope Pietersen at least tries to do this today. Show us that you still have it, Pietersen the great entertainer.

The headline is accurate but the the analysis of the batsmen is pansyish. You need to hold fewer prisoners, Goochy. Vaughan is elegant but fragile and frail (physically/mentally); Pietersen seems unenthused/uninspired (thinking of India?) for all his talent, Strauss lacks shot-making confidence and timing, though he has looked more solid; Colly's poor basic technique is periodically exposed (here by the Old Trafford pitch), Bell still lacks manliness and Cook is too lbw-prone. So I don't think it is 'under=performance' - conditions are tricky -and the NZ bowling has been decent enough- at Old Trafford and none of them have been good enough so far to overcome.

I would add briefly that if England win, it is because NZ's 2nd Inns batting was something even more woeful than England could rustle up.

I agree with Goochy. There is a need for experience in the line-up. This I believe is only there, the sort of stubborn resistance, in players in the later part of their career. There are undoubtadly one or two players in the present line-up that could do with either a re-think or maybe the axe. In the openers we have two players of the same mould so one could be dispensed with to allow the attack and scraper mix that is more succesful. In addition the placement of a stronger, tougher player in the middle who has all the shots to rebuild an innings along with the attitude and approach will also help. Attach that to the line-up and I believe that would allow Pieterson to play the way he should be. Vaughn stands out now as being a long way ahead of all England Batsman. Great to see an England captain leading by example.

One of the reason England won the Ashes in '05 was there was a good mix of attacking and grafting batsmen.

The pivotol moment was probably Day 1 at Edgbaston when Trescothick, KP and Flintoff helped England to 400, which after the mauling at Lords gave England confidence.

In terms of bringing in an attacking batsmen then James Hildreth of Somerset would not be the worst choice England could make but an attacking top 3 batsmen is a must.