Kosovo with a little fudge on top
This is likely to be the shortest on record. It starts at ten and is due to be over after lunch.
British officials say this is the way to do business: short sharp meetings with a couple of clear conclusions rather than forty pages summing up the last six months.
Diplomats say it is a good symbol of an EU that has agreed its last tinkering with institutions for a while and is getting down to business that matters to people of Europe.
I wonder. While the major topic open for discussion, , is of vital importance, the other main item on the agenda is a classic piece of Euro-waffle with fudge topping.
They're setting up a group to look at challenges to the European Union in 2030.
This started life as an election promise by , who is determined to stop from ever joining the European Union.
He proposed setting up to look explicitly at the limits and borders of the European Union.
This has morphed into a "reflection group" with a brief so wide that it's rather surprising there isn't room for Mr Sarkozy's main idea.
The group won't be allowed to reflect upon current politics, institutional matters, or the EU budget. Their cogitation will be confined to economic success, social cohesion, reaching out to citizens, the rule of law, security, migration, energy, climate change, crime and terrorism.
The closest their brief comes to mentioning the size and shape of the European Union is tasking them to look at the stability and prosperity of "both the Union and the wider region".
I know "Britain wins battle in Europe" is not exactly a brilliant headline but this does look like a Foreign Office victory to me with all the UK concerns highlighted and the original purpose emasculated.
Of course Mr Sarkozy may try to change the wording. A French diplomat told me that the brief doesn't exclude looking at future membership of the EU.
Much may depend on who chairs this committee. A number of names are floating around, including , and .
But the knottiest and most immediate problem before European leaders is Kosovo, which is still officially a part of Serbia.
As far as the biggest EU countries, and America, are concerned, negotiations are over, independence is the only way ahead, and is as good a plan as there is.
But Russia will block anything like that being adopted by the UN on the 19th December. The big players seem confident that the Kosovan Government will wait until after Serbian presidential elections on 3rd February before making the declaration.
The ball really is then in the European Union's court. It is all the more poignant because .
It was the first state to break away from Yugoslavia and the only nation formed from that country that has so far joined the European Union.
But there is no agreement on the biggest question: if and when to recognise the new state.
The biggest EU countries (France, Germany and Britain) are likely to do so quickly. Others, , are worried about the precedent this sets. So much for a united EU foreign policy.
So, over lunch, the leaders will attempt to find ground they can agree on. Ask French, German or British diplomats what they hope to achieve and in each case the answer is "unity".
They hope to persuade the doubters that everything has been done to bring the two sides together and that the talks between Kosovo and Serbia have been exhaustive and have been exhausted.
They want agreement to send a , and detailed talk of personnel and purchasing of hardware is already underway.
But the British, at least, think that when it comes to the crunch this should be part of a package which includes recognition: there's no point sending a team in for the sake of it.
Also on the agenda: and globalisation.
UPDATE ON KOSOVO:
As the ministers troop in the cry is, as predicted, 鈥渦nity!鈥.
But this is the reality. The Romanian Prime Minister says 鈥渢here is a broad interest to sustain a common European position".
"But there is one problem where we have a clear position," he says. "We won鈥檛 recognise an independent Kosovo because of the impact of the stability of the region.鈥
Those who know more about this than me tell me he鈥檚 done a complete U-turn because he can鈥檛 get backing in parliament to recognise Kosovo.
On the editors' blog, the editor of the World Tonight Alistair Burnett, who鈥檚 very knowledgeable about the area expresses his frustration about the silence over this issue from Europe. But it's very complex.
For instance, one of the things that some hope will come out of today's session is an argument to dangle a quicker path to EU membership before Serbia.
But the Dutch are unhappy that means dropping the old tough position on bringing war criminals to justice. .
I鈥檓 Mark Mardell, the 91热爆's North America editor. These are my reflections on American politics, some thoughts on being a Brit living in the USA, and who knows what else? My 
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Hi everyone,
Kosovo is an interesting debate not only for local issue but for further abroad countries such as Iraq, Israel, Greece, Macedonia, Turkey, Spain and Belgium, and not to mention Bosnia.
Which ever way you look at it, it's a loose-loose situation. You give Kosovo independence, you create a country, which will not be able to support itself, and you destabilize the region locally and in addiction you have international consequences. For instance, if Kosovo has the right, then Serbs in Bosnia, French and Dutch nationalists in Belgium, Turkish part of Cyprus and Basque in Spain have the right to form their own country. Lets not forget Iraq's Kurds and where they form 90% of the population in Turkey which borders Iraq, if Kosovo has the right, than one should deem that they have the right aswell.
The other option of not giving Kosovo independence, you avoid the international consequences, and localise the problem to the immediate vicinity which with no doubt in my mind would start another fire fight.
What foreign powers fail to understand is that there is hundreds/thousands of years of history, which is carefully tallied. A hundred years ago, the majority was Serb in Kosovo. But through WW1 and WW2, axis policies in both wars allied with the local Albanian and systematically eradicated Serbs from that area through concentration camps. During WW2 many Serbs fled Kosovo with the hope in returning however with Tito in power, he refused them return and then established an immigration policy which favoured the Albanians to populate the region. In my view Tito set the whole Yugoslavia to fail through his unfair policies especially for Orthodox Christians and continuous rule with no fresh ideas to keep up with the changing times.
And now we speed up to present times, where years of supression have been uncovered. I personally believe, that Serbia and the Serbian people should struggle through legal ways to maintain the territories currently being resided by Serbs in Kosovo, relocate their national treasures to Serbia from Albanian controlled areas, and like in Israel, build a wall around Kosovo suspending all human and economic ties. Further more they should push for the independence of Serb people from Bosnia.
However, there seems to be two set of rules for countries on the "in" and the countries on the "out". And Serbia is on the "out", where Kosovo will gain full independence, the 100 000 Serbs in Kosovo would be pushed out and Serbs in Bosnian would be bullied in not to pursue independence from Bosnia.
Thank you
Kosovo will remain forever part of Serbia in Serbian minds and heart because it is a part of Serbia. Kosovo, ie the second Islamic Albanian state isn't able to defend itself and Europeans do not see why they have to defend a second Albanian Islamic state.
Not to mention that this time Russians have recovered ownership of Russia from the oligarchs and regard the Serbians as their natural allies.
Whatever the EU politicians decide, balkan affairs take place on the ground.
Looking at all the comments on all the websites, I really do wonder why the UK doesn't decide, for once and for all, if they wanna stay in the Union. It makes no sense to me whatsoever that the UK is still inside while the public hates the EU. Just get it done. The EU will shed a tear but amputation is still better than slow death by gangrene.
I cannot believe the world is allowing for a soveriegn state to be carved up against its will. Serbia has demonstrated that it wants a European and democratic future. There are so many situations in the world like Kosovo and the world is adamant that the countries involved must retain territorial integrity. Why then must Serbia be punished allowing a minority who already have a country (Albania) to form a second Albanian country at Serbias expense?
Kosovo deserves its independence and souvereignity. It is the last still-attached piece of Ex-Yugoslavia, a state that doesn't exist anymore, and whose Ex-parts are now all independent. Kosovans never considered nor fealt as being part of Ex-Yugoslavia, even more part of Serbia. They were not slavs and didn't belong there culturally nor linguistically. It has existed as an autonomus "entity" with well-defined borders for hundreds of years, under Ottoman Empire, Albania, Yugoslavia, Austro-Hungaria and now it is time to finally be an independent state, whose ambitions are clearly European and North Atlantic. Any delay in grating independence will only produce another war in the Balkans, whose European citizens will try to "contain" with their tax-euros.
A kosovan independence should not only be used to set a precedent but it should be done because it is the right thing to do. Ethnic Albanians are not Serbs therefore they should have nothing to do to with such a treacherous and oppressive country who prides it self on its oppression against its minorities such as Kosovo and Bosnia and other majority Muslim regions. Kosovo wants to expend it poor economic and shared with the world. Countries like Cyprus and Russia have no say in this since it is not their property being lost and the should focus on recognizing their minorities in order to avoid situations such as this. There is no other reason then self interest of a few countries that Kosovo should not a be independent and be allowed to contribute to the world community at large.
Kosovo: A sad story where the American bully decided to flex his muscles and replace dictator Milosevic by breaking up Yugoslavia, without caring about European realities. They created the unsupported propaganda myth of massacres against Albanians (where are the Kosovo mass graves?) so as to start the war against Yugoslavia. Their success emboldened them to try similar lies in Iraq (WMD?) and now in Iran (nuclear technology). They left behind a mess in SE Europe with very few options. But the Kosovo precedent will be paid in the future by the breakup of many European ethnic federations like Romania, Spain, United Kingdom, Macedonia, and others.
"They want agreement to send a police and military mission to Kosovo, and detailed talk of personnel and purchasing of hardware is already underway."
We've seen a great success of EU police and military mission in BOSNIA!
[particularly in Srebrenica]
BTW. I somehow don't think that war criminals Radovan Karadic and gen. Ratko Mladic have been hidden by Kosovars. Perhaps EU should send a police and military mission to Serbia instead?
So, the EU wants to go ahead and open the gates of hell. I wonder what
the UK will be saying if a part of London with a Pakistani majority decides they want independence.
Or if Argentines start emigrating to the Falklands and many years later they claim independence.
Cyprus's voice is the only voice of sanity, especially given that some EU countries, like the UK and officials like Solana are openly hostile to it: While pushing for harsh punishments against people who
download mp3s, they have no problem with Turkey's occupation+colonization of Cyprus(the product of armed robbery with murder). The EU wants a European army who would go in far away places like Afghanistan and Sudan and would not be allowed to defend EU soil, such as occupied Northern Cyprus.
I'd rather break unity than have
EU work against a member state.
EU officials are our employees, not masters and they need to respect
the concerns of ALL europeans.
Mark,
please explain how this secession by an ethnic minority who have become a local majority is to be done legally ?
The same basis that the "few" big countries suggest a EUMIK operation i.e UN SC resolution 1244 "re-affirms" (note "re") Serbia's sovereignity. Thus surely they need Serbian consent to change the UN's authority to EU run?
Beyond that the US, UK and France clearly saw fit that Serbia retained its authority in 1999 so what has changed since other then Serbia handing over Milosevic and a Democratic & pro-EU government taking control. Please explain why Serbia is being told by the EU "few" that despite doing all it was asked it must now lose nearly 15% of its sovereign territory if it wishes to be part of the EU!
Was the EU project not founded on reconcilation and bringing people closer not sepratism and creation of mon-ethnic entities that have no historical nor economic reasoning for being?
Please clarify the Legal perspective since it seems the usual "legalist" EU is clearly running scared of this aspect and no-one wishes to mention it. I wonder why?
It is worth noting that Kosovo is not simply a bolted on piece of ex-Yugoslavia, It has always been a part of Serbia and many argue, is the cradle of Serbian culture.
Can we now expect these governments to back independence of other separatist states, like a Basque nation to name but one of many?
The reasons for backing Kosovos independence may be valid, but no more valid than many other regions looking for autonomy.
Princip UK's questions are all based on a very selective reading of international law. They are based on the same logic as that of Slobodan Milosevic in the 1990s when he tried to justify the genocide of Kosova Albanians by Serbian troops. Milosevic said at the time that Kosova was an internal problem and any outside intervention violated Serbia's sovereignty and international law. NATO and the international community replied that sovereignty did not give him the right to try to exterminate a whole population because of its ethnicity. The present Serbian government's position over Kosova has not moved much further since.
Milosevic also tried to give the late Robin Cooke a Serbian history lecture on his country's right to Kosova claiming Serbian heritage over the province since the Middle Ages. Cooke replied that if he followed the same logic, the UK would have to claim half of France. The time is gone for this kind of logic.
Princip UK knows very well that changing the UN resolution 1244 is opposed by Russia which has veto power in the Security Council. The future of Kosova Albanians should not be left to the foreign policy whims of Russia.
the eu distatorship is coming slowly but surely....dont vote labour
The EU can't force people to live together peacefully. Serbia had its chance.
If the people of Northern Ireland clearly expressed their desire to secede, the UK would not be able to stop them.
Comparisons with recent immigrant ethnic groups in samll urban communities are facile and beside the point (#7).
In response to Lukas' post (currently showing as #3), whilst I don't dispute that this country really does need to get its act in gear as to whether it wants to be part of the EU or not - please DON'T think that all of the xenophobic garbage that you see on the HYS boards on this site and indeed in much of the press represents the views of ALL people in this country.
Some of us actually CAN see the bigger picture and can see further afield than the Channel.
But what exactly is wrong with Sarkozy's aspiration to keep Turkey out of the EU ?
I thought the EU had "agreed its last tinkering with institutions for a while" ?
So shouldn't we be supporting Sarko in preventing yet more expansion, which would result in yet more need to have a revived constitution with yet more abolition of national vetoes and a rise in Qualified Majority Voting ?
Ah, of course, I remember now - as soon as you feed the EU monster's desire for power, it just becomes an hors d'oeuvre for yet more hoovering up of national sovereignty. Enough !!
I have lived in Kosovo for 4 years and I have to give a few facts to help make the picture a little clearer.
1. Albanians belong to 3 religions: muslim, catholic, orthodox christians, but I must add that they are probably the least religious people that I have ever known. That's the reason why they have even changed religions back and forth, left and right. Religion seems to be of a secondary importance to them, after nationality, being Albanian and The Flag. By the way, those religious sites that Serbians claim to belong to them, belong to Albanian orthodox christians as well, even though, strangely enough, this very important fact never gets to the "news". Also, many of those orthodox churches are built on top of old Dardanian (Old name of Kosovo) Temples that belong to Albanians that have lived there since The Beginning of Times.
2. According to the polls of the last 15 years, Albanians are the most pro-European and pro-American nation on Earth. You can check for yourself.
3. Serbia is the last Sudanese-minded state in Europe, including ex-soviet republics. It is still a land ruled by communists and communist minds. Dictatorship and the rule of violence are worshiped to their fullest. If Nazis were still in power, they would had surely been suprised to see that someone had actually "done more". Serbia is still a place where if you don't lie, you don't survive. It is a patern of existence that has kept their "dreams" of Greater Serbia alive and the neighboring nations in pain. Someone should make it clear to them that "lying will not get you far in EU". While the civilised world waits for Serbia to westernize itself, it cannot allow 2 million other Europeans (Albanians) to be kept hostage at the same time.
Kosovo independence will be a little message of truth to Sudanese-Serbia and all alike-states wherever they exist. Serbia has never played on EU rules. It is time for them to learn to do so.
It is clear that Kosovo cannot return to pre' 98 era. Kosovars have fought for this day. For some fairytales of 1389 their future cannot be hold hostage. Kosovars are europeans with same rights as any other in this continent. they are majority and always been. they did not deport any serbs ever. The borders have always been fluctuant, they were not sealed in the Bible. Hoping 2008 will end this topic.
Why should the future of Kosovo be left to the whims of the foreign policy of UK, France or the USA and not to the whims of Russia's foreign policy?
What gives the UK moral superiority over other countries?
Why should not the EU give independence to Catalans who suffered the same treatment under Franco as did the Albanians under Milosevis?
Why should a country who created and embodied fascism be considered more democratic (and be the part of the EU) than the one that allied with UK, France and the USA to stop it?
Questions go on and on...
Mospyt Cot gives a very strange reasoning:
-"Genocide" is unsubstantiated
Serbs could also use the same term when referring to the NATO bombing(including repeated "collateral damage" to civilians). If Milosevic's plan indeed was genocide, then why was it not carried out?T he KLA and Yugoslav operations/
attrocities were happening a long time before the NATO bombing, so that was certainely not what stopped him
-Second, the current Serbian government accepts autonomy-I don't see how this can be the same policy as genocide
-Milosevic had his own logic, and so did Izbegovic, Tutzman, Rugova and Thatchi. It's hard to see how
this relates to the current situation at all.
-Last, the issue remains: What gives Kossovo Albanians more rights to independence than say pakistanis in London or the Kurds in Turkey, whose fate can be justly left to the hands of a country which has managed to ethnically cleanse itself, while complaining about its ethnic minorities elsewhere?
Ladies & Gentleman
Before you make a judgement on kosovo
Please go and read your history properly
Kosovo has always been populated by albanians all credible historical sourses prove that.the ones that don't are just Serbian propaganda.
Albanians as a nation have had a very unfortunate history being occupied by varies powers throughout history.
it is really almost incredible that an albanian nation still exists after the discriminations,the asimilations and mass murering it has faced throughout history.
Let me tell you this bit of history you probably don't like.
Today there is more than 5 million people of Albanian origin living in turkey and 2 million people of albanian origin in calabria italy and probably another 5 million albanians spread around the world only and im not talking about the recent migrations.
The single reason for this is Serbs, Montenegrian,Macedonian & Greeks forcing albanians to live their land and thouse are the one that survived just imagin how many got killed.
Im from Shkodra a town in north of Albania and our history is filled with stories of the murder and the rapes that the serbs commited to us.
there is many tails of how the serbs used to stabb thousands of pregnant women to kill their children..
How would you feel if that was done to your own people,and how would you fill if it was the opposite.
we just want to be free and live in peace with everyone else.i don't think we are asking for much
Mospyt Kot wrote: "The future of Kosova Albanians should not be left to the foreign policy whims of Russia."
I agree. Nor should the future of Serbia be left to the foreign policy whims of USA.
Apparently the Prime Minister of Romania has been convinced that Romania should not recognize Kosovo as an independent state because of the possibility that the ethnic Hungarians in Romania might use this as precedent to ask for their own independence.
If you ask me this position is false because the value of Kosovo as a precedent would only exist if Romanians had tried to ethnic cleanse the areas inhabited by the Humgarian minority and if armed action on the part of NATO would have forced Romania to stop. As such things never happened Kosovo carries to weigh as a precedent for the Hungarian minority in Romania, in my view.
To Mirek:
The EU had no forces in Srebrenica, you are probably referring to the Dutch battalion under UN command.
Now the EU has a military mission in BiH, it's called EUFOR and is doing a great job on the ground.
You wrote
"The biggest EU countries (France, Germany and Britain) are likely to do so quickly. Others, particularly Cyprus, are worried about the precedent this sets. So much for a united EU foreign policy."
You miss the point that an EU foreign to have one (i.e.everyone has a 'veto'). That's its strength (viewed from the UK, France etc) and its weakness (viewed from Belgium, Luxembourg etc).
However nobody ever was looking for a united foreign policy hence your derogatory use of the phrase "So much for" is somewhat misplaced.
Maybe another commentator could say "so much for Mark Mardell's knowledge of the EU's main policies" ;-)
It wasn't until I lived with Serbs in London that I actually heard the Serbian side of the story. British media, especially the 91热爆 have been almost entirely biased towards Albanian and anglo-american interests and showed absolutely no other side to the story. This was the first time that I realised how much propaganda we are fed in the UK, especially during war.
I don't understand why Kosovo needs to have independence when its perfectly fine as an autonomy. Just look at our example, South Tyrol in Italy, where 70% are ethnically Austrian and speak German . We probably are one of the best protected minorities the world has seen and I remember delegations from Kosovo coming and learning about it. Well, they obviously don't care much about personal freedom but rather about kicking Serbia in the teeth. In fact, if you(Mark) care to visit our autonomy in early January, let me know and I can show you around our legislatures etc. as I'll be at home. (Although our summer is probably more enjoyable to a Brit)
It really should be simple. Self-determination should not be organised by the artificial boundaries created by the oppressors. Since Yugoslavia as an entity (just like the so-called Soviet Union) was no more than a vehicle for Serbian imperialism, and additionally since the 'Yugoslav' government resolved to attempt genocide against the Kosovar Albanians, the Serbs lose any right to determine the future of the Kosovars.
Kosovo may well have once been the cradle of the Serb nation and the scene of the 1389 defeat to the Ottomans, but for some centuries the Serbs have ceased to reflect the majority. Depending on this argument is like asserting that Jutland and Niedersachsen must be English since these are the areas of origin of the Anglo-Sxons.
If the majority of the people of Kosovo want independence, they should have it. Kosovo may be a part of Serbia at the moment but if Serbia wants to be a part of the European Union they're going to have to accept that democracy comes first. You can't and should not force people to be a part of your country. Russia also has no business trying to shout down the Kosovan people.
I notice Mark has mentioned President Sarkozy's position on Turkey. I have to say I agree with Sarkozy and cannot understand why politicians in my own country (Britain) are so enthusiastic about Turkey joining the European Union.
Maybe if British politicians delved more into why France is against Turkish membership they would be in agreement.
The biggest issue I have with Turkish membership is with regards to Turkey's refusal to recognise the Armenian Genocide - a horrific event that may have happened a century ago but has yet to be acknowledged by Turkey. It is the equivalent of the German government denying the holocaust.
It is, quite rightly, regarded as obscene to deny the holocaust. The same should be the case for the Armenian Genocide.
I am also digusted that Britain refuses to acknowledge this. I just hope that Gordon Brown's moral compass will rectify this at some point.
Should Kosovo be given independence ,Serbs in Bosnia should immediately declare independence as well.Americans and some Europeans rushing to illegaly recognize Kosovo will no doubt recognize this state too.People who constantly mention Serb genocide in Kosovo,please explain ,where are the mass graves ?And how come there are 90% Albanians there despite this Serb "genocide".Kosovo idependence will be the biggest injustice in international affairs for long time,really till Turkish occupation of soverein EU state Cyprus is rewarded with creation of another Turkish state or till we have yet another Albanian speaking muslim country ,this time out of ruins of Macedonia.
Mospyt Kot, the problem with Robin Cook's argument is that there are many sites of importance to Serbian heritage in Kosovo. The same cannot be said of there being similar sites of importance to the British in France. Also there was no genocide in Kosovo by Serbian troops. They were there to fight the KLA.
If the UK and US want to change 1244 then they only have themselves to blame for agreeing to it in the first place.
Perhaps Serbia's territorial integrity is not being treated like other countries with minority populations because most of those countries have not supported genocide against those minority populations. For the same reason, I hope Iraq's Kurdish population have the opportunity to secede.
If someone wants to search very deep in history it will find out that the ethnic albanians have populated Balkans much earlier than serbs, about the same time as ancient greeks. This fairytale of 1380 as craddle of serbia does not hold.
Move on people!
The issue here is that most of the people do not understand the history behind the conflict in Kosovo. I have read comments here calling the new Kosovo state a 鈥渟econd Islamic Albanian鈥 state in the region. The substance in those comments itself speaks of all the hatred that the Serbian/Slavic orthodox fanatics and fundamentalists have been brewing for centuries. Kosovo is pledging to become a modern country, with a young vibrant population that leads a very modern lifestyle. I say give Kosovo its鈥 well deserved independence, stop the hate stemming from Serbian-Slavic-orthodox fundamentalists, and read the evidence, the true history that is free of slavic propaganda, regarding the reasons of why Kosovo deserves to be free of Serbia. Those comparisons with cities having a majority of one population and therefore their resulting claim to become independent do absolutely not stand at all. In fact, claiming that Kosovo should remain a part of Serbia, is the same thing as claiming that all of Europe鈥檚 colonies should never gain their freedom.
Everybody in this blog who is "crying " for serbia is from one of those nations with internal problems, they are affraid of separatist actions within.
That doesnt mean that the same thing will happen in those countries. Try to be decent and honest.
The borders between nations are not sealed in the Bible, historically they have been fluctuant. Kosovans are as much europeans as serbs or greeks or cypriots
To Tel Tetel,
The mass graves of Kosovars are still being found in cities of central serbia (Batajnica region), trucks full of bodies of massacred Albanian civilians are being found in the rivers of Serbia. It's a shame to support the aggressor first, but more importantly, it's a shame to deny that a crime so despicable happened in the first place. In addition, all this being done by a people claiming to be "civilized European citizens." What a hypocrisy! Kosovo independence should be recognized, that is the least we can do for a people that suffered so much in the hands of the butchers of the Balkans - the Serbs.
Kosovo deserves independence, there is no question about it. Serbia, as when it started ethnic clenching in Kosovo, lost at that moment all rights to the province it had. As Serbia to this day has not punished its war criminals and started to clean its rampant nationalism or even give a public apology for the war crimes its leaders and forces committed, the case for independent Kosovo has only got stronger.
As a national of a small nation, Finland, I can relate to Kosovo Albanians and their struggle for independence. Finland was also once a part of Sweden and Russia, and it was ruled by foreigner and culture was very much threatened in many occasions. For nation that has been discriminated, the only answer for the security of the nation is independence.
I also believe that after Kosovo has got its independence, it will fare well. I believe this because at now for both Kosovans and foreign investors, its risky to invest in a country witch doesn't have any clear status. Also as Kosovo becomes independent I believe that people there will start working harder as then they will be building their own country, not doing work for a foreign occupier.
It should also be noted that its stupid nationalism to talk years after years about areas that were hundreds and thousands of years ago part of some country. We in Finland have learned to cope with the reality and work with it and not focus to past. For us, even if its a pity that Finland lost Karelia at the WWII, it's a thing that can't be changed. Karelia is now part of Russia and Russians populate it now. There would be no idea to turn that area back to Finland, as it wouldn't serve the current population, and driving them out of it would be just as wrong as it was for Finland to loss it. Let the history be what it's and concentrate on future, that's the only way a nation can fare in this world.
Good luck for all Kosovans and hope the independence comes as soon as possible!
First of all, show me evidence of genocide in Kosovo! Show me mass graves. Secondly, Kosovo was never a republic in Jugoslavia, but it was a province, a Serbian province after the break-up. Kosovo was never a sovereign nation. The ethnic cleansing policy that albanians have been exercizing against Serbs for centuries should not be rewarded. Kosovo is and always was a part of Serbia.
*sigh* I wanted to start on an optimistic note and as a citizen of Serbia say that Serbia should recognize an independent Kosovo because it is the best viable solution for both 'sides'. And there should basically be no sides. We are all people living on the planet Earth. We are all the same on the inside, some better some worse as people, but there is no ethnicity on the inside, we all have feelings, dreams, aspirations, fears...
Serbia has no funds to help Kosovo develop, and we all here know in what economic state Kosovo is. It is enough to visit the south of Serbia proper and see how impoverished and underdevelopped it is, and that fact alone tells us why Albanians want to go their own way. All the money goes to Belgrade and very little is invested in any other region of Serbia, so it is no wonder that people living in other areas feel used and neglected.
The other point, often put under the carpet in international media, is that Kosovo is rife with drug smuggling, people traficking, and crime in general, run, it is fair to say, by Kosovo Albanians. Serbia has no mechanism to solve that either, so is it not better to leave it to the EU to resolve it, since they seem keen on it? Why does Serbia, a troubled country as it is, want one more problem on its back? Thirdly, the majority of Kosovo population, whatever ethnicity they may be, want to govern their affairs differently. They are people who want to live according to their vision, so denying that equals oppression. And what does it matter to us here how they want to live? Because there are some historical monuments there? We should stop living in the past, start looking towards the future, and, if it is in our hands to make someone happy, and we being no worse for it, quite the opposite, why shouldn't we do it?
However, these vitriolic comments from the Albanian 'side', and fixation on history and grand injustice on the Serbian 'side', simply put me off. Really sad.
And one more point. The international media are indeed being unfair by so obviously not covering stories which put Kosovo Albanians in unfavourable light. Such as, for example, reports on the activities of ANA, officially on the list of terrorist organizations, patrolling Kosovo?
We should also not forget that Albanian guerilla army started the conflict in Kosovo in 1998. I do not approve of the response, but had any other army and police been attacked by a guerilla army, in any other country, would they not have responded? Sure they would, and would label them as terrorists. Sounds familiar? These days, however, the story in the media is 'bombing...to prevent a violent crackdown on ethnic Albanians', without any mention of the aforementioned guerilla army. In the scope of that it is worth to mention that Albanians then wanted broad authonomy, the one they had under the constitution of 1974, and there was no mention of independence, at least not openly. Milosevic was ousted from power, those who opposed him came into power, and Abanians still talk of same old Serbia, as if Milosevic and his cronies were still in power. Those who are in power now did not order any crimes committed against Albanians. Why wouldn't the Albanian side show some good will?
Lastly, Albanians were told that if the negotiations failed independence would be the only way. Not much motivation for successful negotiations, right? Agree on how to share a cake with person B, otherwise you'll have the whole cake. Why would I bother then? Not fair on the part of the international community, I'd say.
However, all these points which can be classified as unfair should not concern Serbia because an independent Kosovo is the best solution for Serbia. Anything else would bog the country into more trouble. Hostile population, crime, poverty, etc. So, as a citizen of Serbia, I fully support independence for Kosovo, and peaceful coexistence for everyone, and friendly relations some day, hoping that lyrics of John Lenon's song 'Imagine' will one day become reality.
All the best to the people of Kosovo, whichever ethnicity they may be.
I hope Canada will not support Kossovar statehood. If Kossovo can be broken out of Yugoslavia so can Quebec out of Canada. And there are at least 7 other incidences and potetialities for simular break aways around the Planet. Kossovars should live inside a state of Serbia. A state which used to be Yugoslavia and was dis-assebled by Germany, France and UK ofcourse not without USA's and Canada's help by side-steping UN. This was the same state that the allies France, Britain and USA patched together post 1919. The state of Southern Slavs (Yugo-Slavia)but which had a sizeable minority of Hungarians, Italians and Albanians.
You don't see the Bacska Hungarians demanding independence from Serbia. You don't see the Istrian Italians demanding independence from Croatia and Slovenia. So why should the Albanians get it. They are free to move to Albania or any other EU state for that matter.
Furthermore, there never was a genocide in Kossovo nor was there an intention. There were no mass graves of 100's of thousands as Blair and Clinton was claiming. Lies, lies, lies.
But the greatest culpability here falls on the Russians who under Yeltsin, Gaidar and Kosirev were too busy kissing the NATO behinds. Because Russia of today would not have allowed the break up of Yugoslavia and the Bulgarians today would not have dared to prevent Russian overflights over their territory. But this was 1990's. Bad decade for the Serbians. Russia was off balance and the West took advantage of it.
By bending the laws to suit their need the Europeans will have oppened a bushell of Kossovos. The first in line will be Republika Srbska of Bosnia.
What is taken by force will eventually go back to rightful owners.
Kosova was occupied by Serbia in the 1912/13 timeframe. It is time for it to go back to its rightful owners - its residents.
Slovenia knows who are they dealing with 鈥 they dealt with Serbia when Milosevic tried to take control of the whole Yugoslav federation by illegaly revoking Kosova鈥檚 and Vojvodina鈥檚 autonomies (Kosova and Vojvodina were equal members of the Yugoslav Federation with the right to veto any laws they did not like) and having 3 votes in the 8 member federation. Revocation of autonomies of these regions allowed Serbia to choose representatives of Kosova and Vojvodina in the Federal Government, therefore control the voting process.
Since Montenegro and Macedonia always voted along Serb lines, Slovenia held a referendum for independence and was followed by Croatia. It was not Slovenia that started the disintegration of Yugoslavia 鈥 this perception has been launched by Serb propagandists for the last 10 years 鈥 it is a distortion of truth.
Mospyt,
UN Security Council resolution 1244 formulated, signed and agreed by the US, UK and France as well as the rest of the UN SC members on the 10th June 1999 - following the illegal NATO bombardment because a spin that it was a "humanitarian" war. The UN SC Resolution "re-affirmed" Serbia's sovereignity and was formulated to bring a close to the violence!
If the US,UK and France felt that Serbia under then Milosevic did not warrant re-affirming sovereignity over its province then surely why did they agree to it?
This has nothing to do with Russia but all to do with why the US, UK and France now see fit to force a partition of the UN recognised, Sovereign, European and democratic Republic of Serbia. Why are they promoting such a flagrant act against all international norms & laws?
To actually recognise an illegal secession while the UN SC resolution is enact goes way beyond a mere bypassing of the UN - it totally attacks the very credibility and foundations of all UN resolutions - they will mean nothing when not even permanent members (i.e. the Guardians of Internatinal law) act against what they are obligated to uphold!
Clearly it is better to continue with real and meaningful negotiations till a compromise is indeed found. Those (US and a "few" big EU) who suggest Diplomacy can't and won't work are the ones who say that such a flagrant act against the UN will bring stability - ironic! They should heed the words of Churchill's;
"To jaw-jaw is always better than to war-war"
Mospyt Kot wrote:
"Milosevic also tried to give the late Robin Cooke a Serbian history lecture on his country's right to Kosova claiming Serbian heritage over the province since the Middle Ages. Cooke replied that if he followed the same logic, the UK would have to claim half of France."
Purely from logical point of view, the two situations are totally different: English Crown has lost its French territories in the 100-years War, and thus did not control France SINCE the middle ages.
To me, the Kosovar situation comes pretty close to Basque, Kurdish, and similar situations, and nobody is talking about these guys separating. But, this has been mentioned elsewhere already.
What really puzzles me, truly, is this: how can it be that secession and separation on one side, can go together with the ideal of joining the EU on the other?
Again, purely logically, this does not make sense. When these guys are all in EU, they will have to be able to co-exist peacefully in one big happy family, and NOT in their respective small corners.
Why can't they all work together on one common goal: joining the EU?
More broadly, why cannot people find a way to co-exist?
Hi!
Kosovo will be Independence i am telling this to Serbia. Mr. Tadic don't try to start the war let all Kosovan to be free forever take your hand off my country don't try to follow Milosevic.
Thank you miri from London
The ethnic picture of Kosovo and Serbia were changed drastically,mainly by ethnic cleansing. Firstly all Ottoman Turks were cleansed from the region, then Hungarians, Germans, Slovaks, Croatians, and Check. That is why Vojvodina (north of Serbia) is now majority Serb and it was never so in its entire history. When speaking of Serbia we generally have to understand that Serbia wants for Kosovo same thing it does not want for Vojvodina.The north of Serbia (Vojvodina) became part of Serbia only in 1918, and was since colonized and ethnically cleansed to become majority Serb territory.On the other hand, Kosovo was Serbia in the middle ages but as a result of Ottoman wars and recent wars, Serbs were ethnically cleansed, now it is populated mainly with non-serb, Kosovar population. So the question for Serbia is: what gives? Give back Vojvodina or keep Kosovo?
One thing i cant understand is why are serbian people so unfairly being treated by all westeren countries with usa on top. This might be suprice to many of u readers but bosnia has over 1 and a half milion population of serbs and they live in area where they are vast majority 90%. so why serbs in bosnia werent allowed to have their independece when albanians in kosovo are openly suported by usa, uk etc to have theirs.. The only reason why serbs in bosnia and kosovo become minority is because in 2 ww they fought against occupiers without surrender, while albanians and bosnian muslims used this and killed milions of serbs so they can become majority. Its not suprice that USA supports independence of kosovo since they have always had some unknown issue with serbs, but i really cant understand why major UE countries also support this move, especially since its in their backyeard and something like that can cause more wars. Read>bosnian serbs will surely feel as being unfearly treated also wanting thieir independence, not to mention other countries with similar problems.
There was very little (which I saw) on the 91热爆 last week on the Greek public services strike against reductions in pensions and social benefits. Since there was a 100% turn out and major demonstrations in many cities, I thought it would generate more coverage. Tomorrow in Budapest, Hungarian Trade Unions and others are organising a massive demonstration against similar cuts and privatisations of public services. There was quite a bit of coverage of similar recent actions in France, but not much in depth analysis of why they were taking place. These events tie in with the liberalisation agenda of the EU and the 'constitution' treaty debate, but receive little coverage.
Kosovo was never part of Serbia,no matter how many times they say it,it was pushed into the artificial country called Yugoslavia and we all know the result of it.So why deny a 90% of Kosovans the wish to be done with that and be independent.If you look at the history of Serbia they never had Kosovo,it was used as a strategical ground not just by the Serbs but all Balkans nations to fight the Ottomans and everybody lost there,not just Serbs,but Albanians as well as Hungarians and many other nations.So instead of looking back to the history they(Serbs) should look to the future and think how to get out of the situation that all those wars that they instigated have brought them to.
Serbia suffered from islamic terror (Ottoman empire), then Nazi terror (Hitler's ally the proto-fascist Pavelic regime in Croatia and after that communist oppression.
And after Tito's death people like Izetbegovic and the KLA waged islamic terror against their opponents.
And the Serbs are seen as agressors? Excuse me?
Kosovo must remain with Serbia no one has the right to cut up other countries.
I've always believed that the EU would collapse under the weight of it's own contradictions, but I never thought I'd see it commit political suicide by promoting the establishment of a 'Greater Albania' in the Balkans.
The notion of an independent Kosovo is ridiculous. This tiny 'state-let' - incapable of supporting itself (see post #1) will soon be agitating for union with Albania (the word 'anschluss' comes to mind). The resulting conflicts (for there will be conflict) will act as a magnet for all those Jehadis who must be bored by now of living in peaceful Bosnia, and others from around the muslim world.
The events of Kosovo 2008 might end up being similar to Sarajevo 1914. Will we ever learn?
For me the full independence of Kosovo is the warning send world-wide to the political and military leaders that the extensive human rights violations, ethnic cleansing and other crimes against humanity (e.g., economic blockade) committed against week, unprotected and non-armed civilians belonging to minorities or different ethnic groups will not be tolerated. In any case, the political decisions based on the high moral and humanistic values should be superior to any historical or, especially, religious considerations.
well just like croatia slovenia bosnia montenegro kosovo used to be a part of former yugoslavia, but time has passed too many wars too many genocides and now it doesn't want to be a part of it beacuse the so called serbia now never did anything to help that part of the country other than taking the autonomy away and giving no rights what so ever to the people and serbia calls himself a democratic country???? serbia was the cause of so many wars and killings and is still not punished...its about time somebody is thinking clear......and forget about joining the EU.....a criminal is always a criminal,a killer is always a killer, EU doesn't want crminals, I hope not.Serbia should be happy with what they have left and educate themself more, killing the innocencent is not the answer.
Fines then, let鈥檚 not limit this to tiny and irrelevant Kosovo but rather redraw the maps across Europe and beyond according to this principle which I can agree with if the principle is applied to all nations.
Let us start with the poor Balkans. There is no need for a yet another manufactured nation where one never existed so give the portion of Kosovo which is Islamic Albanian to Islamic Albania and the Serb Christian Minority part to Serbia. Let us now rid ourselves of the other invented nations. Albania gets the Islamic Albanian part of Montenegro and Serbia gets the Slavic Christian Serb populated part of that country. Albania also gets the Islamic Albanian part of Macedonia along with the Islamic Albanian part of northern Greece. The other half of Macedonia goes to Serbia and Bulgaria. The Slavic 鈥淢acedonian鈥 population is Bulgarian anyway so Bulgaria gets that part and Serbia gets a small section with a majority Serb population. Serbia gets the Christian Serb part of Bosnia (about half of the country) Croatia gets the Croatian populated part of Bosnia and Turkey can reconstitute its control over the Islamic people (which call themselves Bosnians) they left behind after the Ottoman empire withdrew from Europe. Serbia gets back the parts of Croatia that were majority Serbs (pre-Croat ethnic cleansing) and there you have it. But that鈥檚 the easy part.
We go to the former Soviet Union now. Russia gets back all parts with ethnic Russian populations in; Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Ukraine (the majority of the eastern half of the country), all of Belarus (which is basically a Russian province anyhow), eastern Poland, all of Moldova, most of Georgia, half of Azerbaijan, part of Kazakhstan, half the artic (including the north pole) and wherever else the Russians in their mind feel may belong to them. Now Europe and beyond---Spain becomes two countries. France gets half of Belgium as there is no need for and extra country. Greece gets the continental Europe part of Turkey as the Turks don鈥檛 belong there anyway (this part belongs in the Balkan part of this writing). The Kurds get northern Iraq and the eastern part of Turkey and the Palestinians get a country according to pre-1968 borders. Britain gets out of Ireland altogether, Scotland and Wales are free people and no long have to sing God Save the queen.
I am sure there are other examples but this is a start and I believe that the US, French, German and English initiative should be extended around the globe. This is an important precedent and may George Bush鈥檚 faith guide them to glory and stability like that which was achieved in Iraq.
alex
The Kosovo War began because an American President needed to delay an impeachment charge for sexual misconduct. So he bombed a country he'd previously been unable to find on a map, whose policies he had been entirely happy with for the three previous years when they hadn't changed. Now Europe is being blackmailed into ratifying "independence" for an area that clearly is NOT independent, and has no hope of political or economic independence... without colossal and never-ending economic underpinning from Brussels, that is. Most "Kosovars" are illegal Albanian immigrants anyhow - they were in Yugoslavia because they'd fled from Hoxha's Albania, a regime that no longer exists. If they want an Albanian homeland, then there is one - it's called "Albania". It's utter hypocrisy of Sarko and his pro-yankee pals to smash the Basque demands for independence, but accede to terrorist threats by the KLA and give them their own country?
Mark Mardell won't publish this.
鈥淓U 'REFLECTION GROUP' COMMITTEE SHOULD HAVE TO MEANINGFULLY 'CONSULT' WITH MEMBER NATIONS' CITIZENS!!鈥
The 鈥榝uture EU鈥, IE:
- the scope & powers of its internal structures;
- the independence of its member nations; &
- its role-in-the-world,
... are far more complex & profoundly more important issues than ought to be allowed to be determined by a closed-membership, arbitrarily-appointed body such as the recently approved 'reflection group' committee.
The severe likelihood of the committee鈥檚 findings & recommendations being skewed &- as usual- not reflective of EU member nations' citizens' opinions, could be minimized by the committee- as part of its mandate- having to obtain member nations鈥 citizens鈥 views and preferences.
Towards thse objectives, basic democratic principles (not to mention legitimate-process) warrant the committee interfacing with ALL member nations' governments and working with them in their facilitating non-binding, 鈥榤ulti-question, 鈥楨U-issues plebiscites to their respective citizenry.
Such a plebiscite process would need to mandate the beforehand dissemination of succinct, easy to understand 鈥榓lternative future EU models鈥.
This being facilitated by member nations' govts, and through them, political-parties and interest-groups.
The plebiscite itself could & ought to ask- specifically- for opinions on the future powers, roles & limitations of existing and possible new, basic-EU-structures such as its Parliament, Commission, Council of Ministers, Court of Justice, etc.
Alternative future EU models could, & arguably ought to, include:
1) an EU without its own Parliament- or at least WITHOUT AN ELECTED ONE.
This could be easily accomplished by reverting the present EU Parliament back to its 1960鈥檚-type structure in which MP鈥檚 were appointed by EU member nations.
Under this model- to preserve the principle of EU member nation equality- all member nations could be allocated equal numbers of MP鈥檚, perhaps 7 or 8 or less.
This would shrink the absurdly large present EU Parliament- nearly 1000 MP鈥檚- down to a size which would allow legitimate discourse and debate.
It would also force the EU Parliament- & its committees- to become sizes which would be discernible & understandable to 鈥榯he average EU member nation citizen鈥.
2) an EU in which member nations鈥 are guaranteed- in an explicitly delineated treaty- their integrity & basic nation-state decision making apparatus, & not to be penalized for opting out of things such as the Euro, foreign policy positions, using vetoes, etc.
After over 1/2 a century of development, isn鈥檛 it about time that the citizenry of EU member nations were asked- openly, broadly and comprehensively for 鈥榯heir opinions鈥 regarding re potential future EU models, IE its structures, their powers & limitations & the EU鈥檚 role(s) in the world???
The world as a whole needs an EU of 鈥榠ndependent鈥, but willingly-aligned-for-good-purposes nations, but not an ego-motivated 鈥楽uper-State鈥, in which many of the EU鈥檚 member nations are effectively rendered to fodder for the international ego-driven agenda鈥檚 of a minority, & forced to participate in & contribute to purposes/projects/actions that their peoples may be adverse to....
... purposes/projects/actions that- using the Continent鈥檚 consistent conflict-filled 1000-year history as a template- would be driven more by imperialistic or power motives than by altruism and "world responsibility".
If constituted without an unequivocal mandate to meaningfully consult with EU member nations鈥 citizenry, the 鈥楨U reflection group committee鈥 will be another undemocratic, unrepresentative body that functions to repeat all-too-common EU history & deny member nations鈥 citizens & residents a legitimate, productive say in deciding the future of the EU & their country鈥檚 role within it.
In other words, it will function- predictably- as another sordid propagator of false-justifications for the EU becoming a super state.
________________
Roderick V. Louis,
(near) Vancouver,
Canada,
rvlouis@patientempowermentsociety.com
To Marco Borg the gentleman that made a comment earlier about an Islamic state. Thats absolutely ridiculous. There will never be a Fundamentalist Albanian state. The most important issue to Albanians everywhere is Nationalism, not religion.In Albania u will find Christian and Muslims as any other religious going in peace with each other.
Albania didn鈥檛 just came there as we all know Illyrians are their blood and they were there before Serbs or any Slavs came alone and occupied their lands,.
Albania wasn鈥檛 a Muslim nation till the Turks occupied them for 500 years and killed most of them only to convert them into Muslims.
Europe knows all about this . . . . Doesn鈥檛 it?
Long live a democratic Kosovo, and long live the spirit of the Albanian people.
If we are talking about whims, isn't it a "western community's whim" to create new states without UN backing. The talk about serb atrocities in Kosovo is not too convincing. How about Darfur, or Northern Ireland? Nobody dares to propose carving national teritorries there.
Sadly, this reminds too much of Munich agreements history. Country A refused to give enough authonomy to minority B, so international community made consensus to amputate B despite A's protests.
Another gloomy analogy: Iraq war was also initiated without UN support.
Cyprus, Romania and Slovakia know well they could be next. Internatinal law is the strongest thing small nations have to protect themselves.
I advise people who don't know the history not to bother to write here, it is really irritating to someone who lived in Kosovo their whole life. You read one article somewhere written by someone who has 1 brain cell and a keyboard, and you think you're an expert in the topic.
Where are kosova mass graves?? In many many places, there have been families of as much as 19 members completely wiped out? Nearly 1million people were deported in one day including my family, many killed on their way out of the country.
Several years before the war, just going to school you could get beaten up randomly by serbian police for no other reason other than being born albanian. We had no childhood what so ever, and not allowed to have a dream. Kosova has always been populated by albanians, serbo slavs came to the region from the east many centuries later. Kosovars who are direct descendant of illyrians have always been there. I don't want to give you a history lesson, all I can say is that I'm proud of being albanian, even after all the oppression we suffered, we are still open to work with serbs, and even forgive them, we want to look forward and not back, and we want a better life for us and all around us. We only feel sorry for the serbs that they consume themselves with so much hate, and they should live with shame for what they've done in all yugoslavia wars, and accept and apologise publicly. If all yugoslavia regions were allowed to break up, then kosovo should be allowed first. We are not slavs, have nothing else in common with other countries, kosovo has always belonged to kosovar albanians. Even UK slowly gave their independence to India, Hong Kong, etc. You can't keep hold of something that was never yours! Serb nation, wake up, think about the future of your kids, where do you want them to be, in Europe prospering, or filling your kids with hate and preparing them for more wars? Haven't you had enough?
And by the way, I can't even begin to understand how EU is preparing to let serbia in 'through the back door'?? Without removing all the ultra nationalism within serbs, serbia has no place in EU, and it will take years to root that out!
To all who denies to Kosovar Albanians the right for self-determination on the basis of territorial sovereignty, let's remember that we are talking about not Albanians but ex-Yugoslavia citizens (Kosovars whether of serbian or albanian ethnicity are citizen of the same country), and it's their fundamental right to decide as citizens whether or not to recognize their central governments.
I can't believe any freedom-loving, law-abiding, democratic citizen, in any country would not accept this argument.
The same that any democratic representative government's duty is to ensure the well-being of ALL its citizen, without discrimination.
If Kosovars by an outstanding majority feel that the Serbian government has foregone its right of management because of past oppression, how can we not respect their choice ?
Indeed, this can be very easily summarized as the choice between a peaceful divorce or a bloody civil war. Which one do you prefer, even if you don't like whatever outcomes or compensation ??
That the stakes are higher because consequences go farther than just in Kosovo, sure. But that's the issue of negotitating a settlement. That doesn't justify denying their right to self-determination to Kosovars (Albanians AND Serbians AND Roms AND Macedonians ...), because it affects other groups interest.
Unless you believe under the assumptions that people's rights don't matter for the sake of other groups interests. But that's not very democratic or libertarian.
Finally, if Basque people want through referendum to secede from Spain, that is their right. And that is the wonder that is the EU, that there are mechanisms under which they can secede and be protected, while Spanish interests can also be safeguarded. For the same reason, if UK citizen of pakistani origin wanted to secede from UK rule, why not ? After all isn't it what Scotland is in the process of doing ?
This why it is so important for a government to be listening and caring for its constituent parts if it wants to prevent implosion.
This is exactly what Serbia utterly failed to do for the past 20 years. And this is the price to Serbian pride. Should we sacrifice freedom to choose own's government over an overblown Serbian's sense of pride ?
Best regards,
Most of the people in here need some history lessions on the Balkans.Being so ignorant on the subject and still commenting on it makes you look foolish.
It is sad to see nobody daring to say openly that by sending troops and police into another country, the EU becomes an occupying power inside Serbia. Is this the way forward?
Kosova was never a part of serbia,and it will never be. Serbians had Kosova only for the lack of the Leadership that Kosova had in past decades. It's Sure that albanians will declare the indenpendence even that the Misters Ahtisari's Plan respects more than enough the rights of the 5 % of the serbians. What Are we giving for minorities (especially for serbs) its more than enough. They Have to be thankful for that, because nothing can`t pay for the crimes that serbs did against albanians in the foreign land (KOSOVA). Kosova was and still remains the land of the eagles, the flowers grow ALBANIAN, the Spirit is Albanian, and nothing connects serbians the EMERGING People that camed from the far of Russia, nothing connects them with Kosova (and it's actually funny the battle that they had with Ottomans way back in history, that meant nothing). They can say Kosova IS OURS, and stuff like that, but an old saying goes for them " WHILE SERBS SLEEP , THEY SEE KOSOVA WITH THEM " - The only thing that comes for a sleepin person is "DREAM". SO i suggest to you serbs to stop dreaming and move on, do some progresses, Kosova was never yours, u didnt lost anything the only thing you've lost is THE FACE, now the only face that worlds knows you is the CRIMINAL'S FACE.
Hello everyone ,
It's have been over a decade now that the great POwers are mending the errors of the past in the Balkans . These errors committed a century ago , were a product of a prerogative of power . But being so they created a contrived region named the Balkans .
TWO were the most unnatural creation Yugoslavia and the DISMEMBERMENT OF THE ALBANIAN NATION .
The dissolution of Yugoslavia was the first step towards a natural state of affairs with the Kosova being the last step in concluding this dissolution .
THE SECOND and the last phase is the unification of the Albanian nation.
AND NO MARCO Kosova was never a slavic territory or Serbian for that matter and will never be ( and yes I know that Serbia tried so desperately) .
The part of the problem is that the EU and the international community still consider Serbia as a democaatic state , which is NOT!!!!
Serbs have yet to reconcile the balane sheets whith their neighboutring nations such as Croatians , Bosnians and Albanians for commiting the terrible genicode and carnage against their nations.
After they have shed their shovinistic and hegemonic mentality then we can discuss the possibility of them joining the other civilised nations .At this time I do not htink that they are ready .
And finally , all the attempts by Serbian political propaganda machine to justify the unjustifiable slaugher of us albanians simply because they are defending the western values against the islamic fundamentalism have failed (croatians are christians and slavs, and still they were massacred !!!).
Albanian religious tolerance constitutes a major contribution in the Pantheon of EU values . especially today when religious conflict have taken frightening proportions .
It is a rare European value the fact that Albanians with a Muslim majority are born Euro-Americans.
And of course it is in the best interest of the Euro-American politics for this value so modern to be projected from the unified base .
Is there not some form of compromise available, how would kosovo becoming a semi autonomous region of serbia go down with both sides
Mark,
There exists a simple (although expensive) solution to Kosovo issue, which somehow never gets mentioned. Namely, EU should put its act together and offer Serbia WITH KOSOVO fast-track accession to EU. Kosova separatist authorities must then decide - either they want to join EU remaining part of Serbia, or not. Being faithful to ideas of humanity, EU on its part should try persuading Kosovars to choose first solution.
Of course, after it becomes part of EU Kosova will have to be peppered with EU money from Bruxelles, as its economy is lagrely not self-sustainable. However, once economic situation in Kosovo improves, people will start thinking, working, enjoying life, and will stop fighting for ghostly goals.
Finally, I should mention that this scenario is not without historical precedent. As you perhaps know, Germany faced sort of similar decision in early 50-th, when Khruschev (USSR) offered German unification under conditions of non-alignment, similar to the model just used for consolidating Austria, which was split into several occupation zones after WW2. For Germany that, of course, implied massive withdrawal of american military and industrial aid under Marshall plan. The result is known - proposition was narrowly defeated in Bundestag lead by chancelor Adenauer, and Germany remained divided for another four decades.
The Kosovar people deserve independence because they have suffered more than enough under Serbian oppression for decades. The list of reasons why Kosova should become independent is very long but I'll mention just a few:
1) The Kosovars were subjected to genocide and ethnic cleansing under Serbian rule. Serbia has lost its right to rule Kosova based on moral grounds.
2) Kosova was a constituent entity within Yugoslavia with special status enshrined in the Yugoslav constitution. It had representation at the federal level and self-governing rights just like the rest of the republics. The dissolution of Yugoslavia provides the legal grounds for Kosovar independence.
3) The majority of the Kosovar people are of Albanian ethnicity and make up 90% of the total population. Serbs are Slavic peoples. The Kosovar Albanians have no cultural, linguistic, or historic ties with the Serbs. The Slovenes, Croats, Bosnians, even Montenegrins chose independence. Why then should the Kososvars who overwhelmingly support independence be force to live under Serbian rule?
Recognizing Kosovo as an independent state means that industrialized nations sending wrong message to minorities all over the world. Instead of thinking about the world security they are putting it on fire.
kosovo will be indepedent soon.its only way for peace in europe.
albanians are the oldest people in balkan the mos culturaL people in balkan..so support indepedence of kosovo...
I cant believe the Serbs are being blamed for the way Yugoslavia was run, Tito was half Croat/Slovenian.
The Communists kicked anyone that was not pro yugoslavia out of the country. Seemsas though Serbia's biggets mistake was to not back Germany in WW2 but to side with the allies! Albania and Croatia where both PRO Hitler in WW2, and are now being rewarded for it!! The Allies stabbed the Serbs in the back but the Austrians and Germans are standing by their own!
Hi all,
There are only few points I would like to make, mostly reflecting other people's comments:
1) Lots of hatred is still there in your, much more from Albanian side
2) Serbian pride is at stake, their thugs and paramilitaries have been found guilty for serious crimes
3) Legally resolution 1244 says Kosovo is part of Serbia and it was signed by all the involved sides. Any attempts to recognise independence by ignoring this resolution is against UN chapter. Still, even the bombing in 1999 was done without a mandate from the Security Council.
4) Serbia would be economically much better off without Kosovo. It has been its burden for long time and because of its spiritual role for Serbs they would be still ready to invest maybe even more than the EU is ready.
5) If independent, Kosovo would be still fully dependent on the EU for all funds. They could look back and see how all the help has been drained out of Kosovo during the past 8 years.
6) I visited in Kosovo couple of times in old Yugoslavia and after. What I remember seeing then and am still surprised to see now is the level of rubbish and dirt on the streets. This has not changed at all even now. This and all the similar issues the residents will have to solve themselves, either in their independent state or as a part of Serbia.
7) I have not seen any side yet presenting a solution that would see into the future co-habitation of Serbs and Albanians.
8) Is there any study how the independence would be accepted in the region? Or the autonomy within Serbia? What would happen with rights of Albanians in Macedonia? Or Serbs in Bosnia? Or Albanians in Greece? Or Hungarians in Romania? Deciding on independence for Kosovo may only encourage all these minority to become more hostile and demand more rights up to the boiling point when they could asked for their independence? Who is it going to prevent this happening? EU or NATO? Will this bring peace?
I could probably go on and on with this...
Wishing peace, prosperity and good will to all people in the Balkans
Kosova is for kosovar,Serbia for Serbs.Croatia for Croat,Slovenia for Sloven,Macedonia for Macedonian.Bosnia for Bosnian,Albanian for Albania,Montenegto.for Montenegro newer ever Yugosollavia is finsih no more Yugosolavia forgetit
The Kosovo Albanians do not have a legal right to seccession. I see the comments here stating that Kosovo has never been Serbian but somehow it is, by International Law, part of the legal framework of Serbia. If Kosovo's Albanian majority is granted independence by NATO in violation of 1244 and the UN Charter they will no doubt celebrate. However, as an American taxpayer sick and tired of funding American Military adventures overseas I can say, peering out of nine trillion dollars of debt, that we will again turn inward at some point in the future. The EU will be distracted dealing with water wars (if the EU doesn't fragment altogether from disagreements and Islamic insurgencies all their own) and Serbia sometime in the twenty-first century will deal with the Kosovars with a free hand. After all, cite me all the history you want but if paper treaties cannot protect the territorial integrity of Serbia today than they sure will not save Kosovo's independent legal status in the mess that is sure to be planet Earth by 2060. Serbia was putting the KLA to flight and whipping them good in 1999, which is why the Albanians both inside and outside Kosovo cried like a baby for NATO "help." The NATO powers will not always be there and Russia won't always be a doormat for the West. One way or another Serbia will get her province back and with all the Islamic trouble Europe has building up inside her borders and her demographics the rest of Europe might not only cheer but help!
..i think that Columbo didnt discover America,..it was occupation of America by Columbo,..that land belongs to native Indians,..which once were majority and then became minority,..they didnt just died of getting old,...so far now you maybe understand pattern forced on Yugoslavia and Serbia ,..by NeoNazi Nato and allies.Yugoslavia was a state with process of complex multi-ethnic unity ,place where hard enemies became a friends,..but U.S. and E.U. couldnt allowed that patent being in process in communist country which intelectually became above them,.. Nazi partnership never died in Croatia ,..blessed by Vatican.,Austria,Germany,..Italy,..
Friendship is american-english patent for sale ,..same with democracy,..interests will be taken care by world bank..Question ,..which bank will be printing new Kosovan money,..of course it will be printed by hungry military dog coalition which created and financed expansion of problems in Yugoslavia ,.....Yugoslavia will never be forgotten.,..and it will rise again,..it was home for brothers and sisters,..friends,.everything else is western drugs and lies,..,.. Western culture is true criminal culture and it is very visible,..Right now world is about to explode from human garbage,..
and its all product of somebodys version of succesfull chronically unsecure "capitalism " with schizofrenia.
Kosovo is an artificial creation and is meant as a foothold for US military/economic interests. Serbia would not let the US in in the 1990s so the US/EU decided to take territory by force. A huge US military base was built there shortly after Kosovo was made a UN protected entity. What's that about?
Kosovo never was a state and it is a part of Serbia. It should not be allowed any independence because it never was a nation, just a region.
The west has been trying to break up Yugoslavia for decades in pursuit of its own interests. In 1990 it got its wish. But first, old Tito had to go and Milosevic, who HAD to be scapegoated as a tyrranical dictator because he tried to keep the country together and would not march to the US/EU tune.
That's why Serbia was bombed mercilessly in 1999, because it refused to allow NATO forces onto its soil and ceded control of a part of their country.
No independence for Kosovo should be allowed. It is and should remain a part of Serbia.
For those who say there was no mass graves in Kosova comited by serbian people there are plenty of places you can start at Adem Jashari's family evryone was Massacred by serbian army you people are insane what do you think all those people got abducted by aliens or something there are 2000 missing you will see their pictures all over prishtina i am albanian from Kosova i was there during the war and many of my relatives got killed as so quit trying trying to make it like it never happend Independence it will happen very fast FREE KOSOVA is the only way me and my people deserve to be FREE
The facts are quite simple: US has promised independence to Kosovo Albanians. It is widely known that in 1998 US sent CIA instructors to Kosovo to support the UCK. Europe has to deal with it. International treaties and laws are broken but who cares? This situation will be considered as a precedent for other secessions based on ethnicity and demographic changes.
To Donald and other people labeling Serbian state and nation as backward and genocidal, I would advise reading some history about world wars - they will see how both nations (Serbian and Albanian) fared in those wars and what sides they fought for. The second thing, on treating minorities. All those major European countries giving lectures on tolerance and self-determination destroyed or assimilated any "major" minority within its own borders over the last few centuries. Albanians will most liely get independece for their second country, soon to unite with Albania. That's fine. But I can only hope that emerging minorities from Africe, Middle east, Pakistan, etc, that are forming in Western Europe will learn from and follow the Albanian example. When I was a small kid 30 years ago, I remember they were 70% majority in Kosovo. Now they are more than 90%. This is how you conquer. By that example, few centuries from now West Pakistan will cover third of what is nowadays England, and Northern Algiers will cover south of France.
To Donald and other people labeling Serbian state and nation as backward and genocidal, I would advise reading some history about world wars - they will see how both nations (Serbian and Albanian) fared in those wars and what sides they fought for. The second thing, on treating minorities. All those major European countries giving lectures on tolerance and self-determination destroyed or assimilated any "major" minority within its own borders over the last few centuries. Albanians will most likely get independece for their second country, soon to unite with Albania. That's fine. But I can only hope that emerging minorities from Africa, Middle East, Pakistan, etc, that are forming in Western Europe will learn from and follow the Albanian example. When I was a small kid 30 years ago, I remember Albanians were 70% majority in Kosovo. Now they are more than 90%. This is how you conquer. By that example, a century from now West Pakistan will cover third of what is nowadays England, and Northern Algiers will cover south of France.
You say, bodies are being found in central Serbia. Yes, they are. And that's a shame. But Serbian people were never found. There are approx 5000 people missing. And their families don't have a clue where they are. Buried or alive. Nothing.
And, how come there are 90% of Albanians on Kosovo today? And only few percents of Serbs. If Serbs ethnicly cleansed them? Who committed more crimes and where are all those Serbs who were majority on Kosovo before WWII (that was only 50 years ago, you can not persuade me they all vanished somewhere without mark)?
And let me explain something.
You say Albanians migrated to Balkans many centuries ago, before Serbs did. Where are their historical monuments? There aren't any. They are said to be descendants of Ilyrs. But, there are Ilyrian monuments on Balkans. Compare their language and culture, and you'll find minute match with nowadays Albanians.
And let's not speak of those fairytales about Serbs killing unborn Albanians (by stabbing knives in their mothers stomach etc) in the past. It's well known that Albania was created by Austrian-Hungarian empire, to disconnect Serbia and Greece in 1912. In WWI when Serbian army was withrowing from Serbia to Corfu, Greece, during the march through Albania, it was Albanians who attacked Serbian people retreating along with the army. In 1940s, Albanians were best Hitler's allies. Two SS divisions were formed oh the territory of Kingdom of Yugoslavia, one of them was 21st Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Skanderbeg, formed from Kosovo Albanians. They were especially cruel towards Serbs and Macedonians. And stop talking only about Serbian crimes, the other side of the medal is not shiny at all. Albanians are not flowers...
Steve, If the churches of KosovO are also albanian, then why do albanians DESTROY them?? There is plenty of footage showing albanians destroying these churches, its a disgrace! Also, this so called place "dardania" doesnt exist. Only in fairytales. For all those saying KosovO never was Serbian, then show me monuments, churches, or anything that pre-dates the Serbian artifacts from Kosovo. Serbians made Kosovo into what it is, albanians had no community in KosovO and were pretty much roaming the countryside. The way I see it, albanians have 2 choices, live in Serbia (KosovoO) or go to albania. Kosovo isnt for sale and cannot be stripped away from Serbia again.
majority want that kosovo must be be an independent state i agree with everybody but it has got a big problem, kosovo is an autonomous region. if kosovo become an independent, it effected the other autonomous region. they are waiting the security council's decision. but russia and china probably reject this desician because of its region. when look at the supported countries they haven't got a ethnic problem. the history of balkan's, it was always had problem.
kosovo will declare its independence and some countries support them but i hope not return the 98's. it seems imposible.
Dear readers,
Once again, a well written article by Mr.Murdell. As an Albanian from north Albania (bordering Kosova), I am grateful for Mark's interest on Kosova's future. Having read all comments,I am indeed astonished by the sheer stupidity and complete lack of knowledge demonstrated by individuals who oppose Kosova indpendence.A piece of advice: If you do not know anything about Kosova and Albanians, please don't make a fool out of yourself. Now, let me put forward a few facts:
1) Kosova was never,is not and will never be Serbia..(read: Noel Malcolm: "A short history of Kosova" for an accurate and impartial view)
2) Your propoganda aimed in portraying Albania as an Islamic state is utter nonsense. Albania became the first atheist country in the world in 1967. Now, people are free to follow any religion and Albania and Kosova are perfect examples of religious harmony. Albanian religion is Albanianism. WE ARE THE MOST PRO-US AND PRO-EU NATION IN EUROPE.
3) In 1913,at the Ambassadors conference in London,Kosova was annexed to Yugoslavia. "The right of a more civilised people" was one of the main arguments presented to Ambassadors by Serbia as to why Kosova (part of Albania) must be given to Serbia. Would you say that this "ancient" civilization demonstrated that quality in wars that followed in Croatia, Slovenia, Bosnia and Kosova? Quite the opposite really..
4)Some individuals claim that Kosova is Serbian because is the heart of the Orthodox church. Within this framework, English must claim Jerusalem as the heart of Christianity.Pathetic!!!
5) And finally Kosova is independent and will gain worldwide recognition very soon..Case closed!!! Serbia needs to take the first step and make a public apology for all attrocities perpertrated in the Balkans. This would be the first step towards reconciliation of all Ballkan people.
Thank you
To Mirek:
The EU had no forces in Srebrenica, you are probably referring to the Dutch battalion under UN command.
Now the EU has a military mission in BiH, it's called EUFOR and is doing a great job on the ground.
[#24]
Old Europe's forces always do a great job these days (no mater under whose formal command) as long as they're not challenged.
The moment they are it's a 'drole de guerre' all over again.
COMBAT troops- my foot!
As for UN peacekeepers and their effectiveness anywhere in the world - I won't touch the subject even with a 10 ft. pole.
I notice Mark has mentioned President Sarkozy's position on Turkey. I have to say I agree with Sarkozy and cannot understand why politicians in my own country (Britain) are so enthusiastic about Turkey joining the European Union.[#29]
"I'd rather have them in my tent pissing out, than outside my tent pissing in".
Lyndon. B. Johnson
P.S. If you wanted to keep huge EU subsidies for French agriculture going, you too would object to Turkey's admission just as pres. Sarkozy does, for Turks produce huge amounts of superb but v. cheap fruit and vegetables. On the other hand , if you wanted to see those subsidies busted and prices of produce in EU go down you might have a different perspective. :-)
It is sad to see the Albanians here inventing history to support their case. Illyrians DID NOT become Albanians - Albanians ARE NOT Illyrians... among others imagined hisotrical "facts". There IS NO internationally recognised genocide in Kosovo, there were widespread attrocities conducted by BOTH sides... and so on and so on... making up facts to support a territorial grab away from Serbia. Too boring an FUTILE to argue against all of them specifically... they will just get repeated again on another blog here or elsewhere, in the media, etc...
The only workablle solutio is a PARTITION of Kosovo, giving parts to Serbia, leaving the rest with the Albanians to fend for themselves and do whatever they please...
As for the LIES the Albanians are now constructing to support their case, or even their own propaganda/history they either believe or just abuse, it will come to haunt them later at some point in the future. When they get the chance, the Serbs will RECAPTURE Kosovo yet again, and, knowing its history, probably deal with it very harshly...
... as for the rest of the Western world, this biased application of rules and morality, treating Serbia as a "special case", while ignoring the same or worse situations elsewhere in the world, it will result in increased conflict in many other places and a lack of trust in the EQUAL application of the rule of law to everyone... and the consequences of this will follow.
All EU memberstates, and so the EU as a whole, are legally bound to accept the will of recognised peoples to self-governance over the territory in which the reside given that such will has been clearly, democratically and unequivocably expressed. This is due to all such states being signatories to the European charter on human rights, and subjects to the EU rule of law. These rights trump all other legal principles, including a states right to territorial integrity.
So for example if a large majority of scots became favourable to independence, voted accordingly and consistently in parliamentary elections and in any referenda on the subject, then all EU states including the UK would have to recognise Scotland as a new state. This is, in fact, the accepted position in all EU memberstates with respect to their separatist movements, save Cyprus. Of course they all do their uttmost to avoid referenda on the subject and they all try every avenue to delay and turn back the tide, such as greater autonomy, preferential funding etc, but in the end of the day they all accept that self-determination trumps territorial integrity in such matters. The same is true in Kosovo. The problem there is that because of Serbia's behaviour in the past, the kosovans have no interest in being bribed with greater partial autonomy or any of the other standard goodies EU states offer to keep the people sweet. Relations have been soured beyond that point and so the kosovans will not be disuaded. They are clearly utterly, overwhelmingly and consistently determined to gain independence and a referendum would almost certainly gain 80% approval, so there seems nothing left to do but to recognise an independent kosovo and be done with it.
Once both Serbia and Kosovo are in the EU with its four freedoms, common currency and so on, a partial reunion of the two will be the de facto and de jure reality anyway.
Kosovo must remain under the administration of the international community for some time, possibly for two generations or more. The rest of Europe and the civilized world cannot allow another conflict with large loss of life, terror against civilians and a costly refugee crisis. The competing historical and territorial claims of Albania and Serbia cannot be entertained at this time, as doing so would inevitably lead to violence. The UN has stayed in Korea and Cyprus for a very long time, and with good reason. It will be the same for Kosovo. Remember the Danzig Free State? It was created by the international community to avoid a flare-up between the claims of two competing nations. Such a rationale works for Kosovo, hopefully better enforced this time!
End of EU soft power in Serbia
Kosovars have indeed suffered from atrocities under Milosevic; the man has now been prosecuted and is now dead, while his generals are hiding out or met a similar fate. The dynamics of statehood however is a different matter alltogether. Sure, some find it convenient to grant them independance for many geo-strategic reasons, of which the wellbeing of Kosovars is of course the last (this is politics, remember). I think the independance would simply be the last morcel the EU can swallow, the place where "the buck stops" in terms of western expansion towards the Russian border, "just in case". There is only so many subsidised states Eu can afford, if it does not want to join the fate of the USSR, a state with too many subsidised periferal states and republics. What contribution can Kosovo grant to the EU economy, 10 years down the road? What can it do that China or India can't?
Housing a US base, that's what.
However, i think to do that would be a fatal mistake to the EU policy in the region. By further antagonising Serbia, EU cements a new "border between east and west", and its soft power towards the Serbs would be gone below zero. If they do it, Serbs will be much less likely to conduct a pro-Us, pro-Eu policy in the future. So, instead of fostering cooperation and enhansing its soft power in the region, Eu grabs a last little piece and brings its influence in Sebia to an end (along with demonstrating its disdain for international law). Of course, a settlement between Serbia and Kosovo would be very possible, if Kosovars were not pumped full of false assurance by the US.
For Kosovar people, independance will mean a small group of wealthy oligarhs singing the song of "patience while waiting for democracy to feed you" to the half-starving population (take Georgia as example).
Balcan wars were nasty for everybody there and I repeat, everybody. Continuing to saw division and hatred by separating Kosovo will not benefit anybody. If it separates, after initial celebration the grim reality will set in. We've seen it so many times around the world. That said, I'm still not sure if the whole thing can be pulled off so easily after all.
If Kosovo becomes independent, there are a number of lessons to be learnt:
1) From the point of view of any country with a sizeable minority with its own ethnic(or religious, see Bosnia, where you have Serbs, Croats and Muslims, not really an ethnic background)
minority, then the safest option is do the job right, i.e. how the Turks dealt with the Armenians and other minorities. If, as argued above,
Serbs practiced or attempted to practice "genocide" against Albanians and hence lost the right to sovereignty, then the Turks did the job right-as evidenced by the fact that no one is suggesting today that Turkey has lost sovereinty because of the Armenian genocide. At the end does one prefer to exterminate a hostile minority(including the innocent), or lose both that minority and its own people(including the innocent) in "collateral damage" and depleted uranium contamination?
2) If you are a country that faces immigration of people with a different ethnic background/religion, then you must make sure to stop this immediately and deport those already there. If you do not do that, that minority, in time, can settle in a specific area, become a local majority, start harassing local residents, forcing them to leave, perhaps develop an armed branch to attack police stations, publicize(with the aid of gullible sensationalist press) your police's/armed forces's response and perhaps get NATO to bomb you back into the stone age.
Given that few Europeans would consider emigrating to say islamic states, it would be a very sound AlQueda strategy for expanding into Europe, by sending immigrants who would accumulate in specific areas.
3) If you are a country with a strong nationalist feeling and want to claim a piece of your neighbor's
land, the reverse strategy is the safest course of action.
4) If you are a country who cares to defend your people, then you must follow the example of Ahmadinezad and not Milosevic: build nukes at all costs and no one will mess with you, no matter what you do. At no event should you take
international guarantees, international negotiators and UN resolutions seriously, as the same
countries and people who give these resolutions do not take them seriously.
P.S.1)Could there not be a better world than this Machiavellian picture?
2) A number of posts show they have no knowledge of the situation, when they classify recent immigrants(many of them illegal) as "minority" and
occupation troops as "separatists".
It is sad but true that Yugoslavia was not prepared for the eventuality of her break up. The responsibility for this rests with Tito. If Yugoslavia would have had nuclear capability she would still be in existence today. Even in 1999 just a 2 dozen SCUDS and without nuclear war heads would have been sufficient for Italy to prevent NATO from using her bases as a launch pad. But by far the greatest contributor to the break up of this unfortunate country were the diaspora ethnics in Canada, USA, Germany, France and UK.
So, those are just some of the lessons for other states to learn. I think Iran has the right idea.
Thomas,
It is a shame that you live in Canada - the country where everyone is respected and treated like a human being.
You deserve to live in Serbia. You think like Milosevic.
You blame everybody (Croations, Slovenians, Bosnians, Albanians and their Western friends USA, Germany UK, France etc) but Serbia loosing the war despite the fact that Serbian forces killeng a few hundred thousand people. The only sorry you must have is the fact that you did not clean up completely the areas (genocide).
Are you and some others here listening to yourselves. That time is gone. No more people will be left under you guys to "take care". you have shown how you take care of other ethnic groups({"clean them up"). That is why people from Kosova will prefer death than have any thing less that indipendance from Serbia.
Kosova is lost long time ago.
The question for you guys is which way do you go: West or East(Russia).
Adi from Canada
There are 3,500 ethnicities on this planet. Should there be 3,500 countries ? If a region has 100% local autonomy does it really matter to be a seperate country ?? Foolish nationalism is just that foolish. If I were a Kosovar I would open a Burger King franchise and get on with my life. Letting Kosovo become independent will cause alot of problems. The Serbs have already told the Kosovars they can have all the autonomy they want. Serbia once in the EU will integrate its economy into Europe and Kosovo will also. People care about their finances and the economy. Politicians who make their salaries off of nationalism need to be slam dunked. Northern Ireland is learning fast that prosperity is more important than which color a piece of clothe is waving in front of the post office.
Mother nature and societal evolution have no time for this nonsense. The longer a country resists the new global world the more behind it will become.
Greece not only doesn't meet the economic criteria for EU or NATO membership, but it neither meets the political criteria.
There are large ethnic minorities living in Greece (Macedonians, Turks, Albanians, Roma, Vlach) that are forbidden from even identifying with their respective minority groups.
The Macedonians and Turks living in Greece, for example, were forced to changed their own personal names into Greek sounding names and are not allowed to change them back.
This is only one example of the systematic human rights violations perpetrated on the ethnic Macedonians, Turks and others living in Greece.
And these are very well documented by the Council of Europe, the OSCE, the Greek Helsinki Monitor and the US State Department.
Rather than Greece trying to change it's neighbours names, it should cease all human rights violations in relation to the minorities living within its own borders
Even in 1999 just a 2 dozen SCUDS and without nuclear war heads would have been sufficient for Italy to prevent NATO from using her bases as a launch pad. [#90]
If you had known anything about military matters you wouldn't have written such a nonsence.
B-2 bombers, which made a parking lot of Milosevic's paradise, have flown all the way from Missouri as they always do - it's a merely 32 hrs long mission, mostly on auto pilot, with 2 air-refuellings - and F-117s mainly from Ramstein (Germany) and Incirlik (Turkey).
"I think Iran has the right idea."
So why dont' you move there, hopefully before US takes pity on lunatic ayatollahs and sends them nukes they so much desire by a reliable express air delivery service, such as USAF.
"Thomas from Canada" perhaps has not lived in Canada very long. He seems to misunderstand Canada's Quebec minority, as well as the situation of ethnic groups in other countries who form a regional majority in their ancestral homelands while being national minorities. He seems to feel that it is unfair for Kosova Albanians to have independence, since francophone Quebec cannot get its independence. Quebec has had several referendums on sovereignty and the independence camp did not win. In recent Quebec elections, the pro-Independence party has had further setbacks. Much of this has to do with a perception by many French speakers that they are welcomed in Canada, cherished by Canada, and that there are greater opportunities for a French speaker in a large Canada. Although French speakers are a minority in all Canadian provinces but one, the entire country is officially bilingual, with French speakers being able to demand service by government in French. All but one Prime Minister since the 1960's have been bilingual, and in fact most have been Quebeckers. The desire of holding Quebec within Canada is so great a national effort --albeit not universally accepted-- that even the Conservative leader and present PM, an Albertan, is fully competent in French, and he delivers speeches in both languages routinely and without fanfare. Quebec is not held in Canada by force, by threats, or SCUDS, Thomas. It's purely by respect and self-interest.
Could you imagine a bilingual Serbia, with the leaders of Serbian political parties having national television debates in the Albanian language? Would you think that most Serbians would embrace this other group, or would there be more people feeling that Serbs were forced to do it?
There is presently talk of a secession of Flanders from Belgium. I tend to think that the inability of the French speaking Belgian monarch or even Miss Belgium to speak Dutch properly sends a clear signal to the Dutch community that their community is not respected properly. Although the Flemish might not be suffering what the Serbs recently have done to the Albanians of Kosova, there is certainly a similar sense that the national state is separate from them.
"Thomas from Canada" does not understand that the reason why some minorities wish to remain in their existing states is because the inhabitants feel that they have more to gain by staying. This is certainly the case with Catalonia, for example. There are not many European groups that have tried to secede over the last 50 years. In far more cases, these ethnic minority regions wish to remain, although typically with a renegotiation of more autonomy and other amenable terms of coexistence.
Many Serbians such as "Thomas from Canada" feel convinced that outsiders are causing these minorities to leave the Serbian controlled state, but the reality is that most of these peoples seceded out of fear of Serbian control over their lives. This isn't just a fear of Milosevic. Look at Montenegro, which is really a Serbian sister state that has traditionally allied itself with Serbia and that has no animosity toward Serbs at all. Why did Montenegro choose divorce? Surely you do not believe that Germany and other large EU states really want yet another micro-state with voting power as an EU state? The preferred model for these larger states is to keep multi-ethnic states intact. This is especially true with the UK, France and Spain, which themselves contain various "minority" nationalities. So why do the Albanians of Kosova want to leave Serbia? Kosova does not gain economically either by independence or in union with the even poorer Albania. The simple reason for Kosovan independence is that its inhabitants fear that Serbia will again try to diminish their cultural rights in the land of their birth. Serbia has lost its trust all by its own actions and comments.
When "Thomas of Canada" suggests that the Kosova Albanians who don't want to be ruled by Serbia should go to Albania, he provides a good reason for Kosova independence. This is the ethnic cleansing "solution" to all ethnic political problems, and it is an ancient human solution, not a Serbian preserve. It is the story of one tribe killing another tribe or causing the other tribe to run away in fear of being killed. This is not a good 21st Century solution to political differences.
Thomas, you are presumably now in a country that welcomes you and that respects you and your culture, despite the fact that you are neither English nor French. But how would you feel if the Canadian government told you personally, "If you disagree with this government's policies over Kosova or anything else, go back to Serbia?" Would you still proudly describe yourself as "Thomas of Canada," or would Canada become your enemy?
The chief problem for the Serbian case in Kosova was that previous autonomous rights enjoyed by Kosova Albanians were taken away. Would you still be happy in Canada if your rights were taken away?
You might say, "Why fear us? We are good people. Milosevic is gone." That is a reasonable argument, except when we read epiphanies such as those by "Thomas of Canada," who surmises that "if Yugoslavia would have had nuclear capability she would still be in existence today" and "those are just some of the lessons for other states to learn," and "I think Iran has the right idea." What "Thomas of Canada" is saying is that if one had enough weapons, then one could silence minorities that want liberty. This is a very disturbing idea. It also is historically incorrect. The USSR was one of the most militarized police states in the history of the world, yet Ukraine and many other occupied republics broke away at the first chance that they could.
Do you really in your heart believe that foreigners caused the Ukrainians, Georgians, Armenians, Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians and others to leave the Russian orbit? Don't you think that the memory of the gulags, the atrocities of millions killed, the deportations to Siberia, had something to do with these people wanting to be masters in their own houses?
The honor of Serbians who died trying to keep their people from being swallowed up by the Ottomans should be memorialized, and we should look upon minority peoples' struggles to self-rule in a similar vein, don't you think? I tend to think that your brave ancestors would understand why it is necessary for a people to be free.
"Thomas of Canada," there is also an example in the country lying to the south of your own Canada, which had virtually all of its major cities occupied by British troops, who forced themselves on the locals and demanded that they house them and feed them while occupying them. This kind of raw brute power exercised by the British Army, in the case of America in the 1770's, caused English subjects to suddenly start to see themselves as Americans.
Brutality and the threat of brutality do not keep people in line, Thomas. It does the opposite. It creates disorder, discomfort, anger, and it creates freedom-fighters. I think that the struggle of the Serbians against the Ottoman Turks, Nazis and others, should have proven this for you. The same rules of human nature apply to Serbs, Kosova Albanians, Canadians, and all people. All decent people want to be liked and respected and to be allowed to live freely. When someone treads on them, their first reaction is hatred, then thoughts of leaving or fighting. People do not want to be given that kind of choice by their rulers, and this is why peoples given such choices will crave independence and grab for it at the first chance that they can get.
Thank you for the lecture Robert Otis. I suspect you are also from Canada.
You are wrong to think I am a recent new Canadian. I am a Canadian for the past 40 years. I have watched the evolution of the Quebec separatist movement from the days of the War Measures Act which our then Prime Minister Trudeau brought forth.
And Yes Canada has gone a long way to make French Canadians feel included.
But I do not want to get into a discussion of Quebec separatist movement.
Serbia has gone a long way to make Albanians feel included long before the illegal NATO bombardment in which Canada (my country) took part. However, unlike French Canadians, the Albanians will have none of that.
The main reason is the missguided support of the independence movements by the West anywhere they imagine there is injustice. Standards of injustice measured by the Anglo-Saxon yardstick. So Serbia is automatically in the same camp as Russia. It helps that they write in Cyrilic script and speak a language you do not understand. And somehow you came to this great conclusion that Yugoslavia was an artificial structure that can not exist as a whole and be viable at the same time. Well let's see how viable Kossovo as a State will be.
I do not pretend to speak for the Serbs (I am not a Serb) but I can surmise where they are coming from.
Serbs do not want to keep Kossovo because they want to dominate the Kossovars. They only want to retain the land which rightfully belongs to them and means so much to the Serb Nation.
But no matter how you look at it Robert Otis, the recognition of Kossovo as a state will be illegal and will not be able to have representation in the UN as long as Russia insits. And I supect China will hold the same view. More so, I suspect same goes for the rest of the Planet. Kossovo independence is the last aftereffect of the carving up of Yugoslavia. Which I must ad was cobbled togeather by the same players that are taking it apart.
It has nothing to do with a desire of a people to have their own country
which they already have anyway (Albania). On the international level it has to do with a disregard for International Laws which the Western States implement and use sellectivly at best of time.
There is a saying Robert Otis which in Canada we know well: What goes around comes around, or is it what comes around goes around? The precedent will have been set and see the rest unfold.
And yes Robert Otis I think the agitation by the immigrant groups in the West, especially USA, Canada, UK, Germany and France with the support of those governments was instrumental in the break up of Yugoslavia and Soviet Union. And this was done with a clear intent to do exactly that. I would go as far as suggest there were Anti-Slavic racist undercurrents in all of this. A convergence of prejudices I could say. The Pope because of Catholicism, the Americans because of desire to weaken Russia, keep NATO meaningfull, bring allies in line and that brought along the Canadians and UK. And Germany because it had huge immigrant populations from Croatia, Slovenia and Kossovo. But most of all because it was perceived to be low risk. The future will tell.
Dear "Thomas of Canada." A few points of correction to your last posting:
1. "anti-slavic racist undercurrents" involved in the support of the breakup of Yugoslavia:
a)Slovenes are Slavs
b)Croats are Slavs
c)Bosnians are Slavs
d)Macedonians are overwhelmingly Slavs
e)Montenegrins are Slavs and Serbs, as well. They attempted to remain with Serbia but eventually decided to leave.
2. You state that you are not a Serb, and you suggest that you speak a Slavic language or two, but amazingly you do not know that Slovenes, Croats, Bosnians, Macedonians and Montenegrins are Slavs. (!!!???) Or is it that you believe that Slovenes, Croats, Bosnians, Macedonians and Montenegrins are themselves anti-Slavic racists, simply because they wanted to have independent countries??? Would you similarly describe the Slovaks as anti-slavic racists, simply because they wanted to not be part of Czechoslovakia???
3. Kosovan Independence, you describe as having "nothing to do with a desire of a people to have their own country which they already have anyway (Albania)." I agree that the Kosovan Albanians only feel forced into independence for their own self preservation on their ancestral lands. In earlier times during the Yugoslav State, they enjoyed various rights of autonomy and cultural self expression, and during those years, there was little desire for independence or for joining the Albanian state. Only with the relatively recent abuses by Serbia have they had to look to independence as a survival mechanism. Shocking comments by certain Serbs or by non-Serbs such as yourself, have a tendency to cause them to distrust Beograd. This is why they look to independence. Even if it is not a viable economic state, they can at least control their own affairs. This is the act of desperate people who are afraid, not economists or geopolitical strategists.
You do not allow them to stay sovereign in their homes in Kosova. To you, they either submit to the will of Serbia or they go to Albania. Would you want to be told to leave your home in Canada, because you have some other ethnic homeland that you theoretically could flee to for safety? Of course not. You are a Canadian and should not be put out of your home. The Canadian state should protect you and help nurture your freedoms. Same for the Kosovars, but Beograd cannot be safely trusted, as long as there is a sizable minority of commentators that express your kind of opinions about them.
Here's the irony: you are happy and free to live in Canada, and you clearly have your heart and energies wrapped up in the Balkans in some unknown country that you tell us is not Serbia. That is fine. That is acceptable behavior in free countries, especially in North America, where most people do have some kind of ethnic ties to other countries or cultures. But you refuse to allow for an Albanian Kosovar people to continue to live in their ancestral homes as their own masters. You tell them they are in Serbia, although the Slavs entered the Balkans hundreds and hundreds of years after the Albanians were long settled there. You tell them to join Albania, but Kosova is specifically FORBIDDEN by the EU and its supporters from joining with "their country" of Albania. I assume that Serbia and its imperial benefactors also would not want Kosovan union with Albania, either. You are happy to have a safe and comfortable place such as Canada to be free to tell Kosova Albanians that they cannot have sovereignty in their own towns AND they cannot join the place that you call "their country" of Albania. Why should you alone be free to keep your unnamed homeland (you say it is not Serbia) protected, and for you to be safe and free and economically better off in Canada, while the people of Kosova have to sit afraid in their homes praying that Serbia not abuse them? Why are you so generous with yourself but not with these trampled people?
It's funny that you started by mentioning Quebec but when I showed how Quebecois were "won over" by the hard work of Canada to keep them happy, you no longer want to refer to Quebec. The reason is that you just do not want to admit that Serbia screwed up, that Serbia is still screwing it up. Rather than reaching out to the Kosovar Albanians and rolling back their autonomy and thinking of ways to extend it and to help the Albanians feel "at home" in Serbia, the hardline Serbian expansionist camp is trying to bury Kosovar Albanians with threats - big bully friends won't allow for their independence, their economy will fail, etc. etc. Truly, you would never stand for someone talking to you like that. You would not accept such a person as a friend or partner if s/he spoke to you like that.
4. Minor point here, but I'm not Canadian. I am American. Believe it or not, a lot of Americans do look at maps, do read history books, do learn languages. I guess you are puzzled how a non-Canadian could speak well of a country that is not his own. It's easy if one believes that all people are basically the same. It's more freeing to one's mind, and helps one learn things. It also frees one of the poisons of nationalistic vitriol, which are fed to small children who sometimes have been so brainwashed that they do not have enough sense to spit that poison out, keeping them, as adults, stunted, and unable to truly enjoy their freedom.
once and for all we should all know that granting the independence to kosova is first of all the udty of europe since it was them who in most part of the history helped serbs to gain by giving them the right under the pressure of rusia to ocupy and hold that part of the world like it was theirs which ever way we look at it kosova was never part of serbia and as such should in that full right get that fact recognised by all the parties concerned first of all europe.if somebody should complain it is kosovans themselfs for europe waiting this long this should have been done ages ago and would have untill now finished one of the most important chapters of ballkans and europes history.to "thomas the canadian" who asks for kosovans who do not like to be in his kind of serbia to go to albania i would say that if they succeded as they tried during 1913 to ocupy the albania aswell then now 100 years later they would call that part as hart of serbia even though he knows wery well that hart of serbia is about 2000 miles east where everobody speaks russian and they would find thewselfs very much in their habitat so my "canadian" friend be good and help us all by crossing through baring strait and be where your hart really is
Has anyone heard of the "Divide and Rule" doctrine. Think about it. A fragmanted Balkan region is better than a united one. Let alone that conflicts are good business for weapons dealers.
Re: response 93.
I would be interested to see some statistics in terms of how large are the "ethnic minorities" of Greece and some references to the "well documented" condemnations. The only ethnic minority I am aware of is the muslim population of Thrace.
And also why no minority of Greece does not rally for freedom? Very odd...
to the "Canadian expert".
you fergot to mention that Croation, Slovenians, Bosnians and others are dying to return and live with the Serbs... Somehow this was a great conspiracy of the west. After 17 years these guys should know better for themselves and see what the west did to them and go and live with their historic brothers- the serbs.
Let's ferget about Albanians for a minute. They have nothing in common with Slavs. they of all ex Yugoslavians have the least reasons to live with serbs.
Why aren't other Slavs going back with Serbs ? because they tried it and it was not just ugly. it was "bloody". This is the reason "Thomas from Canada". the reasons for all of the wars in Yugoslavia is the Serbs trying to dominate the other Slavic republics and even worse for Albanians- "trying to clean them up".
It is funny how in the cold war times Yugoslavia was the only country in the eastern block that had the best relation with the west. that helped them to become one of the most prospering countries in the comunist block. Everyone else is going West now and Serbs are going East. I have to tell you.
In a way they are getting what they desreve?!...
"what goes around comes around" - "Thomas the Canadian Serb loving guy"
Both Yugoslavia and USSR remind me of a cemetery: people are dying to get there.
Re:93 and 98
Bob, a very good comment-finally something sensible! It could easily get you into conspiracy theories, which I personally don't have much against. Yugoslavia was stitched together for a certain purpose and a)was broken into pieces when it's existence and functions were overdue OR b)broke apart of its own accord, as the glue didn't hold longer.
The question is who benefits and how.
There are ethnic minorities in Greece of Slavic origin. You will find the same kind of minorities even in Albania. There are reasons for why these groups are silent or maybe I shall say "silenced" ...
Other than that as someone already mentioned before, why should Western countries hold any moral authority over deciding the fate of Kosovo?
To Mirek Kondracki: My point was that Italy would have droped out of the NATO air war. And that would have been enough. Other than that USA does not like to do wars alone B2's or other fancy weapons. By the There is allways the need for a COALITION OF THE WILLING. By the way, Yugos did shoot down one of these invisible planes.
And no, I do not wish to live in Iran. I am happy in Canada and I have earned it too. Why don't you go live in Poland or China or Turkey.
To ADI: Yes I love the Serbs and I love the Albanians too. What matters is justice and not the bleeting of the supposedly opressed interest groups.
International law is there to protect all not only the Serbs. If you want to change the borders of one state then you must agree to change the borders of all other states that have ethnic conflict. You can't pick and choose at will. Albanians of Kossovo were offered a far reaching autonomy. They should accept.
I am fully convinced that Kosova will be independent in the near future and for that some of these postings don't make much sense.
It is clear that there are a large number of people who are against independence and rightfully so but the arguments that are brought up don't apply to the situation in Kosova:
precedent for other countries, ie Cyprus, come on they have been melting for the last 40 years and nothing happened when Bosnia became independent.
muslim country - not are the Albanians not religious but the reason the muslim belief is strong is because of the pressure by the Orthodox Serbs as sign of resistance.
two albanian countries - why not there are 50 U.S states, 7 Canadian provices, there is England, Wells, Ireland all english countries etc.
Anyway, I didn't put much though and time on this since no matter what you read or see you will never change your position, as I will never change mine, Kosova should be independent and that is the only way, what happens after shouldn't be Serbian issue.
Have a good new year and less hate.
Ed Rusi.
U.S
Serbia is offering Kosovo almost complete autonomy only stopping short of foreign affairs and formal independence. Given that Serbia is today a democratic state (the Serbs toppled Milosevic, remember) there is no reason doubt this.
Instead of pushing for a solution (independence) which will only bring renewed conflict and set a bad precendent for other ethnically divided countries (remember Bosnia?) the EU should focus on guaranteeing Kosovo's rights as an autonomous region (but one that's formally part of Serbia) rather than on how to slice up a European country.
Isn't it interesting that putinesque Russia, which stauchly opposes an independence for Kosovars, trains and arms Abkhasian and S. Ossetian "separatists" in Georgia?
Obviously some animals are more equal than others. ;-)
My brother just went to Checkoslovakia recently for a few days on vacation. Says some bars in Prague are still playing 90s hits such as "Baby dont hurt me, no more". We laughed at it yet it is a potent footnote to the fact that many Eastern European societies and elites seem to be kind of stuck in the 90s... In fact, the whole liberal democracy versus outdated communism thing seems long dead in the water,
while human rights and prosperity are being distributed around the world in many fun new ways as mr. Fukuama is a little bit too busy eating his shorts and Saakashvili asks himself again, "what would Putin do?".
Fact is, after Europeans and Americans will end up amicably sorting out their disagreements with resurgent Russia (missiles, kosovo, etc...) the Putin haters will be left in the cold, which is the usual fate of over-zealous ideologues. The real question is: 20 years down the road, what can Eastern EU countries (and Kosovo) offer to the world market that China can't? Counting on un-market-like protectionism, are we? Of course, there is a light at the end of the tunnel: smarter ones, like Donald Tusk, seem to be catching up to the message. The guy is supposed to be going to Russia at some point I think.
For some of us, being stuck in the 90s might be a sweet place to be, but for those who moved on to the new reality that whole mantra is just kind of... boring.
Kosovo, just like Quebec, Basque, Abhasia or Ireland,
must proceed through careful, internationally observed, long and thoughtful negotiations with Belgrade. History teaches that decades, not months
of peaceful negotiations are the best remedy here.
Happy 2008 New Year! 2008!
"My brother just went to Checkoslovakia recently for a few days on vacation." [#107]
What?! Czechoslovakia is back??!
When did that happen?!
And who voted for it?
I thought that all Czech and Slovak Commies who wanted to stay within this artificial Moscow-controlled entity (not unlike Yugoslavia or USSR) are hiding in Serbia or escaped to Canada?
"And now for something completely different":
Like, perhaps, a v. peculiar situation and status of Moldova, formally independent, but in practice a crime-ridden bantustan still occupied by Sov...err... Russian troops?
["I'm back in the USSR. You don't know how happy you are, boy! Back in the US, back in the US, back in the US....SR"]
A-ha! "Checkoslovakia" is finally noticed. Took a few days though - interesting and even indicative perhaps... USSR became Russia, USA is losing power, Fukuama is eating his shorts, but some of us still linger in the past, grasping at intellectual straws as they try to use old ideological anchors in a complex, brave new world.
Funny-Moldova is considered rather "pro-western" in Russia. Maybe that's why it is crime-ridden, kind of like Ukraine or Georgia, where about 70.000 people demonstrated against the crime-ridden president the other day. Ukraine is probably next (anybody heard of Julia's new great banking idea?), and who knows what will happen to Checkoslovakia (oops!) in the next 10-15 years. On another subject, anybody seen a video of Bush having his watch stolen when performing a mass-handshake with Kosovars during his visit? I wander if it is a real one, one can never tell... I hope Kosovars will live in peace with Serbs after all.
I think the watch was stolen in Georgia. Let's be fair to the Kossovars.
Yah, the commies and reactionaries of EE are bunkered down in the New World.
The Polish meat will be sold now in Russia. Shows you the wisdom of the Polish ellectorate.
I wonder what the future of the missile deffense shield will be.
Happy New year all.
Re #109 and #110 as per watch theft.
1)from the memoires of a Cracow citizen:
"April 2nd, 1945. Today, on Karmelicka Street I saw first Russian liberator. I managed to buy myself another wristwatch only 5 years later."
2.Soon after 1968 invasion of Czechoslovakia an obviously outraged Czech citizen shows up at a police station in Hradec Kralove and cries:
-Comrade captain, comrade captain!
A moment ago a Swiss soldier has stolen my fabulous Russian watch!
-Wait a sec and calm down, comrade!
You obviously wanted to report that a moment ago a RUSSIAN soldier has stolen your fabulous SWISS watch?!
-YOU said that, comrade captain, not me!
3. In 1979, just after Christmas, an Afghan citizen encounters a SPETZNAZ para in a Kabul street and asks curiously:
-It it true that Russian watches are better than Swiss ones?
Of course -answers the liberator proudly.
- They are also hand-made but run even faster!
4. In 2007, on Christmans Eve, a Georgian citizen bumbs into a Russian GRU "instructor" in Abkhazia...
5. On January 16, 2008 a British Council English teacher in Yekaterinburg...
Eh! Too many watches (and not only watches) stolen, too many lives wasted, too many useful idiots, so little time...
I wonder when will western countries learn the lessons?! As someone mentioned the double standards are the only standards that the west knows and implements at this moment.
Kurds are terrorists, Palestinians are terrorists, Basqs are terrorists but the Albanians are freedom fighters! They鈥檝e started the attacks and the war in Kosovo and than they came as refugees in Macedonia (300 000). In less than two years they came back to Macedonia but they came as 鈥渇reedom fighters鈥 that will help to their 鈥渙ppressed鈥 brothers. By the way their 鈥渙ppressed鈥 Albanian brothers in Macedonia have University in Albanian, they have TV stations, newspapers, advantage in the state Universities (as minority), advantage when applying for Government jobs etc. After the conflict under pressure from the western countries we have made 鈥淥hrid agreement鈥 where the rights of the Albaninas were increased, but it seems that was not enough鈥..At this moment they are asking for pensions for the terrorists that fought against Macedonia!? From mid of December up to now two Macedonian police officers were killed in ambush and one 70 years old Macedonian male in a village with Albanian majority. This has been done by the Albanian 鈥渇reedom鈥 fighters that west is protecting鈥.don鈥檛 worry they will knock on your doors soon (trafficking, drugs, weapons, muslim radicalism鈥.) Serbia and Macedonia are just transit, 鈥測ou鈥 are the final destination.
Bob or I should say Bobopulus? I am Macedonian from Greece. Open google and search if you want to learn more. During the citizen war in Greece 30000 Macedonians were expelled from Greece and today they we arenot allowed to go back. part of my family is still there of corse under Greek names or they will never find job or even worst end up in jail. Yes I know it's hard to believe what is going on in one of the EU countries. Do you know that the land of half of Solun (Thessalonica) belongs to the expelled Macedonians??? By the way there is court case in Europe in this. Do you know how much will Greece have to pay to these people if recognizes them??? I need a lot of space to explain some things to you...fortunately there is internet open and read. Read articles from OSCE, Helsinki comity, CIA, statements from Macedonians in Greece etc.
Re #109 and #110 as per watch theft.
1. From the memoires of a Cracow citizen:
"April 2nd, 1945. Today, on Karmelicka Street I saw first Russian liberator. I managed to buy myself another wristwatch only 5 years later."
2. Soon after 1968 invasion of Czechoslovakia an obviously outraged Czech citizen shows up at a police station in Hradec Kralove and cries:
-Comrade captain, comrade captain!
A moment ago a Swiss soldier has stolen my fabulous Russian watch!
-Wait a sec and calm down, comrade!
You obviously wanted to report that a moment ago a RUSSIAN soldier has stolen your fabulous SWISS watch?!
-YOU said that, comrade captain, not me!
3. In 1979, just after Christmas, an Afghan citizen encounters a SPETZNAZ para in a Kabul street and asks curiously:
-It it true that Russian watches are better than Swiss ones?
Of course -answers the liberator proudly.
- They are also hand-made but run even faster!
4. In 2007, on Christmans Eve, a Georgian citizen bumbs into a Russian GRU "instructor" in Abkhazia...
5. On January 16, 2008 a British Council English teacher in Yekaterinburg...
No, I think I'll stop here. Too many watches (and not only watches) stolen, too many lives wasted, too many useful idiots, so little time...
Ha, the watch thing - It was in Albania to be sure.
Of course, it's kind of funnier then all other occurences of stolen watches because of the presidential context - it shows not only poverty and strife but a kind of a brazen and careless agressivity, an omnivore indifference and opportunism - which includes the watch of the president, if he happens to be passing by. Indeed, I mentioned the incident in order to comment on the true nature of the pro-American attitude of the region, the key word being "opportunism". Not more, not less. Well, its also outrageously funny, there's that too I admit.
Now, I wouldn't compare that to the spoils of war of course but then again... you can keep your watch and march happily to Treblinka or someplace like that.
Of all poverties, intellectual one is often most amusing -
I guess that is the main point here my friends, we finally arrived!
Please people, some of you are making complete idiots out of themselves with their comments.
Read some history books before you make a comment. Pride is one thing and reality is something completely different. Kosovo was NEVER a genuine part of Serbia. Do a simple research in internet and you will find all the facts you need to make proper and sane comments.
I am not taking sides here, but being an educated man it insults my intelligence to read some stupid comments.
Nobody can compare Kosova case with other cases. It鈥檚 quite different and quite special. Nobody can argue on something that is not experienced and most of all without the proper information. Kosova was never a genuine part of Yugoslavia and more ever of Serbia. 100 Years don鈥檛 make history. It鈥檚 too few to forget. Kosovo has been a part of Albania and populated with Albanians. 100鈥000 Serbs don鈥檛 make population they are just 鈥済uests鈥. The only thing that is done in this case is the right thing to correct something wrong that is done before a centenary. And the last thing: Serbia is democratized. Yes! After the NATO bombarding and after the Kosova State is created.
It has nothing to do with Independence (freedom etc).
It's all about money & power.
Nuclear weapons in IRAK!!!
100$ the barrel /oil..
Weapons, bombs...
Someone is making money!!!
But please explain. Why should i pay????
Kosovo, Baskien, N.Ireland, Scotland, Belgium, Kurdistan, Palestina.
Welcome to the new order!!!!!