Fascinating Turkey
Thank you all for your comments. Yes, Dr Okcay, I am learning all the time and I do find Turkey one of the most fascinating and enjoyable places on my beat. Turkish food... well I'll post a holiday blog on food in a couple of weeks and have more to say then. "Yum," will do for now.
This is my third trip, for work, to Turkey and I do hope I understand more, not only with every visit but with every conversation. This blog is part of that. I hope you all get something out of it, but I most certainly do. I have read every single comment and nearly every one helps me understand a point of view.
Although, a general reminder: I can and will answer specific points but not windy abuse. That's why I can't do as Betula Nelson requests - I can't find a single substantial point to respond to.
There have been many posts complaining that I, or the 91Èȱ¬, use "Islamist" or "Islamic" to describe the AKP. I think the "Don't stick labels on us" plea is understandable but we need labels to talk meaningfully about politics and history. And remember my job is to write mainly for an audience in Britain, who may not have a clue what the parties are and what they stand for.
I know some colleagues do use "Islamist" and they regard it as accurate. For myself, I feel "Islamic" simply describes a religion, while "Islamist" means political Islam with a radical agenda, and is usually pejorative in the West. I would describe the AKP as having "Islamist roots", but otherwise wouldn't use the word in connection with them. It's clear others do think they are Islamist, but I think that is part of the argument, open to debate. I have sympathy with the "Muslim Democrat" point made by Ronald Kramer and it may be that over time we end up with something like that if the AKP's behaviour supports this interpretation. I have drawn parallels with Christian Democrats here and in broadcasts. But "Muslim Democrat" does come down on one side of the debate, as the AKP's opponents keep saying the party will get off the democratic tram when it reaches its destination, using an old quote from Erdogan. Many say we should simply drop the religious label. I think this is a polemical point, not objective.
It is not possible for a couple of reasons. Firstly, for the general British audience, one of the interesting things about this story is that a party with religiously devout leaders is governing Turkey. Secondly it's at the centre of the argument in Turkey itself. Read Kerem Erikin, who says the AKP's mentors are the Taleban. Those who support this point of view wouldn't say that the party leaders' religion is unimportant.
Secondly the army... I think I do have a better understanding of the view that the army is a balancing force. But it is valid to question whether it is compatable with democracy.
Lit makes a good point. For journalistic shorthand one has to write "The army thinks" just as I'd write "The Labour Party believes" while knowing that within both institutions there is a range of views and complex relations between differing power structures. Trouble is, with an institution like the Turkish army it's impossible for an outsider to gain much insight.
It's one of the challenges of modern journalism to scrutinise closed organisations with as much care as open, democratic ones, whether they are big corporations, insurgent movements or powerful armies, but it's obviously not easy. Thank you all again.
I hope you like the pictures, which were taken by our cameraman Tom Vantorre.
I’m Mark Mardell, the 91Èȱ¬'s North America editor. These are my reflections on American politics, some thoughts on being a Brit living in the USA, and who knows what else? My 
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Fantastic pictures!
Mark,
The subject of Turkey is, indeed, fascinating - but also irrelevant to 'European affairs' as there is but a snowball's chance in hell of it joining the EU in the next decade or two.
Howabout you come home and discuss with us the more immediate concern that faces UK citizens: the so-called 'Reform Treaty' which contains - as admitted by many EUrophiles - the same contents as the rejected Constitutional Treaty, but with a different wrapping.
Are we going to let this slip through without a referendum?
My bet is, that in a few years time a consensus can and will be reached on the term Muslim-Democrat. (The general opinion in Turkey is already rapidly shifting towards the term Centre-right.)
For the time being, I think your point is correct, about using the Islamic label.
I read your article with interest. As an American(a New Yorker, in fact) with many Turkish friends, I have begun to understand the complexities of the Turkish people and of Turkey. The most important factor was understanding that Turks rely on the military. Most Turkish men have served, for at least a time, in the Army. The Turish Army is the balance between Islamists and secularists. All of my friends here in the States, admittedly not supporters of AKP, have unanimously cited to the military as the force keeping their worries and concerns in check.
What surprises me is the way the EU continually turns its back on a country that has such a strong growing economy, and such a huge population. Like ostriches sticking their head in the sand, Europe seems to think that Turkey will disappear if Europe doesn't let them join their club. Some 70-odd milllon Turks are not going to slink away and disappear simply because the EU won't play with them.
The EU's silly refusal to accept Turkey only forces Turkey, and its Islamist governmnent, to turn to countries that will accept them, such as Iran or other militantly Islamist countries. What choice does Turkey have? It has to feed the mouths of its young, growing population.
The other issue confusing to me is that while the EU strongly supported Erdogan and the AKP, it fears the fact that Turkey is mainly Muslim. Instead of embracing the educated Turks as a means of learning how to relate to the European Muslim population, Europe continues to make the same mistakes with what will be even more disastrous results. Turkey has a very young population, all of whom are going to need jobs. By closing the door to Turkey, or making Turkey jump through humiliating hoops, Europe only exacerbates the situation already existing among European Muslim commmunities.
I agree with my Turkish friends that the AKP must be closely watched. I also agree with them that a great deal is riding on Erdogan's selection of a President. That selection could unsettle the precarious truce between the AKP and the opposition parties. While Turks may have voted with their pocketbooks and wallets for the PM and Parliament, it does not mean that is the same factor Turks want as a main consideration for the all-important President.
As for Turkish food,I agree it is fantastic.
As an American, I wish Turkey well and hope that someday the main thing we discuss when we talk about Turkey will be its wonderfully smart, friendly people, beautiful sights, remarkable history and not its religion.
I am a bit surprised by your statement that you are writing "mostly for a British audience". 91Èȱ¬news is, after all, part of "91Èȱ¬World Service" which is a British institution speaking to the world. Or have I got it wrong for 60 years ?
Dear Mark,
(I'm a former Guardian and 91Èȱ¬ WS journalist and a Commission official for 30 years and was EU ambassador to Turkey 1991-98 and to Hungary 1998-2001, now retired so I listen a lot. I'm also probably the only British ex-journalist left alive who covered the vetoed Heath negotiations 61-63.)
NOW: Sunday/Monday's 91Èȱ¬ reporting seemed obsessive in its reporting of Turkey in every introduction as Islamist, or with Islamic roots, etc. Not only I, but many friends in Turkey and back here, regard this label as now out of date and almost prejudicial to the point of pandering to alrmist views of the opposition party, the CHP, which many Turks, including former ministers, think has gone off its traditional social democratic rails.
In fact, you in your broadcast on Sunday or Monday am were the first 91Èȱ¬ man I have heard starting to try gently to wean your colleagues off the label Islamist, which means opting for the shariah, which no party in Turkey and very few people indeed (perhaps 7%)want, a bit like our UKIP flat earthers. Why not, if you must label tham in a religious way, call them the Muslim party (which in fact they are not...only being more pious or devout although many of them and masses of their voters are not so, and drink heartily [and have designated raki as the national beverage in order to try to avoid some EU consumption tax or other]).
And while I am at it, the 91Èȱ¬ has for years mis-pronouced the famous Turkish footy team GALATASARAY as GalaTASaray, which is like saying BuckingHAMpalace or TaramaSALata, or BirMING'am The correct pronunciation to lay the strees equally on all syllables, and two separate words, viz:
Galata Saray (i.e. Galata Palace).
To the millions who know how this team, and even more important how the big shopping, educational and diplomatic area of Istanbul is properly pronounced, the ubiquitous 91Èȱ¬ version is laughably ignorant. (You even had an analyst yesterday persistently mispronouncing Erdogan's name.)
Cheers
ML
The Army is the only guarantor of Turkey staying a secular country, there is no way a scarf or hijab wearing wife of the president can stay at the presidential palace where Ataturk once lived. If Turkey becomes islamic it will be a blow to the country's bright future.
Thanks for this entry end wonderful pictures. Elections in Turkey are over and this is a time of transitions in politics and policy in Turkey. The Justice and Development Party (AKP) won a major victory. The reasons for this victory can be analysed in tens of pages. Let us focus on one single question: ‘What is next in Turkish politics?’. Good question. What is the answer?
For the most western observers the Turkey’s election was about a clash between secular elites and moderate Islamism in Turkey (see TIME, Turkey's Dilemma, where Turkey is described as an divided country between secularists and moderate islamists). Of course this ideological perspective was the easiest way to understand and to show what is going on in Turkey. However, they missed the point that the key question for the most of the Turkish electorates is the Turkish economy and prosperity in the country. The situation of the Turkish economy has been a powerful driver in election campaigns and AKP’s victory. The opposition parties was not able to deliver substantial issues and proposals, as the AKP successfully dominated debates on economy and social issues. Turkish people wanted to have continuity instead of a new adventure.
Thank you Mark for grappling with Turkish politics, food, culture and religion.
For anyone who wants to learn more about the Kurdish issue in Turkey please feel free to browse my many pages at
Thank you to Michael Lake. Your sentiments are a perfect compliment to this most recent blog by Mark Mardell. I enjoy the pictures and I appreciate your intentions and straight-on attitude about reading all of our feedback and replying to it to the best of your abilities. I also love that you are taking time to bring Turkey into some kind of light.
However, at this point in time in the world -- when it has become so small through travel -- and on a news service that features so much diversity in language and wide-ranging coverage as bbc WORLD news, I don't think the issue you face as a journalistic ‘authority’ on Turkey is one about drawing straws as a British person writing to a British audience. This expressed idea in and of itself is a shock to many readers no doubt because I like many others found your blog on the front page of the world news service.
I think opening this issue involves thinking of recent history and the resultant western grudges and their manifestations (and I don’t expect that many paid professional journalists will be able to do this); the importance of secular, relatively peaceful and reasonable nation-states in the Middle East; the scope of the 91Èȱ¬ news service; the experience and travel history of your readership and the respect owed to Turks and Turkey at this time by news services that are supposed be less than biased.
You’re right, this is a complicated issue.
If what is being written in this latest installment is true, then all of the future installments of this blog and of 91Èȱ¬ articles (even if sprinkled with speculation) should be prefaced with the notion that they are promoting the status quo of Western elitism (nobody brings it up in a formal way that leaders in Western nations are deeply rooted in a politically-based Christian club ideology and are far more deserved of such a term as Christianists fundamentalists -- even if they don’t practice, there is a mentality at play here that hedges out other peoples of the world and has done so for centuries), and are thus biased and one-sided.
I am sorry to be so frank, and it's not all aimed at Mark Mardell because he surely expresses a familiar yet enlightened train of thought for Brits. But it's really hard when you have so many Turkish friends, have been to the country and have experienced the sophistication and successes of people in the midst of such media bashing and outright political double standards.
Hi Mark,
Great job on your Turkish election coverage. Thanks to your blog, I've gained a deeper understanding on how Turkey functions and thinks.
I can understand how many fear a party based in Islamic principles might try to impose some kind of Islamic state. However I fail to see how the AKP can succeed doing such a thing by reforming and adopting EU law. I think once Turkey reforms and joins the EU, the likelihood of it becoming an Islamic state will be the same as any current EU country becoming a fascist dictatorship.
The EU was initially founded as a guarantor against war. It then became a way for countries to anchor themselves to liberal democratic principles. I think this is what the majority of the Turkish people want. It's a bit of an Ostrich mentality when people say that Turkey is irrelevant to 'European Affairs'. Europe's current big challenge is extremism (be it religious or nationalist). It would be a big victory for the good guys (non extremists) if Turkey succeeds in reforming and joining the EU. It would show the Muslim world that their religion is not incompatible with liberal values. This would be a big blow to Muslim Fundamentalists.
Thomas Patricio
Toronto Canada
re:Max Sceptic. You should all understand that Europe is not only about Western Europe, or UK. EEC may or may not accept Turkey in, but no one can say Turkey has no place in Europe. When one talks about Eastern-southern Europe, you simply cannot ignore Turkey unless your colonialistic views are your hidden agenda and targetted now on Balkans.
re: Mark and Laura Colatrella: Before the election, there were crowds on streets shouting against Erdogan, or Gul; 90% of the journalists on Turkish media wrote on their articles that they were going to vote for CHP or MHP (dorduncukuvvetmedya.com).
They spoke to many people on streets, and of course concluded that AKP would lose the election very badly. No one asked my opinion, and I wouldn't say it even if I;d been asked? That's us, we, Turks are generally not very outspoken indeed.
Army are said to compose of officials who voted for CHP, and they oppose AKP. Well, Turkish Army does not consist of brain-washed soldiers for sure, and this country is not run by BAAS regime. Young students when chosen to become the army officers of future are not chosen from a particular ethnic group, unlike to the situation in Syra, or Tunus. Thus, Turkish Army is not very much different than Turkish people. Turkish army is as democratic as Turkish people, and actually is always a good sample of Turkish public voice. If there are people on streets who do not respect democracy, than Armyfeel it hould be their voice as well. I embraces all sorts of people. If TUrkish people do not like to talk much, than the same rule applies to Turkish army.
At North there, you only can hear who shouts more in south here in Turkey. You perhaps also can hear the some Turks around you.
You do not hear the real voice of Turkey. I urge all of you not to mislead your own people about my country. I reckon many of you should shut your mouths up until you spend some enough time to understand what even our media could not understand for over 70 years. I recommend you learn the Turkish language and talk to people on streets. I believe more your attention is focussed on Turkey, old rivalries will be forgotten, and both sides of Europe will unite for the first time after the division of Roman Empire.
Turks are very different than all those countries and peoples that you accuse them to be terrorist or fundamantalist islamists. You do not need to be afraid of Turkey, because Turkey was the only Muslim country which was not colonised and thus have no revenge issue with Western Europe. We fought many times, but they were all fair wars, and We, Turks respect that fact, and expect to be treated with some respect, as well.
re:Mark. You really need to send more people here from 91Èȱ¬ and stay for a longer time next time. Turkish food is best eaten at turkish homes not at fancy touristic restaurants.
Dear Tom,
Actually you mentioned one Turkish person who talks about Taleban as Tayyip Erdogan because he is one of the anti-Islamic,anti-democrat minority (we call "Alevi") If you ask him or some others like him maximum %10 of Turkish.They are living without Islam...Even they say we are Muslims they don't go to Mosques...They created different kind of religious stuff which can't be explained by holy way.
So,please try to learn Turkey position.Turkey is maybe the only one democratic country who is not only Muslim but also respectful to any other religions.On the other hand,91Èȱ¬ should be Objective...You should say the reality what AK Party is...AK Party is a democratic citizen party.It can't have and doesn't have any religious idea and ideology.Please correct your messages.You are directing not Turkish but foreign people in wrong direction.Then they say okey you are from Turkey,you are dangerous...This is not the reality.
Mr Mardell,
Many will not admit you this, but this election was a big shock to us opposed to the AKP. We are back to square one, our leaders will not retire, and we are all disappointed.
To be honest, AKP has done an immense job while they were governing. They have governed Turkey like it should have been governed for the last 25 years. They have realized the potential of Turkey.
However, that single issue is what it all comes down to: The first lady's religious headscarf. Today Gul ponders about standing for the presidency again.
I will be honest here, it disgusts me to even think about Turkey's president's wife wearing a headscarf. She is the first lady, the face of the Turkish woman, the woman that represents Turkey. For that person to be wearing a religious headscarf is to doom this country.
Imagine her going to NATO meetings, to official visits in Europe or US, raising an apple juice while everyone else raises champaigne... It is emberassing. She does all of that right now, but her title is the ruling party's foreign minister's wife. But as the president's wife her responsibility is to be inclusive of all the country, and contrary to popular myth, the religious headscarf she supports is worn by a very fanatical %20 of the population.
Europeans and Americans ask naively why it matters if a woman wears a headscarf in public places. They are allowed in the west, so why would it matter if it happens in Turkey. Some go as far as to suggest that if Turkey wants to be a true democracy, that it should let anyone wear anything anywhere. What they don't seem to understand is that if AKP somehow manages to elect a president with a religious headscarved wife, it would amount to a counter-revolution in Turkey. This is the threat we face: the survival of our republic.
-
On a side note, while you seem to ponder about what to label AKP, we on the other camp are also dismayed by labels. We have been called "secularists", "secular elites", "elitists" etc. As if somehow we are this small privilaged group of snobbish rich people, ridiculing this new class because we are the old guard of some oligarchy. This is very insulting, and very far from the truth. Our camp includes a very diverse group of people, including the majority of people who voted for the AKP. If Turkey's seculars were down to %20, this country would already be under a theocracy.
Thanks for your blog and hope your insights have cleared a lot of misconceptions outside of Turkey.
so its true then, bbc world is really a local station for retired colonial types who want to remember the good old days in whateveristan. I`m crushed. I`ve been relying on the world service and its more recent sister station to provide me with up to date news for 28 years as I travelled and worked world wide, but back to the topic. I have been working in France on and off for the past six years.It is a country that i really like and yet I can see the glaring problems and feel outrage at the corruption and two faced attitude of the government.Is france a democracy? yes of sorts. Before that I worked in the U.S., Mexico, Italy and so on.I can say with absolute conviction that I like all these countries but with reservations. I am Irish by birth and citizenship and I can definately say that this small seemingly simple country bewilders me every day. Why should turkey be any different? Having said that lets agree that as foreigners we may be hampered by difficulties with a language and confused by a culture which is quite different to our own, but we should not think for a minute that it is a christian vs islam view point. Why is it that europeans see no difference between Iran and Pakistan or Egypt and Turkey other than the degree of political Islam in each country? Are we blind to the obvious and profound cultural differences which inform these places and peoples? Try seeing Turkey as a country of 1000 layers, imagine the continuous history that pervades the air. Listen to the old songs or the old poetry, eat the food, oh the food........... M If you go to Mardin and you want dinner try cercis murat konagi, its incredible, and stop on the corner of lower main street in the old town for some great bread. For me Turkey is to be found in the hills around Akkus or the mesopotamian plain as much as in Ankara or Izmir and when I hear someone say that Istanbul is not turkey just as new york is not america I have to ask which istanbul? Sure Baddat street is international and expensive but go four blocks and see what you find, and remember the best food market in the city is in kadikoy, cheek by jowl with the starbucks and the gucci store. Mr Erdogan was mayor of Istanbul not sivas(no slight intended to sivas) and the ak party took the majority of the seats here also. I returned to turkey for the 12th time this past spring and spent a very short month. in that time i visited the north and east as well as ankara and antalya, in the company of some great Turkish friends who never tired of my questions, never failed to translate the answers I was given and were unfailingly honest with me. I met students and teachers working on community projects in Mardin, drama students performing in a festival in Ankara,food scientists working on organic production methods in Antalya and tourism graduates, on their first postings,in Izmir. Everywhere the message was the same, sure there are problems but with education and an increase in quality of life things will improve and change, and it was the word change that I encountered most. No fear, moving forward, creating change. It strikes me that while we watch the ak party and to a lesser extent the other parties, dance the political polka, we are missing the tidal wave of change that is sweeping through the nation. Mr Erdogan reminds me a little of Mr Blair, wanting to preserve some sense of ethics and moral decency in society, what we used to call civics, while encouraging prosperity and supporting democracy, is this so wrong? People can mutter about sharia and head scarves all they want, the real threat to the turkish way of life will come from westernstyle consumerism and the pursuit of the "dream" lifestyle which is being hyped in the turkish media. If you dont believe me look at the advertising on turkish tv, watch the soap operas which are a staple of most households or better yet sit on baddat street sipping a latte and just watch. Oh and do me a favour? As mentioned in another post, could you do something about pronounciation on the bbc? It really is a joke. thanks, and please blog on, I love your take on life.
Mark
Turkey's role in modern European politics is still being defined. That is why any political action in this amazing country is scrutinised in as much detail as former Kremlinologists followed the Politburo in Soviet times.
Having moved from the UK to Istanbul and knowing a number of Turkish people, it fascinates me to see how a supposedly religious political party can win votes in a secular democracy. I think primarily "it's the economy, stupid" but there is a nagging doubt in a lot of people's minds about the real agenda AKP may or may not have.
I'm not sure if you saw the article in The Times on 24th July by Amir Taheri called "A Very Turkish Coup?". This seems to be the reply the CHP voters have been looking for but which their party never eloquently advanced. For how long should voters trust a party in power despite the strength of the economy? When is it time to put democracy in action and change the governing party? If you read that article, you would believe the AKP is introducing an agenda in the same way the Nazis did - by stealth. Creeping Islamic/Muslim/Islamist reforms will reach a tipping point which will undoubtedly involve the military.
At a stroke, the vibrant foreign investment (the reason I'm here in the first place) will dry up and goodness knows what direction the country will head in. As for EU aspirations, they will disappear as fast as the military's intervention in politics.
From what I see for now, I believe the AKP is running a very crafty gameplan - doing the domestic reforms in the economy, justice system, freedom of speech; making all the right gestures to get into the EU; but in the background quietly making Turkey a more comfortable state for Muslims. Credit to the party masterplanners but will they be the architects of their own demise?
One curious feature of the election - what happened to the Young Party in a demographically relatively young nation? If the Pensioners Party can win seats in Israel, isn't it time young people pushed their message forward with greater vigour??
For now, I'm happily living on the Bosphorus coastline, my local bars and restaurants are full, women are baring arms and legs for summer, clean-shaven men are in shorts and all seems well in this European terminus. Will I be writing the same in 4 years time?
I am glad you are enjoying your visits to Turkey, it is one of those places where you can go and thoroughly enjoy your stay, contrary to popular european belief. It is a fascinating country full of well educated and friendly people many of whom I would describe as european. I see them arrive in Dalyan for their holidays and I find it difficult to tell the difference. It is about time that europe stops the bad press and bad pr about Turkey and realise that the Turkish people are much the same as you,me and many of your readers.
I think Mr. Murat Kara's comment above demonstrates what is at stake regarding human rights in Turkey.
He argues that (and rightly he is a minority) that he "would be disgusted to see a women choosing to wear a headscarf as the wife of the President". Notice that it is not the president, but it's the intolerance toward, and rather naive, argument against freedom of choice.
Why the headscarf is still seen as an 'inferiority' on part of this rather 'secularist' minority, has a lot to do with the inferiority complex in Turkey. Namely, yes I say it, that "religion is backward and that all religious style ought be banished from public spaces, so we can be modern and European."
Unfortunately that has been the rather limited outlook of the secularist ideology in Turkey, that has nothing to do with secularism but rather a Stalinist atheism.
Mr. Mardell in his earlier posts of his interview with retired generals in Turkey acknowledged the following, which is rather true, in this context as well.
It is a Leninist project that argues that: in order to "enlighten" people we are going to be "against" the people, for the "people".
This is the bottom-line logical argument why people who choose to wear headscarf are banned to attend higher education: "in order to 'enlighten' the women, we shall ban the women attending the university, who want to be enlightened by education"
Yes, that is the unfortunate cyclical logic that governs the mindset of a minority, yet powerful, especially in Turkish bureaucracy. And yes it is very authoritarian, and yes it is Leninist.
Like Lenin's argument on the 'vanguard party', such a minority too has a party: "republican people's party", which displays the exact same logic mentioned above: "in order to 'save' the people we shall oppress the people, until they understand that they are being 'saved'."
Mr. Mardell's earlier engagement with the retired old generals, comes to agree with what I said.
Sincerely,
I'm glad you liked Turkey. I'm quite proud of our country and our food, which, while quite fatty, is very yummy.
Turks are very keen on improving our "look" to European countries. Its understandable for foreign nationals to look down on us because of the current islamophobia trend, but we're not quite like that. I hope you'll visit us again.
AKPs roots might be islamic, but its the only pro-western, EU supporting party we have.
CHP is the party of the judges, the state, the bureaucracy, the soldiers, the academicians and the people who got lost in the pointless secularism rhetoric.
Basically, anyone who get appointed to their offices by the president. They don't want to lose their jobs.
They are the status-quo people; they don't want any change in turkey (even though there are obvious mistakes in the current constitution - the constitution the army spawned in 1980's).
I have a lot of people who vote for CHP, but they all say that they don't want to see CHP in power.
Don't forget that CHP opposed the notion (and even brought it to the constitutional court) that would make Turkish people elect the president.
CHP said that it would be undemocratic (is that even a word) for the people to elect their president. Which is funny at best.
They want an old-guard in the presidential office because they want the "deep state" to stay in place. But they don't have the people's backing. They merged with 3 other parties after 2002 elections (which should have brought their votes to 23%), but they still didn't gain votes.
The only way CHP (and every single one of their supporters) can explain its utter defeat in the elections is the same explanation social darwinists used against africans in 1800's: "They are stupid, we know better and we should teach them by not asking their opinion and forcing our ideas into their thick skulls".
And then they talk about equality, liberties and democracy.
Marc wrote : "From what I see for now, I believe the AKP is running a very crafty gameplan -
doing the domestic reforms in the economy, justice system, freedom of speech; making all the right gestures to get into the EU; but in the background quietly
making Turkey a more comfortable state for Muslims. Credit to the party masterplanners but will they be the architects of their own demise?"
#16 Marc:
Marc, I fully agree with you on AKP’s crafty game plan; It cannot be explained better than you wrote. However I would like to make a distinction between making Turkey more comfortable state for Muslims and making Turkey more comfortable for Political Islamists particularly the Sunnis who are in line with Whabism. Turkey has always been a very comfortable state for Muslims especially Sunnis ,but not so comfortable for Political Islamists until five years ago.
It is true that AKP does not directly and openly target the secular, liberal and democratic principles of the state, but instead they take a small piece out of them when they are changing or making laws, policies and procedures in any area to which a ruling party has the right to touch. These activities are very well masked, therefore undetected by large. Only a number of these activities have been caught by careful and responsible eyes such as the current president of Turkey.
Sometimes even those careful people cannot prevent such laws as the law that reduces the fines and jail term for private religious course owners or managers who teaches that beating women is allowed by the religion, marrying wit 4 women is required by the Quran or killing someone whose crime punishable by death and justified in the Quran and doctrines that against to the pillars of the state. Who would remember the efforts of AKP that pushed a law that makes adultery a punishable crime? Who pays attention that serving alcohol has silently banned all AKP run municipal establishments such as restaurants and cafes? Who notices that most government offices have a room designed as mescid while there are number of mosques nearby of these offices? Do I need to mention the peer pressure from the political islamists who disguise themselves as devout Muslims? The list goes on and on.
The ruling people of AKP repeatedly said that “we should wait until they reach and take over every corner of the current state. This is what they are doing now; taking over each important corner of the republic as sunni-wahabi political islamists disguised in business suits. The AKP sees the following as important places to be “conquered in the given order.
The government
The presidency,
The constitutional court
The High courts (Danistay and Yargitay)
The military
The High Education Council
The government part is done, and the presidency is the next one now; what is the fierce fight over the presidency, why AKP cannot agree on someone who is a devout muslim but has no roots in political Islam? The answer is simple; the AKP needs someone who is political Islamists, a devout Muslim would not do the job they need.
What I believe that AKP’s founders would like to convert the Turkish republic into a religious state in which the sheria is applied. As long as one stays in the sheria law, which is very open to interpretation and depends on the interpreter, can do whatever he/she wants. I believe that this is the understanding of liberalism, democracy and secularism of the people who rules the AKP.
I will keep my conviction that AKP has hidden agenda and I will resists to it until I am proven wrong.
I disagree with the term Muslim democrat. We will all see in a few years that no such thing exists. The reason why western world thinks AKP had brought more democracy and freedom to Turkey is simply because of the fact that they made many resources of Turkey available to western imperialism (natural resources, land, etc..).
This doesn't change the fact that Erdogan even sued (after heavily insulting him on television) a farmer who complained about his living conditions (he got a jail sentence). He also sued caricaturists and journalists. It looks like as long as AKP continues to be nice to Europe and USA, they will be supported, which I completely understand.
The other thing I want to mention is 91Èȱ¬'s selection of wording like "Kurdish Struggle" "Kurdish Territory" etc.. There is no such territory in Turkey - which is a unitary state and is not organized based on race or ethnicity. Also there is no Kurdish Struggle, there is only PKK terrorism. We have seen Kurds being organized and used for imperialist goals of the west (especially UK) in history many times, and I'm afraid we are seeing similar efforts these days. Of course, the response to these efforts will be the same as before.
Overall I don't think the series was written objectively nor reflected the realities of Turkey. The dividing lines are becoming more obvious and AKP supporters are still less than 50% of population. Turkish military is still the most trusted institution in Turkey and we will all see what they will do to settle the situation. Those who doubt that should read recent Turkish history.
Being pious and force to be pious is two diferrent things. Muslim, cristian,jewes and athaist can be pious what they belive for. Respecting to this own belief called democracy. A country leader also can be pious for what he belive. But what he shouldn't do is force to others on what he belive. this leader can be athaist, or cristian the logic is same. If there is freedem for woman what ever she can wear, why woman can not use a headscarf. in turkey there is no objection for drink alkohol, no objection for wearing small peace of cloth. hope all people clever to undersand what dimocracy is.
AK party has been the most successfull gevernment in terms of economy and the growth of Turkey in recent years. They have strong beliefs in their religion, but this does not in any way affect their ability to govern the country. Religion and politics are very separate entities and should be kept apart. The idea that a party who are attached to their religious beliefs are bad for a country is against the very democratic understanding of the european countries. This whole concept of 'islamistic' title is a product of people who are against the success and development of country. These people would like to see Turkey suffer with 100% inflation and to rely on other countries technology and employment opportunities. It is the split and rule ideology of certain people that suggests these titles and force people to think that way. Exactly what is being done in Iraq by creating a Shia and Sunni and split and letting people kill each other while they watch.
Dear Hanna,
Wearing a "head cloth" is free in Turkey and is something many women in rural areas do. It is a part of our national costume. BUT: arabic style of clothing is not free in places where government should be neutral to ALL citizens irresepective of religion or ethnicity. Just like a uniform one would wear in a school. One also would not be able to wear a cross (I am a Christian) and I am very happy about that. I do not feel my rights were eroded and I should shove my cross in the face of everyone. Public should be inclusive. The first issue is that this style of clothing is NOT Turkish. It is a cheap imitation of Arabic Wahabi fundamentalism and as a Turkish I feel uncomfortable to see this as we have nothing in common with Arabs including the interpretation of religion. This style appeared in the last 5-10 years max in Turkey. I am unhappy to see a young girl wearing this suffocating cloth under the sun because her family makes her think she is wearing a traditional cloth. But this is not as important, she is free to wear whatever style as long as not in government ran offices.I do not want to see a judge wearing a cloth that represents Arabic fundementalism judging me. I would not be sure of her neutrality. You would argue men do not have any problem. Yes they do not. Religions have never been fair to women. Men like Gul/Erdogan in Turkey make politics off of their wives.
Mark,
First of all I would like to thank you for working so hard to inform the world about what is going on in Turkey as a neutral news correspondent. By saying neutral, I mean as far as I can see you are "trying" to get rid of the stereotyped thoughts about Turkey and "try" to reflect all aspects of the country with no prejudgement. This is very important for a nation because of all the historical anger from neighbors and all baseless claims about how we do not belong to Europe and how barbarians we are. Please keep your objectivity and think twice when someone puts some blame on Turkish people for any event.
I would like 91Èȱ¬ website to make a presentation why Turkey is so important for other countries and why everyday I can see some news from Turkey on your website. Why is this country so important for Europe, USA, Middle East and iclamic world? People from all over the world, from Canada, Britan, US, India etc. make comments on the issues related to Turkey's internal affairs. But these comments all depend on what they hear from the foreign media which is sometimes under influence of anti-Turkish groups.
While everyday people read news about what is going on in Turkey about Kurdish issues, elections, armenian allegations, army, clashes of different cultures, economy, EU etc. but we do not see these kind of news about other countries. These are naturally mostly internal issues and need to be dealt by Turkish people themselves. Why is everyone from all over the world keep trying to give ideas about what to do or what not to do? As an example, give out land to kurds, accept Armenian so-called genocide, kick army out of democratic issues, stay away from iraq, get out of cyprus etc..
Are we really being too much to the rest of the world or is everyone trying to stop us being "too much"?
As a human being, I have every right to take action against terrorists, to bring prosperity to my people, to bring peace to the Turkish nation. And as a citizen of the Turkish Republic I would expect my armed forces to take every action necessary to do this. Why when a US citizen or British citizen asks this from it's government, it is normal to travel all way around the world to stop terrorism, but my soldiers need permission from the rest of the world? Of course they do not need any permission, I am sure they will act when it's time and show the power of the world's most professional army. But what I would like to know is WHY people are so getting shivers when we say we will do something for ourselves? It is ok to fight in Korea, Bosnia, Somalia, Afghanistan to protect US interests but it is not when we want to protect our own interest. This has never been fair and is never going to be.
Finally, I would ask 91Èȱ¬ to make just one large article with the header "Why is Turkey discussed so much?" and open it for discussion as long as a poll called "How often do you want to hear from Turkey?". I am sure people are also fed up with our problems. Let them deal with their own issues for sometime and put Turkey on your news for vacation alternatives, cause this is what most people are interested about Turkey.
This was a long one I know and I know I am not a journalist (just a naval architect from Antalya-Turkey), I just wanted to express my opinions and personal advices to make people not hate Turkey so much or get the anger and hate a little bit lower...
Let people know better about us, tell them about history, tell them how middle east has lived in peace and prosperity for 500 hundred years, tell them we have not blocked people to worship their own religions, tell them that Haghia Sophia is still standing up as a museum, tell them that Santa Clause was born in south west Turkey, tell them we have ruled the balkans for 300 years, when we left , we left both mosques and churches on those lands together, tell them there is nothing to be scared about us !
Best Regards,
Kerim Tapkan
Antalya - Turkey
Many thanks for your interesting blog Mark.I would like to know if it is true that Turkey has more writers serving jail sentences than any other country in the world (other than China ) ?
Many people seem to think that if the E.U. allows Turkey to join,this will show Muslim countries that `..their religion is not incompatible with liberal values´.Can you forsee a day when, after joining the E.U.,Turkey allows `liberal ´ same-sex unions ?
I for one cannot.Keep up the good work.
Throughout the comments left for Mr. Mardell's blog I have heard numerous arguements in support of Turkey joining the EU. Being a Canadian Citizen of Greek heritage and identity it is unacceptable and dangerous to romance the thought of their membership. In terms of Islam, whether secular or not, their religion does not agree with Europe. In my perspective the EU was formed not only as a political and economic body, but as well as a cultural tool in protecting, preserving and continuing our heritage.
Please list which part of Turkey and Turkish culture that agrees with Europe and in part one could make a list far greater of those aspects that don't.
if truth be told turkey was never part of europe nor will it be part of europe.europe is not a continent with clearly defined boundaries hence the use of eurasia.it is a community that shares a relatively common culture, norms and histories that have strong links with christianity.turkey owes its existence to the religious zeal of jihad that the turkic tribes adopted after converting to islam.hence the enemy at the gates cannot today decide to change his shirt unless he is willing to adopt european values and customs.are islam and western values compatible?
Hi Y'all:
The Westernization in Anatolia started with the foundation of Ottoman Empire. The early Ottomans helped the Byzantines in wars against their eastern and western enemies. They lived in the same villages, married etc. Mehmet II,the Qonqueror is the first Sultan who allowed his mom to practice her Christian religion in the Ottoman Palace, Topkapi where he built a Church for his mom. He posted Bellini's paintings on all of the walls at Topaki. (Can you imagine the Queen is going to a Mosque at Buckingham, that was the equivalent action then). Ottomans took the advantage of feudal divisions in Europe in conquering the land from Europe. They took Hungry in 6 hours. Even today you cannot drive thru in 6 hours. How did they do it: They got the support from the oppressed people.
Abdulmecid is the first Sultan ever visited a country outside Ottoman Empire. He visited England at the time of Queen Victoria. His shoes contained Ottoman soil so that he would not step on Gavur's land ( Gavur means nonMoslim), due to the order of Religious fetva, not because he wanted to walk with these shoes in London.
Now today, Taleban versus AKP. Damn! The guys on this board are forgetting something really important: The Saadet Party, truly religious party but even not with an agenda similar to Taleban got only 2.3% vote. AKP was founded by the same guys departed from the Refah Party which divided to become AKP and Saadet parties. AKP is not a religious party, has become a mainstreet party in Turkey. The founders visit Mosque, but making an analogy between those guys and Taliban is a horrific ignorance of all facts about everything. I would recommend them to visit first Afghanistan and then travel from there to Istanbul.
Thanks for all the opinions on this board. It is fantastic!
Faruk Aydin, MD
A political animal with thinking abilities.
Mr. Mardell I very much enjoy reading your blog and keeping informed of what else is going on in the world besides how many times Lindsay Lohan has been arrested this week.
While it's easy to justify the role of the military in Turkey, it's still against the core values of democracry. If some day the majority (I stress majority) Turks should vote for an extremist party the army would have to serve these people as well. And the truth is, that's exactly what they would do. The complexity about the Turkish case is that the military generally is in harmony the view of the majority of the Turkish people. When the rightist where a majority in Turkey, the military organized a rightist coup in the early 80'. And before that they made a leftist coup (in the 60') because the general trend in the society was closer to the left. So the army is in fact democratic in its own way and does not not act "agaist the people", hence the powerfull impact it has. Even today, when the army warns against "islamic fundamentalism" and sees the AKP as a threat to the secular system, people still hold the military as the "most trusted" institution of society. The current problem is no the view people hold towards fundamentalism. The people and the army shares the same view on this topic, no one wants fundamentalism. The problem is that the people does not see the AKP as a representative of fundamentalism and a threat to the secular system, while the army does.
While it's easy to justify the role of the military in Turkey, it's still against the core values of democracry. If some day the majority (I stress majority) Turks should vote for an extremist party the army would have to serve these people as well. And the truth is, that's exactly what they would do. The complexity about the Turkish case is that the military generally is in harmony the view of the majority of the Turkish people. When the rightist where a majority in Turkey, the military organized a rightist coup in the early 80'. And before that they made a leftist coup (in the 60') because the general trend in the society was closer to the left. So the army is in fact democratic in its own way and does not not act "agaist the people", hence the powerfull impact it has. Even today, when the army warns against "islamic fundamentalism" and sees the AKP as a threat to the secular system, people still hold the military as the "most trusted" institution of society. The current problem is no the view people hold towards fundamentalism. The people and the army shares the same view on this topic, no one wants fundamentalism. The problem is that the people does not see the AKP as a representative of fundamentalism and a threat to the secular system, while the army does.
Many centuries ago western cultural theorists decided that if everything is in a state of continual change, then (like a river) it remains the same despite the change. Personally, I believe this was a great mistake: Things are constantly and unavoidably evolving and becoming different (but not always "better") than they were before. I'm also not too sure that "things" actually exist in the static form that we appear to need in order to recognize, label, describe and cognitively operate on them.
So what is "the EU", "the Conservative party", "the Labour Party", "the AKP", "America", "Turkey", etc., if they are all dynamic and evolving systems (with many component parts -all of which are also evolving)? Surely, all one can do is to look for the origins which might explain the original intentions, the forces that are currently acting upon the them and perhaps how intended (and maybe desirable) directions might interact with the various forces that are operating on them. The outcome is always uncertain -because all these forces can never be fully understood (if the system has a reasonable level of complexity). Mathematically, there are an infinite number of functions that will map on to any given set of points -so "extrapolation" is a mathematical impossibility too. The most constant characteristic of the future is that it is impossible to predict.
Personally, I find it very sad that computers, which are essentially dynamic machines -which through the epistemological experience of "programming" could help us to understand dynamic systems much better -have been encapsulated by the commercial system and (largely) reduced to machines for the distribution of (traditional) static "information"..... Perhaps one day in the future, we shall see on a 91Èȱ¬ website a truly dynamic system that maps political, cultural, philosophical and/or economic models in ways that can be explored interactively by the public as part of the discussion. However, perhaps writing the programme is the real exercise in understanding -playing with the finished system might simply result in more "indoctrination".
So how will the population of the planet ever be able to collectively "programme" human social, political and economic life on earth? Will we need "local" or "global" control systems? Can "democracy" work on a large scale -or do we need a more "anarchistic" (self determining) system?
Surely, we need to think about not only how things are -but how they could be -plus how desirable (for ourselves and others) and how viable (or not) this might be.
What is the point of putting these pictures? Disgracing politics? The Turkey that you don't like, takes millions of tourist every year. Especially from UK, that year, thanks to you FASCINATING CLIMATE we got a lot of English tourists.
And the thing I don't understand is, "why do you discuss Turkey so much?"
Dear friends I read almost all what you have written but I am so sorry not to find even a word about the biggest problem of Turkey.It is the Kurdish Problem.A very important result of this election is the 23 INDEPENDENT CANDIDATE(THE ONE THAT WILL REPRESENTATE 20 MILLION KURDISH PEOPLE IN TURKEY THAT HAS BEEN BEING REFUSED).Erdogan also is a democrat person and he tried to finish this problem but whenever he said this problem he was afraid to loose his supporter.That is why he did not so much.But the INDEPENDENT CANDIDATES say that they will try to solve this problem firstly.So ı think this candıdates should be supported by especially the EU countries.Because the Turkey that has a big problem(the biggest problem of middle east[KURDISH PROBLEM]) will just give harm to these country.So every EUROPEAN should be aware of this.
In reply to John's post about same sex unions in Turkey, does he know that homosexuality has never been criminalised in Turkey - as it was in most EU member states in the past?
Dear John,
I would not say Turkey is a gay hell. It is true it is a conservative country but I have many gay friends who live happily ever after. There is no partnership law as yet but I think in Turkey we are more open than other countries who have a muslim population. For instance, prostitution is controlled by law and is a "proffesion" whose occupants go under health checks every month (please dont think I am saying this because it is similar to same sex marriages, I am saying it just as an example of liberty). Since when having same sex unions a criteria for EU? Is there such liberty in Poland, Italy, Spain etc.? I feel like Turkey has become a black goat for everyone regardless of what they know. Please look at Britain's gaps first before criticising other countries. I heard many gay friends not being able to visit their partner in hospital because of laws in the UK. This is not an issue in Turkey.
So the other claim you have about writers in prison. We have this terrible law due to be changed soon hopefully:301. It is open to interpretation and many writers who have written against a current government were put in prison. But numbers are certainly not more than any other country in the world. We have just as much clash between writers/caricaturists and the state as other countries. Couple of months ago a caricaturist published a figure of PM Erdogan as a cat being tangled in a rope (which is the EU). Erdogan gave him to court. The next issue of the magazine came out with an Erdogan zoo. I dont know if people outside Turkey tend to look only at these things turning a blind eye to good stuff, or it is the foreign media focusing only at these things. I am starting to believe this is propoganda on purpose. Like when Austria elects the fascist leader and then the party is closed nothing is said much. Or in Germany a new law comes (last month) who makes it compulsory for a Turkish partner to speak German before coming to Germany to marry another Turkish but the law doesnt apply to other nationalities. Or Sweden says they will jail anyone who speaks against the Armenian genocide. Or Poland jails pro-choice abortion protesters? No criticisms of free speech, human rights there. What am I supposed to think ?
I have never seen a place so rich with culture and diversity,I found out Turkey has more historical sites than any other country in the World,
8 major Empires made this place home
location,location,location they got it
We Love Turkey
X LAURA CULATELLA !
Your point of view is indeed interesting and to a certain extent fascinating also. But let me point out that while you deem "silly" the EU refusal to get Turkey, which is understandable, you fail to note that for example your country ( US ) is equally failing to offer Turkey the big opportunity to join your lovely nation, which already has overseas territories and non contiguos member states, ( see Alaska and Haway in the pacific just to mention 2 states ).. I encourage you the US in the strongest possible terms to offer membership to Turkey, and not follow in the steps of us poor silly Europeans. The US is surely more that willing to have another state in the union, isn´t it? Best Regards.
Dear LAURA CULATELLA,
Your point of view is indeed interesting and to a certain extent fascinating also. But let me point out that while you deem "silly" the EU refusal to get Turkey in, which is understandable, you fail to note that for example your country ( US ) is equally failing to offer Turkey the big opportunity to join your lovely nation, which already has overseas territories and non contiguous member states, ( see Alaska and Hawaii in the pacific just to mention 2 states ).. I encourage you and the US in the strongest possible terms to offer full membership to Turkey, and not follow in the steps of us poor silly Europeans. The US is surely more that willing to have another state in the union, isn´t it? Best Regards.
Europe will never accept Turkey, Turkey is not European in every sense of the word. Geographically, racially, culturally, linguistically and of course religiously. There is more chance of Ukraine, Belarus and Russia joining the European Union than Turkey.
The Turks should look East because the West will never accept them. The Turks have more in common with the Arabs and Iranians than Europeans.
Born in Turkey I, was brought up and educated in England and lived here from the age of nine. Before that I lived in Turkey and attended two years of primary education, just about learning to read and write in Turkish. I'm nearly fourty now and despite having lived in England for thirty years, I sometimes feel confused about my identity but overall I do have a different angle of vision, a Bristish vision but in colour. And with that in mind I found this article unjust.
So, when I read through this article, written by 'British journalist', I can't help but feel that even they, the enlightened ones, simply do not understand Turkey even though they are trying to educate the massess through their articles. Mr.Mardell does shed light into the fact that anything on this scale needs familiarity and educatation prior to passing any judgment.
For example, in this article Mardell and his cameramen have chosen 3 bad and two good photographs to reperesent modern Turkey. I didn't even bother on portrayal of Turkey's politics being run by as Islamist or Taleban educated politicians, which is only one of TUrkey's two serious problems.
The other is ofcourse the PKK a globally recognised terrorist organisation as we in the West know through loss of dozens of lives suring holidays to beautiful Turkey - PKK's attempted murder of tourism in Turkey to impede its economy.
Mr.Mardel, despite being a global reporter should know that the only two colours that represent Turkey are Red (to represent the blood shed to defend its independence - and starting with The Cold War, there has been much of it poured over Turkish soild) and White for enlightenment.
The colours Yellow, Red and Green do NOT represent Turkey at all. They represent the Kurds and are adopted and used by the PKK. Incidently, this is as in the same way the Al-Qaida terror organisation uses Islam to draw support from Muslims forming a kind of empathy.
Yes. I bet my bottom dollar that the lady and child are Kurdish and this is an article supposedly about Turkey.
Finally, I would like to suggest to the 91Èȱ¬ that it provides more funding to Mr.Mardell and his crew, so that i ntheir next trip they can travel some, see some and take some photographs of the real maccoy, I.e. Turkish culture and people.
I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but I believe there is some prejudism or ill education happening and at 'WorldService' Journalism levels, it is not acceptable.
Alas. They say any publicity is good publicity, so I thank Mark Mardell and his team for enlightening the West on his Turkey and Turkish studies.
Ps.
For information on Turkey and to find out about Turkish people go watch some Turkish TV at TRT (Turkish Radio Television)Turkey's National TV (like 91Èȱ¬ here)
www.trt.com.tr/canli.aspx
flick through channels 1,2,3 and 4. They stream live video 24/7.
There are lots of TURKISH documentaries, news, educational, childrens and current affairs programmes. That will give you a proper insight into Turkey, Turks and Turkish.
Have a nice day!
A great insight to the gastronomic benefits of visiting Turkey ,at 64 ,yet to take place .Trained on Escoffier, I am fascinated and greatly attracted to ' get out there '
Thank you mark for a great Blog !.....David
The principle should be that all institutions are required to uphold the (secular) constitution. If one institution (eg. Parliament) threatens the constitution, then other institutions (courts, army, bureaucracy) must fight them. You can't expect the army or courts or bureaucracy to obey unconstitutional orders from Parliament, or else Turkey would end up like Zimbabwe.
If Erdogan didn't support his wife wearing a head-scarf, then he could divorce her and get a more secular wife that is more presentable. Hillary Clinton would certainly divorce Bill Clinton if Bill started wearing a burka in public.
As usual, the real problem is that the opposition parties are useless and not electable. So the people have to vote for the least-bad alternative (which could be dangerous). The same problem happens in much of Africa and Latin America.
I'm beginning to see what a powerful lobby Turkey has assembled in its relentless quest for EU membership, and it's a big turnoff. One doesn't need that much pushing if one's cause is so "obviously" right.
My modest opinion: Turkey's pro-European rich elite is afraid to lose their pants and is masking it as fear of Islamization in hope to gain sympathy from the Europeans.
They've been selling the European concept to the Tukish rural population as a panacea- joining Europe will bring wealth to all- and the poor peasants have bought it.They'll soon figure out they are perfectly capable of doing it on their own, in which case the primary motive for joining goes down the drain and the elite loses.
Needless to say, European businesses stand to gain big from Turkey's membership in the EU. Thus,contrary to what some people on this blog state- it's not European gov'ts (who need bow to big businesses) but the European people who are opposing Turkey's membership in the EU.
Face the facts: the majority of the Europeans are against Turkey joining at this time (read the polls). The closer to ex-Ottoman empire the country - the bigger opposition toward Turkey in the EU. That explains Greek, Bulgarian and Austrian stances at the polls - as well as British, Scandinavian and American ones. The latter trio will never understand the legacy of the 400 years of misery southern Europeans edured under the Turks (except for those history buffs.)
It was 400+ years of holocaust for the southern Europeans. Turks view those times as glorious,which for them they were, indeed. If it hadn't been for the southern/central Europeans and the fierce battles in defense of their civilization, half of present-day Europe would be Muslim & Turk (as half of Bosnia is).Perhaps that wouldn't have been so bad. However, the people living at that time thought it would.
Understandably, southern Europeans, (along with several other European peoples) do not trust the Turks.
Only 6% of Turkey's territory lies within Europe. Ukraine, in my modest opinion, has a bigger "right" to join the EU since its territory is almost all within that of Europe. And how about Moldova and Georgia? How about European Russia? History is definitely on their side.They had accepted European values a long time ago; they did not try to destroy European civilization by imposing theirs.
I, too, have Turkish friends. Great people, kid you not. However, they belong to the Turkish elite:they are well-off and sophisticated and they want to become Europeans- stat and fully legal. They've been keen and ready for a while now. Unfortunately, one cannot say the same for their country. Turkey isn't ready. Not yet. Not in the social,political anycal sense. Some of my friends say so themselves. They set out and get US citizenship instead.
ACQ NY
Turkey is not part of Europe and should not be. It will be unnatural to accept Turkey in EU. Ant it will cause a lot of problems to the europeen population.
I am Turkish and live in Australia.
I advise thinking people to understand that the sum of everything discussed here does not equal the truth about Turkey. It is too complicated and depends on your many biases.
The discussion here is varied in content and perspective; e.g. Muslim vs non-Muslim, headscarf-disliker vs respecter of such freedoms, Turk vs Armenian vs Kurd vs European. These perspectives should immediately make it clear that there are going to be a lot of lobbyists to ensure only their views are heard on forums such as this.
Don't be distracted by the touristic value of Turkey, despite the inherent beauty here. Turkey needs the dollars.
The truth is will be elusive for readers of blogs such as this one, unfortunately, unless you are Turkish. The differences between Turks should also be considered, and the Turks in the West who are practising and believing Muslims generally do not make loud noises, not helped by anti-terror witchhunting, and this ensures that the prosecularist agenda (tied together with anti muslim sentiment around the world), is heard best.
I don't buy any of the arguments on face value. Dig deeper.
its up to the media to inform the public about places like turkey show that a person can be religious and democractic but the reason why akp won is because they represent a broad demographic of pepole in there party yes you have moderate isalmist like erdogan but you also have women politicans pepole from the left and the right the opposition like the chp could not offer this broad range and only apealde to some
Even if all of the above is true and correct, the EU will not countenance a shared border with Iraq. Period. And there, the EU may indeed have a point.
Dear Europeans,
With or without you we are making a lot of progress and there will be a time when we shall say why should we even join a union and let our people suffer due to unfair subsidies. In reality EU is nothing but a forced treaty where the imperialist German nation finances the rest of the countries and one day it will dissolve. My fear is the Germans will one day say 'well all of you guys owe us a lot of money so how about if we do a land for cash swap to cover your debt?'. It is brilliant.
As far as democracy goes there is TRUE democracy in Turkey because public can really choose their own parliament where for example in the US the entire media is controlled and manipulated by the same group of people and the candidates are chosen and financed by hedge funds whose owners are the same people (what a surprise) so in reality there is no democracy in the US. Public is constantly drugged by their media while they think they live in this freedom society. Funny but sad also.
We 'the Turks' come from a great nation that ruled half of the world and our borders stretch from Adriatic to China, the biggest fear of every European is history repeating itself but again isn't that inevitable?
Hi dear commentators,
@ AZAD
There are not a problem as "kurdish problem" there is a problem about ABD's Middleast Project and how ABD uses some of the kurdish people for make its idea real . Millions of kurds are live with other
people in TURKEY -turks, kurds, cristians... - so there is not a problem about all of kurdish. Some of the kurds are live in the bad life standards because of geological and educational problems and ABD uses these broken and uneducated people for make true its middle east project.
Poor Mark, I bet you have been inundated with comments from the Turks !
It is always so noticeable how vociferous they are whenever Turkey hits the headlines.
No doubt you had statements like , " you don't understand Turkey " or you are ' prejudiced with your western values'. Blah Blah.
I have seen it throughout the last 6 months & getting more replies than ever.
What these people don't understand is , we on the outside do see the full confused picture in Turkey, & if you report something which conflicts with their point of view , tough.
Don't worry about it , just give us [ Brits ] the facts in your blog, we like an honest opinion, as you see it !!!
The majority of the comments centers on Turkey is good but Islam is a bit dangerous. This attitude is eliminating any hope and trust from those in the west who advocate for freedom and an established society. If the very core of what you believe is constantly challaged and termed "evil" you just give up and Jsut be a "weirdo", i'm proud to see an established nation with some sort of values and morals. Good Luck Turkey.
Concerned Muslim
Dear Maggie,
You can just comment on the "confused picture of Turkey" or see it from outside whilst we "Turks" are living that in full ourselves. And yes, you won't be able to understand Turkey,since we Turks are not fully capable of voicing ourselves in the international platform and we do fail badly due to a heavy language barrier. We are open to positive criticism as a nation mostly but because of the harsh remarks that has been made in the past people here remain sceptic about the approach of the "foreigners". Personally i do believe that Turkey should keep out of EU at all costs, since the immigration problem within Europe continues, and all the countries that facing this problem would take radical decisions about their EU stance. I wouldn't be surprised if some of these counties might want to opt out since the cracks in the foundations of the union started to show up.
Dear Mark,
Maggie Millington in her post as a remark to this blog identifies herself as a 'Brit', siding with you to 'give us the facts' (nudge nudge, wink, wink). It bothers her as a Brit that Turks should speak up on this forum. I should be sorry therefore for posting this response. I am not a Brit, but I come from one of your colonies down under, and that probably doesn't help my status on this forum either.;-)
My concern is that such arrogance exemplified by Maggie underpins imperialistic behaviour and is a characteristic of radical state foreign policy. Journalism, State Military, and Governments each are interlinked and misinformation in the form of propaganda serves to fuel opinion of voters. The imperialistic attributes of the British and other governments, as well as its recent foreign policy behaviour, has features described of fundamentalist religious groups. Justifiable wars on grounds of 'preemption' lead to the death of innocent bystanders, innocently dubbed 'collateral damage' or 'friendly fire' by such states. Only a few degrees of separation exist between widely publicised religious fundamentalists and those who claim only they could possibly KNOW and TALK the truth. The reason countries go to war and send their soldiers to kill is preceded by such deliberate and arrogant campaigning to the voting public who don't know the whole truth. Terrorists are no different to a state army, from the perspective of the person and relatives of family killed. Each side claims a good reason to kill. With such morbid issues at stake, of course Turks are going to talk on this forum, they do not want the discussions to assert that they must be wrong.
Maggie has served to fuel my cynicism of such discussions. She has asked us to accept that only the 'Brits' could possibly tell the truth! Mutual ground in any conflict resolution can only be achieved when all sides accept their biases, and this is my original point in POST 47 on this blog, as well as the point of many Turks serving to have their say on this forum.
In Sydney, an isolated jurisdiction has entered the debate about the Armenian and Turkish conflict by siding with the Armenians with a monument to the alleged genocide. Why take sides at all? Sydney is a far cry away from Turkey and Armenia! Why would only one minor jurisdiction (Ryde) in Sydney do this, without uniformity across all councils throughout Sydney, and in doing so isolate the Turkish minority in favour of the Armenian minority. The 'oil goes to the squeakiest wheel', and there are more influential Armenians in Ryde (Sydney), than say in South-Western Sydney, that's why! My point again, there is no uniformity on this issue throughout Sydney because it is in the past, it is historically debatable, and the issue is debated for or against depending on political biases and on the basis of what mileage could be gotten from it, not the truth of the matter. I wonder if the Ryde Council has even bothered to ask for the Turkish side of the story, or even sent aid to Armenia to assist the poverty stricken and landlocked country. Turkey and Armenia perhaps should sort things out between themselves and leave the armchair commentators asleep in the comforts of their chair.
Maggie, the Brits killed many young Turks in Gallipoli, southwestern Turkey, and God knows where else. Is this Genocide or Preemption? or simply War? Is this terrorism? Sorry, I must be out of my league, I am after all simply a Turk! Over to you, although I don't trust you.
Turk
Dear Mark,
you seem that you are doing a good job spreading the British propaganda. So, Turkey is fascinating for you. It is nice to express your opinion and experiences. However, you are missing or most probably hiding the whole picture. I remember your nice trip to the illegal airport in the occupied part of Cyprus, in order to inform the ignorant Brits about the isolation of the Turkish Cypriots (but you failed to mention the reason: the Turkish invasion and occupation of 37% of Cypriot soil). You have also failed to spread your knowledge to the British society. A few miles east from the illegal airport is my town, Famagusta, which is being occupied by the Turkish army for 33 years (which Britain should supposed to protect as a guarantor power of the Cyprus Republic). The once vibrant town has been turned today into a ghost town. But what does it matter? It is not your house and property there (I am wondering how you would react if the Turks occupied your home and land). Additionally, that report does not serve the planning of the British (they still think that they are colonial?) Foreign Ministry and its effort to present a democratic and a European-oriented Turkey. If you want to be called a journalist, you should do it the right way by presenting to truth. If you fail to do so, just quit.
Maggie,
could you please read your message as a third person and tell me what you think the subtext is? To me it reeks of hypocracy. You blame Turks of refusing to try other views. How about you? Have you tried to open up your mind a little? Fast-food approach to the outside world have blinded you Brits. You want something ready to eat, not something to think over. You are craving for news that would just confirm your misconceptions and prejudices. Of course Turks love resonding to anything related them in media. It comes from the reflexes they developed over centuries, developed by the experience of being the scapegoat of hyprocratic Western media, the media run by a bunch of illiterate, Turkophobic journalism abusers.
You just wait and see, now that more and more Turks are getting fluent in English, more and more educated Turks relocate abroad and create diasporas, you will hear a lot of reality whether you like it or not.
Best of luck to you !
Turkey should cease its negotiations with the EU. And being European is not limited to being a member of the EU. Just take a look at the soccer (football) tournament seedings Turkey receives as part of 'Europe.'
Turkey should realign itself with Russia and the former Soviet (and Turkic) republics, as well as the U.S. Then, it should wait for the EU to start begging Turkey to join it in a few years.
Cheers from Southern California.
I agree with you completely Maggie. Turks need to get over it and get real. But the actions of Turks will speak louder than words, and a new generation of Turks are going to elevate Turkey to the next level, or at least I am hopeful. The commenting Turks who make the most noise do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Turks in general. And similar to Islam, Turks need to improve their 'perceived' image versus the real one.
Dear E. Powell,
Do you ever sit for a while and think what you have been telling. The words and sentences you and your alikes rapidly becoming simpler and honestly empty. They don't seem to carry and ideas but just made of empty slogans. Try a little on analyzing the processes.
Lets have a look on yourd claims.
1. Europe will never accept Turkey,
GOOD Morning, Europe had already accepted Turkey. Since 1850's (yes! 160 years) Turkey is a respectfull part of the European International System. Turkey is one of the founding nations of the United Nations, the European Council, NATO etc. So wake up!
2. Turkey is not European in every sense of the word.
a. Geographically: Europe as a continent is in reality a part of a greater continent which is called Eurasia. Eastern Thracia which is only 1/20 th of the land is actually bigger from more than 5 EU countries. And who told you Cyprus is a part of Europe in Geographical terms. In reality it is a part of Anatolia.
b. Racially: There are more than 4 million Turkish citizens living in the EU countries. So I guess you are playing the racism game and prefer not to count them as citizens. Turkey is 1.000 years old empire which had dozens of nationalities in it. I bet there are more Albanians in Turkey than it is in Albania (Ops! I bet you don't count them European also)
c. Linguistically: In which EU regulation does it write that Europeans can only speak Indo-European languages. So you drop the Basks, the Hungarians and the Finnish from the list also. Your list looks getting smaller! And if you are in search of linguistic brothers you should look more East to Iran and India which also have 4.000 years history of speaking Indo (focus on this word)- European languages. Finally we have almost 13 million people speaking an Indo-European language which is Kurdish. Just try to compare where they by themselves only the 8th biggest population in Europe. So cheer up, your language family is getting bigger.
d. Culturally: Think why Mozart was trying to compose Turkish alike melodies 500 years ago. So how will you purify your lovely culture from those elements. One great choice is trying to ignore them as before!! So keep on!
e. Religiously: So the buddhists, hindus, taoists, Muslims shall not be citizens of the EU. So what will you do for the present ones! Dump them? Besides almost 50 % of Czech Republic is atheist, which means they don't have any religion. Your list keeps shrinking!! By the way I bet you don't know that Anglicans were calling the Catholics as heretics a few hundred years ago. Same for the Catholics calling the Orthodox as heretics. So which one is the best for a EU citizen. Or how will you ensure they will not call others as heretics in the future.
f. Slavik countries is a better choice. Isn't it funny that you were seeking partnership from Turkey to protect you from those Russians. By the way there are a lot of scholars who call the mother Russia as being a part of Eastern culture. And finally Russia has 14 million Muslims. So again you have some problem.
g. West will never accept them.
Who asked for your charity to be accepted to the EU. We are working on it on our own. And Turkey is core of your Eastern-Western world nearly for 3 millenium. So who do you think you are offering us to choose a side. We are what we are, carrying all the heritage of the East and the West at the same time.
So you and your alikes leaded by the ignorant guy called Sarkozy. Stop yelling this nonsense slogans and try to speak to us. I bet you will learn many...
The Turks have more in common with the Arabs and Iranians than European"
Hi MARK
you are asking & you hope we would like your photos. I am replying as NO I do not like your photos .
TURKEY VERY MUCH MORE THAN THESE PHOTOS. IF YOU CLAIM YOU HAD BEEN HERE SEVERAL TIMES, YOU KNOW THIS WELL.
TURKEY IS REALLY FASCINATING COUNTRY OVER THE WORLD. EVERYBODY MUST KNOW THIS AS WELL .
AND MOST IMPORTANTLY TURKEY BELONGS THE TURKS.
to mehmet kara,
i don't agree with your thoughts.i can't imagine that how can you be so pessimistic and unrealistic about politic situation in turkey.people in the streets don't care headscarf or sth.they only want to live in peace.they all are bored of this little arguments.
you may not like the akp or erdogan's personality.but you have to see the reality.turkey gain much more reputation in the world at all branches than ever has.the akp government did good things for turkey ( even they has mistakes ).
and especially turkey's position is so important that it doesn't need such insignificant discussion like yours : champaigne or apple juice...
please don't do that ..pfff
ps: mr mardel,thank you for your good opinions about turkey.
Mark ;
i am from Holland and me and my family been living in Turkey last 4 years.
i am one of the foreigners that bought a "holiday home" in Turkey after the recent property boom here.
and as far as i know last year alone, more than 70.000 foreigners bought property here. (our nighbours are british ).
this is a interesting country, mosques, churches, night clubs, pubs, crowded beaches all together..
majority of people very open minded but they do complain that some foreign media and journalist misinforming people about Turkey and Turkish society.
and as i foreigner who lives in Turkey, i do not see AKP party as a threat, infact they are the most pro-EU and reformist party in Turkey at the moment.
i am almost %100 sure that, this country doesn't have secular-non secular problem or radical islam issue.
by the way, your pictures are interesting but would've been nice to see some pictures from Turkey's historical and Touristic sites as well.
regards
JAN
fascinating as Turkey can be, one must not forget the violation of human rights, minorities invasions in foreign countries (Cyprus and Iraq) disbutes with neighbours such as Syria. This country needs to assess its true goals, either conform with international law and co-exist with its neighbours peacefully, or just remain the way it is. the various coup d' etats that have been occuring in Turkey, the constant irregularities with the generals make this country rather unstable and a threat to the region. as for its humiliation by the european union, laura am sorry but i don't think you understand the european union. all countries wishing to join the union must harmonise their legislarion in oder to be compatible with the rest of its members, turkey doesn't do much to change all this. let's put it in a different and more simplistic way, when one joins a club they already know the rules and want to play by those rules, thinking of changing them before joining, i don't think it is the right approach.
I am a Canadian by birth, upbringing and temperament. However, my ethnicity is Turkish as my parents and their entire families all originated in Istanbul. My parents were born the same time as the Republic of Turkey and proudly referred to themselves as Ataturk's children. I suppose the Westernization and secularism so fervently embraced by their generation and the upbringing they received having been fortunate enough to have lived in such a cosmpolitan society all made it easier for my parents to adjust to life here in Canada, to become Canadian citizens too, to regard themselves as Canadians and assimilate into Canadian society.
All these arguments about the Europeaness of Turkey, the religion of her people and the role of religion in Turkish society!! Seems to me these arguments have been waged by Turkey and the rest of Europe ever since the Ottomans first appeared on the scene out of the steppes of Central Asia!
Frankly, I think Turkey would surpass anything "European" by looking further West than Europe, studying this Dominion of Canada and using Canada as a model of an inclusive, free, democratic, secular, liberal society where separatism is fought with words and where we seek a society free of violence. So any of those naysayers who believe Turkey can never be "European" (ie "civilized"?), I presume to point myself out as an example of someone of Turkish descent who is firstly Canadian and proud of this Canada truly the finest country in the world, surpassing any European society!
Hi. Recently one of 91Èȱ¬'s reporters that was covering the state of affairs of recent election in Turkey posted a photo with his/her article that got my attention and provoke this hearth felt reaction... The photo was from town of Kayseri... I viewed it with special interest, for this is the town that my family had originated from, place they called home for thousands of years, place where they built, loved and shared...Place where they were killed and massacred in the 1915 Genocide, yes they were Armenian subjects of Ottoman empire who happened to be Christian Armenians... no more no less...The Armenians of this region and city were weary much Turkofied... most did not know the Armenian language, Many of there customs were same with their Muslim neighbors ...They were miles away from any war front, had no political parties or any separatist aspirations... nevertheless they were killed and deported from their homeland...
Now in modern day Turkey it is a crime to acknowledge the Armenian Genocide . Intellectuals and specialists who differ from the official position of the government are not only jailed and harassed but also are targeted and killed like Hrand Dink the editor of Turkish Armenian newspaper , and or have to live under trats to their life, like the First Turkish Nobel Prize winner Orhan Pamuk, historian Taner Akcham and so on...
Turkey is a beautiful country with warm beautiful people, it has meany possibilities to contribute to the family of nations, the cultural heritage which was enriched by layer upon layer of diverse cultures that existed on this lands, and at times co existed in harmony provides a unique potential and place in this context of things...
Yet the narrow minded, short sited and truly absurd policy of Genocide denial has handicapped the entire society to a level that it can not function as a healthy force to deal with current challenges and problems it faces, like the Kurdish issue, the Alevi issue and meany others....
I do speak Turkish language, I listen and enjoy Turkish music, and I do have weary dear friends that are Turkish. My grandfather who was orphaned do to genocide did not have ill feelings against the Turkish nation and always used a Turkish proverb according to which" there are dogs in every town", He passed on legacy of also happier days, days of friendship and constructive co existence...
The legacy of all nations who lived , contributed and helped to create what we know as Turkey today, like the Greeks, like the Armenians, like the Assyrians, like the Kurds like the Arabs, like the Jews and list can go on and on , is to fundamental and to great to be short changed for local, current political expediency...
We can not pick and choose and whitewash the history, it has bad and good, to live better today we must be objective and true with ourselves, after all this is not a advertisement for tourist industry, It is real lives of us all , our children and their potential to live in harmony , peace and friendship....
I urge the 91Èȱ¬ correspondents who cover Turkey not to give in to narrow mindedness of some people in any society or nationality and in their coverage of modern day Turkey and realize the factors that have contributed , helped to make what we have today, the pain, the joy, the truth that is unwavering and is the only remedy and guarantee for healthy future... As painful as it may be the issue of systematic destruction of entire nation from its ancestral homeland of thousands of years can not be overlooked, forgotten and dismissed us a mere past, future is built on the past, they are parallel and are one in the context of universal ordr of things...
To admit and to condemn the crimes of few mad politicians of the past is never a stain or guilt on the Turkish nation of today, it only can enhance and guaranty their productive and healthy image and place in today's world...
I love all good people everywhere ... I love the ancestral town of my family Kaysery and its people and love to visit one day... after all I'm part of it...
John
Hi All,
Actually when I read blogs and comments about Turkey Im surprised. In Turkey almost 80 million people lives and they voted for election and as a result 46.6% 1 party got highest amount of votes in this country history. This means almost half of voters voted for that party. Just I would like to say that I think those people see something on that and they voted in my opinion it is not fare still complaining about the elections.
As I see Turkish people has a problem to describe theirselves and to be a community when they are together first of all this should be somehow solved after that I believe that they will be in a better position.
Mark,
I'm suprised to see that you've taken these pictures in Turkey as if they represent a "fascinating Turkey". Actually, they are just a bunch of pics from the eastern provinces. Believe me, if you call these pics fascinating, I'm wondering what you'll say when you picture the real Turkey.
ahum, only 3% of Turkey is 'geographically' in Europe and I use the word geographically loosely. But
Turkey is not apart of Europe even if the Turkish people admire Western European ideals. People may believe this is about Islam. No, it is not JUST about Islam. Just because Turkey, like South Korea, is a 'Liberal' democracy doesnt make it European. In fact, SKorean PM is a Christian and Christianity has surpassed Buddhism in population stakes. As an atheist defining what Europe is one cannot swerve to far from its Christian heritage. Amongst other things its relationship with this religion thru the Roman holy Empire or Byzantine Empire, the Renaissance, the Enlightenment (of which only Central and Western Europe were central to it). Someone please plead me a case that Turkey is European and just from Ataturks 1920 Republican Turkey.
First, "religion" represents no more than a fraction of any individual's cultural identity. Likewise, any pollitical organization that does not specifically use a "religious tag" i.e., "christian democrat" should be labeled by the language "tags" they use to identify themslves, like "social" or "justice". As a scholar and journalist I abhor current media abuse of terms related to "islam" -- whether to identify architecture or terror.
Most architecture labeled "Islamic" only integrates previous Mediterranean and Indo-Iranian structural forms and decoration with few innovations.
Should we thus understand the term as historical and/or geographical rather than religious? While mosques may differ from churches in a few aspects, palaces are no more than palaces with no reference to religion.
Here we run headlong into the distinction between civilization and religion. Most scholars identify "Islamic arts and civilization" with specific objects and processes of a previous period and location, that no longer exists.
Should "acts of terror" always include the biggest actors -- states that practice coercive terror to destabilize opponents, foreign or domestic? Why do media shy away using that term — state terrorism?
Religion is axiomatically an abstraction as no "religion" can claim any unified definition among its multitude of diverse cultural groups, sects, and interpreters. Therefore, it is logically absurd to label state or anti-state perpetrators of terrorist acts, by religious affiliation. We could thus label Bush's US regime, and its predecessors, as practicing "Christian terrorism" in Latin America, Asia or Africa, by direct or indirect practices and support for organizations and institutions perpetrating terror.
Journalists may not adhere to academic standards, nor do they practice what journalism schools preach. Media is a rough & tumble mix of propaganda and commerce, as Murdock's acquisition of the Wall Street Journal illustrates.
As a bastion of quasi-objective information, the 91Èȱ¬ should not follow Fox news misuse of language "tags" even though it must compete against that intolerant propaganda machine for a WASP (White Anglo-Saxon Protestant) world view.
The greatest global struggle is not over actions, but their representation -- control of language and media to form and sway public opinion.
Would Europe be Europe without the symbiotic conflicts among all major state and cultural actors over the past 700 years?
If that is the case, then as inheritor of an Ottoman legacy, Turkey is an integral part of European historical geography. Moreover, the genetic and ethnic origin of most modern "Turks" is more Balkan and Slavic than "Asian".
Ottoman state territorial control and concern was never for their East, but always the West. This fact is well represented by consistent European expansion versus sporadic incursions to control North African or Arabian lands. While Russia claims to be Europe's historical buffer from "Asiatic hordes" in actual fact the multi-ethnic Ottoman realm stood as protector of Europe from Mongols and their successors.
Ottoman subjects included only a small population of ethnic Turks. Moreover, all Sultans from Mehmet onward were mothered by ethnically European females that constituted the primary breeding pool for every generation of Sultans. Most all Ottoman civil and military officials were of European ethnic extraction, either taken as taxation or captives or converts such as Italians who became Admirals or Poles who became prime ministers.
So too, many Sephardic Jews, Pontic Greeks and Armenians, reached highest administrative ranks. Today's "Turks"are a melange of all the descendants of a historically "European" Ottoman empire with its capital and concerns mainly European.
Ataturk was a European from Salonica who loved French language and culture, and who created a European constitution, state and legal system for the new Republic. Many elements of the Turkish Republican constitution were ahead of other European countries in matters such as women's right to vote.
Thus, it would be a logical fallacy to exclude Turkey from the European Community. But the European Union is such a massively self-contradictory entity that it is perhaps more a house of cards than of logic.
A fascinating subject and a facinating country. As an american who was stationed in Turkey for several years, I can say without reservation that I love the country, it's people and it's culture. I have made many Turkish friends and will always think of the country with great fondness and appreciation.
Having said that, I must also, at the risk of stating the obvious, say that Turkey is only barely european geographically and absolutely not at all culturally. The EU is one of western civilization's great accomplishments, and has allowed it, from many perspectives, to vault pass the US. It's model is a beacon of hope to those who wish to see former enemies cooperate as nations, and therefore demonstrate the benefits of international cooperation. At what point does it cease to expand and therefore become something other than 'Europe'?
The EU, alomost by definition, cannot include nations that are not complete democracies, and Turkey, despite it's many good and wonderful qualities, at the moment, is only 'quasi-democratic'. Islam, by it's very nature, is opposed to true democracy, and any nation that considers itself 'muslim' will never be truly democratic. The fact of the matter is that the army is really the only institution standing between radical Islam and Turkey's democratic institutions, and any nation that must rely upon armed force, and all that that implies, to this extent, cannot be called a democracy. Kemel Attaturk recognized this fact, and imbedded in the turkish constitution restraints against the islamicism of turkish society. These restraints are themselves un-democratic, and shows the extent to which the known and stated requirements of Islam worried the founders of modern Turkey
Again, Turkey is a wonderful country, but it is not European, and it should not be admitted to the EU.
First, I want to thank all the TURKS who commented here. It is their understanding and explanations that we really need to see and read. While I lived and worked in Turkey for 4 wonderful, unforgettable years, it is with a westerner's viewpoint that I see the Turkish government and the current 'regime'. In my opinion, and in the opinion of most of my students and friends, it is correct to refer to Erdogan and his ilk as 'islamist'. It goes beyond the headscarved wife, too. They want to install Imam's in positions of power and have every intention of undoing the work of Ataturk.
Also, one poster, a Turk, said he would be disgusted if a headscarf were in the Presidential Palace. To which, a westerner accused him of being a stalinistic atheist. NOTHING could be further from the truth... I am certain.
The turks who are opposed to the headscarf being in the Presidential Palace (or in any government building) are not athiests. In fact, most of them know the Koran better than the headscarves. They aren't 'elitists', either.
I think it behooves the 91Èȱ¬ to get someone who actually LIVES AND WORKS in Turkey.. not just visits from time to time, to write these blogs. Better yet, get a Turk. Many of them are educated and can speak English quite well.
I say to all the western countries who are trying to brake Turkey a part
it will be the biggest mistake they will do.
they have no idea what is the determination of the Turkish people when it comes to their home land.
if they are smart they will use Turkey to brige the gap thay have created between east and west, this should be the priority for them.
To Shaun Sinaler,
Thank-you for proving my point so vociferously, so perfectly !
Dear Mr. Mardell,
Thank you for the perspective you have given the rest of the world into this fascinating, beautiful and complex country for the rest of us with hungry eyes and inquiring minds who have not yet boarded the plane and landed. If you get weary and it starts to feel like you are trying to "fit the ocean into a paper cup," the way it can sometimes feel with writing and bearing witness remember those who can not see what you see or be where you are - read your words hungrily. Thank you for the honest, clean prose and lovely photos.
Cheers!
Dear Mark
i have read your comments and as a Turkish person i agree with mosth of them.I have also read other people's comment sometimes i am suprised , sometimes i read them with cross hard but i know that i can't judge people because of their thoughts. But at least i respect them and i am asking to everybody why they can not be respectfull for the people that , not in same ideology
thank you
I guess we Turks have had enough of such stories. Turkey this and Turkey that! It is so funny to hear all such comments and when I hear a positive comment about the country I just cannot help feeling flattered and mumbling "WOW!" So, we have western friends then!
Hi Mark,
Enjoy your commentaries very much and, like you, find "Turkey one of the most fascinating and enjoyable places." I've been a complete Turkophile since my first visit in 1971 (overland in an old £25 Morris Minor!) and my subsequent living and working in Istanbul for a while. I've been close to my best friends there for more than 30 years now!
I have to agree with Michael Lake (25 Jul 2007) re the 91Èȱ¬ pronunciation of Galatasaray. It really grates every time you hear the football commentators say Gala Tasaray (would they ever say Crys Talpalace I wonder?) Moreover it means everybody else in Britain then pronounces it the same way - even more irritating!!
So see if you can use your 91Èȱ¬ influence, Mark, and get them to educate Lineker, Hansen and Co.....
Keep up the good work
Regards
Barry Hurst
As a Turkish young boy, i see that Turkey will challenge 2 main problems:
1-Economy, standart of living
2-Secularism vs Islam
Let me start with first problem. As you know Turkey is a big country that have over 70 million people. And still it is raising very rapidly. Every year 1 million young people enter labor force. But nearly half of them can find a job. So at the end of every year we have 500.000 army of joblesses. This is the most important problem for Turkey about economy. On the other hand, now the per capita of GNP is 5500$.This is very lower number compared to European countries. And of course, unbalanced income among public.. Although these look terrible, i am hopeful that we will be better in the future. Because AKP knows how to manage country.
Our second problem that even all of world know is secularism. Actually Turkey is not a secular country! Why? Beacuse in a secular country you can't see a foundation about religion. But Turkey has. In most of the state buildings you can find masjid(A room with carpet for people to pray. Like small mosque) but no chapel and etc. I don't say these because i am opposed. In contrast i support that every state building must have a masjid. But the crucial point is that you can find just masjid. I can count more...The thing i want to express is that in Turkey secularism is just a word that politics play with their mouths. There is a "deep state" in Turkey that controls these conversations. And the members(that we don't know) of this "deep state" are keen to make people stay away from Islam. Media is also controlled by them. When i was a child i remember that in TV we were tought that living Islamic way of life means going back. You can't see any Islamic program or anything about Islam in our major TV channels. In contrast, we have "stupid serieses". In these "stupid serieses" always same things happen..Always couples deceive each other and live trouble. Unfortunately we are slept by these silly programmes. Most of Turk wakes up, goes work, comes home and watches these stupid programmes. There is nothing to learn anything about Islam in TV. But in the last 20 years, we have been starting to wake up and understood that we have to be a good Muslim. This waking up is problem for "deep state". Because they are loosing their slaves! And after they see that, they started to deceive us with another way: secularism and Ataturk! Because they know that majority of Turkish people respect Ataturk, they say that because Ataturk brought secularism, you have to be a secular individual. But we know that the real source of secularism is not Ataturk, but Europe. Therefore they are so angry that they are eating their toes! No more they can't deceive us... I won't mention all the story. But at least most of the Turkish people saw the reality that this country is managed by enemies of Islam who are very successful to hide themselves behind "secularism curtain". For example Ahmet Necdet Sezer, our 10. president, leader of CHP, leader of army... These are the main reasons why we have secularism trouble. These people who are really managing Turkey can't accept any Muslim girl to enter any universities or other state buildings with their headscarves. Because these places are holy places! They are not tolerant any Islamic things. But the public is Muslim! So, we are fighting each other!
Public vs. State
This is why AKP is raising...Public see AKP as savior of Islam and their life style. After 5 years they will be more powerful..
This is the short story of problems of Turkey.
Sincerely.
Turkey is a unique country with all those beautiful people, fascinating history, wonderful sightseeing, and has a special mission between West and East. Therefore, Turkey has to have close relationship with EU, Muslim countries and rest of the other Turkic World, without being 'only' one of them.
Turkey cannot be described without any of these values: Islam, Turk, Europe.
I am not surprised that none of the comments above is able to place Turkey in its real personality.
I am asking all the Turks "Why do you fear for being a Muslim, a Turk and an European at the same time?"
You need to solve your personality problem first before being a leader of all three worlds.
Yes, I see in the future Turkey as only leader of three worlds.
Reformation... Called for by a party procaiming religion (i.e. NOT its political ideology)
...Yeah, right.
How more cynical can you get these times?
regards mispronouncing Erdogan's name. This is a common mistake as it is actually ... ErdoÄŸan, the ÄŸ is Turkish. It is soft and not pronounced at all.
Brgds Russell
On questioning Turkey's democracy, I believe there are different views in this regard between Europeans and us.
We have gained most of our democratic rights with the Republic after 1923 not with Democracy. So all democratic rights such as voting etc were given by Republic. At this point, we are separating from the views in Europe. And in Europe the people established democracy, but in Turkey, the military has given or led the way for people towards republic.
Now, while Europe considers civilians have more effect in Democracy (for us Republic), we consider Army has more effect as a founder and protector.
So mentioning about Army in Turkey should not be understood that Army has direct effect in politics or balance of power, yet it is a protective reflex. Like father to son...
i am also fed up with this "AKP islamist" and "new president Mr gul is islamist" thing !
Today's AKP party has members and MEP's from socialist backrounds, There are women's right campaigners, Gay right campaigners, Freedoms and Rights activists etc all inside the AKP party.
so They are far far away from being "islamist" or "taliban" as some foreign media says !
and Mr Gul, who has established himself as a skilled diplomat by steering Turkey towards European Union entry talks
And The European Union welcomed Mr Gul's election, calling it a positive step in the country's campaign to join the bloc.
i am a AKP member and we do not have problem with secularism !
and there is no secular-antisecular divided society here.
we all want a better life for our people, our children, more democracy freedoms and rights for Turkish republic and also want to be part of European Union and modern society.
Thats what AKP wants, Thats what Mr Gul wants !
regards