Deep in Kurdish territory
SOUTH-EASTERN TURKEY: Airline etiquette shifts as you move towards the rural east in Europe, and the tendency carries on in the south-east of Turkey. As we land in Diyarbakir a ripple of applause moves through the plane. True, it had been a bit of a bumpy landing, but what's all this about? You can't imagine people in France and Germany doing it. It's true Israelis do, but I always thought that was patriotic relief at arriving in the homeland. I've heard British package tourists do it too, and I'm not sure why.
The other constant, that goes with applause, is that people are desperate to get up and be off, jostling each other to get their bags and stand up even though there will be a 20-minute wait before the doors open. True to form, women in colourful traditional dress jumped up and hauled their luggage out of the overhead lockers.
The pilot made the traditional "Please don't unfasten your seat belts until the plane has stopped moving" plea, but perhaps the applause hadn't been long or loud enough. He slammed on the brakes. I've never seen it done before. The women crashed into each other and landed heavily back in their seats uttering what I supposed were colourful and traditional oaths.
The Silk Road running past the Turkish-Syrian border is not named for its smoothness. For mile after mile we drive through the tawny brown hills, on one side of the road runs a tall barbed wire fence and watch towers. Beyond that, charred blackened land, peppered with mines I'm told.
The driver swerves from side to side, to avoid the many potholes. Suddenly we come upon a section of road with brightly and freshly painted white lines, guarded by plastic cones. "We don't have roads, but we've got the lines," observes the driver wryly.
We're heading for the border with Iraq, where that country's foreign minister claims the Turks have massed 140,000 troops. This is deep in Kurdish territory but the only sign of the army we've seen so far is one checkpoint, with a fearsome armoured car and a rather scrawny looking young recruit.
The landscape is not unlike some parts of Spain, arid and undulating, but it is still weird to think that this one day maybe the boundary of the European Union, literally bordering Iraq and Syria.
That is I suppose the point of those who say most of Turkey is not Europe. But I tell you there is an even more distinct lack of the North Atlantic. Not a drop of sea in sight, and none of the land is anywhere near that body of water. But I don't remember many protests when Turkey joined the
I鈥檓 Mark Mardell, the 91热爆's North America editor. These are my reflections on American politics, some thoughts on being a Brit living in the USA, and who knows what else? My 
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Of course there wasn't any objection to Turkey joining NATO.
It gave NATO total knowledge of all Soviet naval traffic in and out of the black sea.
And if "North Atlantic" had been followed to the letter, Greece and Italy would have been disqualified as well.
Nevertheless, there's a big difference between joining a military alliance and joining a quasi-state.
Turkey will (hopefully) never be allowed to join. The peoples of Europe are against it yet politicians seem to ignore us. They foist this supranational EU supergovernment on us without asking us. Why o why do they not listen?
Somehow, we have to get possible Kurdish independence on the table. That'll kill Turkey's bid quickly! Turkey still occupies and oppresses parts of Kurdistan. I say stop the occupation!
"...This is deep in Kurdish territory..." statement the author implies that the area is not part of the Turkish Republic but the land is somehow split into territories where different races live. This is rubbish. The whole country is called the Turkish Republic and it is a democracy where anyone can live anywhere they want. In fact most of the people who cannot find jobs in this so called Kurdish Territory and others from other parts of the country,as well as people from the neighbouring countries live in Istanbul. So does that make Istanbul United Nations territory? The Kurdish Territory that the author talks about is only in his mind and the treaty of Serves that the imperialist nations tried to impose on Turkey, and failed when the Turks won the war of Independence. But I think the children of the imperialist natios are still fighting the war - war of words. With respect to other parts of the article there are many places, say, Van, bordering Iran, are as beautiful as landmarks in Europe plus full of history. Imagine Turkey becoming part of the European Union and adding its rich heritage and history to the European Union of different cultures. This is a gain not a loss for Europe.
You should never trust a spell checker.... ("slammed the breaks" instead of the brakes)
Nobody protested against Turkey becoming a member of NATO because the Americans wanted that country in (remember the Truman doctrine ?) and nobody protested when Washington urged Ankara to apply for EEC membership because the cold war was still on. Now that the USSR has disappeared, the Europeans are making their feelings known despite the fact that the Pentagon still treasures Incirlik for its "power projection" use that doesn't concern Europe
why if the kurds dont get independence nobody talks, they even dont have a country. but when albanians are in the picture suddenly its normal to give away land (kosovo) and give one nation two countries. its western politics its modern imperialism practitioned by the west
Diyarbakir is Turkish territory as the city lies in Turkey so i dont see how it could be in Kurdish territory. Is the Harrigey in London Turkeish territory as it has a large number of Turks there, or Brixton Jamaican territory with the large number of Jamaicans there. But personally i think Turkey joining the EU will be a big loss for Turkey as EU culture will ruin Turkish culture, western culture has already ruined so much and Turkey isnt even in the EU, just listen to all the foreign words replacing Turkish ones, why use foreign words in place of our own. Ataturk removed large traces of foreign words back to the original Turkish words this needs to be done again.
i cannot reallt get why you europeans always insinst that there is huge distinction in Turkey REPULIC. Don not everybody understand that Turks and Kurds are the brothers of the same family? there is no territory to define kurdish in turkey since kurds are also citicens of turkish republic. we are brothers and no superpowers can seperate us.
In addition to Murat's comment about adding to the EU's cultural diversity, Turkey is definitvely the most eligible nation for joining the EU (with the possible exception of Israel) in both the Middle East and North Africa. The Turkish economy is the 18th largest in the world, larger than Sweden, Norway, or Poland. The government is a secular democracy and oppressiong of the Kurds has decreased greatly. The reason Turkey is still occupying so-called Kurdish territory is because the Kurds have been attacking the rest of Turkey with terrorist attacks and Turkey is trying to defend itself. I have noticed a trend amoung some Europeans to put blame more often on those trying to fight terrorists than the people commiting terroism, especially if the nations suffereing under terrorist attacks are considered non-European (like Israel and the Palestines or Turkey and the Kurds). Give Turkey a chance and I am sure they will prove to be a valuable member to the EU.
"That is I suppose the point of those who say most of Turkey is not Europe. But I tell you there is an even more distinct lack of the North Atlantic. Not a drop of sea in sight, and none of the land is anywhere near that body of water. But I don't remember many protests when Turkey joined the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation."
There may be a lot of protests now about why Turkey is still a member of NATO. But Turkey needs both the NATO and the EU support, or at least a free hand, for the continued persecution of Kurds.
If Turks ever try to impose "an Armanian solution" on Kurds, responsibility and guilt for the crime will reach all the way to the North Atlantic.
I think if Kurdistan hadn't been part of Turkey, there would heve been less problems in acepting it in the EU.
Turkey (and so EU) would have had Kurdistan as its border, and it would have been a sort of half step, an open window on the Middle East... but actually for EU Turkey will mean putting both its feet in the Middle East... not an easy decision to take...
Anyway history and geography not always match in a linear and ideal way...
let's look what will happen...
Mardell wrote "most of Turkey is not [in] Europe." No kidding, only 3% of Turkey lies in Europe, making for reason #1 (of many) as to why Turkey does not belong in the EU. Mardell also tries to compare NATO with the EU, reminding us that Turkey was allowed into the former and therefore belongs in the latter. Apples and oranges. The USA and Canada are also in NATO, yet no one would seriously propose to allow either country to enter the EU. Turkey does not share Europe's values and does not belong in the EU, ever.
Mustafa 陌smet 陌n枚n眉 the 2nd president of turkey , 2nd father of the Turkish Republic, and the commander-in-chief during the Turkish independence war was half Kurdish. 20th prime minster of Turkey the 8th president in Turkey was Turgut 脰zal.Turgut 脰zal was also a Kurd. Knowing this information you would know that the Kurdish people are apart of Turkish history and culture. The Kurds in turkey are Turkish Kurds not Kurds because their culture is different from Iraqi Kurds and Iranian Kurds. They are also Sunni not Shiite and most of Kurds in Iraq and Iran are Shiite. I don't understand why people consider Turkish Kurds not apart of the Turkish Republic.
Terminating Turkeys accession would seriously damage the image of the European Union and would be in nobobys interest. By accepting Turkey we would be sending a signal to the rest of the world that we are not a christian club, but that we can work with islamic countries, provided they are secular democracies.
We need Turkey in order for the EU to get more power in its middle eastern foreign policy and to cement our position as the worlds number one regional integration forum.
Of course Turkey needs to reform heavily to join, and no one is talking about letting Turkey join in its current shape, but it would be a terrible mistake to shut the door on them, just as the reform process is showing visible results.
"there are many places, say, Van, bordering Iran, are as beautiful as landmarks in Europe"
i.e it's not in Europe. There are nice places in Australia, can it join the EU?
"i cannot reallt get why you europeans"
So we are distinct?
"oppressiong of the Kurds has decreased greatly"
Oh well then, as long as it has decreased. Do you want to pick on some small European country instead?
Another cracking post, Mr Mardell - although in view of recent tragic events , one supposes that we should always be grateful for returning to terra firma safely.
On a semi whimsical fantasy EU superstate I would like to moninate the following additional countries for membership once Turkey is in: Iran (the only way to stabilise the middle east); every country ending in stan with the exception of Pakistan which should be returned to India.
No a better idea lets disband the EU and join Russia. Oh dear, this game isn't easy, I guess the status quo will have to do.
Marcel, you say that the peoples of Europe are against Turkey joining the EU. But lets be clear here - YOU are against it. And SOME people in SOME countries are against it. I come from an EU country and I support Turkey joining the EU. So does an overwhelming majority of my countrymen. The politicians also support it (and no wonder - they were elected by the people with certain kind of attitudes and beliefs). So yes, Marcel, let the decision be made in a democratic manner. You might be surprised how wrong you are when you try to speak for the "peoples of Europe".
Of course Turkey will never join. France has promised a referendum before it happens and the Dutch voted the Constitution out largely for the same reason.
Dr. Plasnik (very tall Austrian Foreign Minister) also comprehensively outthought Condy's own poodle Jack Straw by getting special status for Croatia (Catholic part of Europe) in negotiations, while allowing those with Turkey (Muslim part of Asia) to "continue" secure in the knowledge that human rights abuses and the rise of Islamic parties in Turkey will grind those negotiations to a halt. We all know that Turkish entry is being pushed by UK at USA's behest, mostly to keep Europe wak and divided much as Rumsfeld tried with Old/New Europe.
thing about it logically and objectively.that land belongs Republic of Turkey not Kudistan not england or any other country,i dont understand why people are worrying about it so much.there are tens of people are dying in iraq everyday worry about them nobody kills kurds in Turkey.nor they complain about their living styles in Turkey,of course you can find people who is not happy about their lives all over the world.stop this double standart.is it ok if france kills the algerians.
If you want to follow the elections in Turkey, why did you go to southeast? What do you expect to find there? Also there is no Kurdish territory in Turkey. I have never heard of a Mexican territory in the USA even though there are lots of latinos in southern states, which make up the majority in some cities and towns. Have you?
In fact, it is not important whether Turkey is a part of Europe or not. Because, Turkey and Turks are already a living fact and the main actor of the region. They do not need to be approved. Of course there are some arid! and poor looking issues(about which we have a lot of comlicated reasons, too long to tell about) in our country which cause some people, like the author of the article and some commentators from Europe, make despising comments.
Please do not forget! We, The Turks, are friendly people. We are the friends of the friendly people. We pursue the peace in our country and in the world. We are again the hope of the history. Turks and Kurds and the others, all of us are brothers whether you take care or not. But, please take this serious that we do not care whether you see the Turkey in Europe or not. To win together or lose mutually. The choice is yours, maybe all of our(you and we) next generation.
Europeans aspiring for "Kurdish Independence" are using the argument to stall Turkey's EU bid. (As can be seen by Comment #3 - Marcel.)
The area designated for a Kurdish state is the poorest of the country and the GDP is the lowest. If for some reason their dream of a Kurdistan is achieved, then
1. Turkey would be a much richer country, her GDP would double overnight and be comparable to most EU countries
2. Giving cultural rights to "Kurds" would no longer be applicable as there wouldn't be any significant numbers left in Turkey.
3. Human Rights abuses and tortures would subside to EU levels.
4. Turkey would have a much higher percentage of land in Europe than today's %3, and still more than Cyprus which has NO land in Europe
5. Turkey's population would drop to Poland levels pre-EU.
6. Then throw in an agreement with Cyprus...
As you can see giving support for a free Kurdistan would make Turkey into a much better candidate to join the EU.
SO - you Turkophobics who , with a grin, support Kurdish Nationalism just so Turkey won't enter EU, are actually making it easier for Turkey to join the EU.
And of course you don't care about Kurds at all, since if they did form a country, they would never get into EU, and probably be a hotbed for poverty and terrorism.
Have a good day
some of the comments from the turks are baseless or they do not know their history, until when diyarbakir was a turkish land, the Kurds lived on that land, Kurdistan before the existance of turkey as a nation, so to the nationalists turks, please before you comments learn your history first
The EU membership is not so important for Turkey. More important is to get up speed on democracy, individual rights, economic growth, stability etc. As prime minister said "We could rename the Copenhagen criterias as Ankara criterias and move on..." Nobody in Turkey project to enter EU finally. At final, it will not have any meaning at all. Actually I'm not so sure whether there would still be a EU thing 10-15 years later. But when you guys talk about Turkey as a step-son, this gives a rise in opposition to EU. That is why the motto in famous rallies in big cities were "no USA, no EU, but the independent Turkey !". You're right only in few part of Turkey is European in culture, but things are changing so fast. You should go and see Diyarbakir and its people. It's now completely different compared to 10 years before.
If the Turks are Europeans or not in the present is meaningless. The question is wether they want to be Europeans. It's all about the future.
Personally I'm in favor of Turkey joining the Union (to say, as someone has posted here, that the peoples of Europe are against it is disingenuous - no one has really bothered to ask them, or to explain the situation to them).
Sure, Turkey in the Union will be a problem in some aspects, but it will be an opportunity to solve others, and Turkey out of the Union will mean pretty much the same problems and some quite serious new ones in addition.
This said, I think we have seen the end of the uniform, homogeneous Union, if the Euro, Schegen, etc. hadn't done that already. In the future the countries of Europe will probably be able to choose amongst several 'levels' of integration. Which one Turkey would want is first and foremost somewhat the Turks themselves should consider.
What Turks fail to understand is that if they join the EU, the Kurds will AUTOMATICALLY gain the right to self-determination. Just like in Montenegro all they would need is a referendum to break away from Turkey and merge with Iraqi Kurdistan to create the Kurdish republic.
There is nothing Turkey could do about it. Turks may argue they were promised EU accession back in 1963 but forget that Kurds were promised independence in 1921 only for it to be withdrawn in a shady deal between Ataturk, Britain and France.
Anyone who argues Kosovo or the socalled Palestineans should gain independence cannot in the same breath deny it to the Kurds.
Dear Mark,
The reason that people clap when arriving in Diyarbakir is that they are Kurds arriving back in their 'own country' after having suffered the indignities of everyday life in Western Turkey. There is very profound racism towards Kurdish people and to 'come home' is a relief. You have upset Turkish nationalists with your title of 'Deep in Kurdish territory' but the Kurds would of liked the title 'Deep in Kurdistan'. Its two country's as I'm sure you will find.
Turkey is one country where all your professionalism is needed not to take verbatim the line of the Turkish Psychological warfare dept.
Thank you and take care.
Diyarbakir is the capital of Kurdistan. Thanks for Mark Mardell for visiting us in Kurdistan, you are welcomed anytime.
As for Kurdish rights, just read the couple of comments made by a few Turks on this website. They claim that "Kurdish" does not exist in Turkey, therefore everyone is a Turk. I hope you wouldn't let such a nation join the EU unless they admit that Kurds exist in Turkey and they admit that there is a geographic region called "Kurdistan", that is where Kurds live.
Excellent report Mark. 10 out of 10
please remember that turkey is not one nation.if you go to istanbul and talk to old people they will tell you that the last 30 years their city has been 'occupied' by 'kiourts'(not kurds),they call like this the caukasian tribes living to the center and east of the country and became economic immigrants of istanbul.they also say that real turks live only in istanbul,the coast of Asia Minor and the european part of the country.they dont think they belong to the same nation with the rest,they consider them uncivilised.so an agressive foreign policy is needed by the hidden dictatorship that actually runs the country in order to keep united such a dangerous mix of different ethno-religious parties.
Turkey deserves to join the EU.
They have worked extremely hard to meet all the criteria required, more so than many countries already members.
They are a secular country, that is one where religion is not allowed to interfere with matters of state, something not even this country has.
The only reasons I have seen mentioned here for not allowing Turkey entry to the EU are ones based on racial/religious bigotry.
Turkey has form.
On the 20th of July 1974, Turkey launched a military invasion of Northern against Cyprus purportedly to restore constitutional order.
Turkey occupied 1/3 of the Island (the North), from which it ethnically cleansed Greek Cypriots.
A similar excuse will doubtless be used to justify the invasion of Iraq. Oil revenues, will of course have nothing to do with it.
Far from upsetting the USA, an invasion of Northern Iraq by their NATO allies and the establishment of a puppet Kurdish State, might suit them nicely.
Any invasion could be viewed as a 'fait accompli' which justified the creation of a 'Federal Iraq', with separate Sunni and Shia States, State-lets or Emirates.
No different to the 20th century break up of Colonial Ireland, India and lest we forget, the 'daddy of them all', the Ottoman Empire,
i think no one should vote for AKP, CHP and MHP because all of them have dangerous agenda-no rights to kurds. as a kurd i think turkey should join the EU but turkey should dramatically change its attitudes towards rights of 20 million kurds. some turks who allege that we are brothers and sisters. let me ask them a simple question why then as your kurdish 'brother' i can't speak my mother language which is kurdish and i am forced to speak your mother language which is turkish? there are lots of kurds who are in turkish jails and they are branded as terrorists (being tortured by the way) just because they speak god-given language, kurdish. i will accept to live with turks or any other nationality in turkey as long as that country is governed by true democratic values which would mean that i'll be able to speak kurdish.
As an outsider who has lived/travelled in both Turkey and various parts of Europe, to include Southeast Turkey and 'Kurdish' Iraq, I find it strange that everyone gets wrapped around the ideas that Turkey should or should not join the EU or that there was ever a great Kurdistan before. The EU as a whole has been good for some smaller countries but at the same time has been a burden on countries that are now wrapped in a beaucratic maze. Turkey simply is not European and after having lived there I would say is better off on its own as long as it can remain a secular democracy.
Many people forget very quickly that the areas of the various 'Kurdistans' in the Middle East have at most times in history belonged to the Armenian Christians or Assyrian Christians who have been pushed out by the various Islamic conquests and now fight to maintain their history despite the flood of nationalist propaganda from the Turks, Kurds, Arabs, or Persians. As in the Balkans and Egypt, the crescent and the sword have overshadowed or slashed the history of the original peoples.
"...until when diyarbakir was a turkish land..." Rezan R
Well Rezan we do know our history. You obviously don't. The modern name 'Diyarbak谋r' originates from an Ottoman Turkish Language name, which in turn was based on the Arabo-Persian name Diy芒r-i Bekr ('Land of the Bekr'). Composed of the word Diyar (丿賷丕乇), Arabic for region or district, followed by the Persian ezafe "-i" and Bekr (亘讴乇), it probably denoted the landholdings of the Arab Bekr tribe that settled in the area following the Islamic conquest in the 7th Century. After the Battle of Manzikert 1071, the city has been under the rule of the Mardin branch of Oghuz Turkish beylik (principality) of Artuklu. So Diyarbakir has been Turkish Land for 936 years. Please note that - if you still think your argument holds any water - this is much longer than USA which is built on the Native American Indian lands.
Mr Mardell.
Surely you mean DEEP IN IRAQI TERRITORY!
Or are you trying to isolate yourself as an ill informed journalist?
Surely, we the TV Licence payers are not funding this, are we?
You're having a laugh.....
If you read the Kurdish history, you see one thing. Kurdish people want a country, want a language, want a culture. But it could not be possible until now. They will work to achieve their aims, like the Greeks (Megalo Idea), English (Great Britain-they achieved), Turks (Ottoman-they achieved). One must consider the effects if Kurds will be successful or not? The mailn question is this. Success may come with a great leader like Churchill, M. Kemal, Napoleon, or so. Now, who could be the leader of Kurds? Ocalan (a baby murderer?), Barzani (a person managed by USA?), Talabani (managed by USA?). They need a great leader as other nations. But they do not have one.
The reality for a LOT of countries is that they exist on land they conquered from other peoples. Either recently, Australia or USA, or less recently like Turkey, but still in memory (plus some parts of Turkey are maybe Turkish "just" for the past 500 years or so).
The unsettling reality is that those conquerors who did the most savage job, killing off, displacing, or absorbing (cultural genocide) the local population, end up with the GREATEST claim to the land... simply because there is no, or not enough, original inhabitants left to dispute the claim. This is a practical fact. Once a people disappear or nearly so, so does their claim. Genocide seems to pay off in the long term... at least so far in history.
In their conquests the Turks have managed to do the above in Western Turkey. That land is for all practical purposes theirs for as far into the future as they manage to hold on to it, before they are displaced themselves.
Kurdistan on the other hand is not like Western Turkey. The people, the culture, the language is alive and well, and so in great numbers. The Kurds were there before the Turks, and they are still claiming their land, so it belongs to the Kurds. It is a fact just as it is a fact that Turks have been in Turkey for many hundreds of years.
Languages mix, words are borrowed, peoples move about and mix in various ways. Quoting place names by itself does not prove or disprove ownership.
Very similar stories have happened all over the world. Similar principles seem to apply.
Re "Turkey has form" by John Evans.
Turkey was a guarantor power, along with Greece and Great Britain, of the Republic of Cyprus. It had a right, and a duty, to intervene in a situation of unrest, as did the other guarantor powers.
The "Greek Colonels" military dictatorship, led by Brigadier General Demetrios Ionnides instigated a coup against the legitimate Cyriot government,led by Archbishop Makarios, in July 1974. They then installed a thug called Nicos Sampson, who definitely had form as a terrorist(EOKA and EOKA-B) and proved to be a very effective ethnic cleanser.
Turkey`s Prime Minister(Bulent Ecevit) tried hard to get Britain to join Turkey in opposing the Greek Junta, without success. It was only after this attempt at coordinated action that Ecevit ordered the Turkish Armed Forces to intervene.
It should also be pointed out that the Turkish intervention led to the collapse of the military dictatorship in Athens, the return of Konstaninos Karamanlis and the restoration of Greek democracy, and the beginning of Greece`s EU accession process.
I am not going to argue that the continued Turkish military presence on the island is helpful,it is not. However, were I a Turkish Cypriot,that presence would have to be balanced against other factors.
These include: the continued refusal of the Greek Cypriots to compromise; the wilful denial of the fact that they set out to make the founding constitution unworkable; the mad plan (Geography and flight times for Greek and Turkish fighter jets) for "Enosis"(Union with Greece); the Akritas plan and the massacres of Christmas 1963; Greek Cypriot insistence that somehow 66% of the island`s total population is a persecuted minority.
Finally, the behavior and rhetoric of the current President(Mr Tassos Papadopolous) during the last UN sponsored referendum and subsequently in Europe, would give a Turkish Cypriot pause. The UN envoy publicly charecterised Mr Papadopolous as "a liar".
MacTurk.
Mlada Boleslav,
Czech Republic
I am amused by this discussion and specifically the claims based on "who was there first". For argument's sake, it was probably the Greeks who have spent the most time in Western Turkey, should the Greeks then claim this land? Probably not. Perhaps we should focus on the facts on the ground and RECENT history... Kurds deserve a state, as they comprise about 20% of the Turkish population, most of whom live on their "historic" Kurdistan region. They have also endured a significant amount of oppression from Turkish civilization (similar to the Greeks but not even close to the genocide endured by the Armenians). It is also my opinion that Turkish culture has no place in Europe. Europeans who favor Turkey in the EU, despite their optimism, tend to have an unrealistic understanding of oppressive Turkish AND Ottoman treatment of non-Turks over the centuries right through the modern age.
Mardin branc of Oghuz? Marwanid, (990-1085), was a Kurdish dynasty in Northern Mesopotamia and Armenia, centered around the city of Diyarbak谋r. This was before this "Turkish takeover". There have been also several Kurdish dynasties in Amed/Diyarbakir during the Ottoman empire. The majority of the province of Diyarbakir has been Kurdish since ages, while the main rulers were the Ottomans/Selcuks/etc (Ottomans weren't completely Turkish, Turk was a bad word for backwarded peasents, Ottomans never called themselves Turkish). Btw, the first people to use the name Kurdistan were the Selcuk Turks, who gave the name Kurdistan to the regions inhabited by Kurds. Also Evliya Celibi calls the current southeast Kurdistan. There were also under the Ottomans several Kurdish semi-independent sancaks/provinces/emirates. Including Diyarbakir. Arguments that Kurds never have experience with governing/politics are groundless. There have been several Kurdish emirates, dynasties, politicians and rulers.
@ Martin (31): so you completely ignore 2 facts.
1) Turkey is 99,9% non-European
2) the vast majority of 'Europeans' do NOT want them in (for any reason)
I don't care what argument you use, but until Kurdistan gets its historic right to independence, I am 100% opposed to the accession of those who continue to occupy Northwest Kurdistan, oppress the local populace and suppress Kurdish culture.
Besides, Turkey is secular in name only. And I don't feel like paying taxes to subsidize their farmers. And I particularly don't want their politicians to have a say in our legislation.
To Hevallo Azad:
You claim "There is very profound racism towards Kurdish people" and "arriving back in their 'own country' after having suffered the indignities of everyday life in Western Turkey" makes people happy. What profound racism and indignities are you referring to ?! Maybe that one of having one of their people prime minister of Turkey (Turgut Ozal), or even president of the republic (Ismet Inonu) ?! Get real ... your claims are ridiculous to everyone that knows a bit of history.
Turkey is not and never will be European. They refuse to acknowledge atrocities they have commited in the past, and still wont acknowledge the Patriarche of the Greek Orthodox Church. Yet we Europeans are suppose to embrace them with open arms??? How is it we should be open to them when they still wont be open with us.
#33 rodi says that they cannot speak their mother tongue in turkey? this is nonsense. because every kurd in turkey is allowed to speak their own language but the main difference is that they are not allowed to study in kurdish. this has many reasons; the main reason is that there are not only kurds as minority in turkey there are also lazs, circassians, zazas etc in turkey and if all minorities are allowed to study in their mother language then racist problems will occur since turkey is not an empire but republic. turks in germany are also not allowed to study in turkish in state schools the are they also behaved as terrorists? but i know what you propaganda is. no matter you study in kurdish or not some separatists will urge that they are not given their rights. i knew so many kurds who are happy to live together. they know what it is like to be brothers. indepedent candidates of kurds are allowed to take part in parliamentary !!! they are kurds and kurds are allowed to be elected then what are you talking about by saying that kurds are not given their rights. the main right is to be free and kurds are free to be both to elect and to be elcected. BUT if any one chooses to use guns then it is them who limits the right. i can say that i am turk and i am not nationalist but i am not allowed to travel to diyarbak谋r but all of the kurds are allowed to live in istanbul. if i attempt to travel to 艧谋rnak then i get %80 shot to death because i am turk. so let me ask a question then who are not given rights turks(who are not free to travel to 艧谋rnak) or "separatist" kurds?
To marcel:You said 'Stop the occupation!'If we compare the occupation in Iraq,due to the ridiculous reasons by the U.S and U.K,with your baseless occupation claim of Kurdish territory,which is in reality Turkish land, the former one is the real occupation,invasion of the lands..Are u opposed against the invasion of Iraq?or you only claim these arguments because of the fact that you are biased against Turkey?As a country whose ethnic structure is complex,every ethnic group may have problems.In my opinion,as a democrat person 谋 personally believe that these problems must be dealt with by talking in a democratic way not by demanding territory if the real problem is about the Kurdish rights or their facing with difficulties...
On the other hand,many Europeans believe that the only solution of this kinda problem is seperation of Kurds from Turkey..However,if it happens,could u believe that all the problems would be solved by this way?OF COURSE,not..There are some other solutions to this problem other than division of Turkey...A session for this problem would be arranged.The two parties could try to reach an agreement based on a peaceful frame.They would explain their unrest to each other.They would criticise each other.If it necessiates,they must do self criticism.At this point,concessions about territory wouldnt come two parties to an agreement.It's the reality that must be realized by people all around the world.If your country had a problem like this one,would you feel or think to find solutions in that way?
At last but not least,in Turkey majority of citizens dont support the policy of joining in EU.We aren't dependent on EU.We have an economy which is growing up day-to-day.We have much workpower which could lead to an increase in industrial sector.Our troops,called Mehmetcik,are well-trained and the second greatest army of the world.That means they are a prohibitive factor for countries whose purposes are to divide the country into different nations.However,this military's main perspective or principle is to keep the peace at homeland and the world.They are always ready for a possible war but this doesnt mean that they're preparing for a great military operation in the northern Iraq.On the other hand,if there are some obvious threats to the unity of the country they must be given the right of defence.To illustrate from the world,the coalition troops ,leaded by the U.S and U.K,didnt have the right to make an operation in Iraq.They invaded this country,brought there bloody explosions,sufferings.However,YOUR PRESIDENTS are trying to hide the fact by claiming that Iraqi people are a threat.In fact,dead Iraq people werent guilty and didnt kill Americans.Turkey's situation is totally different.The Kurdish Worker Party(PKK)killed many Turks in the southeast of Turkey to prove that this part of country belongs to Kurds.We lost 30000 innocent people whose ages are between 0-70 due to this terrorist group attacks on us.Moreover,they sometimes killed also Kurds with Turks but the reason why they have been acting like that is to gain the democratic rights of Kurds according to these guerillas(PKK).In contrast,the method they follow doesnt bring a solution.I m A MEMBER OF GREENPEACE AND AGA陌NST THE ALL K陌NDS OF WARS.LET'S TRY TO SOLVE THE PROBLEMS PEACEFULLY!!LIKE ATATURK,THE GREATEST TURKISH LEADER,SAID:''PEACE AT HOME,PEACE IN THE WORLD''WE TURKS ALWAYS LOVE KURDS AND WE HAVE BEEN LIVIN TOGETHER FOR MANY CENTURIES.I AGREE UNDERSTAND THEIR RIGHTS OF SPEAKING THEIR OWN LANGUAGE,LIVIN ACCORDING TO THEIR OWN CULTURE,SO ON.AT THE SAME TIME I BELIVE THAT THIS DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY COULD BE CREATED BY TALKINGS NOT BLOODY ACTIONS OR DEMANDING TERRITORIES..
I'm a Kurd from Northern Iraq. To be honest, the Kurds aren't treated anything like the Turks are in Turkey (supposedly, "The Republic of Turkey" which doesn't promise Democracy).
Kurds can't even speak Kurdish there and,yet, they claim that Kurds and Turks are "brothers".
Kurds have right to independent Kurdistan just as Turks have right to independent Turkey.
Ishmael, #39, who was there first depends on how far into the past you look. Though, I think we have the same sentiment... posession is 9 tenths of the law here.
All these empires grew and shrank repeatedly, and the lands were under rule of different ones at different times. Though what matters is that Kurds are a nation BIGGER than most European countries right now and right there, and yet they do not have a country of their own... or even an autonomous region.
What matters to the Europeans is that some kind of shotgun wedding is being arranged between EU and Turkey... and both sides to the deal have their doubts about it. Why does EU need to extend into the Middle East? What kind of advantage does it get? The only advantage I can think of is Armenia and Georgia joining EU as well after Turkey provides a continuous EU to those two. Both Armenia and Georgia being of European culture, if not by the current geographical definition of Europe.
As for the disadvantages of Turkey joining... EU would inherit their problems, the Kurds, the Islamists and Turkish nationalists, the Armenians, the disputes with Cyprus... and an EU border with Iraq, Syria, and Iran... God (or fates if you prefer) help us all!
If geography is an obstacle against Turkish entry to the EU, how could Cyprus join the EU?
It is very informative listening to the Turkish point of view here. If before I had any doubts, I would now say I do not want Turkey in the EU. Probably never... but that is a very long time... so definitely not any time soon.
First step to a solution is acknowledging a problem exists. I do not think even this much has been accomplished so far.
If EU wants Armenia and Georgia to join, they can be linked via the Black Sea shipping from Romania and Bulgaria who already are EU members, bypassing Turkey.
In general I support the Kurdish cause, i.e. freedom of speech, freedom of education in Kurdish, etc. However, I do not feel sorry for the displaced Kurds. In the 60s, the village where my father was born had to merge with 7 (seven) neighbouring villages so that the state could bring electricity, water, health services, and education to its citizens. Although, the displacement in the Kurdish areas is mainly induced by the army for security reasons, it is similar to what happened to my father's village, i.e. the need of state presence.
Turkey is a relatively poor country, and we do not have money or resources to bring services to every single village (a village in this context is a collection of a small number of houses). If my father's family went through displacement volonteerly so that they can be part of the larger society, I don't see why certain Kurdish villages shouldn't go through the same processes. At the end of the day, they need electricity, water, jobs, security, health services, and most importantly education (in Kurdish or Turkish).
It might sound very cruel, but imagine a simple scenario where a pregnant woman dies only because the roads are blocked with snow and she can't get to the medical centre in time. This is a common winter time occurrence in Eastern Turkey.
@Marcel 42
"
1) Turkey is 99,9% non-European
2) the vast majority of 'Europeans' do NOT want them in (for any reason)
"
While 2 is a valid point, and shouldn't be ignored, we are a democracy after all, 1) is racism pure and simple, and I cannot see how it is anything else.
Are the many black, Asian and Arab people living in the EU already, as EU citizens, not European either? Should we throw them out and only permit white Christians into our lands? Just how do you define 99.9% of Turkey as "not European" could it be their skin colour? their religion?
It can't be geography; Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Bulgaria and Romania are all as east as Turkey, and their "east-ness" certainly extends to a sizeable proportion of the Turkish population, should you wish to draw a line through turkey. Not to mention that Cyrpus, also a member, is currently the furthest east, and about half-way along the width of Turkey.
I am certain that a lot of the aversion to Turkey is nothing other than racism. Your point seems to support my view.
I resent ignorant comments by NON-TURKISH KURDS and westerners about treatment of Kurds in my country. I am part Kurdish and I have never witnessed any kind of racism in Turkey against Kurds, not against myself nor Kurdish members of my family and friends. In fact even after decades of conflict with terrorists, a distinction is always made between Kurds and the PKK. The only racism I can see is in some blogs, from SELF-DECLARED 鈥榗ivilized鈥 westerners who are deluded enough to believe they are entitled to decide who is European and who is not. You may get to vote on who gets into the European Union, but NOT on who IS European.
How would you define European I didn鈥檛 realize there were criteria for that 鈥 other than geography!! Of course, geographically Turkey is European 鈥 also Asian - but European NONETHELESS. We are what we are, Easterners, Westerners, Europeans, Asians, we are all here and racist remarks from outsiders is not going to change anything.
Now, EU is a whole other ball-game. Any rational argument based on social, economic, population, migration concerns in regard to Turkish MEMBERSHIP in the EU are completely valid. Rejection of Turkish membership based on any such reasonable criteria would be understandable. Unfortunately, much of the rhetoric on this and other forums 鈥揳nd by top European politicians- hinge on irrational (cultural, religious, racial) identity-based arguments. It baffles me that although there are plenty of realistic economic arguments one can make against Turkish membership, people choose to go for cultural arguments, which are (ironically) inconsistent with Western-Liberal ideals. After all, if you are making the argument that Turkey does not belong in Europe because much of its population chooses to believe in Islam 鈥 or because of their ethnic background - there is an obvious contradiction with liberal pluralist ideals which EU purports to stand for. Perhaps some the Europeans who are not as 鈥楨uropean鈥 as they think.
Second issue: Kurdish independence. Anyone with an IQ above 0, would realize the utter absurdity of something like that 鈥 honestly I can鈥檛 even believe some people think this is plausible. All the romantic aspirations of independence aside, breaking down nations is always harmful and difficult but lets just assume by some miracle a Kurdistan was formed in eastern Turkey:
Firstly, Kurds are not the only people that live in eastern turkey, there are Arabs, Turks, Suryanis etc鈥. what if they want their independence from Kurdistan 鈥 who is to deny that?
Second, who defines the borders of Kurdistan, there is no unified historical nation with borders 鈥 when you see a map that shows 鈥楰urdistan鈥 in eastern Turkey, those borders are drawn based on location of small Kurdish-speaking villages, dispersed in that geography, where they don鈥檛 represent a homogenous majority. Third, most Kurds in turkey live in Istanbul, not in eastern Anatolia and I doubt they would leave to go back to relatively poor east.
Four, could a landlocked country in eastern turkey surrounded by mostly antagonistic nations (they will certainly get no sympathy from Turkey, Syria, or Iran) expect to prosper? 鈥 I think not.
Five, would they have any effective leadership or government to establish a functioning democracy 鈥 or would they just roll back into a pseudo-feudal, repressive system鈥atter is more likely.
Who still supports the irrational objective of an independent Kurdistan?
Martin # 52... It is not racism to argue that some people are different in a way that would not work well together. This is not about geographical location of Turkey, but about their history, culture, world views, attitudes, opinions, etc. Not all relationships can work.
It is not about race, as Turks are not much different to other South Europeans... and as you said there are all kinds of people already living in the EU. It is about cultural differences.
I think there is NO advantage for EU to have Turkey in the union... and a lot of potential liabilities.
It is a straw man attack to label as racist all who oppose Turkey joining the EU. It is simply not true.
P.S. Cyprus joined the EU because Greeks and Greece are European.
@ Martin (52): you must be a leftist of some sort. When all else fails, charge your opponent with racism or fascism. A typical leftist trait.
What I meant (and what you perfectly understand) is that 99% of Turkish TERRITORY is outside Europe. The historic borders of Europe are the Ural Mountains, the Caucasus, what is now the Bosporus and the Mediterranean.
Therefore, Belarus and Ukraine ARE European, and Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan and Turkey are not. I will concede that Cyprus isn't either.
You see, this thing is called the EUROPEAN union. Not the European and Asia Minor Union. What will you people suggest next? Allow Morocco and Syria to join?
Irrational objective of Kurdistan? I have to simply laugh at such attitudes... This was exactly the same main justification for partitioning my own old country... but that happened a few hundred years ago in Europe. Some Turks at least still think this way TODAY... while asking to join the EU... sighh...
Kurds in Norther Iraq are doing quite well... so I think a Kurdish state would do well. Kurds have kind of proven they can run their own affairs... maybe as others have mentioned this is the reason for Turkey's military build up. It seems the Kurds have problems only in Turkey in this regard... I wonder why?
I wonder if a Greater Kurdistan would not make a better and less troublesome ally than Turkey. If the West supported a free Kurdistan, would he Kurds repay the support? Maybe the Kurds could eventually join the EU... and they have oil too! All fanciful ideas... but would be nice if they were possible.
As for history and current view points, all one has to do is search google, there is a LOT there, for example:
1- Turkey has much higher percentage Land in europe than southern cyprus ( cyprus has no land in europe )
2- my father is kurdish, and Kurdish people in Turkey has same rights as any Turkish citiizen. Today kurdish origin citizens has a political party, many MP's in the parliament, freedom to speech and everything.
we even had a kurdish prime minister !
3- Spain is memeber of EU and Spanish government banned basque party because of their seperatist links
;
Basque nationalists have been banned from launching a new political party after a Spanish judge said it was a cover for the banned group Batasuna and ETA Terrorists.
4- unfortunately some european media and journalists today supporting so called kurdish nationalism, seperatist pkk bombings and terror instead of supporting strong, unite, fully democratic, secular modern Turkey........!
Baris (57), we are not fooled.
Most of the time, Turkey deliberately provokes the Kurds in order to get them to commits acts of terror.
And think about it, what would you do to an occupier who denied you the independent country that millions of your kin dream of and oppressed your culture and denied you full language rights?
No, Kurdistan must (and will) be independent, free of Turkish oppression.
And of course, the Basques, Catalunyans, Scots too, if they want it, to be free of Spanish/English oppression.
You will see that there are differences between the Kurds and the Scots/Catalunyans/Basques.
I am a Turk from eastern Turkey and I feel close to Kurdish culture much more than I would feel towards the Aegean. I have many Kurdish relatives and we never felt any animosity towards each other. Kurds are very generous and wonderful people and Turks and Kurds have lived many centuries side by side. What Turkey needs is to correct its past mistakes and to allow Kurdish language and culture flourish within democracy and liberty.
I find the comments of Turco-phoebes in this site rather offensive and absurd as if they have the moral authority to judge and sell the parcels of the world. Maybe you find China too big and powerful as well? How about an independent Uyguristan, Mongolistan and Tibetistan?
Turkey is a big, beautiful and rich country; it is the oyster of everybody. Every corner of that land belongs to Kurds as much as Turks and many other ethnic identities. Why should we live in shoe boxes while giant super states like US and EU are proving to be more beneficial? I would even suggest that Turkey should have a bilateral arrangement with the northern Iraqi Kurdish regime so that they remain prosperous and safe. We all know that Americans will leave sooner of later and they will be left with hostile neighbours.
Two separatist PKK terrorists were killed when a fuel tanker they were planning to ram into a military outpost in a suicide attack exploded before they could approach, officials said on Sunday.
Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) terrorists came to a private mine in southern Turkish province of Hatay and torched eight vehicles on the premises.
The terrorists arrived to the mine located in Hatay's Kisecik village, took the mobile phones from the workers, torched the vehicles and fled the scene.
Three Turkish soldiers were killed on Saturday by a landmine set by PKK terrorists in Turkey's eastern Tunceli province, security forces said.
and many many and many examples like above....
Kurdish policy is that shouts Turkish troops but says they are shouting us.
it's very sad to kurdish supporters..
i am a Kurd from Turkey and i am working in the construction industry.
i just don't understand some people who post messages here (especially the ones from outside Turkey)
it seems like they are more keen to see kurds seperated from Turkey than us Turkish-Kurds here !
i just want to say that majority of Kurds in Turkey have no plans for seperation and does not support pkk or any other ethnic terrorism and violence as Kurds in Turkey also suffered from pkk's violence.
pkk, has been putting pressure on Kurds in Turkey to make sure Kurds not sending their children to school, pkk militants attack construction sites, pkk force kurdish business people to pay protection money and try to run kurdish estates with gangsterism.
Turks and Kurds are mixed in Turkey and there are other ethnic groups and different religions all living together.
my son is getting married with a girl from izmir , western-aegean part of Turkey, and nobody ever thinks that "oh he is kurdish" or "oh no she is Turkish"..we do not have this kind of divided society or problems here.
previous governments made big mistakes to approach kurdish issue in Turkey but especially last 10 years everything is different ; we are free to talk and write in kurdish, there will be many kurdish origin MEP's in the new parlement etc.
and pkk was disappeared after the year 2000-2001 because of the reforms led by AKP government and economic succcess, but it seems like pkk or royals to the ex-pkk is reborn again, and many people thinks this is just because of the American invasion of iraq and situation of the nortnern iraq.
there are still alot to be done in Turkey, human rights needs to be improved, permanenet solutuions for unemployment needed etc.
as a kurd in Turkey, my dream is to see Turkey as a Land of tolerance and peace and good example for the other countries in the region.
Kurds, Turks, Muslims, Christians, Alevis, Jews, Laz, Cerkez, Arabs, Azeris, Bulgars, Gypsies all together.
kind regards
M. BAYRAM
What is a European? Blonde, blue eyed? Have you ever seen a Greek and a Turk next to each other? Most times, you can not tell the difference, and perhaps even mistake them for each other. Or Italians? Guess they are not European neither. Poor Spanish, Portugeese. Not Arian enough. And what IF we looked like Arabs? Or have been 'black'? People with like mind said 'Heil' a few decades ago. If that is your idea of 'European' union, to hell with it.
hello everyone..i just would like to ask ..because there are lots of kurdish live in diyarbakir(it is diyarbakir,do i call newcastle with a different name,be respectfull please)it should be another country...?soo there are 3 millions turkish in germany,in 50 years time it will be 5 m...what if they ask for freedoom?want to have indepented land in middle of germany!!!or harringey in london in 100 years time...regards
I do not know why we bother at all with these so called EU nations,especially the french and the germans,that we would like to join their societies.They do not like us and we do not like them.It is really our own fault not getting off our butts and bring Turkiye(Turkey)to the highest achievable levels in every sense of the economic and political and the military zenith so that instead of us knocking at the doors of these banal and the square-head nations,they should come and knock our door for support instead.Perhaps when one day either the Russians or the chinese invade EU,they will come to us to use our soldiers as cannon fodder!And we wiil perhaps show them the door.History never stays calm.
there is something I do not understand. Why 91热爆 calls terrorist organization PKK as Kurdish rebels? Does 91热爆 think himself as a republic separate from England? If so, what sould be done in order for 91热爆 accept PKK as a terrorist organization?
Finally PKK (KONGRAGEL) is a terrorist organization.Although 91热爆 does not accept it, EU, GB and US accept this fact.
Now, I want to say something else. Mr Erdogan is again in the driving seat once more in my most suffering Turkiye. It really has amazed me the potential crassness has been shown by the 49% voters who have taken part in this theatre of ridicule and voluntary Harakiri! The problem is that my people are so obdurate,so cowardly and so unindependent and equally so benighted in the way which they walk,think,evaluate(if they ever do),speak,get into intelligent and sense making discussions in order to be able to see what really lies beyond the hill,so to speak. With this election results we will suffer more of course. It seems that we are on our feet(just about)by the consent of our money lending neighbours and the American directives. This was never the ideal vision of Ataturk after we had won our independence.
Time has worked against us or rather our chosen so called experienced politicians have done their worst so far and we are still never the wiser.
It may seem a kind of political euphoria for the AKP at present. We will wait and see holding our breath with certain anticipation whether or not a time bomb has been planted among our nation and whether or not lt will implode and then explode within this period of the new but repeated leadership.
Once upon a time, the deposed and then hanged Adnan Menderes and his mates were so confident and their untimely euphoric take overs sent them to the gallows! Turkish History on this score has a soft belly.And the redneck voters have the insatiable appetite to feed the nation to the gallows quite often. Or should I say to the dungeons.Of course I am speaking metaphorically here,but who can say that an actual gallows will not be built one day if the country is drawn towards the SEVR TREATY conditions,God forbit!I am worried that The Islamists,the Kurdish Separatists,and the EU vultures can easily help explode that planted bomb which all our enemies are keenly waiting for. The whole idea is to push the Turks back where they had come from in the first place..I do not think it will be possible as long as we still have strong believers in Ataturk.WE have enough numbers to sacrifice for the cause.Our enemies can be very sophisticated and cunning but we have the will to stand up against the aggressors whichever direction they may come from.WE do not want to invade,but we are being invaded.So our self-defence is only natural.
I, too have noticed that 91热爆 (along with many other media sources) refer to PKK as a "workers party" or group of rebels whereas they are simply a terrorist organisation. Also, the southeastern region of Turkey is NOT kurdistan. Such a place does not exist, except maybe in northern Iraq. Even that is a stretch though. 91热爆 and its' writers, please be more respectful in the future, because these terms are offensive to most Turks. In other words, you need to start calling it like it is, and perhaps not how you'd like it to be...
Cagatay # 67... well I have also noticed Turkey is listed under the European section of 91热爆... so as you see they never get it quite right. NO I am not serious about this request... but at least I have a factual argument to base it on.
As for Kurdistan, you simply wrong. Kurdistan is maybe 4 to 5 thousand years older than Turkey.
What I think Turkey needs at some point is a proper referendum in Kurdistan on what people there want. Unpressured, unbiased, referendum on what the Kurds want fot themselves... because what Turks say on all of this, I no longer believe even a little.
I think the history will repeat itself, as Baghdad was Ottoman empires eastern capital. People of Iraq will choose Turkey over any other nation as we are strong and fair. Iran, Turkey and Syria will snap any land left uncontrolled once USA leaves Iraq. Kurds are like gipsies, like living in mountains. They can not be changed. The Turks are not european is an interesting discussion, depending on the angle you look. Istanbul was a capital of roman empire for some time in the history. Troy and its remaining generations who still live in Turkey are related to people who established Rome according to many archeolgists (aeanes). Of course some brainwashed people will object to Turkey's accession to EU like they oppose to everthing else in their miserable lives. Lighten up, Turkey and its people are just trying to adopt democratic western ways rather than accepting hard islamic rules. Is that a bad thing to want????
There is no a free part in TURKIYE,(please do not refer to us as turkey any more since it is the name of a bird which is being devoured at Christmas by Christians! I do not like it a bit!)to be called KURDISTAN. Not yet any rate! It is also ever so doubtful if such a partition will ever be accepted without some bloodshed if and when it is pushed under our noses. I am sure ,like myself,when the military feels sure to step in,believe you me,they will again! They are just marking time.Watching with hawkish eyes and with patience.So do I for that matter. I suspect many of the Mr Mardell,enemies of the state will no doubt flee the country when the military steps in.I hope to meet them somewhere in Britain to give them a bloody nose for a certain measure. I am fuming with uncheckable desire to teach them a lesson they should not forget. TURKIYE is not on sale.They are trying their worst to undermine and destroy the legacy and the noble doctrines of our beloved soldier and the statesman ATATURK. Those who are contemplating to defiling the fame and the honour of him are very much mistaken. Some haples individuals did try that in the past but they perished in the end.If the gallows are to be erected one miserable day for these miserable and unspeakable traitors,my people should not look afar to find an executioner,for I shall be here waiting,at least holding my pen to the paper!See you in my next broadside!Mr Mardell please write your articles about us in such an illuminating fashion that for your English readers especially,they should be left in no doubt that we are not an extremist Musluman country where by we should be put in the same basket along with the TALIBAN and his cohorts nor will we ever become slaves for those who have been contemplating to conquer and divide us into several disconnected states so that TURKIYE will be no more. WE fought at the GELIBOLU,my god we will do it again!
Let the Americans and their supportes know that! Thank you for reading.
How much of the North Atlantic can you see from Kabul?
ROB ;
you are amazing, you are everywhere on the internet, campaigning against Turkey and Turkish people !
you are not a Kurd, you don't know us, you don't know what we want , what we think but you are writing and talking in the name of us (i am a Turkish Kurd by the way)
i do not know where you from but racism and hate will not get you anywhere.
but you are defending Pkk, you are defending terrorism, you want to see Turkey divided and you really want us Kurds to fight against Turkiye.
This will not happen Dear Mr Rob !
you idea is ; "my enemy's enemy is my best friend"
but imperialist provacators will not success !
Zozan # 72, so many labels you apply to me, and none of them is accurate. Perhaps you do not like what I say?
As to who I am, here I speak as a European about the idea of Turkey joining the EU.
If Turks want to join Europe, their problems in some way may become my problems as a European (and not just mine). So I get the right to speak on Turkey and Kurds, and why Turkey does or does not fit into Europe.
You can not expect Turkey joining Europe, and then Europe ignoring what Turkey does... or Europeans being told to shut up, or being called names, or racist, etc. A little taste of things to come... perhaps.
How far do you think Turkey will have to move on Kurds before it ever joins the EU?
If Turkey does not join EU, then as you say, it is not much of my business... maybe only as far as a human being who feels for a nation oppressed by another.
I do not support PKK. I support every nation's right to self determination, as far as they want self determination. This goes for the Kurds, and everybody else. It is a little personal because I come from a situation similar to the Kurds, but in a different part of the world, and live right now where something similar has been done in the past to a different group of people yet again.
By the way, the BIGGEST IMPERIALIST in this discussion is Turkey... just have to read the Turks' statements on how powerful Turkish military is, how Westerners sux, and how they are imperialists who will be sorry for undermining Turkey, blah, blah, and more blah... Turkey who has conquered or invaded many nations in the past. Who still occupies some of these peoples. So, defending Turkey by calling others imperialists and racist is a pot calling kettle names... kind of thing, only worse.
Frankly I am getting bored with the stonewall attitude from Turkish nationalists... and the only thing I wan to do with Turkey is a holiday perhaps and some good recepies for food.
i agree with comment 57 entirely.
We often go to Itsnabul as my mother in law lives there. She lives in a neighbourhood where many Kurds live, in Bagcilar. Whilst there we were invited to a Kurdish wedding where Kurdish was openly spoken and sung.Many of the local market holders are kurds and speak to eachother in kurdish . When i mentioned that i was given the impression that kurdish was forbidden to be spoken she said the idea was obsured and many neighbours speak in kurdish. I hae witnessed with my own eyes that there is no distinction or oppression where i was.
Dear Mr Mardell,
I wrote a comment for the number 72 on your list. It has not been published to this day,I wonder why? I was agreeing with Mr Zozan on a point about Mr Rob.If the selections constitute a kind of prejudice on your part in order what to choose to print as an answer,it is not OK by me!As long as there is foreign prejudice over us,I shall carry on my fight with tooth and nail as long as I am able to. So next time I expect you to publish my comments if you will! My deepest regards.
Hi I am a 31 years old Turkish woman. I spent 21 years of my life with my army officer father travelling in Anatolia. I have been to, Erzurum, Erzincan, Agri, Van, Tatvan, Bitlis, Malatya, Diyarbakir, Yozgat, Antalya, Izmir, Trabzon, Kastamonu, Ankara, Maras, Cankiri, Kirklareli, Edirne,Istanbul, Denizli,Ordu, Balikesir and it goes on.
I have friends from all over the country. My point is we are all this countries citizens. Kurds, Gurcus, Abazas, Lazs and Turks live everywhere in Turkey. However every region has got own problems and mainly economical problems. Some people want to turn these problems into nationality, identity problems. We have to work and help each other without judging our believes, backgrounds and identities. At the end of the day the people who lives on a same piece of land makes the land their country and themselves nation of that country. We have one piece of land and 75 million people and time to work for us.
Dear Mr. Mardell,
I believe I am not the first person to tell you that there is no land in Turkiye called the "Kurdish Territory." As a Turkish citizen, I am deeply offended by the title you chose to use.
The EU citizens better understand that the ethnically Kurdish people are not the victims in this country. Not long ago, we had our 8th president who was ethnically Kurdish and still now the Kurds have their representatives (whom they voted for) in the Turkish parliament. We have no objection to Kurds' seeking their rights in democratic ways.
However, for over three decades Turkiye has been dealing with PKK- a terrorist organisation recognised as such by Turkiye, the EU and the US. For those who might not know, PKK is composed of Kurdish separatists, who endeavour to create an independent Kurdish state (which claims territories from Turkiye) by resorting to violence. So far, we have lost more than 35,000 lives (the real victims) to this PKK terrorism.
As for the EU and Turkiye, I wish that in future time, you share with us your experiences that you would gather once again in Turkiye but this time somewhere in the western part of the country. I have been to several (western) EU countries already, and this I can tell you: it is not that different at all.
Firstly thanks Mr. Mardell to open such a interesting conversation, which we could never do in Turkey. It seems here some people have very clever politics to reject Kurdish reality and shown things from their window. Even some like a Zozan(72) who plays a free Kurd live in Turkey insist in Kurds have all rights. In Anatolia nobody feels has same right as Turkish people. Unfortunately Kurds they don鈥檛 have same opportunity to study (in their own language) as Turkish people. As in this conversation only Turkish people have priority and they even talk on the behalf of Kurds. That is why I feel I need to reply them.
I guess everybody in this conversation know very well there is a Kurdistan exist and shared between four countries, Turkey, Iran, Iraq and Syria and I am from Turkish occupied part of Kurdistan. Firstly they change our names then name of our villages and cities then even Latin name of Animals by removing Kurdish and Armenian words. This is a systematic politics to erase all the history of every culture, which had lived in Anatolia. Today Iraqi Kurds have more freedom than ever before in their history and are making big progress. That is the reason Turkey has plan to destroy it to avoid of beautiful example will be for other Kurds.
Violence and discrimination are regularly used against Kurds despite hopes that the EU accession process might encourage Turkey to improve their situation. However even language rights are still restricted. Kurds have never had right to do politics and some previous Kurdish members of parliaments spent years in jail or just murdered. The 8th President of Turkey Turgut 脰zal did he really died because of hearth attack? Nobody knows!
There is a simple way for Kurds either they will continue live like a slave under Turkish hegemony or they will continue fight for Kurdish freedom, for Kurdish rights.
"I guess everybody in this conversation know very well there is a Kurdistan exist and shared between four countries, Turkey, Iran, Iraq and Syria and I am from Turkish occupied part of Kurdistan." [#78]
I've noticed that you've somehow forgotten about RUSSIA occupying part of ethnic Kurdistan.
It wouldn't be due to Moscow's having armed and supported communist PKK for decades now, would it? ;-)
BTW. I've also noticed that EU enthusiasts promoting creation of a Kurdish state are strangely quiet on an issue of independence for Baskonia, Cataluna, Flamandia, Gaskonia, let alone...Scotland.
I wonder why that is.
In my opinion Turkey should join the European Union because of the following reasons.
Turks are Europeans:
The most Turks have a mixed, manly European, ancestry. Just 10%-30% of their genes in from the Oghun Turks. The main part of their genes is Anatolian, Arab, Kurdish or Greek.
Turkisch Culture is strongly influenced by European Culture.
Influence in the Near East:
Turkisch membership of the European Union will boost boost democracy in the region. It would also give us a lot of credit in the Near East (the European Union will no longer be seen as a Christian club).
Democracy and human rights:
Turkey will become more democratic because of the reforms they have to implend.
Human rights will improved (even more then they are improving now).
Economy:
Turkisch economy will be boosted. It will take +/- 5-10 years before Turkey is as rich as Western-Europe.
I estimate that Turkey will join the European Union between 2018-2020.
Over the past years, the situation for the Kurds have been approved a lot. They now have their own media and they are allowed to speak their own language. Please, do not think that ik support Kurdish seperatism or PKK, But I believe that if Turkey wants to join the European Union, they have to improve the rights of minorities. This also means that Turkisch Christians should be treated equally by the Turkisch government and that minority languages should be protected.
If you ask me idea of common European culture is highly debateable.What is called "european" culture is generally derived from Enlightment age and Industrial revolution and this culture is inherited by French, Brits and Germans later by Scandavians. Poland and other east europeans are definitly not from this culture. People get bashed when they talk about gay rights and polish constition has Virgin mary as president afaik. I went to Bulgaria with an expection of a modernized country but even its capital looks like a low income town with fake shiny glow from the casinos.
Somebody mentioned north iraq/kurdistan booming. I would advise him to look again only reason that region is getting richer is US working really hard on it. That area is getting richer because of foreign investment pointed by US as bribe to open new based and stay in iraq. If kurds don't agree with US all investment will be drained and all left to kurds will be economical crisis and angry neigbors.
projections from the last population demographics that include kurdish as a mother language points current populations is around 7.8 mil which is around 11% of pop. without adding assimilation as a factor. 20% is from cia factbook and I think we all know how cia bends "facts".
I think idea of nation is a imagined community so "kurdish" independency seems meaningless to me but if they want independence as a group of people and everybody votes for it I don't have any problem as long as they guarentee border control and paying back govermental spendings and projects-(tax they payed in the project years) That would be good for both them and republic. We would have higher standarts of living, less poverty, less votes for undemocratic islamic parties and so on.
Three comments:
1)Its silly for turks to argue turkey's membership of the EU with citizens of current EU members. Its the EU citizens vote that counts so why should we comment? (i'm turkish) they will make up their minds if and when their politicians let them...
2) That doesnt mean its ethical for EU states to mess Turkish statesman around, dangling disappearing carrots and waving sticks. Even though Turkey can only apply and hope for the best, EU members are still morally required to treat Turkey fairly and equitably in the process...
3) Kurds are economically integrated in turkey, most of them live in Istanbul, Izmir Ankara etc... I dont see how any of these federalist plans for independence would work without bringing the country to the brink of civil war.
cheerio
(82) If the reason Iraqi Kurdistan is getting Richer is US working really hard on it, the reason in Turkish Kurdistan getting more poverty, because Turkey working really hard on it. (I suggest you look at second and third Picture above in this page, they will tell you more than hundred words)
There is two big river Euphrates and Tigris from Kurdistan flowing down to Syria and Iraq, and for more water supplies to this area Turkey getting petrol from Kirkuk, which also mainly Kurdish city. Of course Kurdistan has much more natural recourses, may be this is not a matter to you but is matter to the politicians. So what Kurds get for exchange to natural recourses; are war machines, tanks and planes to bomb them?
Giving Arabs (Palestinians) one more country (they have already 22) makes more sense? Actually Kurds don鈥檛 need a country just we need a tolerance to our culture and real friendship. I think (hope) European Union is not just economical tights also the idea against nationality, which they suffered too much and caused two world wars. We don鈥檛 need to have same painful experience; it is enough we had and hope we will have same democratic level and live together in peace.
"If the reason Iraqi Kurdistan is getting Richer is US working really hard on it, the reason in Turkish Kurdistan getting more poverty, because Turkey working really hard on it."\ [#84]
And the reason Ankara has spent hundreds of millions of $$$ on gigantic Ataturk Dam is?....
(85)
May you should also think how much $$$ Ankara get by selling electricity to Syria and North Iraq?
When Ankara introduced this project, gave us big hope by supply water for agriculture in south-east Turkey/Kurdistan. Currently water supply is working very well but for whom. I hope you also know lord of Siverek 鈥淪edat Bucak鈥. Now some channel of Atat眉rk dam is supplying water to his (drug) fields. Last decades he extend his border and he has more than teen thousands men. It is incredible in 21st and Turkey still has middle age feudalism. And where is the Kurdish Farmers? Unfortunately Turkey in desperate situation, therefore needs Bucaks men to fight against Kurdish Rebels want to remind you that even they used Hezbollah!
At the moment Ankara also plans to build 8 more water dams in Tunceli/Natural park Munzur valley, That means destruction of one of biggest natural beauty in Turkish-Kurdistan and force to move out rest of population.
Thanks for their kindness but we dont need so much water dams. I hope you also sensible may not for people of this geography but at least to protect this areas natural beauty.
(85)
May you should also think how much $$$ Ankara get by selling electricity to Syria and North Iraq?
When Ankara introduced this project, gave us big hope by supply water for agriculture in south-east Turkey/Kurdistan. Currently water supply is working very well but for whom. I hope you also know lord of Siverek 鈥淪edat Bucak鈥. Now some channel of Atat眉rk dam is supplying water to his (drug) fields. Last decades he extend his border and he has more than teen thousands men. It is incredible in 21st and Turkey still has middle age feudalism. And where is the Kurdish Farmers? Unfortunately Turkey in desperate situation, therefore needs Bucaks men to fight against Kurdish Rebels want to remind you that even they used Hezbollah!
At the moment Ankara also plans to build 8 more water dams in Tunceli/Natural park Munzur valley, That means destruction of one of biggest natural beauty in Turkish-Kurdistan and force to move out rest of population.
Thanks for their kindness but we dont need so much water dams. I hope you also sensible may not for people of this geography but at least to protect this areas natural beauty.
Heidar as the poster above me said If Turkey wanted region getting poorer why would it spend millions in projects like GAP(Huge irrigation systems and special no tax zones to create agriculture based industry). You should think about why some people in the region is incredibly rich (tribe leaders, sheikhs) while majority is poor. And Turkey doesn't want "kurds" to get poor because it is the main reason of the biggest social problem in Turkey, immigration.
Most of the immigration is from south-eastern Turkey and eastern turkey specificly sivas region. People immigrate to big cities but don't leave their life styles they generally work in labor intense low paying jobs or they directly get in to criminal life. Even some families in SE turkey rent their children to criminal organizations where children train in ways of stealing. (they prefer children because they can't be convicted).This immigration creates unemployment crime and racism towards the immigrants. So Turkey is actually prefer a richer SE Turkey.
About Kirkuk.. it is definitely NOT a Kurdish city. It was a asyrian capital in ancient times. Assyrians are still living there. Then araps came then the turks. Kurds are living AROUND the city in rural areas and so on but city itself was a Turkish city. If you look at last population count that Baas didn't change you will see 60% turkmen pop. in city. And they are all middle-class and upper class city dwelers. It is historically a Assyrian city, it was a Turkish city before Saddam and it is now changed to a kurdish ciy with kurdish immigration.
Re # 77 And #78
I recall that before Ankara has allocated billions of dollars (that's billions with "B") for the Great Anatolian Project communist PKK claimed that Turkish government wants ethnic Kurds to dwindle and wither and that's why it doesn't want to irrigate that wretched arid land.
[been there, seen that, from Van to Hakkari to Sirnak].
Now, they complain that Turks want to drown them.
BTW, for the uninitiated. There's no such race/etnic group as 'Turks'.
"Turkish" is a nationality. Ethnically Turks are a mixture of Hitties, Seljuks, Mongols, Hazars, Laz, Tartars, Circassians, Kurds, Assyrians, etc., with a significant Nordic (Vikings), Anglo-Saxon (Crusaders) and Slavic (Balkan) contribution to their genetic pool. They are united by a common concept of Turkishness as defined by Kemal Pasha. They'd rather be united than diveded by playing a racial/ethnic card. And yes, that includes Kurds owning some of the biggest construction companies and shipyards in Istanbul.
Comments on 88.
Firstly you should not change or cut my sentence, please read complete sentence, you will see it was an answer to somebody who claimed reason of economical progress of Iraqi Kurdistan is USA. My reply was a simple logic rule seems I need to explain you in more details;
here we have two propositions,
p = 鈥淭he reason Iraqi Kurdistan is getting Richer is US working really hard on it鈥
q= 鈥淭he reason in Turkish Kurdistan is getting more poverty, because Turkey working really hard on it鈥
We can show this in logic with conjunction (p ^ q )
p q p ^ q
F F F
F T F
T F F
T T T
,as you see in the table conjunction (p ^ q ) is true only in case p and q are true
Of course US assist Kurds in Iraq however you should not ignore that US helps Turkey also very long time, by giving economical and military help. Without Nato today that would be only dream for you (Turkish nationalists) using such high technological helicopters and tanks against Kurdish rebels. So what I mean you should not complain or find excuse for Kurdish economical booming in Iraq.
After reunification of Germany, Germans afford very hard to build east part of country. No you cant see any difference. So don鈥檛 you think something in Turkish mentality is wrong in Turkey between West and East part gap is getting deeper?
For Kirkuk if you are so sure why you doing everything to stop referendum in this City. You always are repeating by 鈥淜urds and Turks are brothers鈥 What kind of brothership is this. Brother is not allowed to have county. And treat your brother with war of in case of independent State.
I could not understand your sensibility (for not more than 20% in Kirkuk) about Turkmen鈥檚 however ignoring 30 millions of Kurdish people. Where this hate is come from? We Kurds did so many things for you in this world nobody else would do for other nation? I guess you got used to Kurds believe your words so easily.
I would not be surprise if Turkey attack north Iraq using Turkmen鈥檚 as excuse! There is an example in history as they used some nationalist in Cyprus to invade this island and separate nations!
Comments on Efes (83) and 88 sb from Turkey;
I found here some comments are outrages on Kurdish immigrates in west cities of Turkey. It reflected that Kurdish people were attracted by better life condition in west. I think main reason total different!
Kurdish people lived in their geography more than 3 thousands year why they started leave their home now? Unfortunately last decades Turkey broke Saddams record by destroying more than 3.5 thousands villages including ours, then you can imagine how desperate situation we had; starting in suburb of west Cities. No water no Electricity even no future? Just be survive!
You are right Mr. Efe, by doing every kind of hard work we integrated Turkish economy.
Seems you(88) ignored the children painting shoes, selling bread so on. Hundreds of them you could see in the streets. Then Turkish government find a simple solution by forbid working children under 16. But in Turkey clearly stealing or rubbing it is more tolerated than politic action.
Nevertheless you should be more careful express your opinion people from SE-Turkey, I know many people from this area and none of them would like their children choose this way. Seems, you (88) know too much about those organizations, which educates children for stealing! Can you make us clearer why our powerful government doesn鈥檛 intend to do something against them? Because are they not dealing with a politic action?
There is an old sentence says guerrilla is like a fish without water can not be survive. As the Kurdish people leave their home they will have less food supply less candidate for war. When I watch Turkish channel news it says Turkish Army successfully kills dozen of PKK-Guerrillas every day and still could not annihilate! If the news doesn鈥檛 give wrong information, seems Kurdish guerrillas continue their fight in harder condition and can afford their high casualties.
Hi,
I read most of the comments.I am Turkish and I could not understand many news in foreign press about Turkey.They are showing Turkish and Kurdish people as an enemy.We live together with peace and welfare.It is not a new event.There is just an invisible hand to seperate us.If you would like to undertand Tukish and Kurdish people relations, I`m sorry but you have to visit Turkey and see what is happenning except the 91热爆 news reports.
Thank you.
Re 89...
I grown up in Turkey and studied in Turkish schools. Until high school we repeated every morning same march starting with 鈥淲e are Turks鈥, next sentence 鈥淚 am telling Truth鈥 (We are Turks) and finish with 鈥淚 sacrifice my existence to Turkish existence鈥.
So Dear Kondracki, as you know we learnt history and our official books were written by education ministry of Turkey. I don鈥檛 remember any word like Turks are mixture of those nations as you commented. I learned Turks (our ancestors) came from Mongolia, before starving in Mongolia they emigrated to west (Anatolia). And we learned everything about those tribes, how many counties had built, their victories, traditions, languages so on... Unfortunately we haven鈥檛 learnt much about other cultures that had lived in Anatolia especially Armenians, Kurds and Greece (only how they were defeated in WWI).
May I can understand German nationalist they separate themselves as German, however Turkish nationalists try to convert other nations to Turks. If there is some German and English would have lived in Turkey, they would be converted too. What if in German schools they start to repeat everyday 鈥淲e are German鈥. I can imagine what would Turkish peoples reaction.
That is true ethnically Turkey is big mixture even Ataturk with Blue eyes and yellow hair probably was not a Mongolian-Turk. However may because of his military education he strongly believed he is. After then slowly and surely multinational mosaic has melted. The rest of Anatolian mixes are Armenian and Greece has left their homeland. However Kurd has nowhere to go then they resist against racist politics. I believe other nations would also resist against this system however they are not many to organise big resistance.
May this example will help you to understand our situation. What if crazy nationalist gain power in Anatolia and give order that everybody are Kurds and only you have to use Kurdish language! Please imagine that! May be for you this would be a nightmare but for us (Kurds) is reality of everyday life.
comment on 90
First of all Heidar I am not a Turkish nationalist. as I write in post 82 I am against the idea of nationalism and nation. And I don't think turks and kurds are brothers.(these was against the other poster I guess but anyway). People can be "brothers" but for it they need do something posivite and such.
from Kurdistan
I guess you write that post with premise of "turks being racist to kurds" or something. Better living conditions means what you said.. Living rather than dying is a better condition don't you agree ? and I said stealing and such to be a powerful agrument that they have to sell their children or use them as worker to live; though someone might say that why do they so much children? but I don't know the answer of it. Powerful goverment ? thats debatable. It is more like chains of "I scratch your back and you scratch mine" they are prolly bribing the guy who should arrest them or something. This is almost everywhere in turkey and not restricted to kurdish criminals.
I agree with your sedat bucak comment. There is something in turkey which is called "deep goverment" and they have finger in almost every weird murders like murders of judges reporters writers police chefs, politicans and such. But that is not something I can do against them nor the normal citizens of turkey so...
comment on 93
Heidar I know what you feel. I am intrested in history and in highschool I noticed that there are weird things about our history books. I asked those things to my teachers but they did not answered and said "there are things like that.." Problem is about turkish assimilation plans and undecided "national culture" while at first years references to ottoman empire and islam was minimal. Instead ancient anatolian kingdoms and being anatolian was and being anatolian "turk" was important. later came the turkic and pan turkic ideas with the rise of the nazis and turk-islam ideas after the rise of communism. and now it is going to islamic side. Lets look at the armenian genoicide:
Where is the "Western" Armenia? look at a map
Where is the "North" Kurdistan again look at a map
After ottoman empire losed many battles to west Sultan thought there must be a modern army consisted of trained citizens (rather than professinal elite) and decided to rule an empire of muslims and armenians and conscript all of them (It was forbiden to take armenians to army)
Turks were minority in that area and Armenians and Kurds lived together in a relative peace. Russians beat Ottoman empire took the caucasian lands and declared itself as a protector of orthodoxs. Sultan afraid of russians getting in to anatolia with the help of armenians armed the kurdish tribes with guns. (as guerillas against a invasion but he didn't have actual control over them) But russia did the same thing and armed the armenians to support in a time of action. Kurds killed armenian villagers to intimite other guerilla while armenians did the same. probably turks killed armenians too because they were killing muslims but all papers say armenians killed muslims rather than turks so prolly they are kurds. When actual war came Armenians massacred the muslims in cities because they killed arm. before and after russian army pulls back muslims(most of the kurds because of the demographics) killed armenians plus armenians where forced to migrate so they killed the defenseless easily.
But in a turkish history books every muslim is changed to turks and never mentions about arming the tribes and killing of armenians and such just says they killed us and they backstabbed us.
It does not matter whether Turkey is "allowed" into the EU or not. Turkey does not need the EU, although the opposite is probably more true. The EU is a self-centered alliance of nations who have decided to look after each other's interests. It can never match the vision of American Democracy, for instance. A Frenchman is a Frenchman, a German is a German, and a Brit is a Brit. No matter how many EU's they form, they will never be able to expand their vision beyond their own narrow ethnic and cultural interests. It is much more important for Turkey to remain close to the USA, which I believe is the only model of true democratic and equal co-existence for all races and cultures. In a way, the only hope for the future of mankind, being the only experiment showing results. The EU will never be able to provide the kind of global leadership that the US has for decades, simply because of its exclusive nature. It will take a hundred years for Europe to rise from its medieval consciousness and equal what USA is today.
To Mark Mardell,
I've just read your article and I would like to point out a couple of things if I may.
First of all, I too, being a Turkish citizen, do not understand why there's always "a ripple of applause" whence the plane lands. You say that you can't imagine French or German people doing it, I lived in London for eight years and never saw British people doing either. Maybe it's because it's not Virgin Atlantic "Upper Class" we're talking about...
Secondly I must say that I'm offended by what you mean "Kurdish Territory". But then again I can't say that I'm surprised. I've studied for seven years in a French College, even there, they've used the term "Kurdish Territory".
I think that's because people don't know enough about Turkey to understand what they mean when they say such things. It's not like calling a Scotsman "Irish".
I belive Kurds are not the victims in this country, however, they are seen as they were by most EU countries.
I believe you've used the term "Kurdish Territory" not to offend people but because that's what you and most EU citizens think when it comes to Turks and Kurds.
reply to (96) Somebody, who wrote he has studied for seven years in a French College, even there, they've used the term "Kurdish Territory".
It is really pity for him that seven years education didn鈥檛 help him to admit there is a Kurdish Territory.
Kurdish Territory is not just a name it means in that geography, Kurdish people exist with their culture and language. If anybody is against this terminology, means he/she is against Kurdish existence, this is not easy to understand. If you were a Kurd, you would feel this is one of the worst feelings in the world.
There is no other example of this barbaric ignorance in the world. It is not comparable this with Baskonia, Cataluna, Flamandia, north Ireland, Gascony even Tibet. Those entire examples have their traditional name and cultural right! However talking about Kurdistan is still a taboo and especially in Turkey is quite dangerous. So obviously Mr. Mardell is a Brave guy. Although he drives many Turkish nationalists crazy also offends many Turkish intellectuals, he is very welcome in Kurdistan as he respect our existence we respect him very much!
reply to (96) Somebody, who wrote he has studied for seven years in a French College, even there, they've used the term "Kurdish Territory".
It is really pity for him that seven years education didn鈥檛 help him to admit there is a Kurdish Territory.
Kurdish Territory is not just a name it means in that geography, Kurdish people exist with their culture and language. If anybody is against this terminology, means he/she is against Kurdish existence, this is not easy to understand. If you were a Kurd, you would feel this is one of the worst feelings in the world.
There is no other example of this barbaric ignorance in the world. It is not comparable this with Baskonia, Cataluna, Flamandia, north Ireland, Gascony even Tibet. Those entire examples have their traditional name and cultural right! However talking about Kurdistan is still a taboo and especially in Turkey is quite dangerous. So obviously Mr. Mardell is a Brave guy. Although he drives many Turkish nationalists crazy also offends many Turkish intellectuals, he is very welcome in Kurdistan as he respect our existence we respect him very much!