The party splitter
Europe is a party splitter - always has been - perhaps always will be. What no-one could have guessed before today was that it would be the over calls for a referendum.
Gordon Brown's decision to reverse Tony Blair's U-turn on the issue of letting the public have the final say has met with no resistance at the top of his party. His explanation that it is the treaty - and not just his own position - that has changed has not convinced a sizeable number of his backbenchers but this is a rebellion he'll live with.
The Tories are - bar a Clarke-ite handful - united on the call for a referendum. However, their Euro divisions could very easily and painfully re-occur if the is ratified and when David Cameron faces calls from within his party for a wholesale renegotiation of Britain's membership of the EU.
There is no position that Nick Clegg could have taken on a referendum which would have united the Lib Dems who are torn between a desire to proclaim their credentials as the most pro-European party and the fear of many of their MPs, particularly in the South West, that that position would cost them their jobs.
However, the new Lib Dem leader did not have to choose to have a very public row about this and, indeed, his first as leader. His gamble is that the public will have seen him take a principled stand for an IN/OUT referendum on Europe. The risk is that the public may recall another Lib Dem split before remembering what it was that caused it.
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Comments
In taking his tough action has Nick Clegg turned from being Mr Bean to Stalin sending the dissidents to Siberia.
Sooooo, this is a decision being decided non-democratically about how we should be running our democracy? Should we not just change it to a Mockracy?
The Tories never fail to make me chuckle.
They scoffed at the lib dems who rebelled, but those rebellious MPs were supporting them…Square that one. Takes flip flopping to new dimensions, ridiculing people who actually supported a tory amendment to the Lisbon Treaty Bill
Those who rebelled; their seats are now safe as houses. They can go to their constituencies with their heads held high, and will be admired for their stance.
Also today was supposed to be Browns annus horriblous, but he is back at No ten this evening chuckling into his drinking chocolate.
Cameron lost, IWAR look stupid, and furthermore in the weeks running up to this vote IWAR did more to publicize the Treaty debate than the Tories. In fact cowardly cambo hid behind the coat tails of IWAR.
Gordon Brown's position on this is the only one which merits any logic.
The Treaty of Lisbon is in no way as significant as Maastricht and yet the Tories never let us have a vote on that. It is yet another example of the pathetic political opportunism that has become the trademark of the Conservative Party.
The Liberal Democrats meanwhile are making a mockery of the parliamentary process, all the while demonstrating the reasons why they will never be considered fit for government. Is there anyone who seriously believes that that walk-out wasn't staged?
Labour, however, have taken the correct and proper route of not wasting valuable taxpayers time, money and resources on what would have been a totally pointless referendum which (let's be honest) most people wouldn't have had the first clue of what they were voting about.
I think Gordon Brown has proven today why David Cameron is too pathetic and Nick Clegg too inexperienced to lead a party fit for government.
As Piers Morgan has noted, Gordon Brown is a man with a colossal mind and huge intellect. He is also the only one of the three main political party leaders to have demonstrated principles with a conviction to get the job done.
A lot of people in a lot of countries spend a lot of time complaining about the ridiculously lengthy holidays their leaders take and moan about how corrupt and inexperienced their leaders are. We have also done this in Britain.
Yet Gordon Brown is none of these things. He spends every possible waking moment doing the job he knows he is privelaged to be in.
I for one am glad that we finally have a man like Gordon Brown as our Prime Minister.
I hope the nation agress with me too.
I tend to agree that the European issue divides people. Like many other issues it doesn't seem possible to have a reasoned discussion. Obsessing about the EU treaty just makes it worse. We can all get locked into patterns like that and MP's are no different. They may find calming down and getting some perspective is a better way to approach things.
The idea of a European constitution that replaced the previous clutter was a good one but suffered from too much gold plating and hidden agendas in the same way the howlers in opposition throw chaff and perform to the gallery. As some argue an EU constitution demanded a referendum in what way is a cluttered and obscured status quo acceptable?
The EU treaty is an attempt to solve some practical problems and bring everyone together more but reading more into it than that looks like an extremist view. A poorly drafted constitution without agreement would've been a move too far but this isn't it. At worst it's a tidying exercise that puts the EU on a better footing and gives people time to reflect.
Spineless. That is why the lib dems won't get my vote. I wouldn't have minded a 3 line whip one way or the other, but to tell them not to vote at all. I guess that being liberal means that the argument goes something like this- in a democratic country one of the benefits is that you can choose not to participate in it at all.....
That said, I still think that the whole non referendum is actually robbing the people who voted in good faith in the general election of having their say simply by arguing that since the name (is's no longer a constitution becasue it's, er, called a treaty..) has changed it's a different kettle of fish. How stupid do they think we are?
Clegg was resolute for abstention (typical of his Party).
Brown and Co. were disingenuous (nothing new there).
It is a sad affair when our national sovereignty and democracy needs to be saved by the Lord - or more ironically - by the Irish voters come their referendum.
Let's not forget that Labour were elected on a promise to put this issue to a referendum.
Gordon Brown stood on that same platform. He's broken a manifesto pledge and bottled out of a referendum.
Men of straw, one and all. Not fit for purpose.
Clegg was resolute for abstention (typical of his Party).
Brown and Co. were disingenuous (nothing new there).
It is a sad affair when our national sovereignty and democracy needs to be saved by the Lord - or more ironically - by the Irish voters come their referendum.
I don't know whether you read these Nick but here is a question for you.
What is the point of voting in the Commons when the parties slap a three line whip on anything important. Labour MP's (as well as Tory and Lib Dem) were told how to vote on the Constitution referendum so the outcome was inevitable.
We now hear Brown saying that Parliament has decided but in reality Parliament was told what to do as it is with most issues.
In America, politicians have much more freedom to vote how they want and do not HAVE to follow the party line - surely a similar system is needed in this country!
The party splits are always so minimal as to very rarely have any affect on the outcome.
I am slowly coming to the conclusion that if I am not bright enough to make a decision after being given the right information, ie vote on a treaty via a referendum, perhaps I am not bright enough to vote in elections either. Mind you I vote for someone on what they have said they will do and they go and do something else.
Still can't remember the Liberal MP who proudly stated that once voted in by their constituency they weren't there to do as they were told but were there to do what they wanted.
So much for representation. How do you sack your MP before the the 4/5 year opportunity? My boss can sack me any time with reasonable graounds, he doesn't have to wait 4/5 years. As my MP boss i should be able to sack them.
Yet again we see our parliamentary representatives selling out the UK to the EU over the EU Constitution (sorry - the Lisbon Treaty!). All over the EU parliaments are refusing to allow their citizens to have a voice in the matter. Here, Labour and the LibDems want nothing more than to join a federal superstate of Europe, while the Tories are their usual laughable selves over Europe. They support the call for a referendum but will not support the withdraw from the EU.
Meanwhile, it is only UKIP that continues to fight and campaign for British sovereignty and British independence by calling for the withdrawl of our country from EU control.
And, no doubt, due to the 91Èȱ¬s known bias against UKIP, this message will never make it to the message board. But at least I've tried!
Its rather pointless to debate if Lisbon is more significant than previous treaties without a referendum or if it’s a constitution
(a)Each treaty is more significant than the last as they add more responsive power to ‘Europe’
(b)The treaties are the constitutions of the EU if they are consolidated or amending. The constitution was a ‘Constitutional Treaty’ – they all are.
(c)The significance of an act has no determining if a referendum will be held promises of referendum have always been solely to political expediency.
My personal view is that, like Ireland when Parliament permanently intends to give up/pool its powers there should be a referendum. I find the current position when they are going to ratify a treaty that is intended to make permanent changes to how the UK/EU is governed without even putting it to the electorate in a referendum or general election a contempt for democracy especially the Liberals position which is intended prevent a referendum without have the principles to vote against.
Democracy is in the end the will of the people which should mean if 50%+1 want something it should happen (who the people are is a different question)
Its rather pointless to debate if Lisbon is more significant than previous treaties without a referendum or if it’s a constitution
(a)Each treaty is more significant than the last as they add more responsive power to ‘Europe’
(b)The treaties are the constitutions of the EU if they are consolidated or amending. The constitution was a ‘Constitutional Treaty’ – they all are.
(c)The significance of an act has no determining if a referendum will be held promises of referendum have always been solely to political expediency.
My personal view is that, like Ireland when Parliament permanently intends to give up/pool its powers there should be a referendum. I find the current position when they are going to ratify a treaty that is intended to make permanent changes to how the UK/EU is governed without even putting it to the electorate in a referendum or general election a contempt for democracy especially the Liberals position which is intended prevent a referendum without have the principles to vote against.
Democracy is in the end the will of the people which should mean if 50%+1 want something it should happen (who the people are is a different question)
Nick,
I'm a paid up Demmer and think that only the CP have it right on this issue. Both the LP and LDs promised a referendum on the constitution (rightly or wrongly). The treaty appears to be much the same thing. Therefore not calling a referendum is an act of bad faith. Like Blair's 'no tuition fees' promise.
the lib dems were a joke yesterday a mean a three line whip to abstain you couldn't make it up no wonder some labour mps were taking photos of them during the vote yesterday. Ian davidson was the speech of the day very entertaining indeed. its intresting to note that 14 labour mps abstain if some of them lib dem mps who were on the verge of tears as sky news reported had bottle then who knows what might have happened
i thik the tories come out of this the winners and i hate this line of when people say mps decided no they didn;t the whips did it should have been a free vote
I am pro-Europe, I have no problem with this Treaty. I agree with Justin that this Treaty isn't as significant as Maastricht or the Single European Act that Maggie signed.
I would welcome a reasonable, well thought out debate on the facts of the Treaty followed by a referendum if I actually thought that the Euro-sceptics would manage not to tell their usual porkies on the issue.
Having said all that the only party leader to come out of this with any credit is Cameron. It actually doesn't matter that this Treaty is less important than Maastrict Justin what matters is that ALL three parties agreed to a referendum.
Cameron stuck to something that he promised, something that Brown promised and something that Clegg promised in the 05 election. This isn't pathetic political posturing it's called sticking to your principles.
as for the Lib Dems they just look stupid now. Any hope of a fightback after Ming just looks hopeless now.
I am no lover of the Tories but they handled this the best. Come the next election who will believe anything that Brown promises after yet another broken promise.
Nick
Labour's stated reason for promising a referendum was bogus. The real and cynical reason was to take Europe off the table as an issue which might affect their prospects at the last General Election.
Their stated reason for reneging on their promise to hold a referendum is bogus. The real and cynical reason is to avoid the risk that the electorate would come up with the wrong answer.
As for the Tories, it's not easy to work out if they are disappointed at the refusal of a referendum - or mightily relieved. To say nothing of the Lib Dems. which, come to think of it, is probably the best thing to do.
We have a snake oil salesman Prime Minister, leading his "Stepford wives" type Cabinet Ministers, facing a hapless opposition.
I can't remember a Lib Dem rebellion on this scale. This may be an indicator that Clegg will be a much less consensual leader than his predecessors.
I wonder whether part of Clegg's calculation was that, if the Lib Dems all voted for the referendum, the amendment might have passed? He didn't know how large the Labour rebellion would be. We now know that the measure would have passed anyway, but of course there was no way for the Lib Dems to find out how many Labour MPs were planning to rebel.
I think we now live in a tolaterian state created by labour Gordon Brown and all the labour mps say its not the same so tough luck. Its the same with all there new idea the first thing they come up with is how much can we charge I hope at the next election and local election we vote out every single labour council member and minister. And say deal with that also I think the whole population should post any leaflets from labour back to no10 without a stamp on with weres our vote on the Treaty. Perhaps he can read as he does not listen.
Justin claims hypocrisy on the part of the Conservative party regarding their call for a referendum, due to the lack of a referendum on Maastricht. It's worth pointing out that, back in those days, many of the shadow cabinet weren't even MP's, let alone major players in determining policy. It's no more relevant than accusing Labour of hypocrisy since they wanted to leave the EU altogether in the 80's.
In any case, the Maastricht treaty has nothing to do with the current debate. The point is that the public were promised a referendum on (more or less) the current treaty by all major parties before the last election, and to renege on such a promise shows disdain for the views of the public, and democracy in general.