91热爆

It's always bandied about as being racist to not want immigrants due to xenophobia.

But isn't it just as if not more racist to say, "sure come on over and do all the crap jobs we don't want to do ourselves"?

Many Brits want to travel, work, or live in Australia or the US.

A product of opening our borders to low-skill low-wage works from the former eastern bloc is put pressue on our resources and limit the prospect of migration from our tradition kin in US, Australia etc.

Whatever happened to the meritocracy?

I would far prefer we increased our quotas from Australia, US etc. -- those countries with similar cultures -- and restricted EU migration from exlargement countris.

Hopefully US, AUS would reciprocate to benefit outbound Brits seeking a new life, and in bound skilled English-speaking people sharing a similar culture.

Why cannot some of these so called crap(sic) jobs be taken up by some of our unemployed... we hear lots ot chatter about "not being able to fill these vacancies because they!(us) do not want such work".... time was , perhaps still should be ,to come off job-seekers/dole & get working!!

I have no problem with immigrants. I have a problem with the government's handling of them though. I cannot think how they could have more effectively nurtured xenophobia even if they had meant to. Their conflicting statements, wildly inaccurate figures, and breathtaking incompetance have done more damage than the BNP ever could.

We still have to challenge the misconceptions put about by far right groups and the right wing press. My favourite is that illegal immigrants claim benifits, as if someone who's hiding from the government is going to go knocking on their door asking for money!

The society we live in is determined by the people who inhabit that society. More European immigration is likely to lead to more of a focus on European issues Society nurtured on any particular culture will grow in that direction.

The society we live in is determined by the people who inhabit that society. More European immigration is likely to lead to more of a focus on European issues Society nurtured on any particular culture will grow in that direction.

Can't see what the fuss is about...

The majority of these new immigrants want to live in the South East and as we all know, this is a huge geographical area almost the size of Texas with plentiful housing, well equipped and under-utilised schools and hospitals and transportation/logistical links that are the envy of the world. Don't believe me? Well when was the last time you had to stand on a packed train, suffered serious delays on the roads or had to wait to have an operation etc in the booming South East?

Obviously we haven't been asked whether we want wave after wave of new immigrants by the government but personally I have no problem with this as Blair etc have consistently proved that they know what they are doing, always putting our interests first and have despite xenophobic fears to the contrary, this government simply have no desire to see England transformed in to something quite unrecognizable to that of our parents and forebears.

What we need to remember is that immigration doesn麓t have to be a one way street, the whole point of freedom of movement is that people can go west, and WE can go east. I think the key thing that the government should do, and I have been campaigning bitterly inside the labour party for this is to increase help for people who wish to study or work abroad.

The experience of being surrounded by another culture and having to deal with the language and sociological problems of being what the Germans refer sometimes refer to as a "Schei脽 Engl盲nder" or "Insel Affe" has been one of the most challenging and uplifting of my life. To actually be integrated and excepted as a member of a foreign culture whilst retaining some of your own in bred identity is harder than you think. If Brits had to do it, and did it then they would know the types of problems immigrants face on a day to day basis.

Luckily the Germans cannot seem to be openly racist, both at government level and at least in the former West Germany but there is an incredible amount of institutional racism. I think brits when they are racist are more openly so. The Germans will welcome you for a couple of years but then try to squeeze you out their institutions are subtle.

We as Brits need to be more understanding and loving towards our european partners and be more open to sharing culture and experience with them. This can only benefit us and enhance our understanding that not everyone in the world lives in the same way. Germans and English speaking people are very guilty of assuming that something is the absoulte truth when it is really only an institutionally British opinion usually perpetrated by our media.

But I don麓t see how we can do this when we are so nasty to one another. British people have the reputation of being incredibly arrogant, ill brought up and hedonistic and less open minded towards the benefits of the EU compared to other normal Europeans especially Germans.

I notice that on all 91热爆 news reports EU migrants are always referred to as "migrant workers". This is a value judgement. They may be migrants seeking work, but they are not ALL migrant workers. The term to describe such people should be "migrants", plain and simple. To use any other term impugns the reputation of the 91热爆 as a neutral source of news.

On the face of it, this looks like yet another example of New Labour making an incredibly bad fist of things. Worse, there has been an amazing amount of obfuscation and burying-under-the-carpet of this particular issue, until it is too obvious to the electorate to stick to the rhetoric; and too late to do anything about.
Whether it's controlling the borders for illegal or legal immigration, this government has shown zero willingness or ability to manage this or its clear impact on the UK.
It is increasingly hard to understand how this could have been so poorly executed - to a man from mars arriving in the UK, it would be difficult not to conclude that this is a calculated way to keep Mr Brown's economic growth track record going...

First, I have just heard it said that a good cook can earn 2000 pounds a months. I have worked in catering for more than twenty years as a chef and that is the biggest load of rubbish I have ever heard.

Second, when peoplle talk about the pressures that immigration causes they are nearly always talking about one major problem. There is no housing for rent for poor people who cannot ever afford to buy.

This government came into power promising to build houses and have built nothing. It is this issue which is behind the surge of racism that has brought the BNP to prominence. Britain has the highest level of homeless people and poorly housed people in the whole of Europe.
Nobody would be talking about immigration if there was enough housing to go round.

Even the affordable housing the government is planning to build is supposed to be "affordable" only in terms of purchase not rent. Housing Associations will never be able to deal with this problem and we need to bring back council housing. People knock it, but it is amazing the standards that it was built to and how many billions of pounds were made by people buying it for knockdown prices and selling it for huge profits because it was well built. The idea that it was all rubbish is a myth.

Without immigrants our economy would collapse in many sectors and we need them. They also greatly enrich our culture; where I live in North London I can buy Asian, Polish, Turkish/Greek, Iranian, Japanese and Jewish food. They also bring with them their music, art and literature.
To borrow: Vive la difference.

I am a small employer in the construction industry and I know have 3 Polish tradesmen on my team !
I am very pleased with their work ,their attitude and the positions were held by young locals before them, but they did not perform, they did not have the skills and were not focused on learning.
My migrant workers are most definitely helping my business and therefore are positive to the Economy !

I am an immigrant myself but I oppose un-programmed immigration laws. It will only create imbalance in the community we live in and causes breakage of social links between the migrants and the host community. I feel the Poles are very hard working people but there should be restraints on their contribution to the UK economy. One thing though shocked me!!! How on earth the government was so off! by predicting 15,000 migrant workers as oppose to 600,000. What kind of world labour goverment lives in?????

There have been happenings of the last week or two that are defently off putting, regarding imagrants coming into our country.On the news you where talking to a woman from poland that said many docters and nurses have imagrated to the uk and ireland, and that those people where needed back at home. The uk may now be their home. It should not be that countries discision,it should be the people who are imagrating and the country that they are imagrating too.

To Ray Scott

I think it麓s great to hear from someone else that麓s lived and worked abroad. I am much younger. But don麓t you think that people can benefit enormously as I麓m sure you have from going the other way, getting out there into different countries and experiencing a different way of life.

I have spent all of my relatively short working life in Germany and most of the racist remarks I encounter are in good humour but I麓ve heard that in the former DDR things are different. I have heard from my friends that people in Dresden are even "racist" towards people from Cologne, my other friend from Nigeria , a very intelligent man worked as a footballer in Jena and there wasn麓t a week that went by without some racist comment or another being made.

I feel however, it is very important for people to experience racism first
hand. To put things in perspective, the amount of time spent abroad does not actually relate to integrating into the society and culture of the host country. I know people that have been here for years and may have a German wife but would rather be in England and socialise primarialy with other members of the minority English speaking community, they are English English and they do not have the experience of having led a singles life and having developed themselves in a typically Germanised fashion here. I believe "when in Rome do as the Romans do" and I tend to distance myself from these people as much as possible and do my own thing.

I have a Jewish girlfriend from the former USSR. I have also had many health problems but have just about survived so far.

I have been in the German higher education system for 4 years and it is sometimes very different to our own. Opinions are less free than our own and often produced uniquely German but sometimes highly institutionalised solutions to problems. Intelligence and creativity are seen as less important as dedication reliability "handwerk" and the way you express things rather than what you actually say, this takes some getting used to.

I also lived with 4 Germans for 3 and a half years and during this time had many many friends from all over the world. As diverse as Palistinian and Iranian ,Sudanese, Kasakstani,Russian, Bealarussian, German, Turkish and many other peoples.

It would interest me to know if you really lived like the people in your gost countries did, or if you had more to do with the british contingent in your host country? I feel these two very different lifestyles provide two entirely different viewpoints.

Britain is one of the most densly populated counties in the World. Does it really improve the quality of life in Britain to increase density.
The signs are there for all to see - we don't have enough water - our main roads are like car parks - our airports .....well!
This is NOT about racism this is about "Quality of Life".
Madge

We should allow Romanian and Bulgarian workers in as the combined population of Romania and Bulgaria is smaller than Poland let alone all 10 of the 2004 EU entrants. Over 1/2 million Romanians will be working in Spain as they are now and only a few will come to Britain. Bulgaria is even smaller than Romania and only a few thousand will come from Bulgaria. A few Romanians will go and work in Hungary.

All research from the EU states that inter EU migration does not increase unemployment rates. This is because for example most British workers would refuse to pick potatoes for less than the minimum wage but Polish workers would not refuse. So national output increases due to migration; this is a good economic result.

The only way we are going to right the economic discrepancies between nations is to move away from an old fasioned notion of statehood and citizenship. Free movement is good for all - those who earn here send remittances home that are worth much more than all the 'aid' we give. As less developed countries develop, with the help of these remittances, they can better afford the goods and services we have to sell which helps us. Besides, how many of us Brits would like to be denied the right to move to Spain? How many of us decry the fact that to live and work in the US we need a green card?

This governments policy on immigration and also asylum as been like a bomb with a long fuse, the fuse as been slowly burning since 1997 ,when they took power , the fuse is now very short and the dangers are there for all to see.I am a resident of the eastwood area of Rotherham featured on newsnight this week, I can tell you no matter what the programme shows ,the area is full of distrust, anger and a simmering dangerous feeling under the surface that may well explode at any time, the fuse is nearly all burnt!

Just caught the newsnight show. Having been to POland a few times recently conditions are dire for young people. Women especially are well educated but find it difficult to get jobs. England offers a life line.
What annoys me is the exploitation of eastern european. many here are lured into prostitution - this is rife and the goverment blantantly ignore it. all the escort sites here in uk are filled girls offering their services and most are eastern european. Being born and living in britain we sometimes forget how lucky we are.

I have no issue with people coming here to work. Unfortunately, though those people coming in take up valuable jobs, resources, housing etc. This is not their fault but our weak Government. My son (who is born and bred in UK) applied for a so-called 'crap' job in our local KFC and was not accepted. Upon visiting the establishment for food we were served by people who had difficulty speaking English...most were Polish. I think it comes down to the fact that we are as humans just plain old greedy and see the grass maybe greener on the other side rather than making things better where we already are. I am also sceptical because our Government may well be trying to pass laws etc that are not popular so they purposely put immigration in the media to distract the population from what they are getting up to.

This isnt about xenophobia, anti-europeanism, or a downer on illegal immigrants.... Its just about a small country that has its own inherant social problems not being able to cope with 1/2 million Eastern Eurpeans in 18 months.

Last week I flew back from Berlin, using a 'low-cost' airline, into East Midlands airport on a rainy Tuesday evening, its no exageration to say that you could count the number british nationals on the fingers of one hand.

The rest of the passengers were Poles... and not single young men egar to work as the government would have us all belive but families.... one of which had even brought granny with them!

Just caught the newsnight show. Having been to POland a few times recently conditions are dire for young people. Women especially are well educated but find it difficult to get jobs. England offers a life line.
What annoys me is the exploitation of eastern european. many here are lured into prostitution - this is rife and the goverment blantantly ignore it. all the escort sites here in uk are filled girls offering their services and most are eastern european. Being born and living in britain we sometimes forget how lucky we are.

This isnt about xenophobia, anti-europeanism, or a downer on illegal immigrants.... Its just about a small country that has its own inherant social problems not being able to cope with 1/2 million Eastern Eurpeans in 18 months.

Last week I flew back from Berlin, using a 'low-cost' airline, into East Midlands airport on a rainy Tuesday evening, its no exageration to say that you could count the number british nationals on the fingers of one hand.

The rest of the passengers were Poles... and not single young men egar to work as the government would have us all belive but families.... one of which had even brought granny with them!

My dear former colonists, this is how new world functions. You robbed the 鈥渢hird world鈥� and now 鈥渢he third world鈥� is taking what it thinks it belongs to it.
I really believe this is only the beginning.

This isnt about xenophobia, anti-europeanism, or a downer on illegal immigrants.... Its just about a small country that has its own inherant social problems not being able to cope with 1/2 million Eastern Eurpeans in 18 months.

Last week I flew back from Berlin, using a 'low-cost' airline, into East Midlands airport on a rainy Tuesday evening, its no exageration to say that you could count the number british nationals on the fingers of one hand.

The rest of the passengers were Poles... and not single young men egar to work as the government would have us all belive but families.... one of which had even brought granny with them!

In response to your programme on immigration, I can tell you that the social 'scenery' is changing: Eastern European men congregate on benches on the Common drinking cans of beer. They congregate drinking near supermarkets with mums wheeling their tots to get to the shops. They can be seen walking out from between bill boards and the like, first thing in the morning. They buy bottles of strong liquor and drink it in broad daylight for all to see, regardless of the schoolchildren popping in to the corner shop to buy after-school goodies. They leave their cans like beacons on kerbs and on top of walls. Convoys of campa-vans from abroad line leafy common kerbs, housing what seems to be already, young Romanian and Bulgarian people, on the road. Caretakers complain that the nature of PPAs are changing and that for the first time ever a very low turn out of parents come to support the usual Summer events. Money is not spent in pubs, not spent at school fetes, but pours out and is sent to their home countries. If they were to stay and acquire the language and social customs - fall in and jog around the Common, rather than drink intimidatingly in groups, and become ambitious, to want to establish roots here, then I think the Country will gain. But what does the CBI say to the fact that most of the money they earn is pouring out? Or do they assume that they are all on low wages which will be swallowed in rents here anyway and that the country can stand the pour-out of sterling because perhaps the amounts are small? Or, is the CBI complacent; does it assume that this is payment to Poland's financial infrastructure in return for draining their workforce?

When we are given comparative wages across countries will someone please give us the comparative cost of living. Without this these are meaningless numbers: lies or statistics. No one mentions the huge wages earned by UK nationals who chose to work abroad or the Costa Del Inglesi. Why focus on inward migration. I find it particularly insulting that the man from the local government agency talks about how we are denuding Polands finest when in fact we've been doing it from India, Sri Lanka and several African countries for years - where in Gods name does he think all our doctors and nurses come.

People seem to have forgotten the woman from an EU accession country, in Belfast last year who, after a brief job, was left destitute and ended up with frostbite and an amputated leg, what a cosy democracy we are - people in these circumstances end up at Refugee Agencies who are already strugling to cope and turn them away. Gaps in the system?

I work in a refugee drop in centre and believe me the Enoch Powels of this world are alive and well and are now airing their views on prime time TV. I deal every day with people who are suicidal, self harming and severely depressed and we as a nation are sweeping it under the carpet. Race Hate crime in the UK is on the rise and the politicians and the press need to start telling the truth.

Ewna Roberts

When we are given comparative wages across countries will someone please give us the comparative cost of living. Without this these are meaningless numbers: lies or statistics. No one mentions the huge wages earned by UK nationals who chose to work abroad or the Costa Del Inglesi. Why focus on inward migration. I find it particularly insulting that the man from the local government agency talks about how we are denuding Polands finest when in fact we've been doing it from India, Sri Lanka and several African countries for years - where in Gods name does he think all our doctors and nurses come.

People seem to have forgotten the woman from an EU accession country, in Belfast last year who, after a brief job, was left destitute and ended up with frostbite and an amputated leg, what a cosy democracy we are - people in these circumstances end up at Refugee Agencies who are already strugling to cope and turn them away. Gaps in the system?

I work in a refugee drop in centre and believe me the Enoch Powels of this world are alive and well and are now airing their views on prime time TV. I deal every day with people who are suicidal, self harming and severely depressed and we as a nation are sweeping it under the carpet. Race Hate crime in the UK is on the rise and the politicians and the press need to start telling the truth.

Ewan Roberts

I have no problem with immigrants from poland, they are hard working and proud. There are most likely just as many South Africians and Austrialians in the UK.

I do think that we need to limit the numbers from the two new members as they are not as skilled. Also we need to ensure that our demographics do not become unbalanced.

And what will happen if the Ukraine joins the EU, 40m highly skilled workers could be on the european job market.

We should also be questioning the mass outsourcing to offshore facilities in India by most of our large firms, this is far more unhealthy in the long term.

S.lane

It is obvious to anyone but a fool that we need to impose not quotas, but an embargo on immigration from anywhere, never mind the EU.

We are watching our national identity disappear with astonishing rapidity.

I firmly believe that 'new' labour's intention is to open Britain's borders so completely that the damage done will be irreversible once the public wakes up and kicks them out of office. Sadly, I think they've succeeded.

All Sorry want my intention to multiple post - just feel stongly about the issue and was getting an error when psoting... probably a symtom of other people trying to post their stongly held veiws!

'Viva Freedom of Speach'!

All Sorry wans't my intention to multiple post - just feel strongly about the issue and was getting an error when posting... probably a symptom of other people trying to post they鈥檙e strongly held views!

'Viva Freedom of Speech'!

Immigration is currently a hot potato that no political party wants to deal with.

it is now time to stop the madness of labours immigration policy, it's a disgrace.

the prison population is rising due to foreign nationals being imprisoned here, going by figures released by the home office (2001)say it has risen from 6926 to 10,834, foreign nationals should be instantly repatriated if they are charged with a custodial sentenance, who's going to have to pay for that? ...us the taxpayer!

immigrants DO recive benefits, they DO receive houses that are fitted out with bedding, kitchen utensils, cookers, fridges,and some furniture, our british nationals dont even get that special treatment. (i can produce a document that proves this)

we now also see our taxes are set to rise due to the extra cost of labours rose tinted view of multi-culturism.

also the polish who choose to come over here for work can now apply for and receive child benefit for children that may not even be in this country, who do you think will be paying for that?....you, the taxpayer.

the figures released by the government on the amount of immigrants that are here is way off by the governments own admissions, no wonder we have home grown terrorists plotting their next atrocity on us the british people.

regarding employment, some people argue that immigrants dont take jobs away from uk nationals, thats just not true the reason these jobs lie empty is the amount the employers are willing to pay, minimum wage, pay a fair wage you get a fair days work which should reflect the cost of living in the uk which is now set to rise even further, it;s just slave labour in disguise.

it's time to end this madness, the united kingdom has done its fair share in giving these people a better life, we just cannot cope with any more mass

The government estimate was done when Blunkett was home sec. Maybe we should have had someone who could literally see what was going on.

To Aunty Madge and Simon

If you don麓t like it, get out of England and go to Spain, or even Poland. As EU citizens europe is our playground.

If you take my advice without simply arguing that you are British and why the hell should you, you will soon understand the kind of unfair pressure you are putting people under.

These people are not foreingers they are EU citizens like you and me and in time we will benefit from the contacts made.
The problem is that we are an Island nation and we have to pay money and spend time to go abroad and this prevents us from having a more typical relationship with our EU partners, many people live who live in Niederrehein actually work in Holland across the boarder from their German home, we don麓t do this, we do not simply accept the truth which is legally that we are part of one single European state, that is what John Major signed up to and that is the reality, these people are our fellow countrymen!

I have just watched tonight's edition of Newsnight and have felt the need to write for the first time in this blog.

I run a small business in Lowestoft, Suffolk, dealing with the general public face on. In the last five years my small local workforce have got more and more depressed at the amount of foreign migrants who use my workshop.

You could say that i should be grateful for the 'Extra' trade that they bring to us but i can honestly confirm that i'm not as all the fun and jokes, good old fashioned leg-pulling and the usual jovial banter which we used to enjoy with our local regular customers has dissappeared due to the amount of foreign nationals frequenting our premises who have nothing in common with us or to contribute to the day to day humdrum of East Anglian life.

All the local customers talk about now is the fact that they all feel that they don't have any belonging to the town where many of them grew up and there is a general feeling of unease throughout the local community where we used to feel so happy and content.Social cohesion is definately at an all time low.

'We want our country back', so many of them say to me.

What a depressing state we have got into thank's to this inadaquate 'Scottish' government.

For the record i am 37 years old, married with two young boys.

I love my country with a passion but am beginning to feel a stranger in it!

Having spent 6 years as an outreach worker in an area of urban deprivation I would like to concur with Sir Digby Jones's comments on some of our indigenous population.
I and several of my colleagues are often driven to despair at the totally absent work ethic amongst many of the under 25's we deal with.
How on earth can economically ambitious immigration be anything but a positive thing? I have regularly been told by an unemployed; mostly male, young person that "there's no f***ing way I'm working for less than 拢200 a week". This is all the more rediculous when it's said by someone who's never worked, rarely attended school and has a far poorer grasp of the English language than many of the Polish immigrants I've met.
I'm disgusted that the media is helping to fuel this bigotted frenzy that's gripping the nation. As rewarding as my job can be I am sick of being let down by people who have absolutely no intention of ever working,and who have completely urealistic wage expectations.
How convenient to blame those hard working immigrants, serve us right when they return home and leave a huge void that employers will struggle to fill.
The media and the government should focus it's attention on the work-shy, and ask itself why are so many British people so bloody lazy.
What a dull place England would be without immigrants.

All very well talking about immigrants of working age coming to the UK, what about the OAPs that we are sending to Spain? Fair swap?

I live in Ealing, which could very well be another country as it appears that most of the young people walking around Ealing Broadway tend to be speaking an East European language - Polish, Latvian, Lithuanian etc. Apparently Ealing, which has always had a large Polish community since the war can now boast to having the largest Polish community living outside Poland!! This has all happened far too quickly and on a huge scale, which of course will naturally cause racism, insecurity, fear etc. People have already commented on the Government's complete lack of planning and foresight, so I don't need to add further comments.People are naturally worried how services are going to cope - but has anyone given any thought to the way this is all going to change the nature and culture of England. We are indeed already a multi-cultural sociey but mostly we live parallel lives with our "immigrant" neighbours and most of us don't really mix socially although this will change as time goes on. Meanwhile we should pause before we open our doors to other countries and let the people who are already here settle in and find themselves housing etc - many of them are sleeping on floors in awful conditions. Our local councils also need to have the time and resources to deal with these newcomers before more arrive. All we seem to care about is growth of the economy, filling jobs as cheaply as possible, without thinking of the consequences.

I live in an city that has had a steady influx of immigrants within the last six or seven years. They have been settled into the surrounding areas of one of the main counsil estates, which ajoins one of the main roads leading to the city centre.

A pleasant change happened within this area and down this main road as cafes and shops reflecting these new cultures, started to open, along with community events and other communial activities that gave all the local populace a chance to experience other cultures.

Unfortunately, this "honeymoon" period lasted until the welcomed immigrants became more of a majority within this area. Now the cafes down this road are no go areas for people who dont speak a particular language, although you have everyright to dine at one of these establisments, the intimidation recieved makes sure that you will not dine their again.

After the intimadation came the physical attacks after dark, which werent only reserved for the local populace, as these immigrants have seemed to have brought they attitudes to other cultures with them, to date there have been five full blown streefights involving more then a hundred people each time, these mass brawls were always between the same two cultures, the Iraqi immigrants who have settled in that area, and the Kosovan immigrants who have also settltd in that area. Why they dont like each other I dont know, I dont know whether its politcal, historical, ideological or tribal, but they certainly dont like each other, and if you happen to be Black, then this is definately a no go area.

As the local populace slowly vacated the area, so did the small businesses and shops, as obviously people would now rather stay away. So what was once a vibrant road, full of small cafes and shops, that made a pleasant stroll into the city centre, is now a desolate road full of no go cafes and boarded up windows, that now makes an unavoidably short, look at no one even from the bus, journey to the city centre.

Unfortunately the experiences are plenty, both personal and from within my social circle, involving incidents with the NHS, Police, the local council, the benefit system and other welfare systems where allowences are made, or a blind eye turned towards these foreign cultures. I dont really like to say these foreign cultures as the city also has a small vibrant chinese area, hardly a "chinatown" but still, a pleasant experience free from the incidents mentioned above, whether its day or night.

It may sound extreme, but I hope the events of a main road and the allowences and blind eye turning arent a reflection of what could happen on a grander scale.

Only time will tell!

I am polsih and I have been in England for almost four years, working full time for two. i am working hard to pay my bills, rent etc trying to save up some money for when i go back to my country which is in a month time.
I strongly dissagree that we are stealing jobs from unemployed british people.. i have been working in a care home thatwas doing everything to get people from poland to come over and work for them because they couldnt get any british people for that job. i also worked in a hotel that would struggle if not around 12 to 15 polish workers. We are filling positions that british people simply dont want. do you call that a steal? What about a big amount of Ennglish people buying houses abroad because it is so much cheaper, they are renting it out to make an income. And they are ecouraged to do that by media etc. Would you call it a steal? Why not to let us be happy as well? Lets not lie, we are hard working people because we know how to appreciate havingANY job. You should come to Poland and see how hard life can be.
i am going back to poland because i might have some ideas how to make my life better over there, the ideas that i came up with while beeing here. And probably most of us will go back.

I am polsih and I have been in England for almost four years, working full time for two. i am working hard to pay my bills, rent etc trying to save up some money for when i go back to my country which is in a month time.
I strongly dissagree that we are stealing jobs from unemployed british people.. i have been working in a care home thatwas doing everything to get people from poland to come over and work for them because they couldnt get any british people for that job. i also worked in a hotel that would struggle if not around 12 to 15 polish workers. We are filling positions that british people simply dont want. do you call that a steal? What about a big amount of Ennglish people buying houses abroad because it is so much cheaper, they are renting it out to make an income. And they are ecouraged to do that by media etc. Would you call it a steal? Why not to let us be happy as well? Lets not lie, we are hard working people because we know how to appreciate havingANY job. You should come to Poland and see how hard life can be.
i am going back to poland because i might have some ideas how to make my life better over there, the ideas that i came up with while beeing here. And probably most of us will go back.

Just two points:

It is clear the government is not in control and has failed in every department.

And:

By limiting numbers we are protecting nations like poland, they now have a massive brain drain. And alot of eastern european women are forced into prostitution.

What is more alarming is the number of africans trying to get to spain, i cant see them working on our biulding sites, and working in our fields.

In response to Hugh...

I am not sure that the situation of Polish, Hungarian and Lativan migration is really analogus to a German travelling 15 minutes down the road to what just happens to be Holland.

I am a pro-european, pro-single market, pro-free movement of people, but the current situation isnt really what even the most ardent europhile had in mind!

Its about the strain on housing, education, the NHS and in less than 24 months time every council when the families that will be amongst some of the lowest paied in the UK begin to start to qualify for UK benefits.

As Paula wrote, I have friends who through no falut of there own are not the brightest buttons in the box are now being squeezed out of the low paid jobs by 'ee's who are willing to jet paid even less!

You also mention the Single European Act - this has provision for Liberiliastion of Eneergy Markets.... why is it then that the french and german markets are NOT liberiliased, yet all our major energy companies are now German (Eon, RWE) or French (EDF, GDF) owned??

To Glen Curtis

I grew up in Colchester and Ipswich and to be honest East Anglia could do with a bit of pepping up. It is the most selfish inward backward looking part of the country anyway and many people in my
school were not afraid of expressing distaste at anything that was not East Anglian born and bred. I am a Londoner by birth.

I麓m sure if you made an effort to integrate them, get out there go to their homes, invite them into the community, teach them a few words of english and make them feel happy I麓m sure the relaxed side of east Anglian life would appeal to them.

It seems that I am the first Pole here, well.
Here is my short story, and I must admit, that most of my friends would have similar ones!
I came here, at age of 21, after two very succesfull years as office manager in one of major Swedish companies in Poland. One day I decided that I had had enough and want to try something new in my life. I wanted to explore, what more is out there, and where it can take me? UK was my choice, mainly because of language - English is tought in Poland from age of seven and proximity to home.

My first job as KP - gave me 拢3 an hour. But I was still able to save some money, after working six days a week for 16 hours a day.

Ofcourse - there was no life, no entertainment, cinema or beer on Friday night....

For the next few years I've been working in various bars and restaurants, from waiter, supervisor to assistant manager, and now working as office assistant - it was and still is great!!!

However in the during these years I still needed something else, I fell lack of something in my life.
Therefore finished off my studies, back home. Flying to Poland every other week for sessions at University wasn't easy at all, especially when working in the bar! Well I have managed, and got my BA two years ago hurrrey!

Although I am here five years now I have used GP once, went to Walking Clinic once and never was on benefits. For all these years I am paying taxes and NI contributions in this country because this is fair. But still going back home, whenever need to see doctor, dentist or do my health check.

If one day will have children, I know will definitely go back home, as would like my kids to know my country, family and friends, and I am not the only one. Britain no worries!

Most recently I have joined internet portal for Polish Proffessionals working in London - and within 2 months there are now than 200 people registered, all working for international companies, here in capital. Please note, that working in UK Poles, are not only taking your building, waiting and kitchen positions, but are moving up - to the banks, hospitals. Neither have I claimed benefits in this country.

As far as I am concern most Poles are practicing and planing the same!!!

Suprprisingly Poland is now considering opening its own labour markets to 30 000 Ukrainians to work on the farms, as Poland lacks labourers.

It seems that I am the first Pole here, well.
Here is my short story, and I must admit, that most of my friends would have similar ones!
I came here, at age of 21, after two very succesfull years as office manager in one of major Swedish companies in Poland. One day I decided that I had had enough and want to try something new in my life. I wanted to explore, what more is out there, and where it can take me? UK was my choice, mainly because of language - English is tought in Poland from age of seven and proximity to home.

My first job as KP - gave me 拢3 an hour. But I was still able to save some money, after working six days a week for 16 hours a day.

Ofcourse - there was no life, no entertainment, cinema or beer on Friday night....

For the next few years I've been working in various bars and restaurants, from waiter, supervisor to assistant manager, and now working as office assistant - it was and still is great!!!

However in the during these years I still needed something else, I fell lack of something in my life.
Therefore finished off my studies, back home. Flying to Poland every other week for sessions at University wasn't easy at all, especially when working in the bar! Well I have managed, and got my BA two years ago hurrrey!

Although I am here five years now I have used GP once, went to Walking Clinic once and never was on benefits. For all these years I am paying taxes and NI contributions in this country because this is fair. But still going back home, whenever need to see doctor, dentist or do my health check.

If one day will have children, I know will definitely go back home, as would like my kids to know my country, family and friends, and I am not the only one. Britain no worries!

Most recently I have joined internet portal for Polish Proffessionals working in London - and within 2 months there are now than 200 people registered, all working for international companies, here in capital. Please note, that working in UK Poles, are not only taking your building, waiting and kitchen positions, but are moving up - to the banks, hospitals. Neither have I claimed benefits in this country.

As far as I am concern most Poles are practicing and planing the same!!!

Suprprisingly Poland is now considering opening its own labour markets to 30 000 Ukrainians to work on the farms, as Poland lacks labourers.

It seems that I am the first Pole here, well.
Here is my short story, and I must admit, that most of my friends would have similar ones!
I came here, at age of 21, after two very succesfull years as office manager in one of major Swedish companies in Poland. One day I decided that I had had enough and want to try something new in my life. I wanted to explore, what more is out there, and where it can take me? UK was my choice, mainly because of language - English is tought in Poland from age of seven and proximity to home.

My first job as KP - gave me 拢3 an hour. But I was still able to save some money, after working six days a week for 16 hours a day.

Ofcourse - there was no life, no entertainment, cinema or beer on Friday night....

For the next few years I've been working in various bars and restaurants, from waiter, supervisor to assistant manager, and now working as office assistant - it was and still is great!!!

However in the during these years I still needed something else, I fell lack of something in my life.
Therefore finished off my studies, back home. Flying to Poland every other week for sessions at University wasn't easy at all, especially when working in the bar! Well I have managed, and got my BA two years ago hurrrey!

Although I am here five years now I have used GP once, went to Walking Clinic once and never was on benefits. For all these years I am paying taxes and NI contributions in this country because this is fair. But still going back home, whenever need to see doctor, dentist or do my health check.

If one day will have children, I know will definitely go back home, as would like my kids to know my country, family and friends, and I am not the only one. Britain no worries!

Most recently I have joined internet portal for Polish Proffessionals working in London - and within 2 months there are now than 200 people registered, all working for international companies, here in capital. Please note, that working in UK Poles, are not only taking your building, waiting and kitchen positions, but are moving up - to the banks, hospitals. Neither have I claimed benefits in this country.

As far as I am concern most Poles are practicing and planing the same!!!

Suprprisingly Poland is now considering opening its own labour markets to 30 000 Ukrainians to work on the farms, as Poland lacks labourers.

Hello,

Have you ever thought how hard might it be to work and live abroad because your country is poorer than onother. The trugh is nobody forced you, but isn't it just a theory? It's usually live and the situation what can push you to make a decision to go into a big wilde jungle. I must admit I'm nicely supprised about all of the comments above and that gives me a bit of hope. But being absolutely honest with you (not rud) all of that talk about equal opportunities is ONE BIG FALSE. How can you asspect somebody to work in your country for smaller money and doing "the crap jobs" only. How that person should support herself? Obvioslouy there's no chance for own house, so he has to pay the rent, he must eat something and I don't think he can afford flying to Poland every week just to do the shopping an lots lots of others. So it's not only about earning but olso bout spending money.Plus count how much tax they are paying and also the fact that most of them don't claim it back even when they are entilted to do it. You can only try to imagin the amount which stays in custom's pocket (more money to pay more benefits:).

I do agree with you that there's lots of people in this country are claiming benefits just because they are to lasy to find a job, not because they can't get it. Tell me why nobody is complaining about some really well organised ethnic groups who are simply only using your system. They will never identify themselfs as Brits. They just live here comfortably without ever respecting your traditions. I must admit they are very clever about what they do but please tell me why nobody never mantion that problem. As far as I'm concern lots of English pople are upset about that. Is it because they even control your medias and they CENSOR THE INFORMATION GIVEN TO THE PUBLIC and they are highliting other issues to hide a bigger problem????????

Also being absolutely honest with you (not rud) all of that talk about equal opportunities is ONE BIG FALSE. I've experienced that on my skin and I know hundred of people who can say the same.

I think it's also worth to say to you what, I've been told by one of very hard working Irish man, who sold me a fridge:
"The only thing, which holds me in this country is a pond, beside it it's really crap".

SO WAKE UP BRITISH GOVERNMANT AD OPEN YOUR EYES !!!!!

To Simon

I honestly think the problem of immigration is shared by Germany as well. Here every second person is a foreigner and many of them have unlimited right of residence here. Many of these people come from outside the EU that is why I am sure Germany was not prepared to take as many people from inside the EU despite them being fellow citizens!

I feel this cultural mix is very refreshing. I think the problem of the NHS is a simple one, there is not enough money in the public purse to support it this has been the case for a long time and I therefore feel we should adopt the German system of social insurance. Under which despite similar pressures as in England, I received a routine operation within 3 weeks of being diagnosed having seen a specialist within a week.

I would just like to point out to tom and the others who claim to have been working in this country for three, four and five years, that if this is the case then you must have been doing so illegaly!

The best allowance would have been a student visa, which allows for less than 20 hrs a week... Assuming that the local bar doesnt pay 拢100/hour I am not sure how this facilitates a fotrnightly flight back to Poland to comple a BA degree? ... But if you were on a course in Poland you would not have been eligable for a UK Student VIAS!

Is this the next sensation to rock John Reid, and the 91热爆 Office, 1000's of eastern european, students given student or au pere visa's to which they werent entitled???

I take issue with the assumption that many migrants are doing the manual jobs that British workers no longer want to do because the wages are too low or they are too lazy.

Young people here from poor backgrounds do not expect to work the fields for pocket money if they have the intellectual skills to attend university. Such exploitation would make a mockery of all the achievements of the British labour movement over the years, for decent wages, safe working conditions, access to education, qualifications and equality.

With high council taxes, rents, and rising utility bills Brtish workers know they cannot survive on wages set at below the minimum wage. Few would like to see the clock turned back to allow the exploitation of migrant labour in the way irish construction workers were exploited for many years.

It is only a matter of time before incoming migrant workers are drawn into organising for better wages and working conditions. Such working class solidarity will really cheer up our politicians when inflation begins to nudge upwards, because they have failed to keep down the costs of housing, transport and essential services.

i have been living in England a little while now, and always thought of English people as understanding, kind and not selfish. But now i am wondering if it`s really true? now i get up every morning and wonder how many REAL "how are you?" am i going to hear.
Think of yourselfs as the lucky ones...you dont have to go abroad and change your life up side down to give yourself and your family a better life.

you should think of yourselfs as the lucky ones. you dont have to go abroad and change your life up side down to make sure you give your family and yourself a better life and hopefully future.

I am a Bulgarian male 28 years old and here in Britain 5 years now.
I can tell you from experience that the general English (British)person is friendly and understandable according us Bulgarian immigrants being here.
We are not Communists or corrupted or desperate to get to Britain or fit any other silly description , we are people with proper way of living ,traditions and old culture( much older than the British one)
We are here to teach you that the Organic - fruits, vegetables , Yogurt , feta cheese , olives and wine are vitally important for your health and good looks. As well as WORK and PRODUSING of material and scientific products of any kind and size.
Britain was Great Britain when most of You British people ware thinking and acting very similar to how We act now - working hard to build up our lives from the founding of our old and very well capt traditions and values.
We are here to build another Great Britain - even stronger than the one before. We are here to help you and I think you helped us a lot by letting us live along you and giving us green light .You will never regret for what you have done.

And I think it is time to change your government with a conservative one :)

To Tom

I think it is wonderful that you are enjoying life in England and working so hard, as I am a brit living in Germany it seems like me that you allow most of this mostly racist media enhanced banter to go over your head, that is great, I do the same. I see you as a fellow EU citizen and I very nearly got a job in Poland as a teacher myself. You seem to work much harder than I do, even though I work much harder than most of my fellow students here in Cologne to suport myself, probably all together with university and homework 50-60 hrs per week. Go for it!!

To Ewa

I am very sympathetic towards you especially as it seems things aren麓t going so well for you. The people who express these views above are the product of an institutional racism. This institutional racism comes from racist elements in our society who have sympathetic ears in the tabloid media. As the 91热爆 freely admits the high class media of which the 91热爆 is a part takes tabloid news and tries to provide a more balenced viewpoint on it. Sadly I SEEM TO BE THE ONLY PERSON OF BRITISH ORIGIN WHO DOESN麓T BELIEVE THIS TABLOID RIGHT WING RUBBISH. Sorry it makes me angry too. Good luck with your life. I wish you well.

Hugh,

Dont get me worng I am not anti-imigration, and I too find new cultrual experiences refrshing, but I wouldnt call practically eveyone I meet walking into town being a Pole to be clutrually refreshing... I am not sure where you live, but I live in Derby which has had a vibrant mix of british, indian and pakistani cultures.. however the recent infulx of 1000's of (mainly) Poles has started to distrupt the hither to happy haromy!

Many residential houses in the rental sector are now being snapped up by groups of up to TEN poles in a single terrace, with many of the problems described above, exessive drinking, loud music, a 'gang' culture oustside the house.... this just serves to makre the rest of the surrounding community more insular, reteating into their own homes, and [ethnic] communities - as shame given that another couple of years would have allowed the 'resident' communites to have come ''toghether'' to face up to the new challenge rather that retreaing to the comfort of their own groups... I really beilve that the influx of eastern europeans has the potential to undo tens of years of progress of integration of white and asian communities.

Imagine how the Turks would have reacted to 600k poles moving into live and work in germany?!

I take issue with the assumption that many migrants are doing the manual jobs that British workers no longer want to do because the wages are too low or they are too lazy.

Young people here from poor backgrounds do not expect to work the fields for pocket money if they have the intellectual skills to attend university. Such exploitation would make a mockery of all the achievements of the British labour movement over the years, for decent wages, safe working conditions, access to education, qualifications and equality.

With high council taxes, rents, and rising utility bills Brtish workers know they cannot survive on wages set at below the minimum wage. Few would like to see the clock turned back to allow the exploitation of migrant labour in the way irish construction workers were exploited for many years.

It is only a matter of time before incoming migrant workers are drawn into organising for better wages and working conditions. Such working class solidarity will really cheer up our politicians when inflation begins to nudge upwards, because they have failed to keep down the costs of housing, transport and essential services.

To our friend who wants a conservative government... this is also part of the problem.. the Eastern Europeans also bring with them their anti-gay, anti-jewish, and their 1960's views towards women with them.....

No doubt why you want to see a Conservative government!

One of the upsides, I hope, that Polish immigration has is that when the do go back to thier own countries a bit of liberal tolerance will have rubbed off on them and they will look to vote out some of the right-wing fascists they have running their own country....

If only they were all 'refugees' escaping a right-wing, corrupt, autogracy... I note thay Lec Voenca has resigned is Solidarity membership!

To Simon

There are also many Poles in Germany don麓t get me wrong. Germany麓s two main strikers Podolski and Klose are of Polish origin for example. As I said every second person in Nordhein-Westfahlen is a foreigner, that is the way things are going.

My polish friends say this is what people do in Poland hang around with friends and play music. You have seen Pakistanis have you ever tried engaging in conversation with one or having a best friend as one. Try getting out there and becoming friends with the Poles, they are usually a lot more highly educated and loving than they may seem. They do not intend to intimidate people they are just making new friends with
their fellow immigrants. The thing we
don麓t understand is that they are much more socially minded than us and they form groups very easily, ENglish people are more cautious. I was involved in a professional opera as a solo singer with polish orchestra and actors, they are fun loving people, sometimes a little arrogant but fun and I麓m sure if you took an interest in them they would take an interest in YOU!!

As for Turks my flatmate in Wuppertal was a Turk and he had the most multicultural set of friends of any man I know, don麓t assume get out there and LIVE WITH THEM, prefably in harmony as much as possible

To Mark from Ireland - I'm so sorry to disallusion you, but there are people in the UK who have been waiting for a lot longer than 5 years for a resolution to their claim. There are many people sitting here on section 4 support, people who cannot be returned to their country of origin because there is a war, no safe route, no airport, no government or the country has refused to recognise them as a citizen. In the UK they are now expected to wait 14 years until the government process them through the general amnesty. That means they survive on a 拢35 a week voucher, which they cannot exchange for anything but food; (no soap, no razor blades, no underpants, no toothbrush [but they can get NHS dentistry - work that one out]) and all shreds of human dignity are stripped away. Would any sane or humanitarian society tolerate this. We, in Europe, have created the ultimate scape goat and underclass for all our ills: the Asylum Seeker.

To the man who is so worried about our prisons filling with 'foreign criminals'. Would he please look at the UK's obligations re the 51 Refugee convention and ask why we are imprisoning prople who arrive without travel documents and those who deliberately make fraudulent Asylum claims because they are destitute and are starving. How did the 4th biggest ecconmy in the world become so miserly - is that perhaps why we are the 4th biggest and does everybody else out there feel so well off? Look around the world and you will find that any government in trouble has a quick go at migrants because it satisfys local voters - George Bush and the Mexican question, our own beloved labour or conservative parties?.....oooooooowwww migrants - maybe they have 2 heads and will steal our jobs. Maybe they will force us to like curry or chinese food. Is it impossible to like someone from Lithuania without them corrupting my children? People are good or they are bad and each nationality has its fair proportion. Personaly I've met more idiots in the UK than I have from abroad so I'm quite happy for people to come here. Ewan Roberts

I am a migrant worker from Poland. I came here 2 years ago with my wife. I can understand the doubts some English people have concerning this issue but let me present it from my perspective. My wife and I both work in the NHS. Before the arrival of migrant workers from Eastern Europe these posts were vacant. There were days when the supervisor was the only person on the shift because it was impossible to find people willing to do these jobs. Taking into account current problems the NHS is facing a pay rise to attract workers would be very unlikely. Many of these posts would never be filled otherwise. I agree that such a wave of people puts pressure on the housing market, but claims about schools and other services being overburdened are not always true. The vast majority of people who came here are young people. Those who have kids probably account for less than 5 % of the total number. Many are very well educated. They come here to get on the property ladder, save some money, improve their English and broaden their horizons. Do you think that someone who is a law graduate, or a qualified teacher would like to work in the restaurant for the rest of his life? My wife and I are going back in 2 years time. We fell in love with Britain but we would never be able to afford a house in the South East. With the money we saved here we will probably be able to avoid taking a mortgage. Polish houses despite recent boom are still much cheaper and they will offset our lower wages back home. It is hard to predict how many will decide to stay. But I don鈥檛 think that a well educated couple which after 4-5 years of working here and saving enough to build a 3 bedroom house in Poland would stay here longer just to clean up the tables. Many of my friends already lwent back. Now with other countries opening up their labour markets I don鈥檛 think this issue is as serious as some people would like to present it.

600,000 Poles, at least. From a country where abortion is almost impossible, reflecting a very restricted view of women's rights, where civil rights marches are banned and the police arrest lesbians and gay men demonstrating for rights. Where they have one of the most right-wing elected governments in Europe, and substantial parties that are even more prejudiced, and racist. Where even The Pope tries to press for the right-wing Catholic radio stations to moderate their streams of hate. Are the new Poles in Britain fleeing those attitudes (slowing any change that might otherwise happen there?), or bringing them here?

Who cares? Those of us in Britain who have fairly good reason to feel somewhat insecure in our rights, in our safety. Newsnight forgot entirely to mention this, concentrating entirely on the economic. But not everything comes down to money. This is where New Labour shows its white, male, middle-class blindness to reality. And Newsnight did too.

Always, with mass immigration, it is the already disadvantaged who pay the social price, who get squeezed into worse work, worse homes, worse public provision, get to feel less integrated, more vulnerable, because the new arrivals always first arrive in the poorest areas. And yet the disadvantaged are often least equipped to cope, or to welcome them. So tensions erupt. How many of these new arrivals will soon be supporters of the BNP?

When what is now the EU started, with freedom of labour movement as a vital part of the Common Market, an integral part of it was that the countries would be up to a certain standard before being full members, economically, legally, and socially, to cushion such issues. There were transition periods, with aid and guidance, in preparation.

But pressure from America, channeled by our Prime Minister, set that entirely aside in the vast expansion that brought in Poland. A headlong rush that looks more and more like using the EU for the right-wing US foreign policy purpose of cementing a non-Russian block rather than for its original purpose.

Now the PM has turned a blind eye to the vast numbers migrating. And they will turn a blind eye to the social consequences. But does Newsnight have to do the same?

What is more Simon, the polish women are
renown over here as being some of the most beautiful in Europe, I would vouch for that look out for the singers Pauline C. and Karoline B, they are absolutely gourgeous, all people are gourgeous, just that most british people don麓t want to realise it.

Hugh,

Had to reply to you patronising post before I went to bed! Yes, I have many asian friends... I went to a school that was almost 60% non-white so I dont think I need any advice on how to interact with other religons and cultures...

My efforts at trying to become 'pal-ly'with my new polish neibourghs in a vein effort not to have to listen to dance music, (of the 1990's heavy base genre), at gone 12 o'clock at night resulted in... I am para-prahsing here... but 'get lost queer'!

Frankly I am one of the increasing number of hardworking, high-ish tax paying, perviously pro-european, liberals who is starting to think hold on a minute here this is all wrong... I notice you didnt respond to the energy markets issues... and frankly your comment about Turks is a lot more telling of your (and german) attiudes to non-whites then mine is to the 'measured' movement of EU citizens!

Can someone please explain the economic benefit of importing thousands of uneducated spouses who can't speak English into the most deprived parts of Britain? This phenomenon never seems to get explained even though 75% of Pakistani marriages in places like Bradford involve introducing a spouse from rural Pakistan.

I had to chuckle when someone mentioned that a school in Slough had to accomodate 50 Polish kids who couldn't speak English. In Bradford the majority of kids starting school are unable to speak English even though they were born locally - a situation which has been going on for years. Numerous schools are entirely composed of kids for whom English is a foreign language.

Why is it that we in the western world always want the best of both worlds!?
From watching the programme tonight, 22nd August, I would have to agree with the former CBI chairman who said that we (western society) are becoming more lazy and fat, just take a look at the obesity problem. Yet, while we want a more healthy lifestyle and eat more fruit and veg, it is the migrants who are out in the fields getting us our produce. The reason is because we are leaving school and are deciding what we want and what we don't want to work as. God forbid that some people would have to get up early in the morning and work for a living. Given the alternative, staying in bed and living on benefits, i would say that the government is too soft on it's own citizens. From the report 97% of worker were working full time and 98% applied for a National Insurance number. In the period May 2004 to June 2006, only 5,943 applied for income support and Jobseeker's Allowance. Of these, only only 768 were allowed to proceed for further consideration. So why is it that once the issue of migration comes to the forum you hear the general phrase that peole are only coming to Britain to claim benefits? 768 out of 447,000 seems a low number to me. Maybe the British public should wake up and see that the only people claiming benefits are themselves!

Nice to see so many recent Eastern Europeans immigrants SUDDENLEY appear on a 91热爆 Newsnight forum/blog spreading the good news. How very unlikely. Call me cynical but I believe the Milbank tendency鈥� is alive and well ands working overtime tonight with its patented New Labour 'reality control'.

Hugh Waldock,

I think you're missing the point and assuming that anyone who wants to see controls on immigration as being in some way ill-educated and/or racist/xenophobic.
No sensible person is saying that Poles, Bulgarians, etc etc are any better or worse on average than the average British person and there are equal amounts of good, bad, mad, sad individuals in any given country, society etc.
The question is whether yet another wave of mass immigration in an already overcrowded and public service stretched country is justifiable/beneficial to those already living here? Presumably you would be happy one day soon to see the South East of England completely concreted over as is the case in say coastal Japan where there are 120 million people living in a confined space? If so fine but I think you are in the minority though a minority supported by la la New Labour unfortunately

Hugh at 65#

I am another who doesent believe this right wing tabloid rubbish, but I would like to know what your interpretation and definiton of racism is, do the two ever conradict each other?

I wear 2 hats when it comes to the subject of immigration.
I admire the strong work ethic brought to this country by many migrant workers and have been particularly impressed by Polish nationals.

However I feel that organisations such as the CBI(mouth piece of big business) have completely ignored the devastating effect that cheap labour is having on the working classes. The people that really suffer are cleaners, labourers, the hospitality sector, agricultural workers, retail and factory workers.
How many of our liberal minded political elite are effected by the new arrivals. How many MPs have lost their 拢50,000 per annum salaries as a result of our open door policy? non of them yet!!
I also took offence to the former directer of the CBI calling British workers fat and lazy, I can tell you that I have applied for work not paying much more than the minimum wage only to rejected out of hand when employers have seen my age.
Why employ a 40 year local when you can employ a 20 year old lithuanian.

The government are also playing into the hands of very right wing political groups that will reap the benefits of an electorate that feels forgotten and betrayed by the so called Labour party.

Tony Blair hasn't got a clue, his government very nearly gave new migrant workers access the social security system from day 1, can you believe it. Welcome to Britain, you haven't paid a penny in tax yet but if you have any problems just pop down to your local DHSS office and we'll sort you out with some money.

We also have a large number of foreign nationals languishing in our prisons for crimes ranging from fraud to rape and murder at a cost of more than 拢2000 per week! per minate at high security prisons.
We really do have wonderfull vetting
procedures in this country, we only take the best foreign nationals!

One easy question, how many foreign nationals are there in the country now? Answer: The government dont know! I arrest my case.

yours very disalutioned

Then Simon

WHAT IN THE HELL IS YOUR PROBLEM, these are people just the same as your asian friends from school.

I am the least patronising person in the
world but when you say you like to SEE the odd asian, that makes me very worried.

I don麓t see why my comment about Turkish
people in Germany was at all "telling".
Abdul was friends with loads of people. Italians, Afghanistanis, Argentianians, Germans, Iranian-Greeks you name it, the
whole world was our guest, and that is not a bad thing. Turkish people are particularly social.

The only way to really know how I feel is to live and integrate into another culture yourself, go abroad and live it, then you will understand
these peoples intentions, they need us and we should support them. Then in turn when their country is stronger again, they will return the favour, believe me.

to Simon

sorry mate but you are wrong about us the BULGARIANS being anti-gay and anti- Jewish and all these views from the 1960-s . I can prove it to you and anybody interested that in my country during the second world war genocide against the Jewish people not even a single Jewish man was killed or sent to concentration camp , not even one . so how can I be anti - Jewish

do not think that eastern Europe is light years behind Britain in human rights and liberties only because you do not know much of the history.

EASTERN EUROPE IS NOT THE THIRD WORLD

To David Brown

I am obviously defending a minority viewpoint here, but this is a SHARED PROBLEM. It is not just occuring in England but all over Europe in Holland, Germany and we have seen the recent problems also in Paris.

It is not a problem that is unique to our country but all over. While the Germans do make it hard for people to stay here, the approach to citizenship and immigration is much more liberal and
opponents to it in the general public are not given air time on the news. There is much less of a problem with this kind of tension, more integration and far more tolerance. We are simply not used to it. It is a problem for the Poles more than anyone else becuase they are losing their brightest people.

It is only becuase the original extremist views are given so much air time on TV that people start to agree with them and blame these people themselves. In my opinion it should simply not be discussed, then this institutional predjudice would not be implemented in the first place.

It seems that no-one out there has any other opinion except regurgitating the arguments they have heard in the press with the same language of the reporters. It麓s like a huge computer programme of the population. The suggestion of things not working is initiated in the press and when lots of these people arrive, people automatically take a negative attitude, what they hear and see on TV in in the press is seemed to be verified. I am seeking to initiate a counter movement to this. one that is positive about immigration, and this is no Labour spin it comes out of my own experience and my beliefs.

It is amazing and so harmful, what the press CAN do sometimes.

Good night all

The amount of immigrants coming into the country is a disgrace to Britain, our predecessors who fought for this country and the countries where the immigrants are coming.

What about the British people, what it means to be British, proud, work hard - increase Britain community spirit and bonding togetherness of British people. This is being taken away - Brits standing by to let a whole new kind of people gradually rule the country and take over and sponge. The majority of Brits want to be made welcome, not the gov't concentrating on outsiders first.

Letting all these immigrants in is destroying our way of life and culture - theb majority don't care for the country - this is morally racist against the British people and foreigners being asked to do our gutter jobs, they should be making there country like ours, not running away, for a crap life for the next generation. This country is small enough and very densely populated, without having to let in tens of thousands of foreign immigrants in - who will ulter are way of life.
WAKE UP BRITAIN AND WORK TOGETHER, DON'T FORGET WHO WE ARE.
Steve Wager 17

I wear 2 hats when it comes to the subject of immigration.
I admire the strong work ethic brought to this country by many migrant workers and have been particularly impressed by Polish nationals.

However I feel that organisations such as the CBI(mouth piece of big business) have completely ignored the devastating effect that cheap labour is having on the working classes. The people that really suffer are cleaners, labourers, the hospitality sector, agricultural workers, retail and factory workers.
How many of our liberal minded political elite are effected by the new arrivals. How many MPs have lost their 拢50,000 per annum salaries as a result of our open door policy? non of them yet!!
I also took offence to the former directer of the CBI calling British workers fat and lazy, I can tell you that I have applied for work not paying much more than the minimum wage only to rejected out of hand when employers have seen my age.
Why employ a 40 year local when you can employ a 20 year old lithuanian.

The government are also playing into the hands of very right wing political groups that will reap the benefits of an electorate that feels forgotten and betrayed by the so called Labour party.

Tony Blair hasn't got a clue, his government very nearly gave new migrant workers access the social security system from day 1, can you believe it. Welcome to Britain, you haven't paid a penny in tax yet but if you have any problems just pop down to your local DHSS office and we'll sort you out with some money.

We also have a large number of foreign nationals languishing in our prisons for crimes ranging from fraud to rape and murder at a cost of more than 拢2000 per week! per minate at high security prisons.
We really do have wonderfull vetting
procedures in this country, we only take the best foreign nationals!

One easy question, how many foreign nationals are there in the country now? Answer: The government dont know! I arrest my case.

yours very disalutioned

I wanted you guys to see this poem, I wrote it for my girlfriend who is Jewish
and a refugee, it has also taken me a while to break down the cultural barriers and build up trust between me and her family. It shows the positive effect that immigration can have. She is an immigrant from a former communist country.

One heart was open, the others tied
Different people, two cultures, two destructive prides
She was ill, she was beaten, her innocent pet dog was to blame
For the others the Jews were all the same

She麓s physically small, with a typical face
Beautiful, shimmering with fear and grace
The post communist virus conquered them one by one
Till satanic predjudice overcame them and it was done

They ejected her identity
She became the star in her face
That all of a sudden seemed out of place

The hate bread
As the light of the sickle and hammer ebbed
These people were hunting a new October
They needed a substitute for the word 鈥渁ristocracy鈥�
鈥淪omeone else鈥� had to be to blame
And as usual it was my Jesus

Dear Hugh,

Could you please tell me to get out more, as I'm feeling slightly left out.

It seems that the left wing conscentious is even more extreme in germany then it is overhere, at least overhere we still have our (ever decreasing) sense of balanced rationale, not to give a citizen air time simply for opposing immigration policies, therefore sacrificing the freedom of speech, which is central to Western ideology, simply because it falls on the right side of the political spectrum, but after all, every historian knows that after every social revolution there follows a period of compensation as the revolutionised disassociate themselves from the pre-revolution identity, and well,lets face it, the pre-revolution identity of the germans had even more pararells with the ancient world then its other european imperial counterparts.

Thank you for thinking all our opinions come from the media, and not ones own personal experiences from within the country we live, maybe you should take your own advice and come back and live in this country at the same social-strata of the majority, who have to rely heavly on all the deteriorating services within the public sector, who have a family to support and children to raise, and not having the good fortune of being born into the security of the middle classes.

I doff my workingclass cap and wait to be patronised.

Please lets not keep clouding the issue, buy endlessly invoking the term racist when talking about immigration, the whole subject of the state of multiculturalism in Brittan, something we probably don鈥檛 really have, just lots of separate and increasing insular cultures is a big subject by is self.

Any how it鈥檚 about uncompetitive British business not wishing to pay a liveable wage to British workers, Sir digby telling us we are fat and lazy, using the excuse of economic growth to cover up the greed of his social membership for more profit, by pulling the rest of us into increasing poverty, as the price of there houses sore to unattainable levels, for the rest of us wishing to start out in the housing market. He has the nerve to say mortgaes rates will go up without low paid workers. So I have to be paid less, to keep his mortgage payment down, I鈥檓 increasingly feeling in a revolutionary mood as my worth to society is increasingly being dismissed as a negative statistic for the middle classes. The Polish are picking the fruit I eat, waiting on my table, when I can afford to eat out, and cleaning the local hospital etc but am I paying any less for these, No the boss has a new wing added his home, and I can take a run and jump for that desperately needed pay rise to pay for the endlessly increasing bills and stealth Taxes.

I鈥檝e seen the future, I live in a large work house, start work at 5 am in the morning at the Mill finish a 9 pm for six day a week 9 to 5 on a Sunday. But I鈥檓 great full for all my meals and two pence a week! Yes I see HARD TIMES ahead.

What makes me laugh is that all these opposition MPs (Conservatives) who are supposed to be believers in the free market keep saying that the Govt. should keep control of the situation whereas if they were true believers in 'The Market' then they would know that the situation would take care of itself. Economists know that if the economony took a downturn all the Polish people would leave rather than remain on social security.The reason they are here is to benefit from the wages ( which are higher than in the former communist countries)What I do think is sad is that many of the laboures are highly qualified and are working as fork lift drivers etc.Many people are saving to return. I was shocked by the partisan view of Newsnight actually. 91热爆 news 24 gave a more realistic account of immigration and the issues it poses.
Bascially I think immigration is a good thing. If the jobs weren't here to take they wouldn't be here/ (They also create a lot of jobs aswell)
Bus companies in particular, say they just weren't able to recruit drivers, now they can run a full service. We should be thankful!

Let's leave racism aside for a moment; most Poles don't look very different from white Brits. It's the less visible, but more audible factors that can cause problems. It seems to me that it is demographically foolish to take on board too many Poles and others who cannot communicate that well. Britain is not a country of permanent migration, like the USA.

Nor do I think that imperialism and colonialism are to blame, unless Mark Malone, in posting 53, can explain how Soviet imperialism was better than the capitalism that Poland now runs on.

I remember someone called Urszula Gacek on Newsnight last night (i.e. Tuesday 21st August 2006), probably the daughter of Polish immigrants herself, judging by her accent. Someone who then went "back" to Poland. There were thousands of refugees from Poland after WWII, and by now there are people in all walks of life in Britain with Polish names. Old Poles have assimilated.

But this new wave is different. I agree with Simon in posting 50. Not only am I a Europhile, but I spent a whole year in Communist Poland (Krak贸w) during the mid-1970s. And I read the language quite well (and speak it badly!). So I could hardly be anti-Polish. But I would prefer Western countries to invest heavily in Poland and the rest of Eastern & Central Europe - so that the people stay there.

It seems very problematical that vastly more Polish immigrants have come to Britain than na茂ve statistics predicted. These people could help build up Poland if enough investment went there, instead of them "exporting" fairly highly skilled people who end up picking vegetables in Britain, because it pays better.

And, crucially: the language factor. Britons are a joke when it comes to speaking foreign languages. But they take a terrible snooty and condescending attitude to any immigrant who can't speak proper, like. As soon as y'r average Brit hears someone murdering English, something in their brain switches off. And they start thinking that the language-mangler is simple-minded. My own mother is Dutch; I was brought up in Dewsbury and Batley. As a child, I saw the reactions to my muzzer's funny accent.

Laziness and social security is partially a red herring. Most Poles, if times get hard, will move on, or return to Poland. But if the economy is good and the Poles stay, they will often be exploited by unscrupulous employers and private job centres of dodgy repute. That was already mentioned on last night's Newsnight. Cheap labour is slave labour.

As for Digby, he should go back to the Dan Dare comic strip in Eagle where he belongs.

So, to sum up: Brits hate people who speak funny; and we shouldn't be robbing Poland of qualified nurses, doctors and so on, who end up as slave labourers doing degrading jobs.

Britain could leave the EU; but I think the disadvantages would prove to be greater than the advantages. A unified immigration and employment policy for the whole of the EU must be developed.

Here endeth the lesson.

I am somewhat confused about last night's documentary. One of the remarks made stated the future two EU Countries should be kept out because they are not as skilled. Yet, most of the highly skilled polish migrants are doing low skilled jobs. Most of the comments last night in relation to the status of the 2 countries was based on widespread hysteria, ignorance and prejudice. None of the contributors seems to know anything at all about Romania and Bulgaria. It is all in their language.
The millions of Romanians and Bulgarians already working abroad are not at all regarded as low skilled and criminals. Spain has offered legality this May to over half a million Romanians. I do not think it would have done so of they were criminals. Well done to you British, they are not even in and you already call us criminals and second class citizens. If you do not want us in tell us and we will understand but do not denigrate us about things that are not true. In contrast, to your homegrown born terrorists we share the same values as you do and we have decided to become democratic long ago. And we will do so with or without your help. And bydeway you should also realize that once Romania and Bulgaria joins EU they will have to contribute financially to the UNION>

I find it a bit funny that so many people here go on and on about "uneducated masses that come to this country and can't communicate all that well" and at the same time most posts in this thread are written with spelling mistakes...

I should add perhaps that I am Polish (and proud of it).

I watched newsnight last night and was suprised that Digby Jones got away with saying (twice) that Immigration means lower mortgages.
It might mean lower interest rates due to less inflationary pressures but the cost of housing has shot up and whoever says this is not partly due to immigation is living in a fantasy.
Gavin Esler you need to be more on the ball.

To J Last and others

I did get a bit carried away last night but I feel so strongly about this issue. it has personal connotations for me.

I dispair that I have twice been thumped
in my own town in England by someone who
didn麓t know me but here I can come back from a club quite happily at 5 am no problems. This seems to be a complete deterioration of order, and I dread to think what people do to foreigners.

I feel personally very strongly in favour of immigration, in the least case in can lead to a better life and in some cases actually save somones life. It seems that before the Poles it was the assylum seekers.

As you probably already know, I did go to private school but Tony Benn was an aristocrat gave it up and still became an outspoken commited socialist.

My family is living proof that immigrants contribute to national and global cohesion. But then my parents had traditional family values. My parents came from Malta and Italy after the war, settled in Acton and started their working careers as a sheet metal worker and a factory hand in a bread factory. I remember the trolley buses, the man in his big black cloak and hat who used to ignite the street lights at the back of our house. My parents attended night classes and went on to work as a design draftsman and a legal secretary. I teach; my son is a manager; my daughter is a sales consultant and has just gained a place to do her E Language degree; my Irish decent daughter-in-law is a paediatric nurse and my eldest son works for a business magazine editor out in China, providing 'stepping stones' for well known W corporations who want a foothold in China. My teaching assistant colleague is from E Europe: her grammar is poor and her ideas on training differ because of old style thinking that once constrained fast developments and was inflexible, but she is an enthusiastic educator and I gladly share all my knowledge and skills with her. My friend, whose parents origins are in an Indian village, is opening a brilliant nursery to nurture the gifts inherent in all children. So we are living proof that we have and do contribute towards national and global cohesion. We all had intentions to make our lives a success in the UK, despite the ups and downs life in general throws.

I live in Ealing now and the social 'scenery' has dramatically changed. Two years ago the local headline was that a landlady had been murdered by a Polish lodger. A year ago a young student with everything to live for was murdered by a Lithuanian. Today, young men and women jog to keep fit around the Common, its grassy kerbs lined with a convoy of campa-vans from abroad, seemingly housing young men from SE Europe, on the road. On every bench, every evening, E. European men gather and drink cans of beer, seemingly oblivious of the runners around the perimeter, but nevertheless, the atmosphere is intimidating. Perhaps they will enjoy the fun-fair that has recently arrived, but I don't think so. The fair, once free to wonder around, is now fenced off around its perimeter with entry points for the public to pay an entrance fee.

In their strangely unkempt garb, strange newcomers buy hard liquor from the corner shops, unpack it from its bag, walk out of the shop - buzzing with school children and parents, in and out, buying after-school goodies - open the bottle and openly drink it in broad daylight as they walk on to goodness knows where. If they don't walk on, they sit there on the pavement lining the shop window panes - a really strange sight if ever there was one...reminiscent of old Dickensian prints, texts and the like, or of sepia pictures of out-of-work men in their cloth caps gathered in groups on street corners, by-gone times.

Strange looking lost souls can also be seen early morning walking out onto the pavements from gaps between huge bill-boards and high street buildings, from their night sleep.

Groups of men with strangely shorn heads, attired in clothes that just don't fit with the usual tapestry of social clues, with a strange air about them, an air of the sinister and 'hard-done-by-ness' gather in places and in fours and fives as they get into their new shiny cars.

A father and son act?... The older strangely neat but scruffy man with a heavy accent does the old distraction routine - asks strange questions about the goods in our trolley - which I thought was genuine until I noticed the younger man hovering about around the back of us; my mother and I quickly pull our belongings together and leave the supermarket exit area with our plants and paint. Why are these people put in such a desperate situation that they have to resort to this sort of crime.

A seemingly astute black African couple - obviously also desperate but with an air of intelligence and well turned out resort to the same routine. My mother was 'crowded in' by this couple; her personal space unusually taken in a fairly empty supermarket as she shopped for items from the shelves. She luckily noticed the woman bent over, stooping into her handbag. My elderly mother looked at this young couple in utter amazement and questioned them. They immediately apologised and left. My parents did not have to resort to such tactics and had to start out much like everyone else with no family handouts, but jobs and night classes were accessible. Why do these new people feel they have to resort to crime? This does not lend itself to a general feel-good factor, essential for general well-being.

Why is it so easy for strange named people to fraud thousands of pounds out of bank accounts? My family have been victims of fraud twice in the last four years; unheard of before then! We complain to the police who give a crime reference number and say it is a very common occurrence. They do not follow it up because the banks waste police time by letting it go!!!! Isn't anyone concerned as to where all this stolen money is going to or what it may be financing??? Or are the insurance systems being regarded as a quick fix and greater responsibility assumed deferred.

I believe this is the result of a laissez-fair attitude to immigration. All the professionals are 'burdened' with paperwork of unprecedented levels, removing all joy and self-fulfillment from those jobs - target driven, assessments, initiatives and for why? To grind down moral? To drive down quality of staff and inevitably the wage bills? Why are there no rigorous tracking systems in place to keep check on who is entering the country? Everybody else is interrupted in their jobs by heavy duty tracking and initiatives. Why then not the immigration departments? So, are we right to think that targets and initiatives to improve quality are not morally genuine causes. You can see how easily the public's feel-good factor can be eroded; there is no logical cohesion. Surely it does not bode well to pursue only financial economic policies. In any case, they need to be thoroughly debated, explained and aired through the media.

The perception with families coming in is that they will hold traditional family values and will want to get their heads down and make a success of their lives here, rather than all these loose singletons milling around.

Many E Europeans are single, and are saving to take their earnings back with them. Those with children here do not attend, support or spend money at the school fetes or other school events; single men do not go to pubs to relax and drink. How does this out-flow of sterling fit with the UK economy. I presume that they are on low earnings and that much of it is swallowed up in rent and food here so much of the money stays. Although it is no life living next to an above-shop-flat with an overcrowded rowdy young E European group of men, wrangling, fighting and arguing, playing loud stereos until early hours. I presume the amount of sterling they take back with them is so small that it wont make a dent in the overall picture here. Perhaps the 'thinkers' have costed it out and that is how the UK pays for the E European drain of their own work-force.

And then we go to shops or have to explain...and explain again because they lack knowledge in the codes of conduct, conventions, protocols, nuances to deal with customers, the general public. I am only too happy to explain and share knowledge with others but NOT to my detriment: On my forms I cross all empty boxes with dashes and NA so that no one can fill them in, a practice my father showed me when he taught me how to write a cheque, a practice that is recommended as good advice in TV programmes such as Watch Dog and the like. Most counter clerks accept this, have always accepted this, but the new arrival insists, with a stern impolite tone, that the form is filled again leaving blank boxes for easier reading, because of his lack (Or perhaps, God forbid, in full knowledge of!... My daughter never ever received her medical card back from the passport office despite many calls to ask for its whereabouts!) the big picture and how things are on an every-day level. I informed him that I always do this for my personal security and data protection; he asks a colleague and of course she has to reiterate the training speak. Later, I ask another clerk and he says they like clear boxes because it looks neater.

Well, with new labour came the 'retro' trend and a distinct feel of back-tracking to the early 70s and starting over in another direction. But to retro to the 1800s???!!! A climate of despair; a requirement for everyone to keep facts, facts, facts...when it suits those in power! It's all a bit scary and seedy. I feel uncomfortable these days. Do I really want to be made to empathise with the discomforted in this way? No thank you. There must be better ways.

Having told all this, I do rather like the idea forwarded by another commentator: waves of people from further afield, in turn, arrive in E European fields to work. A picture of a wonderful human work-force in a 'Mexican wave' moving forever West...or East.... For certain, we live in a changing world; we always have; we always will. Dinosaurs could not control events despite their huge size. Will the human race prove they are anything more and be driven by equally pressing issues such as global warming a desperate side effect from overly embraced capitalism!

On a positive note, I will lift my spirits by following in my mother's footsteps and sign up to a green provider for my energy supply of electricity. I will look into the feasibility of home solar panels and small wind turbines and embrace the idea that planning regulations are being reconsidered by regulators.

My family is living proof that immigrants contribute to national and global cohesion. But then my parents had traditional family values. My parents came from Malta and Italy after the war, settled in Acton and started their working careers as a sheet metal worker and a factory hand in a bread factory. I remember the trolley buses, the man in his big black cloak and hat who used to ignite the street lights at the back of our house. My parents attended night classes and went on to work as a design draftsman and a legal secretary. I teach; my son is a manager; my daughter is a sales consultant and has just gained a place to do her E Language degree; my Irish decent daughter-in-law is a paediatric nurse and my eldest son works for a business magazine editor out in China, providing 'stepping stones' for well known W corporations who want a foothold in China. My teaching assistant colleague is from E Europe: her grammar is poor and her ideas on training differ because of old style thinking that once constrained fast developments and was inflexible, but she is an enthusiastic educator and I gladly share all my knowledge and skills with her. My friend, whose parents origins are in an Indian village, is opening a brilliant nursery to nurture the gifts inherent in all children. So we are living proof that we have and do contribute towards national and global cohesion. We all had intentions to make our lives a success in the UK, despite the ups and downs life in general throws.

I live in Ealing now and the social 'scenery' has dramatically changed. Two years ago the local headline was that a landlady had been murdered by a Polish lodger. A year ago a young student with everything to live for was murdered by a Lithuanian. Today, young men and women jog to keep fit around the Common, its grassy kerbs lined with a convoy of campa-vans from abroad, seemingly housing young men from SE Europe, on the road. On every bench, every evening, E. European men gather and drink cans of beer, seemingly oblivious of the runners around the perimeter, but nevertheless, the atmosphere is intimidating. Perhaps they will enjoy the fun-fair that has recently arrived, but I don't think so. The fair, once free to wonder around, is now fenced off around its perimeter with entry points for the public to pay an entrance fee.

In their strangely unkempt garb, strange newcomers buy hard liquor from the corner shops, unpack it from its bag, walk out of the shop - buzzing with school children and parents, in and out, buying after-school goodies - open the bottle and openly drink it in broad daylight as they walk on to goodness knows where. If they don't walk on, they sit there on the pavement lining the shop window panes - a really strange sight if ever there was one...reminiscent of old Dickensian prints, texts and the like, or of sepia pictures of out-of-work men in their cloth caps gathered in groups on street corners, by-gone times.

Strange looking lost souls can also be seen early morning walking out onto the pavements from gaps between huge bill-boards and high street buildings, from their night sleep.

Groups of men with strangely shorn heads, attired in clothes that just don't fit with the usual tapestry of social clues, with a strange air about them, an air of the sinister and 'hard-done-by-ness' gather in places and in fours and fives as they get into their new shiny cars.

A father and son act?... The older strangely neat but scruffy man with a heavy accent does the old distraction routine - asks strange questions about the goods in our trolley - which I thought was genuine until I noticed the younger man hovering about around the back of us; my mother and I quickly pull our belongings together and leave the supermarket exit area with our plants and paint. Why are these people put in such a desperate situation that they have to resort to this sort of crime.

A seemingly astute black African couple - obviously also desperate but with an air of intelligence and well turned out resort to the same routine. My mother was 'crowded in' by this couple; her personal space unusually taken in a fairly empty supermarket as she shopped for items from the shelves. She luckily noticed the woman bent over, stooping into her handbag. My elderly mother looked at this young couple in utter amazement and questioned them. They immediately apologised and left. My parents did not have to resort to such tactics and had to start out much like everyone else with no family handouts, but jobs and night classes were accessible. Why do these new people feel they have to resort to crime? This does not lend itself to a general feel-good factor, essential for general well-being.

Why is it so easy for strange named people to fraud thousands of pounds out of bank accounts? My family have been victims of fraud twice in the last four years; unheard of before then! We complain to the police who give a crime reference number and say it is a very common occurrence. They do not follow it up because the banks waste police time by letting it go!!!! Isn't anyone concerned as to where all this stolen money is going to or what it may be financing??? Or are the insurance systems being regarded as a quick fix and greater responsibility assumed deferred.

I believe this is the result of a laissez-fair attitude to immigration. All the professionals are 'burdened' with paperwork of unprecedented levels, removing all joy and self-fulfillment from those jobs - target driven, assessments, initiatives and for why? To grind down moral? To drive down quality of staff and inevitably the wage bills? Why are there no rigorous tracking systems in place to keep check on who is entering the country? Everybody else is interrupted in their jobs by heavy duty tracking and initiatives. Why then not the immigration departments? So, are we right to think that targets and initiatives to improve quality are not morally genuine causes. You can see how easily the public's feel-good factor can be eroded; there is no logical cohesion. Surely it does not bode well to pursue only financial economic policies. In any case, they need to be thoroughly debated, explained and aired through the media.

The perception with families coming in is that they will hold traditional family values and will want to get their heads down and make a success of their lives here, rather than all these loose singletons milling around.

Many E Europeans are single, and are saving to take their earnings back with them. Those with children here do not attend, support or spend money at the school fetes or other school events; single men do not go to pubs to relax and drink. How does this out-flow of sterling fit with the UK economy. I presume that they are on low earnings and that much of it is swallowed up in rent and food here so much of the money stays. Although it is no life living next to an above-shop-flat with an overcrowded rowdy young E European group of men, wrangling, fighting and arguing, playing loud stereos until early hours. I presume the amount of sterling they take back with them is so small that it wont make a dent in the overall picture here. Perhaps the 'thinkers' have costed it out and that is how the UK pays for the E European drain of their own work-force.

And then we go to shops or have to explain...and explain again because they lack knowledge in the codes of conduct, conventions, protocols, nuances to deal with customers, the general public. I am only too happy to explain and share knowledge with others but NOT to my detriment: On my forms I cross all empty boxes with dashes and NA so that no one can fill them in, a practice my father showed me when he taught me how to write a cheque, a practice that is recommended as good advice in TV programmes such as Watch Dog and the like. Most counter clerks accept this, have always accepted this, but the new arrival insists, with a stern impolite tone, that the form is filled again leaving blank boxes for easier reading, because of his lack (Or perhaps, God forbid, in full knowledge of!... My daughter never ever received her medical card back from the passport office despite many calls to ask for its whereabouts!) the big picture and how things are on an every-day level. I informed him that I always do this for my personal security and data protection; he asks a colleague and of course she has to reiterate the training speak. Later, I ask another clerk and he says they like clear boxes because it looks neater.

Well, with new labour came the 'retro' trend and a distinct feel of back-tracking to the early 70s and starting over in another direction. But to retro to the 1800s???!!! A climate of despair; a requirement for everyone to keep facts, facts, facts...when it suits those in power! It's all a bit scary and seedy. I feel uncomfortable these days. Do I really want to be made to empathise with the discomforted in this way? No thank you. There must be better ways.

Having told all this, I do rather like the idea forwarded by another commentator: waves of people from further afield, in turn, arrive in E European fields to work. A picture of a wonderful human work-force in a 'Mexican wave' moving forever West...or East.... For certain, we live in a changing world; we always have; we always will. Dinosaurs could not control events despite their huge size. Will the human race prove they are anything more and be driven by equally pressing issues such as global warming a desperate side effect from overly embraced capitalism!

On a positive note, I will lift my spirits by following in my mother's footsteps and sign up to a green provider for my energy supply of electricity. I will look into the feasibility of home solar panels and small wind turbines and embrace the idea that planning regulations are being reconsidered by regulators.

I am Dutch, self-employed, scientist. I moved to the UK close to two years ago mainly because I wanted to live in a more emancipated and an English-speaking country and among friendlier and more polite people... I took me about 9 months to figure out what some people's bizarre behaviour towards me meant; fortunately, many more here welcome foreigners. Still, it was a totally unexpected and totally new experience for me to be hated on the basis of my nationality.

Most of my clients are in other countries. I spend most of my money here because I live here. Financially, I would have been better off in Holland, but like some of you move to Spain and Australia, I moved to the UK because I expected life to be more pleasant here.

I would be saddened to see the UK (and the US, I might mention) go the same way as not-so-tolerant Holland.

One thing that has always strengthened Britain's economy and has made Britain special, as I understand it, is its OPENNESS.

Don't close up, Britain.

To J last

To prove this "hate" for want of a better word to describe it is media related, Germany is keen to keep an anti facist image that is why it doesn麓t publish anything in the media about foreigners.

Although people DO feel resentment sometimes, it keeps a lid on anti foreigner attiutudes becuase it keeps opinions isolated and does not orchestrate them into one big chorus of anti foreigner feeling. It is okay to hold these opinions oneself although they are often frowned upon by others.

Our press is not free either that is a myth, our press is fully controlled by a desire for the next story, at any cost to anyone, celebrities, politicians, and foreigners alike. Hence it is no longer free but controlled as everything else by people with a desire to make money and the market. I would like to see a clamp down on the press for the good of our society. A regulatory body put in place with real powers and with elected representitives of different communities on it.

Hope this helps.

In the last couple of few years I have seen lots of 'strangers' arrive in my area. I can see absolutely no sign that they are looking hard for work or that my community has been enriched by them.

I don't think we can claim to "own" the British Isles any more or less than anyone else. Let's face it, our history has always featured mass migration, from the romans to the anglo-saxons to the vikings to the normans etc etc. We really don't have any right to refuse people entry to our country, particularly as they are keen and willing to work and contribute to our society. And if they're not "integrating", why aren't we doing more to help them? For example, many thousands of Polish people are living here: this isn't going to change. Let's accept the situation and help them to feel part of our society; to learn conversational English and to engage with other local people. There's so much we can gain from this influx of skilled, optimistic workers.

It is very worrying how ill-informed and frankly, wrong, a lot of people are with their facts.

Several studies have shown that EU immigrants tend to be young, with 97% in employment. They pay more in taxes than they cost (in terms of benefits, healthcare etc), meaning they are subsidising our struggling healthcare and pensions systems.

According to the CBI, they have contributed to Britain's economic success by providing good quality yet cheap labour. Many are heavily over-qualified for the jobs that they fill. Many British workers, on the other hand, contribute nothing to their own development while expecting continued pay rises.

Finally, while many complain that their wages have been squeezed (apparently by immigrants), wage inflation in the past year has been 3.9% (ONS). It would be good if some of the people on this forum studied the facts rather than relying solely on anecdotal evidence. Immigration is, in fact, very good for this country.

By the way (and I know that this is anecdotal), I work in Hammersmith, London where there is a large Polish community and in the past two years the area has improved greatly.

I am Asian settled in England because Britain is a multicultural country. Britain has been proud to accept people from different backgrounds and cultures for many years and that is why the economy is one of the best in the world. The number of Eastern Europeans in this country is a small fraction of overall non British people here but people get worried as a result of influence by sick media that are promoting hatred in the society to sell and do business. If there is job for migrants, WHY NOT let them come and work here. They CAN NOT afford to come and live here if they can not work. Wages will NOT be affected if workers do not expect much. There are many organisations in this country to take care of the wages and keep them above the required level.

To Dennis Wills

Do you really expect people from a foreign country who come here on the basis of finding a better life far from home to have the same priorities as the british public.

These people need time to adapt and find themselves, they have shown considerable
courage in making the choices they have made. If they are polish, they are likeley to be highly qualified. If they want to enjoy a few months to find their feet, let them, I see it as a basic human kindness and decency to not simply assume they are lazy.

These people have suffered communism and years of being poor and they deserve a taste of freedom, before proceeding to kick start our economy, if that麓s what we insist on them doing.

I am amazed at the fuss. So Britain with a population of over 60,000,000 is worried by an influx of about 600,000 from the new EU member states. Ireland with a population of 4,000,000 has absorbed over 100,000, a much higher number per capita, with minimal fuss. The imigrants are mostly seen as benefitting the country.

Sorry?
"I read Mark Malone's Comments. First, what the UK does it its business."
what sort of logic is that Roberto eh?

I think many of its former colonies, and say for example iraq, lebanon, and the exploited within the UK might beg to differ.

The headlines ... and the truth

HALT THE TIDE OF EU MIGRANTS ... HIV CHILDREN BRINGING TIMEBOMB TO BRITAIN - Sunday Express, 20/8

Claim: Britain is confronted with an HIV time bomb when Romanian teenagers descend on our over-stretched health service.
Reality: There are 15,850 Romanians with HIV/Aids, according to the UN. Two thirds were infected while living in children's state institutions during the late 1980s. The infection rate is 0.7 per cent of the population - slightly less than in the UK.

* EAST EUROPE MIGRANTS HELP TAKE JOBLESS TO SIX-YEAR HIGH - Daily Mail, 17/8

Claim: Unemployment has soared to its highest level for more than six years as thousands of workers arrive from eastern Europe.
Reality: While the unemployment rate rose last month, the number of people in work grew by 42,000 over the three months to March 2006 and by 240,000 over the year, to reach 28.94 million - the highest number of people in work since records began in 1971.

* MIGRANTS GET BRITS' PAY SLASHED BY 50 PER CENT - The Sun, 18/8

Claim: Earnings of British builders and other manual workers have slumped by 50 per cent as a flood of east European migrants drives down wages.
Reality: The annual growth rate in average earnings excluding bonuses, was 3.9 per cent in June 2006, up 0.1 per cent on the previous month. Including bonuses wages grew by 4.3 per cent, up 0.2 per cent on the previous month.

* UNCHECKED IMMIGRATION IS PUTTING BRITONS OUT OF WORK - Daily Telegraph, 18/8

Claim: The unprecedented influx of newcomers has had an impact on the availability of social housing.
Reality: The shortage of homes in Britain pre-dates the arrival of east European workers. Accession state workers do not qualify for council housing.

* CHEERS, WE'RE COMING TO RIP YOU OFF - People 20/8

Claim: Mafia chiefs in Bulgaria are plotting to flood Britain with heroin, prostitutes and guns when they join the EU in January.
Reality: The Centre for the Study of Democracy, a Sofia-based think-tank, found the crime rate in Bulgaria was lower than the European average with crime rates falling by half between 2001 and 2004. It is now safer than Denmark and Australia.

* HOW THE NEW FAGINS ARE BRINGING CHILD SLAVERY TO BRITAIN - Sunday Telegraph 4/6

Claim: The UK is likely to surge up the league of favoured destinations for trafficked women and children once Romania and Bulgaria join the EU next year.
Reality: The US State Department recently welcomed Bulgarian efforts to crack down on trafficking, offering witnesses protection and allowing suspects to be extradited to stand trial abroad. The number of trafficking convictions in Bulgarian courts increased nearly fivefold in 2005 - up to 34.

* NHS AND SCHOOLS 'AT RISK FROM SURGE IN EU IMMIGRANTS' - The Times 31/07

Claim: A leaked government report warned that schools and hospitals will struggle to cope with an influx of people from eastern Europe.
Reality: Immigrants make up 8 per cent of the workforce but contribute 10 per cent of the UK's GDP. Ernst & Young reports they are net tax contributors - rather than a burden - to the public purse, easing the pensions bill through tax and keeping interest rates at least 0.5 per cent lower - equivalent to 拢500 a year on the average mortgage.

* IMMIGRANTS TO FLOOD IN - Daily Star 24/07

Claim: Britain will be swamped by up to 145,000 poverty-stricken migrants from Bulgaria and Romania who are expected to flock here once they join the EU.
Reality: Think-tank the IPPR estimates 56,000 will arrive from both countries in the first year - 41,000 of them from Romania. A Bulgarian government survey revealed only 2.9 per cent of its nationals planned to migrate.

Angelina,

Post 93

Not so tolerant Holland? Hated because you are Dutch?

LOL

You must be making this up as Holland is world famous for its liberal openness! Okay they have tightened up on immigration recently e.g. insisting that new immigrants learn to speak Dutch (how fascist of them) but this was some time after you say you came to live in the UK.

I'm sorry but the only British person who hates the Dutch is Austin Powers Father: "There's only two things I hate in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures...and the Dutch."

A very dubious post.

ive read some of the posts by so people claiming to be poles and say maybe the british are too lazy to take on the jobs....nonsense, ive worked since i was 15 yrs old, i'm now 30, i worked as a milkman, welder, oil industry, pharmaceutical industry, labourer,i also served in the army and now at college doing my hnd in computer science. to say us british are too lazy is complete rubbish.

the reason the jobs are empty is because of the cost of living here and the immigrants are being used as nothing but slave labour, not to mention the indigenoous people of the british isles are expected to embrace their cultures and traditions at the same time we are confronted by segregated areas which are generally no go areas if you dont "belong" and the other ethnic groups shun our culture and traditions and make no attempt to "blend in".

it's a grim outlook for the uk to say the least

The government have been telling us that there is a shortage of skilled labour, so why have they cut the funding to the construction industry training board by 50%? Is it because the recent influx of eastern european immigrants has filled that shortage. So what are our youngsters to do who have taken college courses in the construction trades only to find there are now no jobs for them. Don't tell me the immigrants are not taking away the future job prospects of our youngsters-disgruntled father of a 17 year old unemployed construction trainee.

James Fairbanks; Posting 89: There was nothing confusing about the immigrant information on Newsnight. As I read it, Britain should keep out skilled Poles, so that they are not tempted by the huge - and they are huge - differences in the wages that unskilled labour gets in Britain and the former Soviet bloc. It is terrible that people make use of the education system in, say, Poland, then give all their skills to another country, letting down the country that paid for their education.

*

And Magda, the Proud Pole (Posting 90), is one of maybe millions of Poles that have emigrated over the past 150 years or so to France, Britain, North America, and elsewhere. Personally, I sympathise with the flight; my ex-girlfriend from 25 years ago moved to the USA while the Commies were still running Poland.

However, and it's a big "however", isn't it time that Poland sorted itself out and got a government that can run the country? Every Polish government seems to be a shambles, so that once again, for the umpteenth time, the clever Poles are running away, leaving those who are not quick enough behind. Commuting across Europe ruins family life.

What Poland needs is Western investment; but if the West doesn't trust successive governments, this will remain limited.

*

Britain is getting two types of East European: 1) Highly skilled people who are desperately needed back home but can't stand the misery, corruption and chaos any more; they end up in slave labour (let's call a spade a spade) 2) Criminals who know that the Brits are: soft on identity papers, lax on immigration, incapable of telling one nationality from another by language, even corrupt in some instances. "Everybody" speaks English, so why bother with the Netherlands, Belgium, etc? Just one more bit of water, and you're in paradise.

*

Angelina, Posting 95, is going through what my mother no doubt did when she came to Britain in around 1950. Plus 莽a change. Having grown up with a Dutch mum in Yorkshire in the 1950s and 1960s, I know that David Brown (Posting 107) lacks experience in this quarter.

The Netherlands (aka Holland) is NOT that tolerant. I live there, and speak fluent Dutch, so I know. There is a thin veneer of tolerance, and in the big cities, you can let it all hang out, go to brothels, smoke pot, do your own thing. But when things get tough, the Dutch revert to the old Calvinist griping about their neighbours. And now many Dutch people are rapidly becoming Islamophobic, owing to the events of the past few years. And look how they stabbed the excellent Ayaan Hirsi Ali, one of the best politicians in the Netherlands, in the back.

The Dutch have not always been such a squeaky clean, tolerant nation. Remember that 7% of the Dutch voted for the Nazis in 1935, and that 22,000 Dutchmen volunteered (sic!) for the SS in about 1942-43. The same SS as G眉nter Grass is getting all the trouble about. Just because you can smoke pot in Amsterdam freely, does not mean that the Dutch can't be both as generous, or as petty, as many of the surrounding nations.

*

Multiculturalism. I don't believe that a country where there are many ethnic groups that have the minimum of contact is multicultural. True multiculturalism would mean people moving easily with the habits, customs, cuisine, religion, languages, and so on of several, often very different, ethnic groups. Does this actually happen anywhere, or is this a convenient myth? Just because we eat Indian food and drink the odd Belgian pint, doesn't make us multicultural. I get the feeling that a lot of what is called multiculturalism is a "live and let live" attitude - but that people don't have any deeper insights into surrounding cultures.

And: do you need a "Leitkultur" (if you don't know what it means, look it up on Google)?

The 'immigration question' has two answers:

1. ALL BRITONS ARE IMMIGRANTS: only 5 thousand years ago the British Isles had only about 3,000 inhabitants - not sure what proportion of current UK population still carries their genes.

2. If we do not want Eastern and Central European people coming and working in the UK (and the rest of the EU), why did the EU allowed 10 new member states to join in the first place? TO BE ABLE TO COMPETE WITH THE US AND CHINA - GOOD FOR THE ECONOMY.

Mumin: all Britons are immigrants (except the Celtic minority who were pushed to the western rim of British Isles by Germanic tribes). But that was centuries, sometimes millennia ago.

I repeat: the EU is a club (anno 2006) which should spread out the investment, the population, and so on across all 25 countries. It is insane for every new EU Member State to wait for the green light to allow many of its mesmerised population to go rushing, lemming-like, off to the paradise in the West, on the strength of "rags to riches" tales. And not only the West in general, but a handful of mostly northern European countries in particular.

The brain drain is getting serious. And from what I read in the papers (e.g. my Dutch daily just this morning) people are moving over from the chaotically governed states of Eastern and Central Europe. They are running away from a national problem (e.g. the Kaczynski Twins), to become low-status, underpaid immigrants in a country that doesn't want their skills, culture, language, etc., but just wants them to clean the lavatories, work in the sausage kiosks and do all the menial and boring jobs that the indigenous population are to idle, proud or fastidious to do.

This will ultimately breed resentment on both sides. The indigenous population will moan about the loss of jobs (while often enjoying social security or other benefits). The immigrants will moan about being discriminated against.

Why on Earth immigrants find Britain so attractive I cannot tell. I think they see, in their mind's eye, a mythical England full of jolly nice people, semis with dahlias in the gardens and an easygoing pub life. But in real life they end up living in substandard accommodation in depressing suburbs of huge cities. It takes a generation or two to climb out of that pit. Meanwhile, they lose their bonds with their country of birth and become rootless.

I think that Britain should also give those immigrants that it has already got a chance to integrate - and start forcing them to do so. While forcing the rest to wait outside the door for a while longer. If immigrants never meet people except other immigrants in their daily lives, there is little hope they will integrate into a British way of life. This is especially true now that immigrants from beyond Europe are arriving in such large numbers. Ghettos form, and such phenomena cause paranoia and prejudice.

Ruth Kelly, with her pale lipstick and new hairdo is a bit of a Vicar of Bray (rather than Dibley). As soon as New Labour senses that the tide has turned and that the average Brit is fed up of immigrants, the holier than holy policy of multiculturalism is thrown out of the window in a gesture to populism.

To Simon

Dear Simon,
Imagine, that there are other ways to secure your funding than working more than 20 hours a week. I had this great luck that have friends, thanks to whom I could get very cheap fligths back home to study, and yes I was here on student visa - studying English here - May I remain you that to get student visa you needed to study 3 hours a day for five days a week. - Hm that is 15hrs a week, plus 20 hours at work - you still have plenty time for yourself. As to my wages- hm where did you get 拢100 for 20 hours from??? I was lucky enough to get pay 拢6.5 an hour and quite nice tips, so every week got around 拢180. And I know that this may be very very big surprise for you mate! But you can live on this budget - its tight but you will sruvive, by taking bus instead of tube - student travel card was relatively cheap, and shopping in Iceland rather than Waitrose.

So yes I was here on student visa two years, but not I was not doing anything illegal. Please try to be a bit more creative and do not categorise everyone to your imaginatory picture you may have in your head.

Another comment regarding our right wing government, and anti gay and anti Jewish behaviour...
Did you ever think, that although we have such government, we may not agree with their policies????

Quite frankly I am gay and that is one of reasons why I am still here !!!
Enjoy your Bank Holiday Weekend

Mass Immigration & Multiculturalism - Buy Now Pay Later

Heard all about the short term economic benefits of mass immigration from the likes of Digby Jones, such as people getting slightly cheaper mortgages, but as my mother always used to tell me, 鈥渢here鈥檚 more to life than just money鈥� and 鈥渢here are some things that money can鈥檛 buy鈥� (ie a united cohesive society).

Mass immigration gives you the instant gratification of a ready made work force on the cheap, just like those instant ready made microwave meals. Rather than spending lots of time and effort toiling over the stove and preparing a proper meal, or spending lots of time and effort properly educating British children and giving them realistic expectations for life, you can get the instant gratification of a microwave meal or masses of cheap migrant labour in much less time and for less money. But as we all know, those instant ready made microwave meals come with their draw backs, such as high salt and fat content. If you were to eat them all the time instead of a properly cooked meal which takes more effort and longer to prepare, your health would suffer in the long term. So if Britain were a person and the cheap ready made microwave meals were the masses of instant ready made cheap immigrant workers, what would happen to Britain鈥檚 long term health if it continued to gorge itself on them?

It reminds me of the buy now pay later mindset that has proliferated in the British consumer. Rather than save up for that expensive material product, why not just get a loan, buy it now and worry about paying for it later on? In the olden days of the 50鈥檚 and 60鈥檚, Britain got itself the instant gratification of a Buy Now Pay Later cheap immigrant workforce from places like Pakistan, India and Jamaica, who moved into industries like textiles in the North. But when the textile industry died out, Britain would still have to keep making the interest repayments on this instantly available cheap workforce for a long time to come. Only now, 40-50 years after we gorged ourselves on the instant gratification of that cheap immigrant labour, are we really starting to feel the effects. Now we have entered the 鈥淧ay Later鈥� phase.

Those interest repayments have manifested themselves in the form of a more diverse multicultural society. A society no longer united in its race and religion. A more tribal society, which is more fragmented, more divided and less cohesive. Now, there are differences where there were no differences before. These differences inevitably lead on to differences of opinion, then, according to the laws of human nature, differences of opinion may eventually lead to conflict. Conflict may be averted by finding common ground between the opposing sides, but in the increasingly diverse modern Britain, there is less and less common ground to be found. Small-scale conflict has erupted with the race riots in Birmingham 2005 and with the London bombings; it would seem that the interest repayments from the instant Buy Now Pay Later workforce of the 50鈥檚 and 60鈥檚, are getting more difficult to pay.

The present government has decided to get itself another Buy Now Pay Later cheap immigrant workforce, not just from Eastern Europe but from all four corners of the world. If we are only just beginning to feel the full effects from the last round of a Buy Now Pay Later workforce from 50 years ago, what will Britain be like in another 50 years time? The government say it will be different this time around, that the Eastern Europeans will be easier to integrate due to them being white and Christian.

I鈥檓 already starting to see Polish woman walking round with prams and pushchairs. Their children will grow up in Britain, go through the British education system, and if the government is right, they will be well integrated. But if they become just like the British children we have raised, then they won鈥檛 want to do the low paid jobs either, so yet another generation of mass immigration will be needed, which in turn will integrate, grow older, require a pension and turn its nose up at the low paid jobs and hence the cycle will continue indefinitely. If there were an unlimited amount of land and resources available, this wouldn鈥檛 be a problem, but the thing is, we live on a tiny insignificant little island called Britain. An island which is one of the most densely populated countries in the world and where the valuable resources are strictly limited. This cycle of mass immigration is unsustainable and as the resources continue to dwindle, not only will quality of life suffer; the threat of conflict will increase.

Due to global warming, sustainability is beginning to prey on all our minds. Perhaps the current government should take a more long term view and think about sustainability and quality of life, two things that mass immigration and multiculturalism cannot offer in the long term. You only have to look at America, the most unsustainable country in the world, to know that.

To Ray Scott

I don麓t think it麓s fair that your wife麓s relatives should be denied access, this must be heartbreaking for her.

I respect that you have come to your decision through a lot of experience, it麓s different to mine.

What I really hate is that people are failing to see the human aspect of this. These are PEOPLE they are not statistics
or fuel for our economy or something useful us. The poles especially are very good technically and I麓m sure the vast majority are nice people. Exactly the same was said about assylum seekers last year and their need is even greater. We are always stereotyping in England, and as you can see the article above most of what the papers say is sheer anti-foreign scaremongering and racist. That is why I was trying to tell my story.

I麓m sorry about your wife麓s relatives too.

...And when I see images of Nick Griffen of the BNP being surrounded and greeted by supporters waving English Flags and him cuddling up to them like the queen on a royal walkabout after having his accusations quashed in an english court,
I can only imagine what damage the tabloids are doing to the fabric of our society with all this scaremongering.

As someone who loves Poland and is fascinated by their culture, I am horrified that they are again having to flee their country en masse because the government is useless at keeping them there.

So I applaud most of what Alienated has said. Mass immigration, coupled with the fantasy of multiculturalism, create seeds of discontent and restive behaviour.

I repeat from my last posting: it is madness for former Soviet bloc people to flee over here, leaving their country to fend for itself - or live, in effect, on the handouts of those earning money abroad.

No British politician dares ban, stop, curtail or limit anything any more. When the riots come, there will be endless agonising about "why didn't we see this coming?". They saw it alright, but were too weak to act.

I have joined the London diaspora , moving to Cambridgeshire from where I grew up in NW London, it was such a lovely feeling to move somewhere where people still smile at one another, are friendly, and share the same culture, and even keep their gardens tidy. I feel so much more relaxed, as there is no need to worry about offending anyone.

That said, last week the market green grocer stall had been taken over or manned by assistants that hardly spoke English, the Citizen Advice Bureaux is advertising for Portuguese and Polish speakers, the local church is gearing itself up to attract and welcome the newbies. Soon I feel that there will be no where left that is English. The Polish might be able to go home when they get tired or rich, but where do the English go if they want to live in an English England now ? 60 miles out of London may not be far enough anymore.

Why should UK be responsible for taking in new EU immigrants? When ten countries joined EU in May 2004 UK opened their doors. Isn't it someone elses turn now? There are 25 countries in EU! So why everything's on UK's shoulders? When no one else wanted new EU members, UK took them, but how many more can they take? We all see what's happening! There's definitely too many immigrants in UK, so other countries: You didn't do it in 2004, so do it now!!!

Two points I'd like to make about Tuesday's prog.
1.There are plenty of people in this country living in serious poverty. We should solve our own problems first.
2. The Romanian ambassador indicated that Romanians have been disadvantaged by 50 years of Communism, and that we should give them a chance. Shouldn't they take that point up with the Russians? Why should the British Tax payer be expected to deal with it?
Anne Ross

POPULATION GROWTH

Between 1991 and 2001, half of Britain's population growth was due to immigration [1]

But there are other sources of population increases due to foreign nationals.

A. illegal immigrants 310,000 - 570,000 [2]

B. failed asylum seekers 250,000+ [3]

C. asylum seekers * 55,000 [3]

D. registered EU workers since 2004 expansion 375,000 [4]

D1. additional estimate worker arrivals to UK 187,000 [4]

* p.a. average last 10 years, 1994-2004, 88% of all cases were initially rejected in 2004, separate figures show about a fifth are won on appeal, rising to higher numbers among some nationalities.

Our borders, our controls? - surely - what do the public think?

"Q.7 Mori Poll" concerns of 'Race relations/immigration/immigrants' 2nd only to crime [5]

Or do some in pressure & single issue groups (ironically with multi agendas) expect the UK to do nothing?

And people wonder why we have a issue with social cohesion in this country.

Another failure of 'multiculturalism' that you could not readily discuss the above without knee jerk false accusation of 'racism'.

Yet what do we have happening, bigotry & racism by certain minorities communities to other communities & mainstream society.

Rather ironic :(

vikingar

SOURCES:

[1]
[2]
[3]
[4]
[5]

Ref Ozoda Muminova #112

"1. ALL BRITONS ARE IMMIGRANTS: only 5 thousand years ago the British Isles had only about 3,000 inhabitants - not sure what proportion of current UK population still carries their genes."

Correct Brits have been historically mongrels.

But we have also enjoyed a definable nation state for last 1000+ years.

In the age of mass migration via modern transportation, the determination of what cultural groups make up our society is our choice.

Its not down to:
- unelected pressure groups.
- the vested interests of 'right on' pressure groups from liberal left / left (with multi agendas)
- minority groups intent on transforming parts of the UK into foreign cultural enclaves.
- non elected bureaucrats in Euro land.
- gang masters
- criminals
- economic refugees.
- illegals in general.

Our country, Our limited resources, Our values, Our society.

People who complement British society (in manageable numbers) - welcome.

Those who pose a threat to social cohesion & undermine long term economic stability - not welcome (or tolerated)

Fanciful illiberal notions of 'Multiculturalism' enforced on British society is too blame.

However, the tempo of this discussion in mainstream society has belatedly changed - thank god.

vikingar

wow you people are actually posting you guys are nerds

Hugh Waldock p117 said 鈥�

鈥淲e are always stereotyping in England鈥�

You鈥檙e right about the stereotyping Hugh, only just a sentence before you made that claim, you made a sweeping generalisation about the Polish, saying: 鈥渢he poles especially are very good technically鈥�. Maybe you should stereotype the English as being hypocrites too!

Your sweeping generalisations about Brits p8
鈥淏ritish people have the reputation of being incredibly arrogant, ill brought up* and hedonistic鈥�

*my apologies that we鈥檙e not all privileged enough to have an expensive private education like yours.

Your stereotyping of Turks p79
鈥淭urkish people are particularly social鈥�

Your negative stereotyping of East Anglia p51
鈥淚t is the most selfish inward backward looking part of the country鈥�

Hugh also said:
鈥淭hese are PEOPLE they are not statistics or fuel for our economy or something useful us.鈥�

Really? Try telling that to 91热爆 news, whenever they do a story on immigration, they always seem to get Evan Davies, the ECONOMICS editor to do it. They only ever seem to portray all this immigration in economic terms. Economics is the only valid justification they can give for all the social carnage that mass displacement of people causes, in the same way that economics was the only valid justification for slavery 200 years ago. But as I said in my post above, short-term economics is only one part of the mass immigration story and there鈥檚 more to life than just economics. (although I鈥檓 sure Evan Davies would beg to differ)

Hugh Waldock p118 said 鈥�

鈥淚 can only imagine what damage the tabloids are doing to the fabric of our society with all this scaremongering.鈥�

It is not the tabloids that are tearing apart the fabric of society, it is mass immigration and the resulting multiculturalism that is. Seeing as you鈥檙e 鈥榠nside鈥� the Labour party, it鈥檚 understandable that you will try to blame everyone else apart from your own party for their/your wrong doings. The British public aren鈥檛 stupid; we don鈥檛 need the tabloids to tell us that Britain is experiencing the biggest wave of mass immigration in all history. All we need to do is walk down any high street in the land and listen to the huge numbers of foreigners walking around not speaking English. We can see what鈥檚 going on with our own eyes! Maybe if you were to come down from your privately educated ivory tower in Germany to ground zero here in Britain, where you have to compete with all these people for the limited resources, you would know that.

Hi,
I just wanted to say that the rules for immigration here baffle me.Im a canadian citizan with a british partner and british children but i cannot stay here leaglly.I see people from all over the world staying here without problems.i am a direct decendent of british people i have traced my family back to 1011 in england.but because its not my grand parents but my great great grandparents and every generation before that that comes from england i cannot stay by right to abode.they are going to make me leave and rip my family apart.english are being treated as second class citizans here now and it is so sad.does my daughters diserve to have their mum taken away?no!!!just a few weeks ago they let go over 400 asylum seekers because they started a riot,is that fair?no!!i thought they were there because they were not allowed in the country.they have more rights then a commonwealth citizan.and now im struggling with getting help.if anyone knows anything that may help me it would be much appriciated
jennifer

I am an immigrant and I work very hard for this country's benefit. I blame the right-wing tabloid trash for using a young 17-year old male like me as an adequate scapegoat for the prejudiced few who believe that they deserve jobs just because they are natives. Obviously the right-wing cannot cope with meritocracy and need to have their whinge about it. It is actually the right-wing (National Front, BNP, Islamofascist Extremists, Al-Muhajiroun, etc) who have created many of the problems in this country. They favour divisiveness and breed only on hatred and contempt. The left-wing are morally superior because they advocate conciliation and tolerance and minimal harm to everyone. I loathe the people who scrounge of the dole when immigrants like me actually bother to do this country a service. Often, extreme right-wing parties try to use this lazy slobs as support. But hang on...if these few lazy natives who have no respect for their own country have no intention of going out to work, how does that compliment the extreme-right wing ideology of native British people being morally and intellectually superior to what they describe as 'wog-like' immigrant trash. Surely these lazy slobs would actually be at work if the right-wing were for once telling the truth, instead of making up lies to achieve their amoral political ambitions ? Immigration is natural, and colonialism is inevitably a reason for it. If the British government hadn't bothered establishing colonies around the world and growing rich from their natural resources, immigration to this country would be much lower. Unfortunately, some British people may be paying the price for their rather foolish forefathers, but it is natural for a man to immigrate to where the wealth is and no amount of wall-building is likely to stop it. Whilst the right-wing preach glorification of the brutality of colonialism, they rather paradoxically refuse to acknowledge that immigration happens as a result of it. Instead they seem to have this wierdly concoted idea of a Zionist conspiracy of inferior races taking over Britain. This is the usual typical Nazist, anti-Semitic trash they come out with, and some extreme right-wing papers such as the NF's flame want to claim that this is the fundamental problem, and not the fact that Britain has an ageing population and requires immigration in order to provide for those large number of elderly people who will have to be sustained. As usual the right-wing seem unable to interpret the potential consequences of this demographic transition, but only want to highlight certain groups for unscathing criticism. I hope the right-wing learn some lessons from this diatribe I have uttered against them, and I hope that people respect that immigration would sort out many of the ills in Britain provide we all abide by meritocracy, and not the bigoted form of justice demanded by perverts such as Islamofacists relgious extremists and racial supremacists such as the National Front. All being well, liberatlism will triumph...

Vikingar -

Celtic Europe - a vast decentralised trading network. Roman Europe a centralised exploitative state. Slow Food a re-invasion of our culture?

England in the 'Dark Ages' now recognised as a time of Anglo-Saxon domesticity and peace during which time Latin was preserved and syncopation was invented (now the basis of most music because it is more enjoyable to listen to).

Blood of the Vikings - - From what I remember of the programme, there is a statistical difference in DNA traits between north and south England and some evidence that male Vikings came to Britain and took British (Celtic?) women to Iceland and Greenland.

Heraldry in my family is Anglo-Saxon derived; in my children's father's family is mostly Norman. Interesting programme about the Battle of Hastings not so long ago asserted that Normans (i.e. Norse men who settled in France/Gaul) were 'butch' and shaved-headed whilst Anglo-Saxons were less butch, long haired and 'moustachioed' - same divide in my family - coincidence?

Normans started the Templars. Templars started freemasonry. Freemasonry is the basis of the theory of the Illuminati, the Annunaki and the alien lizard race.

Gramsci? Of course Gramsci. Sick and incarcerated he made more sense than the current political class.

Discovery Channel - more educational than all the state schools in the UK put together - having been to an independent school myself but believing in the ideology of free education for all I can honestly say that sending my own children to state schools was the biggest mistake of my life. Bureaucracy-obsessed, 'jobsworth' teachers and leaking buildings. 'Laboratories' that look like the kitchen of an OCD housewife - no wonder nobody is interested in science, my old lab was a wonderland of formalin and weird contraptions - seriously wonder if there is a deliberate attempt to stop the service class receiving education at all. No consideration of oral vs. written cultures, manual vs. cerebral skills, environmental (ANS) vs. intellectual (CNS) intelligence. Most academics I have met are in any case not very interesting or particularly 'clever'. Parent-Teacher contract is a means to enrol parents under the (moral) authority of teachers as well as their children. Both my children are planning to leave Britain - family broken apart by the PC generation - which I was part of but never agreed with positive discrimination simply because it is too difficult to implement without achieving the opposite effect and friends abandoned me because I allowed my sons to squirt water pistols - but hanging out at Greenham Common was fun for while - wish I'd kept the sticker on my leather jacket, could probably sell for a fortune on e-Bay!!

Happy Xmas.

Migration is the big issue as far as myself and all of my family are concerned. Even with my 15 year old daughter, and I was surprised she noticed over her short lifetime.
Migration Watch UK (Sir Andrew Green)put the reasons calmly and coherently and they are the only people I really listen to these days as I have no time for the politicians these days (any of them).
All of the arguments pro-immigration do not wash with me, even the economic argument. You may dismiss me as too trad. and true, I am more interested in green space, tweety birds and a slightly quieter Sunday than the availability of Kebabs at 2 in the morning. My town of Preston has become a foreign country. The terrorist threat and muslim veils only heighten my dislike. The government has much to answer for, as their lax border control will generate bloodshed in future. I am pleased that the 91热爆 acknowledges they have been closed to real peoples worries over immigration as they have been steered by the Polly Toynbees into promoting the multicultural hellhole we find ourselves.
We always lose the peace.

All i'll say is when are the goverment going to get guts to fallow austrailia and the us and stop imagration altogether. bring back visas.if not britain might aswell be re named because year after year britain is becoming less british. i am apart of a genertion that is growing up with no culture stance due to constant pressure from others. i walk around my town in west yorkshire and feel intimidated, knowing that i am the minority i have no future in this country. Lets sort out our problems before sorting others. no houses, no jobs, no cultural identification.

Having read through these comments it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that the stress and tension of migration is showing through the British public. And rightly so. I had my 5 year old daughter at 17 and (After college) I have worked full-time since she was a year old, now juggling a full time position of work and university 2 evenings a week I find it more and more disheartening that despite all my efforts any hope of getting on the property ladder is squashed by the basic rule of economics- supply and demand. My saving grace is my supportive parents - I still live at home (Like thousands more priced out).

Of course migrants are not the only contributing factor to this dire situation and they are certainly not to blame. We as a country have to consider changing cultures towards issues such as marraige and separation - the expense of living in this country. The expense not only causes strain on already established relationships but it also deterrs people from marraige and encourages seperation. This in turn does not help the supply of housing to include many other destructive factors to the supply of the housing market.

When our government is offering 'free housing'and child benefit for children back home, the 'right to buy' grants, etc who can blame these people for flowing into our country? Its a no brainer. Im sure some of us opportunist brits would do the same if we had the chance!

What really does annoy me though is that as a single (Teenage) mother I could have written myself off to a life of riley on the 'taxpayer'. Instead I got back on my feet and 'got on with it'. So how can grown able men sit at home all day at the taxpayers expense? (That includes british ppl as well) Apparently migrant workers are told 'The longer you work in this country the more you are entitled to!' Well from our side of the fence that is certainly not the case, I would suggest the longer you work here the more you get taxed!! (Ask any pensioner)

If I was to immigrate I certainly would not expect access to state funds and a house handed to me, I know it would be hard graft all the way.

I really do believe the British public would be more welcoming and accomodating to migrants if they (The British public) were treated with the same compassion as immigrants by our own government but it seems we're kept out in the cold in this very biased community. I am a regular reader of the sun and although you shouldn't believe everything you read there have been some appaulling stories reported that have not been defended or justified by our government.

I really could rant on forever giving specific incidents (State benefits, crime, strain on public services and the soldier who was refused by that BP garage!)

I do find it very disturbing when majority of my friends state they will be voting BNP next election. I do not know enough about the BNP party to comment however I do understand they are an extremely controversial group and are beginning to hold a certain appeal to the young british public. Maybe its about time our government re-thought their strategies and started using a bit of common sense.

/blogs/newsnight/2007/10/friday_26th_october_2007.html

A little more context on the critical variable of low indigenous birthrates and the easily overlooked dire long term consequences for the economy/infrasrtructure.

If one takes the long term view, more females have had to go out to work, ironically because of low TFRs, but this surely just serves to further lower birth-rates?

Whilst immigration has been increased to compensate for low TFRs, this further fragments communities, which feeds back into the instability of society and then the birth rate. That is, it has all the elements of a chaotic, dynamical system does it not? Such systems are unpredictable and rather hard to manage as a consequence. No wonder government agencies have problems with their statistics (although I reckon dysgenesis contributes even here I fear). It takes a long time to build a stable infrastruture (nation), but not long to teaqr it all down.

The following is from the British Embassy, Warsaw. Presumably the message in the embassies in the other 25 EU states is little different?

"Polish citizens do not require a visa to go to the UK for any purpose and they can study, work and visit the UK without entry clearance. Poles can travel to the UK with a valid passport or ID (new or old type)."

and to quote one 91热爆 report:

"Polish Radio London said there could be 700,000 people eligible to vote in the London area alone."

So, taking just Poland, and bearing in mind the UK government has a hard time counting because of the absence of any border controls (it has to rely on samples and figures of registration for work etc), given the 850,000 figure remarked upon on the 27th (see first link), if there are indeed 850,000 Poles in the UK (if 700,000 in London are eligible to vote, that makes them working age), given that there are 25 other EU states, if the UK took the same 2% which it takes from Poland, from each of the other 9 ex Warsaw Pact countries now in the EU, the total in the UK would be 2 million surely, so is that 1.1m yet another underestimate?

If the numbers are not workers, what are they, are many of them students? We've been told in some places that most Polish workers (70%) are 'graduates' though in low skilled jobs (were they anticipating the points system?) or does Poland like us send over 40% of its population to university?

Otherwise, how can there be 700,000 Poles in London eligible to vote in
the recent Polish election, and yet only half of the 1.1 million foreign
workers be from EU states? (An entire UK single age band cohort is only about 600,000, and under half of that goes to university each year).

What about workers/students from the other 9 East European states? Are
there limits on the other 7 which are not Romania and Bulgaria? The
other 7 states have a combined population of 32.8m and if they send 2% (like Poland's figure) that would potentially contribute another 640,000 on top of the 850,000 Poles would it not (and that's not counting the restricted number of Romanians and Bulgarians)? Ex all good socialists, they'll surely make good New Labour voters if they ever take UK citizenship.

And why the focus on just Poland, as all of the other East European states (bar Romania and Bulgaria) joined in 2004 along with Poland. And why is the government figure cited as an increase since 1997 an increase over what precisely, is there a brain-drain of Britons?

The figures do not appear to cover any workers from the other 16 EU states either (i.e about 324.4 million in total). What if two or even one percent of those come to work here?

If the other EU states contributed the same (i.e just 2%, which they probably won't, but let's just try it for size anyway) - that would contribute yet another 6.5 million on top of the 2 million would it not?

This doesn't touch African or S Asian immigration (or their higher TFRs), or the fact that much of the non European immigration stays in London and the SE.

So, just how reliable is Caroline Flint's and Jacquie Smith's 300,000 undercount and how reliable is that 1.1 million really likely to be? Poland keeps being mentioned because it has the largest population of the East European states at 38m, but Romania is 21.6m the Czech and Slovakian republics add up to 15.7m, and the rest about another 27m).

UK Workforce figures:

We have a population of about 37.5m aged 16-59/64 and the employment rate in this group is stated to be about 74.5%. That gives 27.8 million in employment (15.3 million of whom are men). How many of those are EU workers and how many S Asians and Africans (albeit British nationals), and how many illegals are there? Bearing in mind that 2 million above, and that being increased by a figure (though probably a lot less than the above estimated 2% from non East European EU states which gave that high of a further 6.5m?) just factor in African and S Asian immigration and the latter's considerably higher birth rates and consider that the Lord Mayor's office demographers project that 99.9% of London's population growth over the few decades will be in BME groups.

Take all that on board for London, where something like 75% of the Local Authorities have school aged population in the 7 year old band at under 50% White British, and you start to see the bigger picture. Also bear in mind the critically low TFRs in East Europe and that with a TFR of 1.1 a population halves in 30 years, and ages. Who supports them as they age and need health services?

Finally, given that Britons tend not to speak East European languages (or many others for that matter), there's a major disadvantage here for Britons is there not? What's the likelihood of the more verbally able sector of the UK population taking flight, and how *can* the UK implement a 'points system' for EU citizens, surely the Fundamental Charter of Human Rights (central to the EU Reform Treaty) proscribes this under many of its articles? We may have our immigration laws, but won't these be challenged in the EU court? Mr Frattini, after all, wants a further 20m from Africa and S Asia and I've already asked whether that brain-drain can be good for Africa.

Many Service Sector jobs today require people (oddly, they seem to be mainly females) to push buttons or swipe products. Anarcho-capitalists (who keep referring to as 'Trotskyites') certainly press the merits of cheap labour and de-regulation. What they don't appear to care much about are nations, people and infrastructure (except perhaps in terms of money pumps and consumers). Internationalists have no loyalities.

If I am wrong, I'd like those engineering all this to reassure those of us who are concerned. London schools in particular appear to be under great strain. Are pupils counted in any of these figures, as the numbers seem to be based on working age counts?

Some comments here are worth noting.

So, the key question is: How can there be 700,000 Poles in London alone who are eligible to vote in the Polish elections if only half of the 1.1 million foreign workers are from outside the EU as is asserted here?

There are 26 other EU states, and whilst Poland (38.1m) is the largest ex-Warsaw Pact, East European state, but there are 9 others apart from Poland (Estonia 1.3m, Latvia 2.3m, Lithuania 3.4m, Czech Rep. 10.3m, Slovakia 5.4m, Hungary 10.1m, Slovenia, 2m, Romania 21.6m, Bulgaria 7.7m).

Then there are:

Ireland 4.2m, Portugal 10.6m, Spain 43.8m, France 60.9m, Belgium 10.5m Germany 82.m, Italy 58.8m, Greece 11.1m, Austria 8.3m, Denmark 5.4m Holland 16.3m, Sweden 9m, Finland 5.3m, and then Malta, Cyprus, Luxemburg 1.7m together....

Link to the 2004-June 2007 Accession Monitoring Report.

Table 3 shows the WRS figures for approved workers.

Presumably, Bulgarians and Romanians just won't apply as they won't be approved, but that won't necessarily mean that they won't be in the workforce. The column to the end of the second quarter of 2007 gives about 430,000 Poles, which is about half the number of Poles mentioned in some places. Does that mean that the June estimates should be doubled? As the June offial cumulative total would be 656,390 and doubling that would be 1,312,780. My 2% rule of thumb would give 1,506,000 and if we included 2% of the Romanians and Bulgarians, that would take it to over 2 million.

850,000 Poles would actually be about 2.3% of Poles, so my estimates are low. Of course, this is all guess work.

I am polish yeo

Im an very proud English man, who suports Queen & Country,. When Mr Blair opend up this lovely country to the world, did Mr Yogy Bear concider the strain, that all thease immagrants would have on the Police, Abulance Service, the Fire Service, the Education Schools, The NHS, Local Councils, & I would like to bet, that Mr Blair and his off spring have not got any immigrants has his neighbours,. God bless Lord Enock Powell, I will be voting for the BNP, its time we took a stand I want my country back, I feel ive been invaded

Or was united kingdom,well im 32 years of age and been through the mill a little.i have three children of mixed race african im white english.i think my nan would turn in her grave now to what is happening in this country these people do not speak english unless their wages are wroung then they understand.they segregate into little converted houses letting no one even police into their little worlds.i see no english man is happy in their castle anymore white hoddie yobs get blamed for crime yes a white man will be stopped by police this is les hassel if it was an asian man he would be left to play the race card well i think its time we played the race card in our own country. the goverment dont care as they live in their morgage free houses in plush areas where their is no mixed race communites i think we need to stand up more for this country and not let it pass us by. older people are off to australia see what they do their ?

I really love my country, i've served it and i do my best to be a good citizen, but we need to start being realistic, we cant take any more immagrants we need to rediscover our country's heritage we need to teach our children our history first, this is a Christian , free country and that freedom has been bought and paid for in blood and sacrifice, we have many diverse cultures in this country and lets face it there here to stay, fine a little bit of diversity is always healthy, but these others cultures need to be British first, they cant expect us to change our culture, i'm sick of being beaten around the head with a PC stick every time some says anything against immagrants, its simple we need to protect our culture now, we need to wake up and realise that this is an island and we just cant take any more people regardless of were their from or what religion they practice, its a simple case of logistics?!

bari ... speaking on dateline london declared that becuase muslims live in britain therefore they have a right to sharia law if they want it.

that is the attitude that multiculturalism spread - foreign cultures demand their every needs are met by britain and this is reinforced daily through liberal policies such as translation services and all forms of positive discrimination

there are two types of immigrant now. those who naturalised and now enjoy the comfort that is english britishness and those who call themselves british but oppose all things truly british as part of some identity movement